On Friday, 30 December 2016 19:01:19 UTC, ARW wrote:
On 28/12/2016 01:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim+ wrote:
So, unless you can get boiler specific advice, I think an occasional
service *before* a breakdown probably isn't a bad idea.

Not actually convinced regular servicing makes any difference to the
number of breakdowns. It might make more sense to wait for a breakdown and
have a 'service' then.



But it makes sense for the owner to do regular
inspections to check for water leaks


I thought that water leaks made themselves a bit obvious!

Not always. I recently found one when pulling an appliance out - the slab was saturated, but no visible sign of problem until appliance pulled out.


NT

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 00:57:11 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2016 22:20:34 +0000, Bob Minchin wrote:

Annual service cost for the typical lifetime of
the boiler will be pretty close to the price of a new one.

That's what insurance is all about. Really useful at the end of the
period when spares may not be available and replacement is the only
option.

You have an insurance policy which will pay to replace the boiler when
spares are no longer available? How much does it cost a year?

We were talking W-B, who quote 10yrs warranty included in the
installed price.

If WB provide a 10 year warranty, I'd expect them to keep spares available
throughout that period? If not, how can they honour that warranty?

--
*See no evil, Hear no evil, Date no evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 01:41:28 -0000, bm wrote:

I reckon it's ~£17 per month (from tv adverts) that's ~£200 a year.
10 years and you've paid for 2 boilers.

£2k for two boilers, installed? I don't think so.

Quite possible if you find an honest plumber.

More than possible if you DIY.

--
*Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
ARW wrote:
On 28/12/2016 01:09, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Tim+ wrote:
So, unless you can get boiler specific advice, I think an occasional
service *before* a breakdown probably isn't a bad idea.

Not actually convinced regular servicing makes any difference to the
number of breakdowns. It might make more sense to wait for a breakdown and
have a 'service' then.



But it makes sense for the owner to do regular
inspections to check for water leaks


I thought that water leaks made themselves a bit obvious!

Depends on how big the leak is.

--
*Elephants are the only mammals that can't jump *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 00:57:11 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Wed, 28 Dec 2016 22:20:34 +0000, Bob Minchin wrote:

Annual service cost for the typical lifetime of
the boiler will be pretty close to the price of a new one.

That's what insurance is all about. Really useful at the end of the
period when spares may not be available and replacement is the only
option.

You have an insurance policy which will pay to replace the boiler when
spares are no longer available? How much does it cost a year?

We were talking W-B, who quote 10yrs warranty included in the
installed price.

If WB provide a 10 year warranty, I'd expect them to keep spares available
throughout that period? If not, how can they honour that warranty?

They can replace it with the latest model if they need to.
That is how it works with most stuff now.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 00:56:58 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 01:41:28 -0000, bm wrote:

I reckon it's ~£17 per month (from tv adverts) that's ~£200 a year.
10 years and you've paid for 2 boilers.

£2k for two boilers, installed? I don't think so.

Quite possible if you find an honest plumber.

More than possible if you DIY.

http://www.boilersprices.co.uk/worce...oilers-prices/
- shows prices across the range. The really low end ones come in at
less than £1k, but then you need a Gas-safe registered installer to
make it all legal. Are you registered?

On 31/12/2016 15:45, mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 00:56:58 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 01:41:28 -0000, bm wrote:

I reckon it's ~£17 per month (from tv adverts) that's ~£200 a year.
10 years and you've paid for 2 boilers.

£2k for two boilers, installed? I don't think so.

Quite possible if you find an honest plumber.

More than possible if you DIY.

http://www.boilersprices.co.uk/worce...oilers-prices/
- shows prices across the range. The really low end ones come in at
less than £1k, but then you need a Gas-safe registered installer to
make it all legal. Are you registered?

What makes you think you need to be registered to fit a boiler for free,
including your own boiler?

I grant you there are some exceptions like a landlord can't fit a
tenant's boiler but can you cite the statute that says I can't fit my
own boiler in my own house?

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 00:56:58 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 01:41:28 -0000, bm wrote:

I reckon it's ~£17 per month (from tv adverts) that's ~£200 a year.
10 years and you've paid for 2 boilers.

£2k for two boilers, installed? I don't think so.

Quite possible if you find an honest plumber.

More than possible if you DIY.

http://www.boilersprices.co.uk/worce...oilers-prices/
- shows prices across the range. The really low end ones come in at
less than £1k, but then you need a Gas-safe registered installer to
make it all legal. Are you registered?

Why would I need to be registered to fit my own boiler?

--
*There are 3 kinds of people: those who can count & those who can't.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
http://www.boilersprices.co.uk/worce...oilers-prices/
- shows prices across the range. The really low end ones come in at
less than £1k, but then you need a Gas-safe registered installer to
make it all legal. Are you registered?

What makes you think you need to be registered to fit a boiler for free,
including your own boiler?

I grant you there are some exceptions like a landlord can't fit a
tenant's boiler but can you cite the statute that says I can't fit my
own boiler in my own house?

It was a Viessmann system boiler I fitted. Bought new at a very good
discount from Ebay. Viessmann technical were very helpful with the weather
compensation mods - even having been told it was a DIY installation. (the
instructions for configuring the boiler to w.c. after changing the
programmer seemed to have been written in Klingon.)

--
*What boots up must come down *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 15:52:19 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

What makes you think you need to be registered to fit a boiler for free,
including your own boiler?

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/me...-factsheet.pdf

On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 16:10:57 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Why would I need to be registered to fit my own boiler?

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/me...-factsheet.pdf

mechanic wrote
Fredxxx wrote

What makes you think you need to be registered to
fit a boiler for free, including your own boiler?

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/me...-factsheet.pdf

That says nothing about what you can legally do with your own boiler.

On Sun, 01 Jan 2017 20:25:43 +0000, mechanic wrote:

On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 15:52:19 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

What makes you think you need to be registered to fit a boiler for
free,
including your own boiler?

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/me...lly-work-on-a-
gas-appliance-factsheet.pdf

They would say that, wouldn't they?

In fact, the *law* says that you may do gas work if you are 'competent',
as long as it is not done for reward; in that case you do not have to be
on the Gas Safe Register (or in the 'class of persons', as the
legislation has it).



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 00:56:58 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 01:41:28 -0000, bm wrote:

I reckon it's ~£17 per month (from tv adverts) that's ~£200 a year.
10 years and you've paid for 2 boilers.

£2k for two boilers, installed? I don't think so.

Quite possible if you find an honest plumber.

More than possible if you DIY.

http://www.boilersprices.co.uk/worce...oilers-prices/
- shows prices across the range. The really low end ones come in at
less than £1k, but then you need a Gas-safe registered installer to
make it all legal. Are you registered?

Why would I need to be registered to fit my own boiler?

As I see it, I doubt you'd be covered by insurance if it burnt the house
down etc.
You know what the buggers are like.
I fitted the gas fire but it worries me.

On 01/01/2017 20:25, mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 15:52:19 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

What makes you think you need to be registered to fit a boiler for free,
including your own boiler?

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/me...-factsheet.pdf

Thank you. Gas Safe definition of "work" is a professional, being paid.

The article uses obfuscation as a means of promoting its own ends. I
recommend you look at the primary legislation which your linked document
conveniently leaves out.

On 01/01/2017 23:10, bm wrote:
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 00:56:58 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 01:41:28 -0000, bm wrote:

I reckon it's ~£17 per month (from tv adverts) that's ~£200 a year.
10 years and you've paid for 2 boilers.

£2k for two boilers, installed? I don't think so.

Quite possible if you find an honest plumber.

More than possible if you DIY.

http://www.boilersprices.co.uk/worce...oilers-prices/
- shows prices across the range. The really low end ones come in at
less than £1k, but then you need a Gas-safe registered installer to
make it all legal. Are you registered?

Why would I need to be registered to fit my own boiler?

As I see it, I doubt you'd be covered by insurance if it burnt the house
down etc.
You know what the buggers are like.
I fitted the gas fire but it worries me.

Are you suggesting that unless you employ a professional cook you're not
covered from a chip-fat fire?

The fitting of a boiler is detailed in any installation manual. It is
not rocket science with the major issues being the path of the pipework
(assuming you change it), calculating the pressure drop and leak
testing. There are further issues if fitted to a timber frame house etc.

For the average DIYer the main issue will be not being able to check
combustion gases without hiring or purchasing a gas analyser.

On 30/12/2016 01:41, bm wrote:

Reminds me of my AA payment. I subscribe to "the works" in case my campervan
needs to be transported somewhere.
Last year they wanted £140, phoned them (fully prepared to cancel) and it
decreased to £110.
This year the same. We don't complain enough.
They actually have a menu containing "press 2 if you are thinking of
leaving."

Thanks for the reminder.

I phone the AA every year and ask for a discount and the renewal price
always gets dropped.

However this year I am going to leave them (for my own use not works use).




--
Adam

On 31/12/2016 16:10, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 00:56:58 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2016 01:41:28 -0000, bm wrote:

I reckon it's ~£17 per month (from tv adverts) that's ~£200 a year.
10 years and you've paid for 2 boilers.

£2k for two boilers, installed? I don't think so.

Quite possible if you find an honest plumber.

More than possible if you DIY.

http://www.boilersprices.co.uk/worce...oilers-prices/
- shows prices across the range. The really low end ones come in at
less than £1k, but then you need a Gas-safe registered installer to
make it all legal. Are you registered?

Why would I need to be registered to fit my own boiler?


To save the wank Gas Safe registered installers killing you?

--
Adam

Fredxxx wrote:

On 01/01/2017 20:25, mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 15:52:19 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

What makes you think you need to be registered to fit a boiler for free,
including your own boiler?


https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/me...y-work-on-a-ga
s-appliance-factsheet.pdf

Thank you. Gas Safe definition of "work" is a professional, being paid.

The article uses obfuscation as a means of promoting its own ends. I
recommend you look at the primary legislation which your linked document
conveniently leaves out.

I think you are being too kind. It says in so many words that you may
not take the cover off your own boiler, if it involves dismantiing.
Since it is unlikely that anyone would pay you to do this, I interpret
this as a plain lie about the law - although no doubt sufficient
sophistry would allow them to argue that if you don't know they're lying
you aren't competent for the purpose; and therefore that they are
telling the truth!

--

Roger Hayter

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 16:10:57 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Why would I need to be registered to fit my own boiler?

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/me...-factsheet.pdf


Quoting how a trade organisation interprets a law might be fine for you -
but doesn't mean it is the law. Basically they are telling half truths at
best.

What they do mean - but don't say it - is this only applies to tradesman.
It is lies as regards DIY in your own property.

Corgi before them tried exactly the same con.

However, since you obviously believe working on gas requires some sort of
black magic skills, best you personally leave it to a registered pro. And
hope he is actually competent. As the vast majority of fires etc caused by
faulty gas appliances and pipework involved pro installations.

Put it this way. If a competent DIYer can install and entire house's
plumbing including the central heating in copper well and safely, why
would it need some form of 'highly trained' pro to modify gas piping?

--
*When a man opens a car door for his wife, it's either a new car or a new

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 12:24:50 +0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Quoting how a trade organisation interprets a law might be fine for you
-
but doesn't mean it is the law. Basically they are telling half truths
at best.

What they do mean - but don't say it - is this only applies to
tradesman.
It is lies as regards DIY in your own property.

Corgi before them tried exactly the same con.

And the name Corgi is now associated with a different kind of con.

--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 02/01/2017 12:24, Roger Hayter wrote:
Fredxxx wrote:

On 01/01/2017 20:25, mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 15:52:19 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

What makes you think you need to be registered to fit a boiler for free,
including your own boiler?


https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/me...y-work-on-a-ga
s-appliance-factsheet.pdf

Thank you. Gas Safe definition of "work" is a professional, being paid.

The article uses obfuscation as a means of promoting its own ends. I
recommend you look at the primary legislation which your linked document
conveniently leaves out.

I think you are being too kind. It says in so many words that you may
not take the cover off your own boiler, if it involves dismantiing.

Except paragraph in question is below "What gas work can I do myself?"
"Gas work" usage by Gas Safe, and Corgi before them, implies paid work
and doesn't say I can't take my own cover off.

Since it is unlikely that anyone would pay you to do this, I interpret
this as a plain lie about the law - although no doubt sufficient
sophistry would allow them to argue that if you don't know they're lying
you aren't competent for the purpose; and therefore that they are
telling the truth!

The intention is to use words in such a way to deceive, something I find
more than distasteful.

Like electrical work, the more plausible it is to say a gas plumber did
the work, the less likely for any action to be taken against a DIYer
where he claims he didn't carry out the work. And of course paid 'cash'
for fitting it.

If you recall the dead MP's daughter no one seemed to know who routed
the cable in question. There still isn't any onus on the homeowner to
keep a record of who did what work and when?

On 02/01/2017 12:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Sat, 31 Dec 2016 16:10:57 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Why would I need to be registered to fit my own boiler?

https://www.gassaferegister.co.uk/me...-factsheet.pdf


Quoting how a trade organisation interprets a law might be fine for you -
but doesn't mean it is the law. Basically they are telling half truths at
best.

What they do mean - but don't say it - is this only applies to tradesman.
It is lies as regards DIY in your own property.

Corgi before them tried exactly the same con.

However, since you obviously believe working on gas requires some sort of
black magic skills, best you personally leave it to a registered pro. And
hope he is actually competent. As the vast majority of fires etc caused by
faulty gas appliances and pipework involved pro installations.

Put it this way. If a competent DIYer can install and entire house's
plumbing including the central heating in copper well and safely, why
would it need some form of 'highly trained' pro to modify gas piping?

And is capable of testing leak-tightness. Something that is trivially
easy to do.

I've been less than impressed when watching gas fitters soldering pipes
and the way they don't bother to clean the copper beforehand.

Mind, I've gone OTT and tinned / wiped copper pipe before final
soldering, especially when fitting to older pipework.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
If you recall the dead MP's daughter no one seemed to know who routed
the cable in question. There still isn't any onus on the homeowner to
keep a record of who did what work and when?

If you had run that cable in such a stupid way you'd be likely to remember
you did it?

If it was done before you bought the house, pointless trying to attribute
blame anyway.

--
*And the cardiologist' s diet: - If it tastes good spit it out.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 12:24:50 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Put it this way. If a competent DIYer can install and entire
house's plumbing including the central heating in copper well and
safely, why would it need some form of 'highly trained' pro to
modify gas piping?

Probably the thinking is that the penalty for mistakes is much
higher for gas work. No doubt the gas safe certified installers make
mistakes too (Which? evidences this) but how would anyone know if a
d-i-y installer is 'competent'? Probably the emphasis on H&S comes
from long history of coroner's reports.

On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 11:08:35 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

Thank you. Gas Safe definition of "work" is a professional, being paid.

You're welcome. The definition of 'work' is in terms of activities,
not personal qualities (top of the FAQ I referenced).

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 11:08:35 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

Thank you. Gas Safe definition of "work" is a professional, being paid.

You're welcome. The definition of 'work' is in terms of activities,
not personal qualities (top of the FAQ I referenced).

1. I installed my own boiler in 1988. It hasn't blown up yet.

2. I asked the man who services our theatre boilers about DIY work. He went
away and checked and told me it is perfectly legal to work on your own
boiler.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 18:23:54 +0000, mechanic wrote:

On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 11:08:35 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

Thank you. Gas Safe definition of "work" is a professional, being paid.

You're welcome. The definition of 'work' is in terms of activities,
not personal qualities (top of the FAQ I referenced).

Forget the biased FAQ. Have you looked at the actual legislation?



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 02/01/2017 14:36, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
If you recall the dead MP's daughter no one seemed to know who routed
the cable in question. There still isn't any onus on the homeowner to
keep a record of who did what work and when?

If you had run that cable in such a stupid way you'd be likely to remember
you did it?

Except at that time, the IEE didn't stipulate what constituted stupid
routing of cables. I thought it was well before safe-zones.

I do blame were the number of people who got shocks off the rack and did
nothing about it. That was more criminal than the cable route.

On 02/01/2017 18:23, mechanic wrote:
On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 11:08:35 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

Thank you. Gas Safe definition of "work" is a professional, being paid.

You're welcome. The definition of 'work' is in terms of activities,
not personal qualities (top of the FAQ I referenced).

Yes it still uses the word "work" to be paid for work on gas.

I don't understand why you keep referring to this deceptive leaflet. Its
a great shame don't understand, or worse still, deny, that Gas Safe's
definition of 'work' is gainful remuneration in respect of working on gas.

You've already been told to look at the primary legislation which you've
chosen not to. Look at:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1.../made/data.pdf
"3.—(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
or gas storage vessel unless
he is competent to do so."

Paragraphs 2 and 3 refer to anyone "working" with gas in a business,
such as those who are employed and self-employed.

I repeat anyone competent to work on gas may do so. It means if you're
competent and can follow some simple rules you can safely install your
own boiler.

Even the HSE says:
http://www.hse.gov.uk/pUbns/priced/l56.pdf
"This means that anyone carrying out such work must have the necessary
competence, as required by regulation 3(1). However, membership of an
HSE approved class of persons (under regulation 3(3)) is required only
by businesses carrying out gas fitting work."

Perhaps you will now accept that Gas Safe are an utterly untrustworthy
organisation out to deceive.

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 12:24:50 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Put it this way. If a competent DIYer can install and entire
house's plumbing including the central heating in copper well and
safely, why would it need some form of 'highly trained' pro to
modify gas piping?

Probably the thinking is that the penalty for mistakes is much
higher for gas work. No doubt the gas safe certified installers make
mistakes too (Which? evidences this) but how would anyone know if a
d-i-y installer is 'competent'? Probably the emphasis on H&S comes
from long history of coroner's reports.

Really? And incorrectly fitted hot water cylinder can explode. Mixing
potable and non potable water could have serious consequences too.

The rule is simple. If not competent, don't work on gas.

The snag is there are idiots around - both pro and DIY - who aren't. And
no law will make the slightest difference to those.

--
*I must always remember that I'm unique, just like everyone else. *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
If you had run that cable in such a stupid way you'd be likely to
remember you did it?

Except at that time, the IEE didn't stipulate what constituted stupid
routing of cables. I thought it was well before safe-zones.

Hmm. Would you run a cable diagonally across a wall? Regulations or not?

Common sense says you wouldn't.

--
*If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
If you had run that cable in such a stupid way you'd be likely to
remember you did it?

Except at that time, the IEE didn't stipulate what constituted stupid
routing of cables. I thought it was well before safe-zones.

Hmm. Would you run a cable diagonally across a wall? Regulations or not?

Common sense says you wouldn't.

I had to once, becasue of a chimney in the way - but I put a galvanised
channel over it.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

In article ,
charles wrote:
In article ,
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
If you had run that cable in such a stupid way you'd be likely to
remember you did it?

Except at that time, the IEE didn't stipulate what constituted
stupid routing of cables. I thought it was well before safe-zones.

Hmm. Would you run a cable diagonally across a wall? Regulations or
not?

Common sense says you wouldn't.

I had to once, becasue of a chimney in the way - but I put a galvanised
channel over it.

Yes. Most DIYers with common sense would realise the possible problems.
Only pros need a law telling then not to. ;-)

--
*If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 19:52:06 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

Yes it still uses the word "work" to be paid for work on gas.

Let's look at the code of practice for these regulations, perhaps
they will help you to understand the point. My copy/paste may have
mangled things a bit nut hopefully the intentions are clear:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l56.htm

original legislation, regulation3:

"(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."

Guidance 2(1):
para 51: For the purposes of these Regulations, ¡¥work¡¦ includes
do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends
and relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward
or gain, eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that
anyone carrying out such work must have the necessary competence, as
required by regulation 3(1).

-OK that clears up the point that the regs only apply to paid work,
wrong!

What about competence?

I don't understand why you keep referring to this deceptive leaflet. Its
a great shame don't understand, or worse still, deny, that Gas Safe's
definition of 'work' is gainful remuneration in respect of working on gas.

See above for the definition of 'work' in the legislation.

You've already been told to look at the primary legislation which you've
chosen not to. Look at:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1.../made/data.pdf
"3.¡X(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."

Note the sexist language but this was 1998!
OK but what does competent mean?

ACOP guidance 3(1)-(2), para 82:

"Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be
competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member
of an approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas
engineers and those performing favours for friends and relatives all
need to have the required competence. The level and range of
competence should match the full extent of work done, but needs only
to be sufficient for and relevant to that work.
83 Employers of gas engineers are also required under regulation
3(2) to ensure that their employees have the required competence for
the work undertaken; in addition to ensuring they are properly
experienced and trained (see paragraph 86).
This involves ongoing monitoring of performance standards, as
necessary.

(note para 84) Competence is a combination of practical skill,
training, knowledge and experience to carry out the job in hand
safely, and ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition
for use. Knowledge must be kept up-to-date with changes in the
law, technology and safe working practice.

Paragraphs 2 and 3 refer to anyone "working" with gas in a business,
such as those who are employed and self-employed.

I repeat anyone competent to work on gas may do so. It means if you're
competent and can follow some simple rules you can safely install your
own boiler.

You're missing the point, summarised earlier in para 80 of the code
of practice:

Gas work should only be undertaken:
(a) by a person who has successfully completed an
industry-recognised training course followed by assessment of
competence. Training that leads to assessment of competence in safe
gas work should be recognised by the industry¡¦s standards setting
body; or
(various exceptions)

I hope this clarifies this issue for you? 'Competence' must be
demonstrable, not just self-assessed!

On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:22:04 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The snag is there are idiots around - both pro and DIY - who
aren't. And no law will make the slightest difference to those.

That's no excuse though, for lack of legislation. There are
shop-lifters around even though it's illegal.

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
Yes it still uses the word "work" to be paid for work on gas.

Let's look at the code of practice for these regulations, perhaps
they will help you to understand the point. My copy/paste may have
mangled things a bit nut hopefully the intentions are clear:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l56.htm

original legislation, regulation3:

"(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting
or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."

Guidance 2(1):
para 51: For the purposes of these Regulations, ¡¥work¡¦ includes
do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends
and relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward
or gain, eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that
anyone carrying out such work must have the necessary competence, as
required by regulation 3(1).

-OK that clears up the point that the regs only apply to paid work,
wrong!

No it doesn't. Or rather not in terms of that GasSafe article which
conveniently edits out the all important competent bit.

What about competence?

If you don't understand what competent is, simply don't touch gas. Or
anything else you're not competent to work on.

All sorts of DIY done by an incompetent could be dangerous to others.

--
*Why isn't 11 pronounced onety one? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
mechanic wrote:
On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 11:22:04 +0000 (GMT), Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

The snag is there are idiots around - both pro and DIY - who
aren't. And no law will make the slightest difference to those.

That's no excuse though, for lack of legislation. There are
shop-lifters around even though it's illegal.

The big snag with many rules and regulations is only the honest and law
abiding take notice of them. Cowboy builders ain't going to give a stuff
about any - unless they are adequately policed. Which they never are.

Trade organisations like Gas Safe have a vested interest in lying to the
public about any such regs. The very idea of having a profit making body
policing a trade is fraught with dangers.

From Wiki:-

The scheme is administered by Capita Group on behalf of the Health and
Safety Executive.[4] in the United Kingdom Mainland and for the Health and
Safety Executive Northern Ireland. The contract differs in Northern
Ireland in relation to the main contract for mainland of the United
Kingdom. When Gas Safe took over, the pre-registration inspection
previously carried out by the CORGI inspector was abolished, meaning once
a profit-making training and assessment centre passed a candidate, an
application form and payment was all that was required to commence gas
work.[citation needed] Previously the CORGI inspector undertook an
interview to verify the new registration and engineer to ensure that the
knowledge was sufficient to operate to a reasonable standard of safety. In
Northern Ireland the number of inspectors was reduced from two full-time
to one part-time inspector.

--
*A plateau is a high form of flattery*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 03 Jan 2017 15:32:58 +0000, mechanic wrote:

On Mon, 2 Jan 2017 19:52:06 +0000, Fredxxx wrote:

Yes it still uses the word "work" to be paid for work on gas.

Let's look at the code of practice for these regulations, perhaps they
will help you to understand the point. My copy/paste may have mangled
things a bit nut hopefully the intentions are clear:

http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l56.htm

original legislation, regulation3:

"(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas fitting or
gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."

That's the original legislation.

Guidance 2(1):
para 51: For the purposes of these Regulations, €˜work includes
do-it-yourself activities, work undertaken as a favour for friends and
relatives, and work for which there is no expectation of reward or gain,
eg voluntary activity for charities. This means that anyone carrying out
such work must have the necessary competence, as required by regulation
3(1).

-OK that clears up the point that the regs only apply to paid work,
wrong!

No, that's Guidance from HSE. It is not law. You are conflating the two
in an attempt to prove your (faulty) point.

What about competence?

I don't understand why you keep referring to this deceptive leaflet.
Its a great shame don't understand, or worse still, deny, that Gas
Safe's definition of 'work' is gainful remuneration in respect of
working on gas.

See above for the definition of 'work' in the legislation.

No, the definition of 'work' that you quote is NOT in the legislation.
It's in an HSE Guidance Note.

You've already been told to look at the primary legislation which
you've chosen not to. Look at:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1.../made/data.pdf
"3.€”(1) No person shall carry out any work in relation to a gas
fitting or gas storage vessel unless he is competent to do so."

Note the sexist language but this was 1998!
OK but what does competent mean?

ACOP guidance 3(1)-(2), para 82:

"Anyone who does work on a gas fitting or gas storage vessel must be
competent to do so (whether or not they are required to be a member of
an approved class of persons). Therefore, do-it-yourself gas engineers
and those performing favours for friends and relatives all need to have
the required competence. The level and range of competence should match
the full extent of work done, but needs only to be sufficient for and
relevant to that work.
83 Employers of gas engineers are also required under regulation 3(2) to
ensure that their employees have the required competence for the work
undertaken; in addition to ensuring they are properly experienced and
trained (see paragraph 86).
This involves ongoing monitoring of performance standards, as necessary.

(note para 84) Competence is a combination of practical skill, training,
knowledge and experience to carry out the job in hand safely, and
ensuring the installation is left in a safe condition for use. Knowledge
must be kept up-to-date with changes in the law, technology and safe
working practice.

Paragraphs 2 and 3 refer to anyone "working" with gas in a business,
such as those who are employed and self-employed.

I repeat anyone competent to work on gas may do so. It means if you're
competent and can follow some simple rules you can safely install your
own boiler.

You're missing the point, summarised earlier in para 80 of the code of
practice:

Gas work should only be undertaken:
(a) by a person who has successfully completed an industry-recognised
training course followed by assessment of competence. Training that
leads to assessment of competence in safe gas work should be recognised
by the industrys standards setting body; or (various exceptions)

I hope this clarifies this issue for you? 'Competence' must be
demonstrable, not just self-assessed!

THat's the Code of Practice, not the law. And clearly aimed at the trade.



--
My posts are my copyright and if @diy_forums or Home Owners' Hub
wish to copy them they can pay me £1 a message.
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On 03/01/2017 11:24, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Fredxxx wrote:
If you had run that cable in such a stupid way you'd be likely to
remember you did it?

Except at that time, the IEE didn't stipulate what constituted stupid
routing of cables. I thought it was well before safe-zones.

Hmm. Would you run a cable diagonally across a wall? Regulations or not?

Common sense says you wouldn't.

Practicalities at the time were such I moved a cooker socket laterally,
such that the cable was no longer vertical. This was some decades ago.

Of course, these days I would extend the cable by crimping and run the
cable along the ceiling the foot or so required.

Hence my question; when did the IEE stipulate horizontal and vertical
cable runs and invent safe-zones?