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#1
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved
with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. I have considered putting some Celotex in my attic and then covering it with thin plywood so that I could walk on it but I have rather gone off the idea, though if the house catches fire badly, I am unlikely to want to go in the attic. -- Michael Chare --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#2
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote:
A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. Unlikely, since it wasnt. In fact you are the only person who seems to know this. I have considered putting some Celotex in my attic and then covering it with thin plywood so that I could walk on it but I have rather gone off the idea, though if the house catches fire badly, I am unlikely to want to go in the attic. Get some and put a blowtorch to it. Celotex insulation does not really burn. The cladding, which is not used domestically, did. Celotex on their website has documentation specifically warning users and designers to be aware of regulations concerning buildings 'with a storey height of over 18m' They tested it as safe when used with cladding formed of mineral composites. They did not test it with cladding formed of plastic foam sandwiched between thin aluminium or zinc sheets, that would bridge the fire stops. -- "Women actually are capable of being far more than the feminists will let them." |
#3
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Get some and put a blowtorch to it. Celotex insulation does not really burn. Where "not really" means that an external flame will make it burn, giving off a surprising amount of smoke, it will char and and the flame from the foam will sputter out after a few seconds when you take the blowtorch away ... maybe a big slab with lower surface:volume ratio performs better than tests on offcuts of an inch or two? |
#4
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote:
A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. The last renovation work was visible, done to make the tower more presentable to the nearby nimby wealthy residents. The media have been directed to criticise this, taking the flak away from council failure specify install water tanks, install sprinklers, and perform regular maintenance. Little to do with celotex. Perhaps, there should be a contest to design heat resistant external stairwells, that could be retrofitted to old tower blocks. Celotex would probably be good for that. -- Adrian C |
#5
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/2017 11:55, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Get some and put a blowtorch to it. Celotex insulation does not really burn. Where "not really" means that an external flame will make it burn, giving off a surprising amount of smoke, it will char and and the flame from the foam will sputter out after a few seconds when you take the blowtorch away ... maybe a big slab with lower surface:volume ratio performs better than tests on offcuts of an inch or two? Celotex or Celotex FR5000? The former is Class 1, the latter Class 0. When I fitted Celotex in the loft here I reckoned that by the time a fire had gone through the plasterboard into the loft I'd either be out or dead. And that the Victorian rafters and joists would go up like the proverbial in any event. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#6
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/17 11:55, Andy Burns wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote: Get some and put a blowtorch to it. Celotex insulation does not really burn. Where "not really" means that an external flame will make it burn, giving off a surprising amount of smoke, it will char and and the flame from the foam will sputter out after a few seconds when you take the blowtorch away ... maybe a big slab with lower surface:volume ratio performs better than tests on offcuts of an inch or two? "Not really" means that at atmospeheric oxygen levels an endothermic reaction happens. I.e. it does not burn, It decomposes under heat. So, too, does plasterboard and fireproof board. In fact so too does pretty much anything, Burning means an exothermic reaction that is self sustaining in air. like aluminium polyethylene foam panels, giving off a surprising amount of smoke... -- The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with what it actually is. |
#7
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/17 12:25, Robin wrote:
On 18/06/2017 11:55, Andy Burns wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: Get some and put a blowtorch to it. Celotex insulation does not really burn. Where "not really" means that an external flame will make it burn, giving off a surprising amount of smoke, it will char and and the flame from the foam will sputter out after a few seconds when you take the blowtorch away ... maybe a big slab with lower surface:volume ratio performs better than tests on offcuts of an inch or two? Celotex or Celotex FR5000? The former is Class 1, the latter Class 0. When I fitted Celotex in the loft here I reckoned that by the time a fire had gone through the plasterboard into the loft I'd either be out or dead. And that the Victorian rafters and joists would go up like the proverbial in any event. whatever was fitted to my house Tried to burn the scraps. No go. -- "When one man dies it's a tragedy. When thousands die it's statistics." Josef Stalin |
#9
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
In article ,
Adrian Caspersz wrote: The last renovation work was visible, done to make the tower more presentable to the nearby nimby wealthy residents. Unless you wish to reduce the area of what are already in many cases quite small rooms by fitting the insulation internally, the only option is to fit it outside. And any such insulation requires a facing of some sort just to protect it from the elements. It would be a very perverse person who required this cladding to be less attractive than the original concrete. To say it was merely to improve looks for nearby residents is nonsense, because any normal person will get pleasure out of living in a nice looking building over a tatty one. So it could be said to serve three purposes all at the same cost. Even more reasons not to penny pinch on it. The media have been directed to criticise this, taking the flak away from council failure specify install water tanks, install sprinklers, and perform regular maintenance. -- *This message has been ROT-13 encrypted twice for extra security * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#10
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
Brian Gaff brought next idea :
Maybe they should use the stuff they make the flat panels of toasters from. Brian Mica? |
#11
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
"Brian Gaff" wrote in message news Hmm, its a tough one this. I suspect that the actually reason in this particular cases will turn out to be no blocking of the fire between flats and floors and a chimney effect resulting from free air flow. Its probably compounded by poor windows that either break or melt as well. There is a world of difference between non flammable and stuff that will burn at high temperatures, heck aluminium burns at high temperatures. Maybe they should use the stuff they make the flat panels of toasters from. Brian -- ----- - This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from... The Sofa of Brian Gaff... Blind user, so no pictures please! "Michael Chare" wrote in message news A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. I have considered putting some Celotex in my attic and then covering it with thin plywood so that I could walk on it but I have rather gone off the idea, though if the house catches fire badly, I am unlikely to want to go in the attic. bring back asbestos I say ..... |
#12
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On Sunday, June 18, 2017 at 12:25:10 PM UTC+1, Robin wrote:
On 18/06/2017 11:55, Andy Burns wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: Get some and put a blowtorch to it. Celotex insulation does not really burn. Where "not really" means that an external flame will make it burn, giving off a surprising amount of smoke, it will char and and the flame from the foam will sputter out after a few seconds when you take the blowtorch away ... maybe a big slab with lower surface:volume ratio performs better than tests on offcuts of an inch or two? Celotex or Celotex FR5000? The former is Class 1, the latter Class 0. Reynobond PE is Class 0 as well.... When I fitted Celotex in the loft here I reckoned that by the time a fire had gone through the plasterboard into the loft I'd either be out or dead. And that the Victorian rafters and joists would go up like the proverbial in any event. -- Robin reply-to address is (intended to be) valid |
#13
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/2017 13:54, Tim Streater wrote:
While any such block should have two staircases, where would one actually put such a staircase - unless you sacrifice at least one of the flats on each floor? I saw a floor layout the other day, looked to me like any such staircase would be outside someone's window. Most of the flats around here have two or more staircases. It a case of what the planning department think of cost v safety. |
#14
Posted to uk.d-i-y
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
In message , at 17:50:04 on
Sun, 18 Jun 2017, Tim Streater remarked: While any such block should have two staircases, where would one actually put such a staircase - unless you sacrifice at least one of the flats on each floor? I saw a floor layout the other day, looked to me like any such staircase would be outside someone's window. Most of the flats around here have two or more staircases. The question was, where would you put a second, retrofitted, staircase, on blocks like the one in question? You'd have to use one of the 1-bedroom flats on each floor, reducing the occupancy by about a tenth. -- Roland Perry |
#15
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/2017 18:49, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 17:50:04 on Sun, 18 Jun 2017, Tim Streater remarked: While any such block should have two staircases, where would one actually put such a staircase - unless you sacrifice at least one of the flats on each floor? I saw a floor layout the other day, looked to me like any such staircase would be outside someone's window. Most of the flats around here have two or more staircases. The question was, where would you put a second, retrofitted, staircase, on blocks like the one in question? You'd have to use one of the 1-bedroom flats on each floor, reducing the occupancy by about a tenth. The criminal investigation will probably be completed before the public enquiry. |
#16
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/2017 11:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote: A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. Unlikely, since it wasnt. In fact you are the only person who seems to know this. Read page 2 of the Sunday Times. Polyisocyanurate is fire-resistant but burns at high temperatures emitting deadly toxins including hydrogen cyanide. Celotex on their website has documentation specifically warning users and designers to be aware of regulations concerning buildings 'with a storey height of over 18m' They tested it as safe when used with cladding formed of mineral composites. They did not test it with cladding formed of plastic foam sandwiched between thin aluminium or zinc sheets, that would bridge the fire stops. Which does not contradict what is in the Sunday Times article. -- Michael Chare --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#17
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
Michael Chare Wrote in message:
On 18/06/2017 11:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote: A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. Unlikely, since it wasnt. In fact you are the only person who seems to know this. Read page 2 of the Sunday Times. Polyisocyanurate is fire-resistant but burns at high temperatures emitting deadly toxins including hydrogen cyanide. Did they define "high temperatures"? Celotex on their website has documentation specifically warning users and designers to be aware of regulations concerning buildings 'with a storey height of over 18m' They tested it as safe when used with cladding formed of mineral composites. They did not test it with cladding formed of plastic foam sandwiched between thin aluminium or zinc sheets, that would bridge the fire stops. Which does not contradict what is in the Sunday Times article. -- Jim K ----Android NewsGroup Reader---- http://usenet.sinaapp.com/ |
#18
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/17 22:38, Michael Chare wrote:
On 18/06/2017 11:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote: A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. Unlikely, since it wasnt. In fact you are the only person who seems to know this. Read page 2 of the Sunday Times. Polyisocyanurate is fire-resistant but burns at high temperatures emitting deadly toxins including hydrogen cyanide. what the **** does the sunday times know? even you dont know what 'burning' means Celotex on their website has documentation specifically warning users and designers to be aware of regulations concerning buildings 'with a storey height of over 18m' They tested it as safe when used with cladding formed of mineral composites. They did not test it with cladding formed of plastic foam sandwiched between thin aluminium or zinc sheets, that would bridge the fire stops. Which does not contradict what is in the Sunday Times article. -- €œBut what a weak barrier is truth when it stands in the way of an hypothesis!€ Mary Wollstonecraft |
#19
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/2017 22:45, jim wrote:
Michael Chare Wrote in message: On 18/06/2017 11:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote: A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. Unlikely, since it wasnt. In fact you are the only person who seems to know this. Read page 2 of the Sunday Times. Polyisocyanurate is fire-resistant but burns at high temperatures emitting deadly toxins including hydrogen cyanide. Did they define "high temperatures"? No, I presume several hundred deg C The Sunday Times quote a Professor Alan Brookes who might well be: http://www.alanbrookesconsultants.co.uk/ -- Michael Chare --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus |
#20
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
In article ,
Michael Chare wrote: On 18/06/2017 11:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote: A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. Unlikely, since it wasnt. In fact you are the only person who seems to know this. Read page 2 of the Sunday Times. Polyisocyanurate is fire-resistant but burns at high temperatures emitting deadly toxins including hydrogen cyanide. Celotex on their website has documentation specifically warning users and designers to be aware of regulations concerning buildings 'with a storey height of over 18m' They tested it as safe when used with cladding formed of mineral composites. They did not test it with cladding formed of plastic foam sandwiched between thin aluminium or zinc sheets, that would bridge the fire stops. Which does not contradict what is in the Sunday Times article. Read somewhere that Celotex supplied all the materials for the cladding. Now obviously they aren't to blame for supplying materials as ordered - but wonder if, as in the good old days before everything is done on a computer, that someone filling the order would have realised what it was to be used for and raised a warning? -- *Succeed, in spite of management * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#21
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/2017 12:25, Robin wrote:
On 18/06/2017 11:55, Andy Burns wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: Get some and put a blowtorch to it. Celotex insulation does not really burn. Where "not really" means that an external flame will make it burn, giving off a surprising amount of smoke, it will char and and the flame from the foam will sputter out after a few seconds when you take the blowtorch away ... maybe a big slab with lower surface:volume ratio performs better than tests on offcuts of an inch or two? I think the problem here is that when it is in forced ventilation and exposed to a massive radiant energy as it was on the side of the building all bets are off. It did survive remarkably well considering but it almost certainly added to the fuel load since in extremis it will burn/char (but plenty of charred bits remained on the building and had fallen to the ground where they went out). Celotex or Celotex FR5000? The former is Class 1, the latter Class 0. When I fitted Celotex in the loft here I reckoned that by the time a fire had gone through the plasterboard into the loft I'd either be out or dead. And that the Victorian rafters and joists would go up like the proverbial in any event. Actually the heavy Victorian beams don't go up all that easily. It takes a lot of heat and time to get a 12x4 joist to catch light. It burns the corners off first and if the heat source is removed goes out again. One reason for having some rodent control in lofts is they like to nibble the insulation off mains cables. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
#22
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote:
A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. I have considered putting some Celotex in my attic and then covering it with thin plywood so that I could walk on it but I have rather gone off the idea, though if the house catches fire badly, I am unlikely to want to go in the attic. I covered mine (80%) in plasterboard. Got electrical apparatus (SELV PSUs and Zwave dimmer modules) mounted on double plasterboard. |
#23
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
"Michael Chare" wrote in message news
On 18/06/2017 22:45, jim wrote: Michael Chare Wrote in message: On 18/06/2017 11:35, The Natural Philosopher wrote: On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote: A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. Unlikely, since it wasnt. In fact you are the only person who seems to know this. Read page 2 of the Sunday Times. Polyisocyanurate is fire-resistant but burns at high temperatures emitting deadly toxins including hydrogen cyanide. Did they define "high temperatures"? No, I presume several hundred deg C 450 https://www.dyplastproducts.com/msds-isoc1 The Sunday Times quote a Professor Alan Brookes who might well be: http://www.alanbrookesconsultants.co.uk/ |
#24
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/2017 14:42, Adam Aglionby wrote:
On Sunday, June 18, 2017 at 12:25:10 PM UTC+1, Robin wrote: On 18/06/2017 11:55, Andy Burns wrote: The Natural Philosopher wrote: Get some and put a blowtorch to it. Celotex insulation does not really burn. Where "not really" means that an external flame will make it burn, giving off a surprising amount of smoke, it will char and and the flame from the foam will sputter out after a few seconds when you take the blowtorch away ... maybe a big slab with lower surface:volume ratio performs better than tests on offcuts of an inch or two? Celotex or Celotex FR5000? The former is Class 1, the latter Class 0. Reynobond PE is Class 0 as well.... But *only* in the UK where apparently different laws of physics and chemistry apply to in the rest of the world if the makers datasheet is to be believed. What this shows is that our fire testing standards are woefully inadequate (and seriously out of date). Also that architects here seem remarkably unaware of major high rise fire incidents overseas. British Standard "Class 0" in this instance the BS stand for Bull****. I don't believe that they can have ever tested the PE variant or if they did then there is something fundamentally wrong with their methodology. Probably tested against a thick inert concrete wall... There is another nasty in that with this Reynobond PE crap rated as UK Class 0 it can be used anywhere inside a building not just as cladding. In some locations that can compromise fire evacuation routes. Even applying truly Class 0 rated material over walls covered in many old coats of paint can seriously compromise the fire rating (which is based on it being on a clean inert wall of plaster or concrete). See http://www.hubdean.co.uk/fire-protec...hat-is-class-0 Hammond was on yesterday claiming that "his understanding" was that the PE variant was banned on tall buildings in the UK too but that remains to be seen. If it was UK Class 0 just like the FR then I don't see how anyone can be prosecuted for taking that specification at face value. (Even though good engineers ought to know that the stuff was flammable) When I fitted Celotex in the loft here I reckoned that by the time a fire had gone through the plasterboard into the loft I'd either be out or dead. And that the Victorian rafters and joists would go up like the proverbial in any event. Fires can potentially start in the loft if a critter nibbles a mains cable and becomes a charred heating element as a result. ELCB usually kicks in at that point. Squirrels and rats are the worst for this. -- Regards, Martin Brown |
#25
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
In article ,
Martin Brown wrote: (Even though good engineers ought to know that the stuff was flammable) This really is the point. I read on social media the next day the actual spec of this stuff and that it was banned for this use in other countries. So hardly a secret. I must be alone in not understanding how anyone could be in the position of specifying such a material on a multi-million pound project and so out of touch. Sadly, the alternatives don't bear thinking about. -- *Cleaned by Stevie Wonder, checked by David Blunkett* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#26
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/2017 12:20, Adrian Caspersz wrote:
On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote: A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. The last renovation work was visible, done to make the tower more presentable to the nearby nimby wealthy residents. The media have been directed to criticise this, taking the flak away from council failure specify install water tanks, install sprinklers, and perform regular maintenance. Little to do with celotex. Perhaps, there should be a contest to design heat resistant external stairwells, that could be retrofitted to old tower blocks. Celotex would probably be good for that. External stairwells, which some tower blocks have, only need to be made of fire-resistant material like reinforced concrete. If the main fire is in the building then the external stairwell is unaffected. But this is social housing, where people think nothing of dumping old mattresses and other junk at the bottom. Plus the problem with vandals, druggies leaving needles etc etc. |
#27
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 18/06/2017 13:54, Tim Streater wrote:
In article , Adrian Caspersz wrote: On 18/06/17 11:16, Michael Chare wrote: A nearby wooden bungalow was refurbished and the insulation improved with Celotex a few years ago. I wonder if the occupants know that was the stuff on the outside of Grenfell tower that burns at high temperatures and gives off toxic fumes. The last renovation work was visible, done to make the tower more presentable to the nearby nimby wealthy residents. The media have been directed to criticise this, taking the flak away from council failure specify install water tanks, install sprinklers, and perform regular maintenance. Little to do with celotex. Perhaps, there should be a contest to design heat resistant external stairwells, that could be retrofitted to old tower blocks. Celotex would probably be good for that. While any such block should have two staircases, where would one actually put such a staircase - unless you sacrifice at least one of the flats on each floor? I saw a floor layout the other day, looked to me like any such staircase would be outside someone's window. Lots of space round the building, so build another tower block about 20 feet away and join them every 5 floors with fire-resistant walkways, losing one flat in every 5 floors from the original. That way any front door security system will keep out the unwanted. |
#28
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 14:31:21 +0100, Martin Brown
wrote: Hammond was on yesterday claiming that "his understanding" was that the PE variant was banned on tall buildings in the UK too but that remains to be seen. If it was UK Class 0 just like the FR then I don't see how anyone can be prosecuted for taking that specification at face value. Sadly it would seem Class O really means bugger all. https://www.arconic.com/aap/europe/p...age_042014.pdf http://www.bbacerts.co.uk/Certificat.../4510PS1i1.pdf -- |
#29
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
In article ,
Tim Streater wrote: Where would you put an external stairwell? How would anyone access it - there'd have to be access on each floor, and apart I presume from the ground floor where the front doors are, every point on the outside of the building is the outside of someone's flat. You'd have to sacrifice accommodation. Quite a few tower blocks where the stairs are more like a separate building. Access to that need be no more wasteful of space than to an internal one. -- *I just got lost in thought. It was unfamiliar territory* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#30
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article , Tim Streater wrote: Where would you put an external stairwell? How would anyone access it - there'd have to be access on each floor, and apart I presume from the ground floor where the front doors are, every point on the outside of the building is the outside of someone's flat. You'd have to sacrifice accommodation. Quite a few tower blocks where the stairs are more like a separate building. Access to that need be no more wasteful of space than to an internal one. LMFAO, with all that fuel, where TF are you to go? Mind you, I daresay that Dave would exit with not even a jot of 1cc of coleslaw. Then again, he votes Labour, fireproof. |
#31
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 19/06/2017 21:43, Tim Streater wrote:
Where would you put an external stairwell? How would anyone access it - there'd have to be access on each floor, and apart I presume from the ground floor where the front doors are, every point on the outside of the building is the outside of someone's flat. You'd have to sacrifice accommodation. Make one or two of the two bed flats into a one bed flats, according to some there is a real shortage of one bed flats to avoid the bedroom tax. |
#32
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
In article . com,
dennis@home wrote: On 19/06/2017 21:43, Tim Streater wrote: Where would you put an external stairwell? How would anyone access it - there'd have to be access on each floor, and apart I presume from the ground floor where the front doors are, every point on the outside of the building is the outside of someone's flat. You'd have to sacrifice accommodation. Make one or two of the two bed flats into a one bed flats, according to some there is a real shortage of one bed flats to avoid the bedroom tax. Brilliant thinking. The purpose of the bedroom tax was to get people out of accommodation larger than they need to release it for those more deserving. Allegedly. Rather than just to tax the poor more. -- *When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#33
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message ... In article . com, dennis@home wrote: On 19/06/2017 21:43, Tim Streater wrote: Where would you put an external stairwell? How would anyone access it - there'd have to be access on each floor, and apart I presume from the ground floor where the front doors are, every point on the outside of the building is the outside of someone's flat. You'd have to sacrifice accommodation. Make one or two of the two bed flats into a one bed flats, according to some there is a real shortage of one bed flats to avoid the bedroom tax. Brilliant thinking. The purpose of the bedroom tax was to get people out of accommodation larger than they need to release it for those more deserving. Allegedly. Rather than just to tax the poor more. -- *When the chips are down, the buffalo is empty* Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
#34
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
In message , at 10:32:08 on Tue, 20 Jun
2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked: Make one or two of the two bed flats into a one bed flats, according to some there is a real shortage of one bed flats to avoid the bedroom tax. Brilliant thinking. The purpose of the bedroom tax was to get people out of accommodation larger than they need to release it for those more deserving. Allegedly. Rather than just to tax the poor more. It's not of course a "tax" at all, but a cap on the amount of housing benefit that's paid, having looked at your needs and the accommodation in question[1]. Converging with a question asked in another(?) thread earlier, they also cap the benefit to the rental of an average(?) property of the size that it's determined you qualify for. If you are in rented accommodation (private or council) then it will tend to encourage people to downsize, leaving the larger properties available for larger households. Assuming you can even still get housing benefit as an owner-occupier, they are the ones most likely to be under-funded. [1] For example, a family of parents and two children won't qualify for more than a three-bedroom house. So if you happen to be living in a five bedroom house, that two "extraneous" rooms. -- Roland Perry |
#35
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
In message , at 11:35:02 on
Tue, 20 Jun 2017, Tim Streater remarked: Make one or two of the two bed flats into a one bed flats, according to some there is a real shortage of one bed flats to avoid the bedroom tax. Brilliant thinking. The purpose of the bedroom tax was to get people out of accommodation larger than they need to release it for those more deserving. Allegedly. Rather than just to tax the poor more. It's not of course a "tax" at all, but a cap on the amount of housing benefit that's paid, having looked at your needs and the accommodation in question[1]. Perhaps Dave could explain in what way it's a tax. HMRC collects it, do they? Branding something a "tax" is just a popularist nickname. Just like *raising* the social care means test threshold from £23k to £100k is called a "dementure tax". (And dementure isn't the sole reason why people need social care, either). -- Roland Perry |
#36
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On 20/06/17 11:45, Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 11:35:02 on Tue, 20 Jun 2017, Tim Streater remarked: Make one or two of the two bed flats into a one bed flats, according to some there is a real shortage of one bed flats to avoid the bedroom tax. Brilliant thinking. The purpose of the bedroom tax was to get people out of accommodation larger than they need to release it for those more deserving. Allegedly. Rather than just to tax the poor more. It's not of course a "tax" at all, but a cap on the amount of housing benefit that's paid, having looked at your needs and the accommodation in question[1]. Perhaps Dave could explain in what way it's a tax. HMRC collects it, do they? Branding something a "tax" is just a popularist nickname. Just like *raising* the social care means test threshold from £23k to £100k is called a "dementure tax". (And dementure isn't the sole reason why people need social care, either). ITYM 'debenture' Shirley? And there was me thinking you axshlly had had a university eddykayshun -- New Socialism consists essentially in being seen to have your heart in the right place whilst your head is in the clouds and your hand is in someone else's pocket. |
#37
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On Mon, 19 Jun 2017 00:54:14 +0100, "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote: Read somewhere that Celotex supplied all the materials for the cladding. Celotex do not supply cladding, nor manufacture it, nor supply materials that could be used in its manufacture, but other than that your source was entirely accurate. -- |
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
On Sun, 18 Jun 2017 16:56:27 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote: Most of the flats around here have two or more staircases. It a case of what the planning department think of cost v safety. Those flats around you are they of a similar date of design and construction? -- |
#39
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
"Roland Perry" wrote in message ... Branding something a "tax" is just a popularist nickname. Just like *raising* the social care means test threshold from £23k to £100k is called a "dementure tax". (And dementure isn't the sole reason why people need social care, either). Finding out whether applicants were able to spell the word "dementia" might be a good place to start, however. michael adams .... |
#40
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Grenfell Tower - Celotex
In article ,
Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:32:08 on Tue, 20 Jun 2017, "Dave Plowman (News)" remarked: Make one or two of the two bed flats into a one bed flats, according to some there is a real shortage of one bed flats to avoid the bedroom tax. Brilliant thinking. The purpose of the bedroom tax was to get people out of accommodation larger than they need to release it for those more deserving. Allegedly. Rather than just to tax the poor more. It's not of course a "tax" at all, but a cap on the amount of housing benefit that's paid, having looked at your needs and the accommodation in question[1]. Now comment on how that differs from the point I was replying to. Converging with a question asked in another(?) thread earlier, they also cap the benefit to the rental of an average(?) property of the size that it's determined you qualify for. If you are in rented accommodation (private or council) then it will tend to encourage people to downsize, leaving the larger properties available for larger households. Assuming you can even still get housing benefit as an owner-occupier, they are the ones most likely to be under-funded. [1] For example, a family of parents and two children won't qualify for more than a three-bedroom house. So if you happen to be living in a five bedroom house, that two "extraneous" rooms. All very good. Now explain how making an exiting property smaller would meet any of those objectives. Unless there were an excess of larger properties. In which case the bedroom tax *would* have been simply punitive. -- *Succeed, in spite of management * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
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