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How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Had to hand my old corolla into a main dealer recently and was given a
courtesy car, a new automatic Yaris hybrid for the day. The petrol gauge was just above empty, so since i had a little running around to do that day; I collected my five litre petrol can to put in the boot. When handing the car back i told them i had taken the can with me because of where the petrol gauge was. Three of them gave me very knowing smiles and said: "its electric sir you only need petrol to charge the battery ". When i asked how far this new Yaris would run if it had used all the petrol, none of them knew. Any idea anyone? |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
john west wrote:
Had to hand my old corolla into a main dealer recently and was given a courtesy car, a new automatic Yaris hybrid for the day. The petrol gauge was just above empty, so since i had a little running around to do that day; I collected my five litre petrol can to put in the boot. When handing the car back i told them i had taken the can with me because of where the petrol gauge was. Three of them gave me very knowing smiles and said: "its electric sir you only need petrol to charge the battery ". When i asked how far this new Yaris would run if it had used all the petrol, none of them knew. Any idea anyone? Find a different garage - they are talking ********: https://www.toyota.co.uk/hybrid/hybrid-faq.json Chris -- Remove prejudice to reply. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 11:00, john west wrote:
Had to hand my old corolla into a main dealer recently and was given a courtesy car, a new automatic Yaris hybrid for the day. The petrol gauge was just above empty, so since i had a little running around to do that day; I collected my five litre petrol can to put in the boot. When handing the car back i told them i had taken the can with me because of where the petrol gauge was. Three of them gave me very knowing smiles and said: "its electric sir you only need petrol to charge the battery ". When i asked how far this new Yaris would run if it had used all the petrol, none of them knew. Any idea anyone? One mile and a little bit, depending how careful you are. The battery is really quite small and has less than 1kwh available from full charge, and the computer would not let you seriously flatten it. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
"Chris Whelan" wrote in message ... john west wrote: Had to hand my old corolla into a main dealer recently and was given a courtesy car, a new automatic Yaris hybrid for the day. The petrol gauge was just above empty, so since i had a little running around to do that day; I collected my five litre petrol can to put in the boot. When handing the car back i told them i had taken the can with me because of where the petrol gauge was. Three of them gave me very knowing smiles and said: "its electric sir you only need petrol to charge the battery ". When i asked how far this new Yaris would run if it had used all the petrol, none of them knew. Any idea anyone? Find a different garage - they are talking ********: https://www.toyota.co.uk/hybrid/hybrid-faq.json I'm not sure I understand the logic in Toyota's statement "Although our full-Hybrids are designed to operate in electric-only modes, they have not been designed to run without petrol. Doing so could cause severe damage to the Hybrid system." Clearly the batteries and motor are powerful enough to be the only form of propulsion (eg in towns where pollution is more of a problem), so what's the big deal about running out of petrol It's only doing the same as normal electric-only mode: running without the petrol engine. Obviously you need to limit how far you drive like this before filling up, to avoid flattening the battery, but I presume there is an estimated range which takes account of current battery charge and current petrol level, and adds the two together, making any adjustments as petrol is burned to top up the battery, or as the battery is discharged in no-petrol zones. I presume if you are calculating mpg figures you need to average over several tank-fillings to take into account that the battery may be in a different state of charge on each occasion that you fill the tank, and to minimise the effect of any differences in charge on the mpg calculations. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
"MrCheerful" wrote in message
... On 29/09/2017 11:00, john west wrote: Had to hand my old corolla into a main dealer recently and was given a courtesy car, a new automatic Yaris hybrid for the day. The petrol gauge was just above empty, so since i had a little running around to do that day; I collected my five litre petrol can to put in the boot. When handing the car back i told them i had taken the can with me because of where the petrol gauge was. Three of them gave me very knowing smiles and said: "its electric sir you only need petrol to charge the battery ". When i asked how far this new Yaris would run if it had used all the petrol, none of them knew. Any idea anyone? One mile and a little bit, depending how careful you are. The battery is really quite small and has less than 1kwh available from full charge, and the computer would not let you seriously flatten it. What? Is that all the charge that it holds? What's the point in having such a small battery? I though the whole idea of hybrid cars was that the engine charged the battery (as well as propelling the car) when you are out of town, so as to be able to drive the car in town on battery only. And that may be a significant distance from "cleaner" countryside and suburbs into "polluted" city centre. If the car has a range of only a mile or so on battery, how is a hybrid any better than a petrol-mechanical car where the engine runs all the time. I presume hybrids like the Toyota Yaris are petrol-mechanical rather than petrol-generator-motor during the times that the engine is running - ie that there is a mechanical transmission (whether manual, torque converter or CVT). |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In uk.d-i-y MrCheerful wrote:
One mile and a little bit, depending how careful you are. The battery is really quite small and has less than 1kwh available from full charge, and the computer would not let you seriously flatten it. A ballpark is 400Wh per mile, so do the sums based on the battery capacity. Depending on the technology you might only get 70% usable capacity because the best battery lifetime is avoiding it getting too empty or too full. Theo |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In uk.d-i-y NY wrote:
What? Is that all the charge that it holds? What's the point in having such a small battery? I though the whole idea of hybrid cars was that the engine charged the battery (as well as propelling the car) when you are out of town, so as to be able to drive the car in town on battery only. And that may be a significant distance from "cleaner" countryside and suburbs into "polluted" city centre. The battery smooths the operating curve, enabling the engine to run at its optimum point. For instance, if you're in stop/start traffic in a petrol manual, you're continually flipping between 1st, 2nd and stopping, revving up and down while making very little progress. In a hybrid, you're doing all the stop/start on the battery. Eventually the battery will deplete and the engine will kick in to charge the battery (even when stationary). It might run a lot faster than idling to do that at the optimum point. Once the battery is charged it'll stop and you'll have another 20 mins (or whatever) of electric mode. Another reason is regenerative braking: when in stop/start, it recovers some proportion of the energy back into the battery. As well as more efficient, this saves wear on the brake pads. On many hybrids they're never changed. Addiitonally, electric and engine can be used together to increase power - eg when flooring it joining a motorway, the electric motor provides additional torque for acceleration. That again means the engine is running optimally, and so a smaller engine can be fitted. That improves efficiency because you don't have to use the bigger engine the rest of the time when you don't need the extra power. Having electric motors (there are usually two) also means the gearing is a lot simpler - just one three-part planetary gear set on many cars. If you have a PHEV then they have bigger batteries to make it worthwhile charging from the mains. But basic hybrids are using the battery for smoothing rather than pure electric drive. IME, the only time pure-electric mode is worth using if there's a time you know better than the car - eg you're only going a few hundred yards and don't want the car to start the engine because you'll turn it off in a minute. Most of the time letting the car handle mixing power modes is more efficient. Theo |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 12:00, john west wrote:
Had to hand my old corolla into a main dealer recently and was given a courtesy car, a new automatic Yaris hybrid for the day. The petrol gauge was just above empty, so since i had a little running around to do that day; I collected my five litre petrol can to put in the boot. When handing the car back i told them i had taken the can with me because of where the petrol gauge was. Three of them gave me very knowing smiles and said: "its electric sir you only need petrol to charge the battery ". When i asked how far this new Yaris would run if it had used all the petrol, none of them knew. Any idea anyone? We are (half) looking at petrol hybrids at the moment. The two we have filtered it down to seem to claim about 30 miles in one case and 17 miles in the other, although they are both 4x4s so not exactly light cars. We looked at an all electric 4x4 (the Tesla) but ruled it out due to concerns over getting caught out with a 'flat' battery. The story they tell is all well an good until you factor in finding the 'top up' station has a queue and your brief stop for a coffee turns into dinner. -- Suspect someone is claiming a benefit under false pretences? Incapacity Benefit or Personal Independence Payment when they don't need it? They are depriving those in real need! https://www.gov.uk/report-benefit-fraud |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 11:57, NY wrote:
"Chris Whelan" wrote in message ... john west wrote: Had to hand my old corolla into a main dealer recently and was given a courtesy car, a new automatic Yaris hybrid for the day. The petrol gauge was just above empty, so since i had a little running around to do that day; I collected my five litre petrol can to put in the boot. When handing the car back i told them i had taken the can with me because of where the petrol gauge was. Three of them gave me very knowing smiles and said: "its electric sir you only need petrol to charge the battery ". When i asked how far this new Yaris would run if it had used all the petrol, none of them knew. Any idea anyone? Find a different garage - they are talking ********: https://www.toyota.co.uk/hybrid/hybrid-faq.json I'm not sure I understand the logic in Toyota's statement "Although our full-Hybrids are designed to operate in electric-only modes, they have not been designed to run without petrol. Doing so could cause severe damage to the Hybrid system." Clearly the batteries and motor are powerful enough to be the only form of propulsion (eg in towns where pollution is more of a problem), so what's the big deal about running out of petrol It's only doing the same as normal electric-only mode: running without the petrol engine. Obviously you need to limit how far you drive like this before filling up, to avoid flattening the battery, but I presume there is an estimated range which takes account of current battery charge and current petrol level, and adds the two together, making any adjustments as petrol is burned to top up the battery, or as the battery is discharged in no-petrol zones. I presume if you are calculating mpg figures you need to average over several tank-fillings to take into account that the battery may be in a different state of charge on each occasion that you fill the tank, and to minimise the effect of any differences in charge on the mpg calculations. The computer shows you lifetime fuel average |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 12:04, NY wrote:
"MrCheerful" wrote in message ... On 29/09/2017 11:00, john west wrote: Had to hand my old corolla into a main dealer recently and was given a courtesy car, a new automatic Yaris hybrid for the day. The petrol gauge was just above empty, so since i had a little running around to do that day; I collected my five litre petrol can to put in the boot. When handing the car back i told them i had taken the can with me because of where the petrol gauge was. Three of them gave me very knowing smiles and said: "its electric sir you only need petrol to charge the battery ". When i asked how far this new Yaris would run if it had used all the petrol, none of them knew. Any idea anyone? One mile and a little bit, depending how careful you are.Â* The battery is really quite small and has less than 1kwh available from full charge, and the computer would not let you seriously flatten it. What? Is that all the charge that it holds? What's the point in having such a small battery? I though the whole idea of hybrid cars was that the engine charged the battery (as well as propelling the car) when you are out of town, so as to be able to drive the car in town on battery only. And that may be a significant distance from "cleaner" countryside and suburbs into "polluted" city centre. If the car has a range of only a mile or so on battery, how is a hybrid any better than a petrol-mechanical car where the engine runs all the time. I presume hybrids like the Toyota Yaris are petrol-mechanical rather than petrol-generator-motor during the times that the engine is running - ie that there is a mechanical transmission (whether manual, torque converter or CVT). Getting moving is a large drain on power, an electric motor is good at this, driving in town the battery gets a lot of recharge from the slowing down regeneration, around town the yaris hybrid gets about 65 to the gallon because of the elctric assistance, running on a motorway you will get a lot less. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 12:05, Theo wrote:
In uk.d-i-y MrCheerful wrote: One mile and a little bit, depending how careful you are. The battery is really quite small and has less than 1kwh available from full charge, and the computer would not let you seriously flatten it. A ballpark is 400Wh per mile, so do the sums based on the battery capacity. Depending on the technology you might only get 70% usable capacity because the best battery lifetime is avoiding it getting too empty or too full. Theo sounds about right, the battery is 0.95kwh |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In uk.d-i-y NY wrote:
I'm not sure I understand the logic in Toyota's statement "Although our full-Hybrids are designed to operate in electric-only modes, they have not been designed to run without petrol. Doing so could cause severe damage to the Hybrid system." Clearly the batteries and motor are powerful enough to be the only form of propulsion (eg in towns where pollution is more of a problem), so what's the big deal about running out of petrol The computer monitors the state of the battery and the engine, turning on one, other or both as appropriate for the conditions. When in electric mode the engine is always available within about a second if the conditions require extra power, or the battery is becoming unhappy. If you don't have the engine available because there is no fuel, it can put the electric system out of spec - eg stressing the motor trying to draw more power out of it than it's comfortable with, or draining the battery into a region that causes lasting damage. The systems are extremely conservative: the primary goal is to not kill you. So if you floor it, it will assume you need the power to get out of a tricky situation - it'll deliver as much as the physics will allow, and damage to the car is a secondary concern. That's why you need both systems functional, because each system is the backup for the other. I presume if you are calculating mpg figures you need to average over several tank-fillings to take into account that the battery may be in a different state of charge on each occasion that you fill the tank, and to minimise the effect of any differences in charge on the mpg calculations. Unless it's a PHEV it's not really worth bothering with. I don't know if the onboard PHEV systems keep track of that. Theo |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 13:00, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , MrCheerful wrote: Getting moving is a large drain on power, an electric motor is good at this, driving in town the battery gets a lot of recharge from the slowing down regeneration, around town the yaris hybrid gets about 65 to the gallon because of the elctric assistance, running on a motorway you will get a lot less. Depends how you drive. These days I tend to go more slowly on motorways than heretofore, so as to avoid the yo-yos. I managed to raise the lifetime average of a Prius by 1mpg on a long motorway run, I used the cruise control for braking whenever it was feasible. I was running at 70 - 80mph most of the time and it crept up to 59.something |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In article ,
NY wrote: What? Is that all the charge that it holds? What's the point in having such a small battery? I though the whole idea of hybrid cars was that the engine charged the battery (as well as propelling the car) when you are out of town, so as to be able to drive the car in town on battery only. And that may be a significant distance from "cleaner" countryside and suburbs into "polluted" city centre. Not so. The original Prius only moved a few feet on battery only before the engine starts. The main idea is not to have the engine idling when not needed. And creeping in heavy traffic. It is why they were only more economical at very low speeds in heavy traffic. In light traffic they can use more fuel than an equivalent petrol only car. And if driven hard with a full load on the open road can be rather worse. -- *Remember not to forget that which you do not need to know.* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote: In article , NY wrote: If the car has a range of only a mile or so on battery, how is a hybrid any better than a petrol-mechanical car where the engine runs all the time. I presume hybrids like the Toyota Yaris are petrol-mechanical rather than petrol-generator-motor during the times that the engine is running - ie that there is a mechanical transmission (whether manual, torque converter or CVT). I don't remember the proper term for the gear-box type but it can accept two sources of input power (from the petrol engine and the electric motor) and feed that to the wheels. It's basically a form of differential given a posh name. -- *Until I was thirteen, I thought my name was SHUT UP . Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote: In article , MrCheerful wrote: Getting moving is a large drain on power, an electric motor is good at this, driving in town the battery gets a lot of recharge from the slowing down regeneration, around town the yaris hybrid gets about 65 to the gallon because of the elctric assistance, running on a motorway you will get a lot less. Depends how you drive. These days I tend to go more slowly on motorways than heretofore, so as to avoid the yo-yos. All hybrid drivers tend to drive slowly everywhere. Odd, considering how little fuel they are claimed to use. Quite funny on the M4 to Heathrow. All the Uber Prius in the inside lane at 50 mph - and all the black cabs steaming past them. -- *If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 13:04, MrCheerful wrote:
On 29/09/2017 13:00, Tim Streater wrote: In article , MrCheerful wrote: Getting moving is a large drain on power, an electric motor is good at this, driving in town the battery gets a lot of recharge from the slowing down regeneration, around town the yaris hybrid gets about 65 to the gallon because of the elctric assistance, running on a motorway you will get a lot less. Depends how you drive. These days I tend to go more slowly on motorways than heretofore, so as to avoid the yo-yos. I managed to raise the lifetime average of a Prius by 1mpg on a long motorway run, I used the cruise control for braking whenever it was feasible.Â* I was running at 70 - 80mph most of the time and it crept up to 59.something A 10 year old Ford Mondeo can get that. 55mpg average though obviously won't match a hybrid in city stop-start traffic. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 13:37, Fredxxx wrote:
On 29/09/2017 13:04, MrCheerful wrote: On 29/09/2017 13:00, Tim Streater wrote: In article , MrCheerful wrote: Getting moving is a large drain on power, an electric motor is good at this, driving in town the battery gets a lot of recharge from the slowing down regeneration, around town the yaris hybrid gets about 65 to the gallon because of the elctric assistance, running on a motorway you will get a lot less. Depends how you drive. These days I tend to go more slowly on motorways than heretofore, so as to avoid the yo-yos. I managed to raise the lifetime average of a Prius by 1mpg on a long motorway run, I used the cruise control for braking whenever it was feasible.Â* I was running at 70 - 80mph most of the time and it crept up to 59.something A 10 year old Ford Mondeo can get that. 55mpg average though obviously won't match a hybrid in city stop-start traffic. I know, I was trying to point out that driving style makes a lot of difference in a hybrid. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 13:32, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Tim Streater wrote: In article , MrCheerful wrote: Getting moving is a large drain on power, an electric motor is good at this, driving in town the battery gets a lot of recharge from the slowing down regeneration, around town the yaris hybrid gets about 65 to the gallon because of the elctric assistance, running on a motorway you will get a lot less. Depends how you drive. These days I tend to go more slowly on motorways than heretofore, so as to avoid the yo-yos. All hybrid drivers tend to drive slowly everywhere. Odd, considering how little fuel they are claimed to use. Quite funny on the M4 to Heathrow. All the Uber Prius in the inside lane at 50 mph - and all the black cabs steaming past them. The uber drivers need all the economy they can get, black cabs earn plenty and so can afford the hit on fuel Prius: 50mpg or more TX4: 35mpg if you are lucky |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Tim Streater wrote:
Since one can only go a mile or so on the battery, I suspect the state of charge at fill time has little effect on the figures. Is this for real?? Only a mile on battery?? WTF Surely you want enough electric propulsion to get you to a filling station of being green, through a town and out the other side. I cant really see how there can be much saving in running costs A bit of saving on regenerative braking and maybe a bit more smoothing out engine demand I suppose. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In article ,
MrCheerful wrote: The uber drivers need all the economy they can get, black cabs earn plenty and so can afford the hit on fuel Prius: 50mpg or more TX4: 35mpg if you are lucky It's rather a myth that Uber drivers can't make reasonable money. And that all black cab drivers make a fortune. -- *And don't start a sentence with a conjunction * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 13:54, Bob Minchin wrote:
Tim Streater wrote: Since one can only go a mile or so on the battery, I suspect the state of charge at fill time has little effect on the figures. Is this for real?? Only a mile on battery?? WTF Surely you want enough electric propulsion to get you to a filling station of being green, through a town and out the other side. I cant really see how there can be much saving in running costs A bit of saving on regenerative braking and maybe a bit more smoothing out engine demand I suppose. Some of the latest more hybrids can get about 20 miles on battery alone at reasonable but not high speed. They are fitted with a 8.8kwh battery pack. 116 years ago a columbia electric could about 3 miles on battery power with a top speed of 14mph, really we have not progressed an enormous amount. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-29, Bob Minchin wrote: Tim Streater wrote: Since one can only go a mile or so on the battery, I suspect the state of charge at fill time has little effect on the figures. Is this for real?? Only a mile on battery?? WTF Surely you want enough electric propulsion to get you to a filling station of being green, through a town and out the other side. I cant really see how there can be much saving in running costs A bit of saving on regenerative braking and maybe a bit more smoothing out engine demand I suppose. You obviously have no idea how hybrids are supposed to work. Absolutely correct. I had assumed a greater proportion of electric power capacity, the possibility of home charging and a "get you out of trouble" petrol engine. To be honest, never really looked at them before and now I have a vague interest with the possible fossil fuel vehicle ban in the future. Is there a name for the technology nearer to what I described? I just don't feel I could ever be comfortable with purely battery power with the risk of running flat on a journey, or touring holidays which we enjoy currently. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In uk.rec.cars.maintenance "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Not so. The original Prius only moved a few feet on battery only before the engine starts. The main idea is not to have the engine idling when not needed. And creeping in heavy traffic. That's not quite accurate. The Prius (certainly Gen2, I think Gen1 as well) starts the engine after 7 seconds even if you're stationary. This is to warm up the catalytic converter for emissions control purposes - warmup takes about 1/2 mile under normal driving. The EU Gen2 has an EV button that overrides the engine start to allow pure-electric mode from cold; the US version doesn't have it (CARB rules), not sure about the Gen1. It is why they were only more economical at very low speeds in heavy traffic. In light traffic they can use more fuel than an equivalent petrol only car. And if driven hard with a full load on the open road can be rather worse. At the end of the day, it's a 1.5l engine with about 1.2 tonne behind it. Driving that at 85mph isn't going to be the most efficient. At about 60mph it's a lot better. Theo |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 14:12, Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-29, MrCheerful wrote: On 29/09/2017 13:37, Fredxxx wrote: On 29/09/2017 13:04, MrCheerful wrote: On 29/09/2017 13:00, Tim Streater wrote: In article , MrCheerful wrote: Getting moving is a large drain on power, an electric motor is good at this, driving in town the battery gets a lot of recharge from the slowing down regeneration, around town the yaris hybrid gets about 65 to the gallon because of the elctric assistance, running on a motorway you will get a lot less. Depends how you drive. These days I tend to go more slowly on motorways than heretofore, so as to avoid the yo-yos. I managed to raise the lifetime average of a Prius by 1mpg on a long motorway run, I used the cruise control for braking whenever it was feasible.Â* I was running at 70 - 80mph most of the time and it crept up to 59.something A 10 year old Ford Mondeo can get that. 55mpg average though obviously won't match a hybrid in city stop-start traffic. I know, I was trying to point out that driving style makes a lot of difference in a hybrid. "Driving style makes a lot of difference." There. Fixed that for you. Not sure what you fixed? The extra weight of generators, motors and batteries also 'makes a lot of difference'. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In uk.rec.cars.maintenance Huge wrote:
On 2017-09-29, Theo wrote: [16 lines snipped] The systems are extremely conservative: the primary goal is to not kill you. So if you floor it, it will assume you need the power to get out of a tricky situation - it'll deliver as much as the physics will allow, and damage to the car is a secondary concern. FWIW, this is most certainly not true in a LEAF. A Leaf is not a hybrid, there is no engine to use as a backup system. Therefore the calculus is rather different. Theo |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. . In article , NY wrote: I presume if you are calculating mpg figures you need to average over several tank-fillings to take into account that the battery may be in a different state of charge on each occasion that you fill the tank, and to minimise the effect of any differences in charge on the mpg calculations. My spreadsheet graphs the fill-to-fill MPG, the long term MPG (since vehicle purchase) and the average of the last five fillings MPG. Since one can only go a mile or so on the battery, I suspect the state of charge at fill time has little effect on the figures. Yes when I said about needing to take into account charge in battery I hadn't realised that the battery in petrol hybrid had such a small capacity. I'd assumed that it could manage maybe 50 continuous miles on its charge so as to not require the engine to be used at all while in a city. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 14:18, MrCheerful wrote:
On 29/09/2017 13:54, Bob Minchin wrote: Tim Streater wrote: Since one can only go a mile or so on the battery, I suspect the state of charge at fill time has little effect on the figures. Is this for real?? Only a mile on battery?? WTF Surely you want enough electric propulsion to get you to a filling station of being green, through a town and out the other side. I cant really see how there can be much saving in running costs A bit of saving on regenerative braking and maybe a bit more smoothing out engine demand I suppose. Some of the latest more hybrids can get about 20 miles on battery alone at reasonable but not high speed.Â* They are fitted with a 8.8kwh battery pack. 116 years ago a columbia electric could about 3 miles on battery power with a top speed of 14mph, really we have not progressed an enormous amount. that should read 30 miles. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 14:36, Fredxxx wrote:
On 29/09/2017 14:12, Huge wrote: On 2017-09-29, MrCheerful wrote: On 29/09/2017 13:37, Fredxxx wrote: On 29/09/2017 13:04, MrCheerful wrote: On 29/09/2017 13:00, Tim Streater wrote: In article , MrCheerful wrote: Getting moving is a large drain on power, an electric motor is good at this, driving in town the battery gets a lot of recharge from the slowing down regeneration, around town the yaris hybrid gets about 65 to the gallon because of the elctric assistance, running on a motorway you will get a lot less. Depends how you drive. These days I tend to go more slowly on motorways than heretofore, so as to avoid the yo-yos. I managed to raise the lifetime average of a Prius by 1mpg on a long motorway run, I used the cruise control for braking whenever it was feasible.Â* I was running at 70 - 80mph most of the time and it crept up to 59.something A 10 year old Ford Mondeo can get that. 55mpg average though obviously won't match a hybrid in city stop-start traffic. I know, I was trying to point out that driving style makes a lot of difference in a hybrid. "Driving style makes a lot of difference." There. Fixed that for you. Not sure what you fixed? The extra weight of generators, motors and batteries also 'makes a lot of difference'. a hybrid needs a different driving style to get the best |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Tim Streater wrote:
What you're saying is a car where the main motive force is the battery/motor with a small petrol engine to recharge efficiently as you go along (range increaser). That doesn't seem to be the main focus of manufacturers at the minute. Yes that is about it Tim. Maybe manufacturers will take more of an interest as the fossil fuel only vehicle ban becomes more definite unless a battery swap or near instant charge method can approach what we are used to at a filling station. Eg 5 minute pause off the road extends range by 500 miles. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 14:36, Theo wrote:
In uk.rec.cars.maintenance "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Not so. The original Prius only moved a few feet on battery only before the engine starts. The main idea is not to have the engine idling when not needed. And creeping in heavy traffic. That's not quite accurate. The Prius (certainly Gen2, I think Gen1 as well) starts the engine after 7 seconds even if you're stationary. This is to warm up the catalytic converter for emissions control purposes - warmup takes about 1/2 mile under normal driving. The EU Gen2 has an EV button that overrides the engine start to allow pure-electric mode from cold; the US version doesn't have it (CARB rules), not sure about the Gen1. It is why they were only more economical at very low speeds in heavy traffic. In light traffic they can use more fuel than an equivalent petrol only car. And if driven hard with a full load on the open road can be rather worse. At the end of the day, it's a 1.5l engine with about 1.2 tonne behind it. Driving that at 85mph isn't going to be the most efficient. At about 60mph it's a lot better. Theo 1.8l nowadays, and I managed nearly 20 minutes without the engine running at all in very slow traffic approaching road works. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. . In article , Bob Minchin wrote: Huge wrote: On 2017-09-29, Bob Minchin wrote: Tim Streater wrote: Since one can only go a mile or so on the battery, I suspect the state of charge at fill time has little effect on the figures. Is this for real?? Only a mile on battery?? WTF Surely you want enough electric propulsion to get you to a filling station of being green, through a town and out the other side. I cant really see how there can be much saving in running costs A bit of saving on regenerative braking and maybe a bit more smoothing out engine demand I suppose. You obviously have no idea how hybrids are supposed to work. Absolutely correct. I had assumed a greater proportion of electric power capacity, the possibility of home charging and a "get you out of trouble" petrol engine. To be honest, never really looked at them before and now I have a vague interest with the possible fossil fuel vehicle ban in the future. Is there a name for the technology nearer to what I described? I just don't feel I could ever be comfortable with purely battery power with the risk of running flat on a journey, or touring holidays which we enjoy currently. What you're saying is a car where the main motive force is the battery/motor with a small petrol engine to recharge efficiently as you go along (range increaser). That doesn't seem to be the main focus of manufacturers at the minute. Which is a shame. I imagine it is a lot easier to drive an electric car because there is no gearbox (or at least, there is one fixed ratio) so you are controlling the road speed directly without having to take into account the fact that in a petrol/diesel car the torque/acceleration is greater in a lower gear so the amount of throttle you need depends on what gear you are in; this is fine in a manual where you *know* what gear you are in, but I find automatics change down on demand so it's difficult to get just the acceleration you want - too little throttle and it stays in a high gear but with little engine power, fractionally more throttle and it changes down when you wouldn't in a manual and then gives an unexpected surge of acceleration. Whenever I had an automatic car on a site visit at work I found it very difficult to accelerate smoothly out of roundabouts because of the unexpected change down - I never managed to estimate the right amount of throttle to get it to stay in third and then apply increasing engine power. (*) Electrics would have that discontinuity. I imagine that it is possible to set an acceleration limit in the controlling software, as well as a speed limit. But everything depends critically on range. So a petrol/diesel-electric with a decent size of battery and electric rather than mechanical drive at all times, would seem to be the way forward. As a matter of interest, how much energy is put back into a battery by regenerative braking. It would be interesting to see comparative mpg figures for the same car, being driven in the same conditions, first with regen turned off and then with it turned on. (*) The ultimate was a Ford Focus that I was one given as a hire car, which I presume had a fault. It would get up to about 50 but if I tried to go faster, it changed down. I managed to get 50 in any of 4th, 3rd or 2nd gear with correspondingly higher engine speeds. Painful on a motorway. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
"Tim Streater" wrote in message
.. . In article , NY wrote: If the car has a range of only a mile or so on battery, how is a hybrid any better than a petrol-mechanical car where the engine runs all the time. I presume hybrids like the Toyota Yaris are petrol-mechanical rather than petrol-generator-motor during the times that the engine is running - ie that there is a mechanical transmission (whether manual, torque converter or CVT). I don't remember the proper term for the gear-box type but it can accept two sources of input power (from the petrol engine and the electric motor) and feed that to the wheels. Oh, so the electric motor still goes through the variable-ratio gearbox rather than being a single ratio from 0 to maximum road speed? Seems to defeat one of the big advantages of an electric motor - that unlike an IC engine it has torque at zero rpm and over the whole operating speed. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In article ,
Huge wrote: I discovered after spending years towing my race car to events that driving more slowly on motorways is much less stressful and has virtually no effect on travel times, so I always do it now. Depends what you mean by slowly and how long your journey is. I can assure you travelling at 50 rather than 70 makes a very big difference to the travel time on a 600 mile journey. In practice, the difference between doing it in one day or two. -- *Men are from Earth, women are from Earth. Deal with it. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
In article ,
Theo wrote: In uk.rec.cars.maintenance "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote: Not so. The original Prius only moved a few feet on battery only before the engine starts. The main idea is not to have the engine idling when not needed. And creeping in heavy traffic. That's not quite accurate. The Prius (certainly Gen2, I think Gen1 as well) starts the engine after 7 seconds even if you're stationary. This is to warm up the catalytic converter for emissions control purposes - warmup takes about 1/2 mile under normal driving. The EU Gen2 has an EV button that overrides the engine start to allow pure-electric mode from cold; the US version doesn't have it (CARB rules), not sure about the Gen1. It is why they were only more economical at very low speeds in heavy traffic. In light traffic they can use more fuel than an equivalent petrol only car. And if driven hard with a full load on the open road can be rather worse. At the end of the day, it's a 1.5l engine with about 1.2 tonne behind it. Driving that at 85mph isn't going to be the most efficient. At about 60mph it's a lot better. Only really had much experience of an early one. And although it had obvious advantages in heavy traffic, its size was more a family car in the UK than a town only one. And it was horrid when used as a family car for long journeys. But can see why it makes an economical taxi. But then I don't want a taxi for daily use. ;-) -- *I'm really easy to get along with once people learn to worship me Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 11:00, john west wrote:
When i asked how far this new Yaris would run if it had used all the petrol, none of them knew. Any idea anyone? According to the Toyota website it is not intended to be run to the point where it runs out of petrol and permanent damage may occur: https://www.toyota.co.uk/hybrid/hybrid-faq.json Bottom FAQ on the page. What if I run out of petrol? Bit of a risk handing it to a customer so close to empty. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Bob Minchin wrote:
Tim Streater wrote: Since one can only go a mile or so on the battery Is this for real?? Only a mile on battery?? WTF Surely you want enough electric propulsion to get you to a filling station My neighbour has a Prius, some days he reverses off the drive on battery alone and the engine starts as he pulls off down the road; other days, it only moves a few feet then the engine starts while he's still on his drive. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
On 29/09/2017 16:49, Andy Burns wrote:
Bob Minchin wrote: Tim Streater wrote: Since one can only go a mile or so on the battery Is this for real?? Only a mile on battery?? WTF Surely you want enough electric propulsion to get you to a filling station My neighbour has a Prius, some days he reverses off the drive on battery alone and the engine starts as he pulls off down the road; other days, it only moves a few feet then the engine starts while he's still on his drive. From cold it will, intentionally, unless you hit the EV button first. |
How far travelling a Hybrid with no petrol
Dave Plowman wrote:
Tim Streater wrote: I don't remember the proper term for the gear-box type but it can accept two sources of input power (from the petrol engine and the electric motor) and feed that to the wheels. or use motor as generator for regenerative braking, or feed engine power to motor as generator purely to charge battery with wheels stationary. It's basically a form of differential given a posh name. planetary. |
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