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UK diy (uk.d-i-y) For the discussion of all topics related to diy (do-it-yourself) in the UK. All levels of experience and proficency are welcome to join in to ask questions or offer solutions. |
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#81
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
NY wrote:
Why is it that diesel engines and fuel cells have more of a problem with NOx than petrol engines? Is it because diesel engines are very lean burn (they use far more oxygen than is required to burn the fuel), whereas petrol is stoichiometric (ie perfect petrol:air ratio)? Fuel cells don't emit NOx. It's only when you burn Hydrogen in a traditional IC engine you get NOx. -- Steve H |
#82
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
"NY" wrote in message
... "The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message news And used in an IC [hydrogen} is no better than diesel at NOX emissions You would be better off making synthetic diesel. Does most of the nitrogen in diesel NOx emissions come from the nitrogen in the atmosphere? I'd always thought it came from the diesel fuel. Evidently not. Why is it that diesel engines and fuel cells have more of a problem with NOx than petrol engines? Is it because diesel engines are very lean burn (they use far more oxygen than is required to burn the fuel), whereas petrol is stoichiometric (ie perfect petrol:air ratio)? Apologies: in the second paragraph I meant to say "diesel engines and hydrogen IC engines". I misunderstood what the the OP was, then re-read it and corrected myself in one place but not in the other... |
#83
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Nick Finnigan wrote:
[...] Nobody has to be in attendance at a petrol / diesel station. When was the law changed regarding that then? It was always a legal requirement that an attendant had to be present, and have full view of filling operations, at all times. Chris -- Remove prejudice to reply. |
#84
Posted to uk.rec.cars.maintenance,uk.d-i-y
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
"Chris Whelan" wrote in message
... Nick Finnigan wrote: [...] Nobody has to be in attendance at a petrol / diesel station. When was the law changed regarding that then? It was always a legal requirement that an attendant had to be present, and have full view of filling operations, at all times. There are plenty of filling stations (eg the one at the Asda near me) which are open 24/7 as long as you use pay-at-pump, but are only staffed during daylight hours. Maybe they are monitored remotely by CCTV when the payment booths are unstaffed. |
#85
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
NY wrote:
There are plenty of filling stations (eg the one at the Asda near me) which are open 24/7 as long as you use pay-at-pump, but are only staffed during daylight hours. Maybe they are monitored remotely by CCTV when the payment booths are unstaffed. They are. The security guard in the main building usually has a monitoring station for the filling station. Some fuel companies have been investigating remote CCTV coverage for unmanned stations - but UK petroleum officers aren't keen on it. (Belgium is big on unmanned stations like this) -- Steve H |
#86
Posted to uk.rec.cars.maintenance,uk.d-i-y
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Chris Whelan wrote:
Nick Finnigan wrote: Nobody has to be in attendance at a petrol / diesel station. When was the law changed regarding that then? It was always a legal requirement that an attendant had to be present, and have full view of filling operations, at all times. There's certainly an asda here that is un-manned (no kiosk at all, I think it has to have remote CCTV coverage) and the pay-at-the-pump ones stay open after the kiosk is shut. |
#87
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30-Sep-17 11:30 AM, Steve H wrote:
NY wrote: There are plenty of filling stations (eg the one at the Asda near me) which are open 24/7 as long as you use pay-at-pump, but are only staffed during daylight hours. Maybe they are monitored remotely by CCTV when the payment booths are unstaffed. They are. The security guard in the main building usually has a monitoring station for the filling station. Some fuel companies have been investigating remote CCTV coverage for unmanned stations - but UK petroleum officers aren't keen on it. (Belgium is big on unmanned stations like this) I wasn't talking about the staff. UK regulations requires the driver holds the trigger on the pump nozzle for filling of Diesel and petrol. All latching devices (beloved by the fire prone gas guzzling USA car owners) had to be removed from the pumps for the public to safely use the pumps without a pump attendant. In the USA people goof off and then forget to remove the nozzle from the tank and drive off ripping the filler hose off the pump. Or they get a static charge and pull a spark igniting the fuel vapour that has been expelled from the open tank filler when they go to take the nozzle out. In the UK if you are not in attendance holding that trigger, stood out in a freezing gale, you don't get any fuel. You can plug an EV in and walk away or sit/nap in your nice warm dry car. You can even make phone calls, send/receive texts/e-mail or use the internet while charging. They will switch the pump off if they see you doing that while filling with petrol or Diesel. I wonder what people will do with 1/2 hour to kill when they get an EV RV. You can plug a FCV (fuel cell vehicle) in and walk away as that is a sealed filling system, locked on the filler port so is allowed to latch. |
#88
Posted to uk.rec.cars.maintenance,uk.d-i-y
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30-Sep-17 10:00 AM, MrCheerful wrote:
On 30/09/2017 09:40, Steve H wrote: MrCheerful wrote: On 29/09/2017 23:30, Steve H wrote: Hydrogen seems sensible - you can make it on site (yes, you need a big electric cable - but so does a forecourt of charging stations) - you can fill a lightweight kevlar / carbon tank in minutes and get 500 miles of driving with only water / steam as the tailpipe emmissions. It is only possible to store enough onsite for a couple of fills, and then takes several hours to make the next lot. So how many filling stations will be needed? The install can deliver to 30 cars per day. But it's scalable and is really at beta test stage. The ITM Hydrogen Refueling Station (HRS) being rolled out in the UK for public use does not serve 30 cars a day. It can serve 16 cars a day. They will have to install a larger or 2nd unit for 30 cars/day. A normal filling station at present serves 30 cars in thirty minutes, so it would have to ramp up a real lot. Would specialised staff be required to keep the filling process safe? Good site for a terrorist attack too. I would hazard a guess that hydrogen stations would not be permitted anywhere near housing.Â* I have only seen one and that was well in the countryside. More FUD. ITM HRS can only store about 15Kg of hydrogen so doesn't pose a big threat if blown up. About the same risk as 3 car petrol tanks. LPG filling stations with above ground tanks are a better target in terms of energy release. As it can only fill 3 cars back to back if you are 4th in line then you have to wait 24/16 = 1 1/2 hours for it to make a tank full of H2. A HRS with capacity for 30 cars/day is unlikely to store more H2 for safety reasons so the wait for 4th fill will be 24/30 = 48 min. There are less than 50 fuel cell cars in the UK and only idiots will be buying them at £60K a pop. The EV equivalent (OK with 1/2 the range but 1/2 price fuel) is around £30K. The ITM HRS is electrolytic and uses grid connected electricity to make the H2 on-site. So a 30 car/day station will put just as much load on the grid as an EV charger that can charge 30 cars/day. 20 tons H2/day needs 50 MW of power. That will need a large gas turbine all to itself. https://www.airqualitynews.com/2017/...ling-stations/ |
#89
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-29, Graham J wrote: [27 lines snipped] By contrast cooling from an air conditioning system isn't really necessary in the UK. I can only assume you've never owned an air conditioned car. I would never buy a car without it, having owned one. +1. Traffic conditions, at least here in the SE, mean spending long periods stationary or moving in queues very slowly. Even on a mild day, that's pretty unpleasant with no A/C. Chris -- Remove prejudice to reply. |
#90
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29-Sep-17 5:23 PM, NY wrote:
"Graham J" wrote in message news As an earlier poster commented: "we have not progressed an enormous amount" - and the limitation is battery technology. Irrespective of the battery technology you need to put in phenomenal amounts of electrical energy, which means dangerously high charging voltages or current that needs very thick cables - or a combination of the two. 500 kWhr delivered in 5 mins is 6 MW - how the hell do we solve the problem of delivering electrical energy at that rate That's why you need either a swappable pre-charged battery or else an on-board generator powered by an IC engine if you want to avoid the very long charging times. When electric cars can match my present car, which has a range of 700 miles on 60 litres of diesel, and I can replenish that 700 miles range in a few minutes, then pure-electric cars will be a viable alternative. Until then, you have to make sacrifices: - have two cars (petrol/diesel for long journeys, mainly avoiding congested town/city centres, and electric for shorter journeys into town) - use public transport for longer journeys and hire a car locally when you go on holiday for touring (this is not feasible if you want to take bikes or lots of luggage) - charge the car overnight or while you're at work, and live with the fact that you cannot travel more than 100 miles or so (on current technology) before you need to repeat this palaver. So you need a hybrid or else a car with a fuel cell - either way, to convert very "compact" energy of something like petrol/diesel or compressed gas (LPG, hydrogen) into motion (via electricity). I hope the government has correctly predicted the rate at which technology will progress in the next 20 years, or there is going to be a very ****ed-off population who have to accept a drastic reduction in standard of living (live closer to work or at least to public transport, no long holidays touring around). The fundamental issue with fuel cell technology is that there isn't a single dealer on the whole planet that can service the hydrogen fuel system and the fuel cell. Not only that but the RAC/AA/Greenflag can't do anything with them either. Just put it on trailer and take it to the maker. There will never be a lower cost non-franchise service option and the only way of getting FCV will be on lease from the maker. That makes them worthless on the 3rd hand market. |
#91
Posted to uk.rec.cars.maintenance,uk.d-i-y
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/17 14:48, Peter Hill wrote:
On 29-Sep-17 5:23 PM, NY wrote: "Graham J" wrote in message news As an earlier poster commented: "we have not progressed an enormous amount" - and the limitation is battery technology. Irrespective of the battery technology you need to put in phenomenal amounts of electrical energy, which means dangerously high charging voltages or current that needs very thick cables - or a combination of the two. 500 kWhr delivered in 5 mins is 6 MW - how the hell do we solve the problem of delivering electrical energy at that rate That's why you need either a swappable pre-charged battery or else an on-board generator powered by an IC engine if you want to avoid the very long charging times. When electric cars can match my present car, which has a range of 700 miles on 60 litres of diesel, and I can replenish that 700 miles range in a few minutes, then pure-electric cars will be a viable alternative. Until then, you have to make sacrifices: - have two cars (petrol/diesel for long journeys, mainly avoiding congested town/city centres, and electric for shorter journeys into town) - use public transport for longer journeys and hire a car locally when you go on holiday for touring (this is not feasible if you want to take bikes or lots of luggage) - charge the car overnight or while you're at work, and live with the fact that you cannot travel more than 100 miles or so (on current technology) before you need to repeat this palaver. So you need a hybrid or else a car with a fuel cell - either way, to convert very "compact" energy of something like petrol/diesel or compressed gas (LPG, hydrogen) into motion (via electricity). I hope the government has correctly predicted the rate at which technology will progress in the next 20 years, or there is going to be a very ****ed-off population who have to accept a drastic reduction in standard of living (live closer to work or at least to public transport, no long holidays touring around). The fundamental issue with fuel cell technology is that there isn't a single dealer on the whole planet that can service the hydrogen fuel system and the fuel cell. Not only that but the RAC/AA/Greenflag can't do anything with them either. Just put it on trailer and take it to the maker. There will never be a lower cost non-franchise service option and the only way of getting FCV will be on lease from the maker. That makes them worthless on the 3rd hand market. I'm not entirely convinced the problem of 'repairing' batteries in either all electric or even hybrid cars is entirely fixed. We are in the process of looking at a replacement car. We started looking at the Tesla 4x4. Two things convinced us it was a non-starter (no pun intended). One was the concern of getting stuck being unable to recharge it. The other was the battery/batteries seem to be so 'buried' in the vehicle that replacement / repair would seem to be either extremely difficult to impossible. In other respects, the claimed reliability seemed extremely impressive but, with a 'dead' battery, it is just a pile of junk. We are currently looking at a couple of hybrids- a Merc and the Outlander. At the moment I'm in the early stages but the Outlander at least has a long warranty on the batteries (8 years for 70%) plus you have the petrol engine at worst. The Merc warranty is much less 'impressive', as is the performance- at least on paper. We tend to keep our cars a long time, we buy one we like and 'get comfortable with it'- our current 4x4 is 11 years old and, having been 'looked after' will last several more years I am sure if we want it to- not least as he have several vehicles. |
#92
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In article ,
Huge wrote: On 2017-09-29, Graham J wrote: [27 lines snipped] By contrast cooling from an air conditioning system isn't really necessary in the UK. I can only assume you've never owned an air conditioned car. I would never buy a car without it, having owned one. Both mine have air-con. I hardly ever use it. Unlike the heater. -- *When you get a bladder infection urine trouble.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#93
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
[...] I can only assume you've never owned an air conditioned car. I would never buy a car without it, having owned one. Both mine have air-con. I hardly ever use it. Unlike the heater. I never used to, but my current car has climate control, and if left on auto runs the A/C pretty much all the time. It provides a reasonably stable temperature, and doesn't mist up easily, so I just leave it like that. Chris -- Remove prejudice to reply. |
#94
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In article ,
Chris Whelan wrote: Dave Plowman (News) wrote: [...] I can only assume you've never owned an air conditioned car. I would never buy a car without it, having owned one. Both mine have air-con. I hardly ever use it. Unlike the heater. I never used to, but my current car has climate control, and if left on auto runs the A/C pretty much all the time. It provides a reasonably stable temperature, and doesn't mist up easily, so I just leave it like that. Yes - my newer car has climate control. But also an AC defeat button marked 'ECO'. -- *PMS jokes aren't funny; period.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#95
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/2017 12:41, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-30, Peter Hill wrote: On 30-Sep-17 10:00 AM, MrCheerful wrote: [24 lines snipped] Would specialised staff be required to keep the filling process safe? Good site for a terrorist attack too. I would hazard a guess that hydrogen stations would not be permitted anywhere near housing.Â* I have only seen one and that was well in the countryside. More FUD. Well, quite. Skipping over the fact that "Mr. Cheerful" is an idiot troll, when criticising the safety of hydrogen fuelled vehicles, his ilk seem to conveniently forget just how dangerous petrol is, and we deal with that adequately. Petrol IS very dangerous, but it is a known danger, I am merely summarising a couple of ideas that occurred to me, hydrogen in the domestic market is not a known danger, and given its amazing powers to burn really well, I for one would want a lot of likely problems to be thoroughly sorted before (if ever) it becomes mainstream. |
#96
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/17 11:10, Nick Finnigan wrote:
On 30/09/2017 10:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 30/09/17 09:02, Tim Streater wrote: In article , Steve H wrote: Hydrogen seems sensible - you can make it on site (yes, you need a big electric cable - but so does a forecourt of charging stations) - you can fill a lightweight kevlar / carbon tank in minutes and get 500 miles of driving with only water / steam as the tailpipe emmissions. What, liquid hydrogen? How many litres is that for 500 miles? Dont even go there. Hydrogen is enormously bulky and bloody dangerous. Colorless, odorless, leaks out of any pipe that isn't perfect - teh explosin at fukushinma was from far less than a car tank of hydrogen.. Â*Unlike, say, methane or LPG ? Yes. They are a lot safer. Anything that detonates at car tank level is a big bang. But methane and LPG are a bit less likely to, and no nearly as laeky as hydrogen -- "It is an established fact to 97% confidence limits that left wing conspirators see right wing conspiracies everywhere" |
#97
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/17 11:13, Steve H wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: What, liquid hydrogen? How many litres is that for 500 miles? It's around 8kg of hydrogen. 122 litres of cryogenically frozen liquid hydrogen But that is of course ********. You need way more hydrogen than 8kg. 8kg of hydrogen is about 1000 MJ. That's about 29 litres of diesel. Something like 8 gallons If you think you can do 500 miles on 29 litres of diesel good luck with that. Suggest you look at the official figures for the Honda Clarity and Toyota equivalent. 'Official' ? written by advertsing agencies? The big stumbling block for Hydrogen is the power to crack it from water. But when you look at the requirements to charge 30 Teslas to do 500 miles, it doesn't look so bad! There's probably a balance here - plug-in fuel-cell / battery hybrids would work in 99% of situations. -- "What do you think about Gay Marriage?" "I don't." "Don't what?" "Think about Gay Marriage." |
#98
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/17 11:12, NY wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message news And used in an IC [hydrogen} is no better than diesel at NOX emissions You would be better off making synthetic diesel. Does most of the nitrogen in diesel NOx emissions come from the nitrogen in the atmosphere? ALL of it. I'd always thought it came from the diesel fuel. Evidently not. Nope, Hihe temp and pressure and a lean mixtire has nitrogen 'burning' top make Nox. Why is it that diesel engines and fuel cells have more of a problem with NOx than petrol engines? Is it because diesel engines are very lean burn (they use far more oxygen than is required to burn the fuel), whereas petrol is stoichiometric (ie perfect petrol:air ratio)? Yes. High temps presures and a superfluity of oxygen due to lean burn Petrol tems to limit air as well as fuel. -- "What do you think about Gay Marriage?" "I don't." "Don't what?" "Think about Gay Marriage." |
#99
Posted to uk.rec.cars.maintenance,uk.d-i-y
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/17 11:08, Steve H wrote:
MrCheerful wrote: The install can deliver to 30 cars per day. But it's scalable and is really at beta test stage. A normal filling station at present serves 30 cars in thirty minutes, so it would have to ramp up a real lot. Would specialised staff be required to keep the filling process safe? Good site for a terrorist attack too. I would hazard a guess that hydrogen stations would not be permitted anywhere near housing. I have only seen one and that was well in the countryside. We've had LPG for years and CNG is gaining momentum. You can put tanks underground (as we do with LPG and CNG). Filling is no more difficult than filling an LPG vehicle - the connector and filling process is near identical. So it can be operated by any member of the public without specialist attendants. Its still bloody stupid and dengerous. Hydrogen is the smallets atom there is. It LEAKS. # Hydrogen is just acting as a battery in these applications - as an energy store it's more efficient than storing in a lithium battery. -- "What do you think about Gay Marriage?" "I don't." "Don't what?" "Think about Gay Marriage." |
#100
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/2017 18:43, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , MrCheerful wrote: On 30/09/2017 12:41, Huge wrote: On 2017-09-30, Peter Hill wrote: On 30-Sep-17 10:00 AM, MrCheerful wrote: [24 lines snipped] Would specialised staff be required to keep the filling process safe? Good site for a terrorist attack too. I would hazard a guess that hydrogen stations would not be permitted anywhere near housing.Â* I have only seen one and that was well in the countryside. More FUD. Well, quite. Skipping over the fact that "Mr. Cheerful" is an idiot troll, when criticising the safety of hydrogen fuelled vehicles, his ilk seem to conveniently forget just how dangerous petrol is, and we deal with that adequately. Petrol IS very dangerous, but it is a known danger, I am merely summarising a couple of ideas that occurred to me, hydrogen in the domestic market is not a known danger, and given its amazing powers to burn really well, I for one would want a lot of likely problems to be thoroughly sorted before (if ever) it becomes mainstream. One plus for hydrogen is that when it burns, the flame is not so dangerous to be near (an explosion requires a mixture). This is because the flame is not luminous, unlike a hydrocarbon flame which is, and which therefore radiates a lot of heat sideways. You wouldn't have wanted to be near one of those Buncefield tanks. However, no one has yet indicated in what form teh hydrogen is in the car. Liquid (seems unlikely), but if as compressed gas, at what pressure? The fact that it leaks through steel is an indication of the care required in its usage. The filling pressure seems to be listed as 35 or 70mpa (10,000 psi) (that is dangerous in and of itself, no matter what the content is.) The filling stations are extremely expensive to set up too. |
#101
Posted to uk.rec.cars.maintenance,uk.d-i-y
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/2017 11:59, Peter Hill wrote:
On 30-Sep-17 11:30 AM, Steve H wrote: NY wrote: There are plenty of filling stations (eg the one at the Asda near me) which are open 24/7 as long as you use pay-at-pump, but are only staffed during daylight hours. Maybe they are monitored remotely by CCTV when the payment booths are unstaffed. They are. The security guard in the main building usually has a monitoring station for the filling station. Some fuel companies have been investigating remote CCTV coverage for unmanned stations - but UK petroleum officers aren't keen on it. (Belgium is big on unmanned stations like this) I wasn't talking about the staff. UK regulations requires the driver holds the trigger on the pump nozzle for filling of Diesel and petrol. Where in the Petroleum (Consolidation) Regulations 2014 are any other current regulation is that requirement ? |
#102
Posted to uk.rec.cars.maintenance,uk.d-i-y
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 14:30, Bob Minchin wrote:
Huge wrote: On 2017-09-29, Bob Minchin wrote: Tim Streater wrote: Since one can only go a mile or so on the battery, I suspect the state of charge at fill time has little effect on the figures. Is this for real?? Only a mile on battery?? WTF Surely you want enough electric propulsion to get you to a filling station of being green, through a town and out the other side. I cant really see how there can be much saving in running costs A bit of saving on regenerative braking and maybe a bit more smoothing out engine demand I suppose. You obviously have no idea how hybrids are supposed to work. Absolutely correct. I had assumed a greater proportion of electric power capacity, the possibility of home charging and a "get you out of trouble" petrol engine. The original prius had under 5kWh of capacity or something like that. To be honest, never really looked at them before and now I have a vague interest with the possible fossil fuel vehicle ban in the future. Is there a name for the technology nearer to what I described? One of the so called "plug in hybrids" perhaps. Also there are a class of EVs where the petrol engine is termed a "range extender" -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#103
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 15:08, Bob Minchin wrote:
Tim Streater wrote: What you're saying is a car where the main motive force is the battery/motor with a small petrol engine to recharge efficiently as you go along (range increaser). That doesn't seem to be the main focus of manufacturers at the minute. Yes that is about it Tim. Maybe manufacturers will take more of an interest as the fossil fuel only vehicle ban becomes more definite unless a battery swap or near instant charge method can approach what we are used to at a filling station. Eg 5 minute pause off the road extends range by 500 miles. If the can dodge the ban by installing a pack of AAs and calling it a hybrid, then that would be easier ;-) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
#104
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/2017 18:45, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/17 11:10, Nick Finnigan wrote: On 30/09/2017 10:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 30/09/17 09:02, Tim Streater wrote: In article , Steve H wrote: Hydrogen seems sensible - you can make it on site (yes, you need a big electric cable - but so does a forecourt of charging stations) - you can fill a lightweight kevlar / carbon tank in minutes and get 500 miles of driving with only water / steam as the tailpipe emmissions. What, liquid hydrogen? How many litres is that for 500 miles? Dont even go there. Hydrogen is enormously bulky and bloody dangerous. Colorless, odorless, leaks out of any pipe that isn't perfect - teh explosin at fukushinma was from far less than a car tank of hydrogen.. Â*Â*Unlike, say, methane or LPG ? Yes. They are a lot safer. Anything that detonates at car tank level is a big bang. But methane and LPG are a bit less likely to, and no nearly as laeky as hydrogen Hydrogen is indeed one of the worst gases - hence only it and acetylene being in their own group for explosion risk purposes in industrial installations. Unlike petrol it does have the saving grace of dissipating rapidly upwards and away instead of forming a liquid pool and a persistent surrounding vapour cloud. All in all, highly explosive, needing little energy to ignite it, but rapidly dissipated after release. SteveW |
#105
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/2017 18:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/17 11:08, Steve H wrote: MrCheerful wrote: The install can deliver to 30 cars per day. But it's scalable and is really at beta test stage. A normal filling station at present serves 30 cars in thirty minutes, so it would have to ramp up a real lot. Would specialised staff be required to keep the filling process safe? Good site for a terrorist attack too. I would hazard a guess that hydrogen stations would not be permitted anywhere near housing.Â* I have only seen one and that was well in the countryside. We've had LPG for years and CNG is gaining momentum. You can put tanks underground (as we do with LPG and CNG). Filling is no more difficult than filling an LPG vehicle - the connector and filling process is near identical. So it can be operated by any member of the public without specialist attendants. Its still bloody stupid and dengerous. Hydrogen is the smallets atom there is. It LEAKS. It leaks fairly slowly and dissipates upwards rapidly. Vents on the top of garages will let it go. It is however very easy to ignite, needing only a very tiny spark. If released in a crash it would be extremely explosive and esay to ignite, but on the other hand, unlike petrol, it would drift upwards and not maintain an explosive atmosphere for long. SteveW |
#106
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/17 14:48, Peter Hill wrote:
The fundamental issue with fuel cell technology is that there isn't a single dealer on the whole planet that can service the hydrogen fuel system and the fuel cell. No, te fundamentali issue is they dont work very well in cars. -- To ban Christmas, simply give turkeys the vote. |
#107
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/17 18:43, Tim Streater wrote:
One plus for hydrogen is that when it burns, the flame is not so dangerous to be near (an explosion requires a mixture). This is because the flame is not luminous, unlike a hydrocarbon flame which is, and which therefore radiates a lot of heat sideways. You wouldn't have wanted to be near one of those Buncefield tanks. ******** Tim. Racing drivers ahve burnt to death because methanol burns with no flame. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=MnDX4FpDAzQ Its now fairly banned in the UK -- Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend. "Saki" |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Nick Finnigan wrote:
Peter Hill wrote: UK regulations requires the driver holds the trigger on the pump nozzle for filling of Diesel and petrol. Where in the Petroleum (Consolidation) Regulations 2014 are any other current regulation is that requirement ? Possibly the DSEAR 2002? There are lots of vague mentions of "guidance" from the fire service at the time that self-service pumps became common, rather then regulations. |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 01-Oct-17 3:31 AM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/09/17 18:43, Tim Streater wrote: One plus for hydrogen is that when it burns, the flame is not so dangerous to be near (an explosion requires a mixture). This is because the flame is not luminous, unlike a hydrocarbon flame which is, and which therefore radiates a lot of heat sideways. You wouldn't have wanted to be near one of those Buncefield tanks. ******** Tim. Racing drivers ahve burnt to death because methanol burns with no flame. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=MnDX4FpDAzQ Its now fairly banned in the UK Not from Historic Racing it isn't. http://www.britishhistoricracingclub...cation-MWh.pdf Methanol may be used in any class of machine (Pre 1973). An orange day-glow disc (minimum 3 inches diameter) must be affixed on or immediately adjacent to the Racing Number Plate on both sides of any machine using methanol. Nor from speedway / grass track. Nor from Drag racing. Top Methanol Funny Car, Top Methanol Dragster http://www.eurodragster.com/sprc/gettingstarted.html I can't think of any racing class for bikes or cars that was using it and has been stopped from using methanol in the last 30 years. Seems to be easy to obtain in race fuel grade in UK. http://www.trackstuff.co.uk/VP%20M1%20Methanol.htm https://aaoil.co.uk/product/sunoco-r...ol-99-85-pure/ http://www.chemiphase.co.uk/methanol...ding-delivery/ The last supplier also lists dilution ratios for use in production of BioDiesel. You could have a 1000L ICB delivered on your doorstep in a few days, enough to make 5000L of BioDiesel. But none of those re-fuel with quick fillers and a hot (running?) engine. (Only the Yanks?) Nitromethane used in "top Fuel" drag racing class and model IC engines ("glow plug") burns to produce Nitric Acid. That's a bit toxic, drivers and fire lane crews wear gas masks. Natural gas in domestic gas boiler will produce Formaldehyde during warm up. The flame is "quenched" on the cold heat exchanger, the reaction stops with highly toxic part products of combustion. Many years ago my mum complained about a town gas leak venting from a tubular gate post. A bloke from the gas co came and inspected it. He wasn't bothered as it was vented and not collecting in an enclosed space. With the exception of Hydrogen most gas fuels have to be in an enclosed space to reach explosive mixture, otherwise they just dissipate. Heavier fuel gases like propane will flow along the ground and can then concentrate in drains which can then blow up. |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-29, Graham J wrote: [27 lines snipped] By contrast cooling from an air conditioning system isn't really necessary in the UK. I can only assume you've never owned an air conditioned car. I would never buy a car without it, having owned one. I've driven cars since 1970 and until 2005 never had air conditioning. I didn't miss it, except possibly for one summer day in 1994. However, since owning a car with a/c I do appreciate it, and can afford to buy a car that has it. My point is that it isn't really necessary in the UK - unlike a heater. Having said that my father (now long gone) drove cars without heaters until about 1960. I think the mini in 1959 was the first entry-level saloon that had a heater as standard. -- Graham J |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
"Huge" wrote in message
... I've driven cars since 1970 and until 2005 never had air conditioning. I didn't miss it, except possibly for one summer day in 1994. However, since owning a car with a/c I do appreciate it, and can afford to buy a car that has it. My point is that it isn't really necessary in the UK - A/C is nowhere near as necessary as a heater. My first three cars didn't have it. I *think* my 1993 Mark III Golf had A/C. I know my various Peugeots (306 and 308) have had it. I managed without until then. There were days when I got into an unbearably hot car and had the blower blowing "cold" (ambient air temperature) air onto me to keep me cool. There were a few days when this wasn't sufficient, especially if I was stuck in a traffic jam and had *only* the blower, without the added ram-jet effect of the car travelling along at 60 mph to force air through the dashboard vents. When I got a car with A/C it made a tremendous difference. Firstly it kept the car to a bearable temperature on the relatively few scorching hot days. Secondly it dried the air which made it demist the inside of the windows a lot more quickly on cold damp mornings. I used to have to wipe the inside of the windscreen and side windows before it was safe to drive, and they quickly misted up again; now I have A/C, I put the heater on hot with A/C to get hot dry air, which demists the windows and keeps them demisted. Warm dry air is better than hot humid air for doing this (the A/C chills as well as dries the air, and the heater has to overcome the chilling). A/C is very nice to have, but not essential like a heater is. I've never appreciated a heater more than the freezing cold day that the windows of my 1993 Golf spontaneously went down and wouldn't go back up, just as I parked at work. That lunchtime (*) I had to drive about 10 miles to the garage in sub-zero temperatures with the heater on full blast blowing very hot air out of all the vents to try to counteract the chilly air that was coming in through the windows. The fault was found to be a burned-out loom, and neither VW nor the branch of Halfords which fitted my alarm would accept responsibility, so I had to fork out about £400 for that. (*) Fortunately when I explained what had happened, the security guys at work let me park right next to their office so they could keep an eye on the car, since it was insecure with the windows open (but the doors dead-locked so they couldn't be opened by anyone who put their hand in through the open window). |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On Saturday, 30 September 2017 09:46:05 UTC+1, Chris Whelan wrote:
Steve H wrote: Tim Streater wrote: In article , Steve H wrote: Hydrogen seems sensible - you can make it on site (yes, you need a big electric cable - but so does a forecourt of charging stations) - you can fill a lightweight kevlar / carbon tank in minutes and get 500 miles of driving with only water / steam as the tailpipe emmissions. What, liquid hydrogen? How many litres is that for 500 miles? It's around 8kg of hydrogen. Remember, these are fuel cell vehicles - they're not combusting hydrogen in the traditional sense (which is what many people think hydrogen cars do) If the production of hydrogen requires electricity, where is that electricity going to come from? Most hydrogen is made from natural gas. Hydrogen is pointless. Every means of manufacture is very inefficient. It's dangerous to store and use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrog...team_reforming |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Nick Finnigan wrote:
Peter Hill wrote: UK regulations requires the driver holds the trigger on the pump nozzle for filling of Diesel and petrol. Where in the Petroleum (Consolidation) Regulations 2014 are any other current regulation is that requirement ? I asked someone who used to design petrol pumps, his reply ... "it is a legal requirement, as part of the type approval of the pumps for self-service. Ultimately type approval is only central government guidance to local authorities who have the final say through the issuing of petroleum licences. So the legal instrument covering it is the licence." |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 02/10/2017 11:24, Andy Burns wrote:
Nick Finnigan wrote: Peter Hill wrote: UK regulations requires the driver holds the trigger on the pump nozzle for filling of Diesel and petrol. Where in the Petroleum (Consolidation) Regulations 2014 are any other current regulation is that requirement ? I asked someone who used to design petrol pumps, his reply ... "it is a legal requirement, as part of the type approval of the pumps for self-service. Ultimately type approval is only central government guidance Did he mention the Measuring Instruments Directive (EC)? to local authorities who have the final say through the issuing of petroleum licences. So the legal instrument covering it is the licence." Did he mention licences being replaced by certificates ? |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Nick Finnigan wrote:
Andy Burns wrote: I asked someone who used to design petrol pumps Did he mention the Measuring Instruments Directive (EC)? Did he mention licences being replaced by certificates ? No, but I suppose neither were applicable back in the 80's when he was designing them ... |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
"harry" wrote in message ... On Saturday, 30 September 2017 09:46:05 UTC+1, Chris Whelan wrote: Steve H wrote: Tim Streater wrote: In article , Steve H wrote: Hydrogen seems sensible - you can make it on site (yes, you need a big electric cable - but so does a forecourt of charging stations) - you can fill a lightweight kevlar / carbon tank in minutes and get 500 miles of driving with only water / steam as the tailpipe emmissions. What, liquid hydrogen? How many litres is that for 500 miles? It's around 8kg of hydrogen. Remember, these are fuel cell vehicles - they're not combusting hydrogen in the traditional sense (which is what many people think hydrogen cars do) If the production of hydrogen requires electricity, where is that electricity going to come from? Most hydrogen is made from natural gas. Currently. Hydrogen is pointless. Even sillier than you usually manage, and thats saying something. Every means of manufacture is very inefficient. Thats a lie when produced directly by nukes. It's dangerous to store and use. But that may not be true forever with hydrides. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrog...team_reforming |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Andy Burns wrote:
No, but I suppose neither were applicable back in the 80's when he was designing them ... Back in the days of mechanical pumps there used to be a mechanical number display on the side, which was the actual total gallons dispensed, and a multiplication factor which was close (but not equal) to 1. AIUI, because the pump accuracy was greater than the tolerance specified by Weights and Measures, it was possible to routinely dispense slightly less than was indicated. Not much, but enough to be worth doing. Chris -- Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK Plant amazing Acers. |
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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 30/09/2017 00:43, Graham J wrote:
Providing heat for these requirements - even if the vehicle is spectacularly well insulated - will be an additional drain on an electrical vehicle. By contrast cooling from an air conditioning system isn't really necessary in the UK. There are of course a few days most summers when it's nice to have ... I would suggest that a decent heat pump AC system is essential for battery powered cars! Since its a far more efficient way of heating and demisting. (also not many people would be so keen to buy a car without AC anyway these days) -- Cheers, John. /================================================== ===============\ | Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk | |-----------------------------------------------------------------| | John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk | \================================================= ================/ |
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