On 03/01/2017 11:47, charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
If you had run that cable in such a stupid way you'd be likely to
remember you did it?

Except at that time, the IEE didn't stipulate what constituted stupid
routing of cables. I thought it was well before safe-zones.

Hmm. Would you run a cable diagonally across a wall? Regulations or not?

Common sense says you wouldn't.

I had to once, becasue of a chimney in the way - but I put a galvanised
channel over it.

A galvanised channel would not have the mechanical protection now
required. You would need 3mm thick steel.

On 03/01/2017 15:32, mechanic wrote:
On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 19:52:06 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

Yes it still uses the word "work" to be paid for work on gas.

Let's look at the code of practice for these regulations, perhaps
they will help you to understand the point. My copy/paste may have
mangled things a bit nut hopefully the intentions are clear:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l56.htm

original legislation, regulation3:

"(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."

Guidance 2(1):
para 51: For the purposes of these Regulations, ¡¥work¡¦ includes
do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends
and relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward
or gain, eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that
anyone carrying out such work must have the necessary competence, as
required by regulation 3(1).

-OK that clears up the point that the regs only apply to paid work,
wrong!

What about competence?

I don't understand why you keep referring to this deceptive leaflet. Its
a great shame don't understand, or worse still, deny, that Gas Safe's
definition of 'work' is gainful remuneration in respect of working on gas.

See above for the definition of 'work' in the legislation.

You've already been told to look at the primary legislation which you've
chosen not to. Look at:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1.../made/data.pdf
"3.¡X(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."

Note the sexist language but this was 1998!
OK but what does competent mean?

ACOP guidance 3(1)-(2), para 82:

"Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be
competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member
of an approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas
engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all
need to have the required competence. The level and range of
competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only
to be sufficient for and relevant to that work.
83 Employers of gas engineers are also required under regulation
3(2) to ensure that their employees have the required competence for
the work undertaken; in addition to ensuring they are properly
experienced and trained (see paragraph 86).
This involves ongoing monitoring of performance standards, as
necessary.

(note para 84) Competence is a combination of practical skill,
training, knowledge and experience to carry out the job in hand
safely, and ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition
for use. Knowledge must be kept up-to-date with changes in the
law, technology and safe working practice.

Paragraphs 2 and 3 refer to anyone "working" with gas in a business,
such as those who are employed and self-employed.

I repeat anyone competent to work on gas may do so. It means if you're
competent and can follow some simple rules you can safely install your
own boiler.

You're missing the point, summarised earlier in para 80 of the code
of practice:

Gas work should only be undertaken:
(a) by a person who has successfully completed an
industry-recognised training course followed by assessment of
competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe
gas work should be recognised by the industry¡¦s standards setting
body; or
(various exceptions)

I hope this clarifies this issue for you? 'Competence' must be
demonstrable, not just self-assessed!

Yes, it says "SHOULD" not must or any other statutory requirement to
complete any course and be assessed..

If you understand the difference between "SHOULD" and "MUST" you can now
agree it is not illegal to carry out your own gas work.

As others have indicated many have fallen in to the trap Gas Safe from
their lies and deception.

On 03/01/2017 15:42, mechanic wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:22:04 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The snag is there are idiots around - both pro and DIY - who
aren't. And no law will make the slightest difference to those.

That's no excuse though, for lack of legislation. There are
shop-lifters around even though it's illegal.

Most deaths and prosecution for faulty installations have been a result
of Gas Safe plumber incompetence.

I'm not sure of your point. The difference is a competent DIYer working
on gas is legal and shoplifting isn't.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
On 03/01/2017 11:47, charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
If you had run that cable in such a stupid way you'd be likely to
remember you did it?

Except at that time, the IEE didn't stipulate what constituted stupid
routing of cables. I thought it was well before safe-zones.

Hmm. Would you run a cable diagonally across a wall? Regulations or not?

Common sense says you wouldn't.

I had to once, becasue of a chimney in the way - but I put a galvanised
channel over it.

A galvanised channel would not have the mechanical protection now
required. You would need 3mm thick steel.

But, I did this in 1967. It was quite safe then.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
I had to once, becasue of a chimney in the way - but I put a galvanised
channel over it.

A galvanised channel would not have the mechanical protection now
required. You would need 3mm thick steel.

I've often wondered what would be 100% proof to those hardened picture
hook nails?

--
*Everyone has a photographic memory. Some don't have film *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 27/12/2016 18:42, F wrote:
I generally work on the principle that if it's not broke you don't fix
it unless, like a car engine, for example, it clearly needs some TLC
like an oil change from time-to-time.

So how often does a boiler *need* to be serviced?

IME
It doesn't. Not unless you need a landlords safety thing but that I
shouldn't wonder is some ill informed regulation bought to be by the
industry that thrives through fearmongering based on the possibility of
antique legacy devices that might still be in use.

I'd suggest that things that don't have "consumables" to be replaced
like engine oil and air filters are more likely to break down between
annual prodding than things that are left well alone.

You see more horror stories of gas-safe "sales" f*ckwits tampering with
things that didn't need twiddling and subsequently breaking them, add to
that, a high majority of public still naively trust British Gas but all
the annual service is to them is an opportunity go get through the door
to say your boiler needs replacing, isn't big enough or is oversized for
your house etc etc. £££

On my home condensing boiler I regularly drain the syphon to which I
pushed an O-ring into the drain cap to make sealing/removal easier and
with less force than as standard.
I've also had to replace the pump and the diverter valve actuator
(twice) and break open the wet condenser side when a fault code implied
the heat exchanger/siphon might be blocked thereby needing to replace
all O rings that had gone hard/square before I could re-assemble it.

My non-condensing boiler at the shop (Valiant turbomax) is now over 15
years old. Runs flat out for 12 hours a day from autumn to spring and
has never broken down except for a few weeks ago. An ignition failure
code kept appearing so I removed the cover, removed the burner cover and
simply cleaned the white oxide from the thermocouple flame sensor,
re-assembled and off we go. 5 minute job. sorted. No "servicing" has
ever been done on that one.

But it really comes down to personal peace of mind.
Just do what you feel most comfortable with.

On 03/01/2017 21:17, charles wrote:

But, I did this in 1967. It was quite safe then.

But it wouldn't have prevented a picture hook nail from going through
the cable.

Steel capping provides no protection for cables apart from stopping the
plasterer's trowel from cutting them. I once came across a picture hook
nail that had gone through the capping and neatly penetrated the live
conductor of some 7/.029 with 3 strands one side and 4 the other.
Surprisingly it had been like that for many years with nobody aware of
the problem until the cable was exposed when adding an extra socket.

--
Mike Clarke

On 03/01/2017 21:03, Fredxxx wrote:
Most deaths and prosecution for faulty installations have been a result
of Gas Safe plumber incompetence.

Statistically that's not surprising because most installations are done
bu registered installers.

--
Mike Clarke

In article ,
Mike Clarke wrote:
On 03/01/2017 21:17, charles wrote:

But, I did this in 1967. It was quite safe then.

But it wouldn't have prevented a picture hook nail from going through
the cable.

I think it would. It certainly stopped a masonry bit in a hand drill when
I was, a few years later, hanging a cupboard.

Steel capping provides no protection for cables apart from stopping the
plasterer's trowel from cutting them. I once came across a picture hook
nail that had gone through the capping and neatly penetrated the live
conductor of some 7/.029 with 3 strands one side and 4 the other.
Surprisingly it had been like that for many years with nobody aware of
the problem until the cable was exposed when adding an extra socket.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
charles wrote:
But it wouldn't have prevented a picture hook nail from going through
the cable.

I think it would. It certainly stopped a masonry bit in a hand drill
when I was, a few years later, hanging a cupboard.

A masonry drill is extremely poor at drilling steel. A small very sharp
hardened nail, on the other hand...

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
charles wrote:
But it wouldn't have prevented a picture hook nail from going through
the cable.

I think it would. It certainly stopped a masonry bit in a hand drill
when I was, a few years later, hanging a cupboard.

A masonry drill is extremely poor at drilling steel. A small very sharp
hardened nail, on the other hand...

If there was no plaster on top it would probably skid off. However, as I
said, this was nearly 50 years ago. At the time, steel channeling was
considered excessive by some.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:03:41 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

The difference is a competent DIYer working on gas is legal and
shoplifting isn't.

That argument hinges on the word 'competent'. Insurance
loss-adjusters and others might require documented evidence of this
'competence' of which you speak.

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:03:41 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

The difference is a competent DIYer working on gas is legal and
shoplifting isn't.

That argument hinges on the word 'competent'. Insurance
loss-adjusters and others might require documented evidence of this
'competence' of which you speak.

And would they check the qualifications of a pro who had caused a fire too?

To prove just what actually caused a fire isn't as easy as you might
think. Easy enough - possibly - to say it started in a faulty water heater
or whatever. But to decide what that fault was and who was responsible in
law is a different matter.

But as I keep on saying - if you know yourself not to be competent to work
on gas - or anything else come to that, other than Meccano - leave it to a
pro. Just don't keep trying to tell those on here who are competent to DIY
they are breaking some law a trade body has invented.

--
*IS THERE ANOTHER WORD FOR SYNONYM?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Wednesday, 4 January 2017 14:35:17 UTC, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:03:41 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

The difference is a competent DIYer working on gas is legal and
shoplifting isn't.

That argument hinges on the word 'competent'. Insurance
loss-adjusters and others might require documented evidence of this
'competence' of which you speak.

And would they check the qualifications of a pro who had caused a fire too?

To prove just what actually caused a fire isn't as easy as you might
think. Easy enough - possibly - to say it started in a faulty water heater
or whatever. But to decide what that fault was and who was responsible in
law is a different matter.

It's a big pile of charcoal or ash.

But as I keep on saying - if you know yourself not to be competent to work
on gas - or anything else come to that, other than Meccano - leave it to a
pro.

Or learn. That's primarily what we're here for.

Just don't keep trying to tell those on here who are competent to DIY
they are breaking some law a trade body has invented.


NT

On 04/01/2017 08:56, Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬) wrote:
On 27/12/2016 18:42, F wrote:
I generally work on the principle that if it's not broke you don't fix
it unless, like a car engine, for example, it clearly needs some TLC
like an oil change from time-to-time.

So how often does a boiler *need* to be serviced?

IME
It doesn't. Not unless you need a landlords safety thing

I don't think there is any requirement for a Landlord's Safety Cert to
have had the boiler serviced. Even if it may be smart to have both done
at the same time.

"mechanic" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:03:41 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

The difference is a competent DIYer working on gas is legal and
shoplifting isn't.

That argument hinges on the word 'competent'. Insurance
loss-adjusters and others might require documented
evidence of this 'competence' of which you speak.

No they don't and there are no others involved.

In article ,
wrote:
But as I keep on saying - if you know yourself not to be competent to
work on gas - or anything else come to that, other than Meccano -
leave it to a pro.

Or learn. That's primarily what we're here for.

I'd guess Mr Mechanic is actually a registered gas fitter trying to
protect his employment. And nothing wrong with that. Except for the duff
gen.

--
*I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 04/01/2017 11:47, mechanic wrote:
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:03:41 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

The difference is a competent DIYer working on gas is legal and
shoplifting isn't.

That argument hinges on the word 'competent'. Insurance
loss-adjusters and others might require documented evidence of this
'competence' of which you speak.

At long last you have seen the light, that DIY gas work is legal.

Phew, that was hard.

On 04/01/2017 20:05, Rod Speed wrote:


"mechanic" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 3 Jan 2017 21:03:41 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

The difference is a competent DIYer working on gas is legal and
shoplifting isn't.

That argument hinges on the word 'competent'. Insurance
loss-adjusters and others might require documented
evidence of this 'competence' of which you speak.

No they don't and there are no others involved.

I'm not aware of any insurance payouts that were refused due to DIY work
on gas.

BICBW.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
I'm not aware of any insurance payouts that were refused due to DIY work
on gas.

Not quite sure why they'd refuse to pay up on the basis of a DIYer's
competence or not, but pay up happily when a pro f**ks up? Which
statistically is far more likely.

--
*Upon the advice of my attorney, my shirt bears no message at this time

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 02/01/2017 11:33, ARW wrote:
On 30/12/2016 01:41, bm wrote:

Reminds me of my AA payment. I subscribe to "the works" in case my
campervan
needs to be transported somewhere.
Last year they wanted £140, phoned them (fully prepared to cancel) and it
decreased to £110.
This year the same. We don't complain enough.
They actually have a menu containing "press 2 if you are thinking of
leaving."

Thanks for the reminder.

I phone the AA every year and ask for a discount and the renewal price
always gets dropped.

However this year I am going to leave them (for my own use not works use).

WE, and daughters, have been with www.autoaidbreakdown.co.uk for years.
A couple of claims settled quickly and without fuss.

--
F

On 06/01/2017 00:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
I'm not aware of any insurance payouts that were refused due to DIY work
on gas.

Not quite sure why they'd refuse to pay up on the basis of a DIYer's
competence or not, but pay up happily when a pro f**ks up? Which
statistically is far more likely.

Whether you would get insurance again is a mute point, however my belief
is the same as yours.

If you did something legal I don't see how they would withhold payment.
I've not seen small print saying that gas fittings must be worked on by
someone belonging to Gas Safe any more I have seen a clause saying a
stair carpet must be fitted by someone belonging to an equivalent
association.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
On 06/01/2017 00:37, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
I'm not aware of any insurance payouts that were refused due to DIY work
on gas.

Not quite sure why they'd refuse to pay up on the basis of a DIYer's
competence or not, but pay up happily when a pro f**ks up? Which
statistically is far more likely.

Whether you would get insurance again is a mute point, however my belief
is the same as yours.

If you did something legal I don't see how they would withhold payment.
I've not seen small print saying that gas fittings must be worked on by
someone belonging to Gas Safe any more I have seen a clause saying a
stair carpet must be fitted by someone belonging to an equivalent
association.

True. Doesn't stop many throwing in 'your insurance company will refuse a
claim' thingie, though.

As if that would worry me. I've never claimed anything on my home
insurance anyway.

--
*I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.