On 16/12/16 20:47, jim wrote:
Tim Watts Wrote in message:
On 16/12/16 13:22, jim wrote:
Dowty washers

They'd work *provided* the thread still holds firm.


Spose so. It's cranked up with a 8" adjustable as far as I want to
take it, & still drips a bit.

Beginning to wonder - if the sump's steel & the plug's steel, how
much can I give it before really buggering it up?

What's the failure mode? Sudden catastrophic loosening whilst
tightening?

I would imagine that's the most likely. Given the suspicion of failure,
I'd consider dowty washers (check the rubber is good for the heat, say
110C) or hylomar type products


I did read someat about dowty washers not needing as much torque
to work as compared to metal crush washers...


They're a rubber seal, so no - just tight enough to stop it working
itself loose.

In article ,
jim k wrote:
Tim Watts Wrote in message:
On 16/12/16 13:22, jim wrote:
Dowty washers

They'd work *provided* the thread still holds firm.


Spose so. It's cranked up with a 8" adjustable as far as I want to
take it, & still drips a bit.

Beginning to wonder - if the sump's steel & the plug's steel, how
much can I give it before really buggering it up?

There should be no need to tighten a sump plug much. There's little to
zero pressure there.

What's the failure mode? Sudden catastrophic loosening whilst
tightening?

The thread stripped, the plug sheared or even the 'nut' part ripping out
of the sump.

I did read someat about dowty washers not needing as much torque
to work as compared to metal crush washers...

Copper is usually the best bet, but anneal it before use. Heat to red hot
them plunge in water.

--
* What do they call a coffee break at the Lipton Tea Company? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for tightening a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought would be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

--
Today's woman puts on wigs, fake eyelashes, false fingernails, sixteen pounds of assorted make-up/shadows/blushes/creams, living bras, various pads that would make a linebacker envious, has implants and assorted other surgeries, then complains that she cannot find a "real" man.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for tightening a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought would be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 10:59:37 -0000, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a good
chance you could damage something.

Spanners are a different length according to size. Generally on a car for
things that don't matter using that sort of spanner and a decent pull will
tighten things OK. The problem comes with sockets with one size handle for
them all. The trick is to hold the handle closer to the pivot for small
sizes. Anyone who needs a torque wrench for everything needs to practice a
bit more. ;-)

Sump plugs are usually the sort of thing with a very wide range of
acceptable torque. After all it's not holding things together. But
obviously relies on the correct sealing washer in good condition.

I didn't know until a friend told me recently that there was such a thing as an adjustable torque wrench, or any kind of numbers listed in manuals for the car for different torques for different bolts. Isn't it common sense how hard to push?

--
BREAKFAST.SYS halted... Cereal port not responding.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for tightening a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought would be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You're squished under a car on jacks, you get oil on you no matter what you do. I prefer to leave oil changes to someone who has a lifting hoist (my garage).

--
Reading while sunbathing makes you well red.

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:55:23 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip

Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You're squished under a car on jacks,

Depends on the car. On the kitcar I can get under it (easily) without
it being hacked up. ;-)

you get oil on you no matter what you do.

No, you shouldn't, once you know what you are doing.

I prefer to leave oil changes to someone who has a lifting hoist (my garage).

And of course that is your choice and you 'pay's yer money' etc. And
that can be part of it, you pay the money but are you actually getting
what you are paying for? According to TV shows like Watchdog the
answer is 'not always'.

And apart from that, don't forget many people actually like being both
self sufficient (wherever possible) and even enjoy such jobs (for the
money saving, the interest and the knowledge that it's been done and
done properly).

Daughter generally does the oil changes on her own vehicles (car, van
and motorbike) and has also changed the rear springs on her car and
recently replaced the overrun clutch on her van alternator (with a
little guidance and support from me etc).

Like me at the beginning she doesn't have the money to 'throw away' so
no only can d-i-y save money but you can do it when it suits you best.
Like, she might do an oil change on a Sunday to keep her car running 6
days a week.

I still do what I can myself (for all the reasons stated above) except
when it might involve specialist tools, might take a while (and I
don't have a garage so would have to be done in the road) or the
weather isn't 'good'.

The last job I did on our everyday car was to have the ECU
re-manufactured and to avoid having to pay / get anything re-coded,
had to remove the ECU, the BCM, the instrument cluster, the ignition
immobiliser and give them the key. The advantage of doing it yourself
is I could take all the bits out when and where it suited me and put
them back on same grounds.

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:49:11 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip

Sump plugs are usually the sort of thing with a very wide range of
acceptable torque. After all it's not holding things together. But
obviously relies on the correct sealing washer in good condition.

I didn't know until a friend told me recently that there was such a thing as an adjustable torque wrench,

You live and learn. ;-)

or any kind of numbers listed in manuals for the car for different torques for different bolts.

Yup.

Isn't it common sense how hard to push?

Nope, not to start with especially.

I suggested a mate replace the alternator on his Ford Galaxy himself
as from his description it sounded easily accessible and he was
willing to give it a go in the hope of saving a few quid.

He got it off ok but sheared one of the (perfectly good) retaining
bolts off when doing it all up through over tightening.

Just to show you can also go wrong *with* a torque wrench, another
mate decided to buy a VW camper and rebuilt it himself (as his first
ever real vehicle project). He did so on the understanding I'd try and
help him (even over the phone) whenever required.

He was rebuilding the engine and stripped one of the cylinder studs
out of the crankcase because he had mis-read the torque wrench.
Because all this was new to him he hadn't learned the feel of what
(say) 28 ft/lb was and so carried on turning till it stripped.

I don't think I would have 1) set the TR incorrectly or 2) carried on
past what I felt should have been around the right torque.

He had the damaged stud replaced by a local engineering co, finished
rebuilding the engine (that ran very smoothly) but the rest of it
(bodywork) was too much (too many other skills to learn, like welding)
so he sold it 'as is' (and made a bit).

Cheers, T i m

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for tightening a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought would be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy. Maybe you should go play on CAM4?

--
Mary had a little skirt
With slits right up the sides
And everytime she crossed her legs
The boys could see her thighs

Mary had another skirt
With a slit right up the front
She never wore that one...

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 11:13:57 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:49:11 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip

Sump plugs are usually the sort of thing with a very wide range of
acceptable torque. After all it's not holding things together. But
obviously relies on the correct sealing washer in good condition.

I didn't know until a friend told me recently that there was such a thing as an adjustable torque wrench,

You live and learn. ;-)

or any kind of numbers listed in manuals for the car for different torques for different bolts.

Yup.

Isn't it common sense how hard to push?

Nope, not to start with especially.

I suggested a mate replace the alternator on his Ford Galaxy himself
as from his description it sounded easily accessible and he was
willing to give it a go in the hope of saving a few quid.

He got it off ok but sheared one of the (perfectly good) retaining
bolts off when doing it all up through over tightening.

Just to show you can also go wrong *with* a torque wrench, another
mate decided to buy a VW camper and rebuilt it himself (as his first
ever real vehicle project). He did so on the understanding I'd try and
help him (even over the phone) whenever required.

He was rebuilding the engine and stripped one of the cylinder studs
out of the crankcase because he had mis-read the torque wrench.
Because all this was new to him he hadn't learned the feel of what
(say) 28 ft/lb was and so carried on turning till it stripped.

I don't think I would have 1) set the TR incorrectly or 2) carried on
past what I felt should have been around the right torque.

He had the damaged stud replaced by a local engineering co, finished
rebuilding the engine (that ran very smoothly) but the rest of it
(bodywork) was too much (too many other skills to learn, like welding)
so he sold it 'as is' (and made a bit).

I always have the problem REMOVING the bolts, as they're rusted on and you can't apply enough torque without damaging something.

--
You know you're getting old when:
Your friends compliment you on your new alligator shoes and you're barefoot.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the
saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for tightening a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought would
be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least
giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

You don't get dirty or greasy when you know what you are doing.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 01:43:40 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

I don't actually and never have. I can / will if the job requires such
but I generally like to work clean. [1]

Maybe you should go play on CAM4?

No idea what you are talking about mate.

Cheers, T i m

[1] The first Mrs had a Honda C50LA, that was a 50cc 'step though'
motorbike with 3 automatic gears (not a CVT). It had a recall that was
to do with one of the helical spring clutches and because I knew just
how dirty the local dealers workshop was, I offered to do it myself.

It was like a Swiss watch in there and everything was gleaming like
new as it was put back together, not covered in grease and grit had
the shop done it. It performed 100% after that and with no oil leaks
etc. ;-)

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 01:57:39 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip

I always have the problem REMOVING the bolts, as they're rusted on and you can't apply enough torque without damaging something.

Then again, in most cases you are probably doing it wrong.

My non-computer-literate Dad ran an Apple Mac and complained when
upgrading the OS himself that things got screwed up.

I explained that whilst he (the user) should be able to do such
things, they often / really required the attention of someone with
experience and skills. Just because he 'could' stick the CD in a click
a few things didn't mean he should etc.

So, to avoid damaging stuff when removing them you should first ensure
the head / socket is clean (de-rusted, paint removed, socket cleared
out) and then the correct size, strength and fit tool applied, also
ensuring you have suitable access to apply the required force easily
(and safely ... 'what happens if it does shear / slip' etc, where will
my hand end up).

If it doesn't move with force typical for that application you then
apply a range of different procedure depending on the specific
situation. They could include releasing fluids and time (like Plus
Gas, not WD40), impact, either rotationally (air / electric 'rattle
gun') or longitudinally (hammer) to shock the joint loose or heat (big
soldering iron, blowlamp, induction heater etc). You may even resort
(depending on why it won't undo) to using a hacksaw or Dremel and
cutting a slot across a damaged X-head, Allen, Torx or spline or
'flats' across a damaged hex headed bolt to give some new contact
positions for other tools, like a punch / drift or flat bladed
screwdriver on what was a x-head (Phillips / Pozi [1]) or Mole grips
on what was a hex head.

You may often need repeated combinations of all / any of the above.

Then you get onto the extra tools like nut splitters and stud
extractors or even the use of a welder to add heat or an extra 'nut'
to something to give you another start.

And of course you need some patience. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] Many a fastener (machine or otherwise) has been ruined by someone
using (by potentially not understanding) the difference between say
Philips and Pozidrive screws, or just how well an Allen key should
fit. And once damaged, even slightly it makes the job of removing the
screw, even with the correct fitting tool even more difficult.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:36:56 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the
saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for tightening a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought would
be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least
giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

You don't get dirty or greasy when you know what you are doing.

Well working in a confined space doesn't make things easy.

--
Men, here's a tip for dealing with the little lady.
If you upset your wife or girlfriend then she will nag you.
However, if you upset her EVEN MORE, you will get the silent treatment.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 09:52:50 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 01:43:40 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

I don't actually and never have. I can / will if the job requires such
but I generally like to work clean. [1]

Maybe you should go play on CAM4?

No idea what you are talking about mate.

Somewhere dirty.

Cheers, T i m

[1] The first Mrs had a Honda C50LA, that was a 50cc 'step though'
motorbike with 3 automatic gears (not a CVT). It had a recall that was
to do with one of the helical spring clutches and because I knew just
how dirty the local dealers workshop was, I offered to do it myself.

It was like a Swiss watch in there and everything was gleaming like
new as it was put back together, not covered in grease and grit had
the shop done it. It performed 100% after that and with no oil leaks
etc. ;-)



--
A worried father confronted his daughter one night.
"I don't like that new boyfriend, he's rough and common and bloody stupid with it."
"Oh no, Daddy," the daughter replied, "Fred's ever so clever, we've only been going out nine weeks and he's cured me of that illness I used to get once a month."

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 10:17:50 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 01:57:39 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip

I always have the problem REMOVING the bolts, as they're rusted on and you can't apply enough torque without damaging something.

Then again, in most cases you are probably doing it wrong.

My non-computer-literate Dad ran an Apple Mac and complained when
upgrading the OS himself that things got screwed up.

I explained that whilst he (the user) should be able to do such
things, they often / really required the attention of someone with
experience and skills. Just because he 'could' stick the CD in a click
a few things didn't mean he should etc.

Upgrading an OS works for anyone 99% of the time. On Macs or PCs. You are given instructions on the screen.

So, to avoid damaging stuff when removing them you should first ensure
the head / socket is clean (de-rusted, paint removed, socket cleared
out) and then the correct size, strength and fit tool applied, also
ensuring you have suitable access to apply the required force easily
(and safely ... 'what happens if it does shear / slip' etc, where will
my hand end up).

There is never enough access, cars are designed too small to get spanners into.

And if it's rusted, it will not be strong enough to take the full torque. You can't fix that.

If it doesn't move with force typical for that application you then
apply a range of different procedure depending on the specific
situation. They could include releasing fluids and time (like Plus
Gas, not WD40), impact, either rotationally (air / electric 'rattle
gun') or longitudinally (hammer) to shock the joint loose or heat (big
soldering iron, blowlamp, induction heater etc). You may even resort
(depending on why it won't undo) to using a hacksaw or Dremel and
cutting a slot across a damaged X-head, Allen, Torx or spline or
'flats' across a damaged hex headed bolt to give some new contact
positions for other tools, like a punch / drift or flat bladed
screwdriver on what was a x-head (Phillips / Pozi [1]) or Mole grips
on what was a hex head.

That sounds like far too much effort. Maybe they should invent non-rusting bolts? This is the 21st century.

You may often need repeated combinations of all / any of the above.

Then you get onto the extra tools like nut splitters and stud
extractors or even the use of a welder to add heat or an extra 'nut'
to something to give you another start.

And of course you need some patience. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

[1] Many a fastener (machine or otherwise) has been ruined by someone
using (by potentially not understanding) the difference between say
Philips and Pozidrive screws,

Philips shouldn't be made anymore, they are inferior.

or just how well an Allen key should
fit.

Eh? That's common sense.

And once damaged, even slightly it makes the job of removing the
screw, even with the correct fitting tool even more difficult.

--
Ever stop to think, and forget to start again?

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:36:56 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the
saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for tightening
a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or
testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I
have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought would
be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least
giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or
put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

You don't get dirty or greasy when you know what you are doing.

Well working in a confined space doesn't make things easy.

Easy with ramps.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:30:26 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:36:56 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the
saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for tightening
a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or
testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I
have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought would
be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least
giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or
put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

You don't get dirty or greasy when you know what you are doing.

Well working in a confined space doesn't make things easy.

Easy with ramps.

Yes we all have those....

--
Q. What's hairy on the outside, wet on the inside, begins with a "C" and ends with a "T"?
A. A coconut.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:30:26 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:36:56 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you
may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a
good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the
saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for
tightening
a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or
testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get
away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I
have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought
would
be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a
spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least
giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be
easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or
put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

You don't get dirty or greasy when you know what you are doing.

Well working in a confined space doesn't make things easy.

Easy with ramps.

Yes we all have those....

Anyone with a clue who charges the oil in their car themselves gets some or
borrows some when they need to. Mine are currently on loan to someone I
know.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 23:22:23 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:30:26 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:36:56 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you
may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a
good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the
saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for
tightening
a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or
testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get
away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I
have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought
would
be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a
spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least
giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be
easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more 'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut or
put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

You don't get dirty or greasy when you know what you are doing.

Well working in a confined space doesn't make things easy.

Easy with ramps.

Yes we all have those....

Anyone with a clue who charges the oil in their car themselves gets some or
borrows some when they need to. Mine are currently on loan to someone I
know.

I prefer not having two tonnes of steel above me.

--
It is impossible to hold a sandwich between your elbows and eat it.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:18:10 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip

I explained that whilst he (the user) should be able to do such
things, they often / really required the attention of someone with
experience and skills. Just because he 'could' stick the CD in a click
a few things didn't mean he should etc.

Upgrading an OS works for anyone 99% of the time.

Cite?

On Macs or PCs. You are given instructions on the screen.

Yes, and they cover 99% of the apps and hardware (internal and
external) do they?

So, to avoid damaging stuff when removing them you should first ensure
the head / socket is clean (de-rusted, paint removed, socket cleared
out) and then the correct size, strength and fit tool applied, also
ensuring you have suitable access to apply the required force easily
(and safely ... 'what happens if it does shear / slip' etc, where will
my hand end up).

There is never enough access, cars are designed too small to get spanners into.

Yet somehow, many seem to manage it?

And if it's rusted, it will not be strong enough to take the full torque. You can't fix that.

I said 'rusted', not 'rusted away'.

If it doesn't move with force typical for that application you then
apply a range of different procedure depending on the specific
situation. They could include releasing fluids and time (like Plus
Gas, not WD40), impact, either rotationally (air / electric 'rattle
gun') or longitudinally (hammer) to shock the joint loose or heat (big
soldering iron, blowlamp, induction heater etc). You may even resort
(depending on why it won't undo) to using a hacksaw or Dremel and
cutting a slot across a damaged X-head, Allen, Torx or spline or
'flats' across a damaged hex headed bolt to give some new contact
positions for other tools, like a punch / drift or flat bladed
screwdriver on what was a x-head (Phillips / Pozi [1]) or Mole grips
on what was a hex head.

That sounds like far too much effort.

Now we are getting to it.

Maybe they should invent non-rusting bolts?

They have, they are just too expensive and in the most part,
unnecessary.

This is the 21st century.

You got something right at last. ;-)

snip

[1] Many a fastener (machine or otherwise) has been ruined by someone
using (by potentially not understanding) the difference between say
Philips and Pozidrive screws,

Philips shouldn't be made anymore, they are inferior.

Quite possibly, but while they exist those of us who can have to deal
with them.

or just how well an Allen key should
fit.

Eh? That's common sense.

You would think ... but by the sound of it it's something that you
could easily get wrong? ;-)

Cheers, T i m

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 23:22:23 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:30:26 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:36:56 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own
car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque
wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you
may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a
good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the
saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for
tightening
a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or
testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get
away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I
have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought
would
be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a
spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and
a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly
sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least
giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be
easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more
'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut
or
put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to
see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

You don't get dirty or greasy when you know what you are doing.

Well working in a confined space doesn't make things easy.

Easy with ramps.

Yes we all have those....

Anyone with a clue who charges the oil in their car themselves gets some
or
borrows some when they need to. Mine are currently on loan to someone I
know.

I prefer not having two tonnes of steel above me.

Perfectly safe when you know what you are doing.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2016 00:29:24 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:18:10 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip

I explained that whilst he (the user) should be able to do such
things, they often / really required the attention of someone with
experience and skills. Just because he 'could' stick the CD in a click
a few things didn't mean he should etc.

Upgrading an OS works for anyone 99% of the time.

Cite?

I've done it myself on thousands of machines, and virtually never have I had to do anything I'd consider above the average person who can read English. At the most you might have to google a problem.

On Macs or PCs. You are given instructions on the screen.

Yes, and they cover 99% of the apps and hardware (internal and
external) do they?

Yes.

So, to avoid damaging stuff when removing them you should first ensure
the head / socket is clean (de-rusted, paint removed, socket cleared
out) and then the correct size, strength and fit tool applied, also
ensuring you have suitable access to apply the required force easily
(and safely ... 'what happens if it does shear / slip' etc, where will
my hand end up).

There is never enough access, cars are designed too small to get spanners into.

Yet somehow, many seem to manage it?

With difficulty.

And if it's rusted, it will not be strong enough to take the full torque. You can't fix that.

I said 'rusted', not 'rusted away'.

Only the sharp bits of the hexagon shape need to rust for it to become a circular bolt you cannot turn.

If it doesn't move with force typical for that application you then
apply a range of different procedure depending on the specific
situation. They could include releasing fluids and time (like Plus
Gas, not WD40), impact, either rotationally (air / electric 'rattle
gun') or longitudinally (hammer) to shock the joint loose or heat (big
soldering iron, blowlamp, induction heater etc). You may even resort
(depending on why it won't undo) to using a hacksaw or Dremel and
cutting a slot across a damaged X-head, Allen, Torx or spline or
'flats' across a damaged hex headed bolt to give some new contact
positions for other tools, like a punch / drift or flat bladed
screwdriver on what was a x-head (Phillips / Pozi [1]) or Mole grips
on what was a hex head.

That sounds like far too much effort.

Now we are getting to it.

Easier to give £20 to a mechanic.

Maybe they should invent non-rusting bolts?

They have, they are just too expensive and in the most part,
unnecessary.

This is the 21st century.

You got something right at last. ;-)

Yet we can't make non-rusting materials cheaply, and are still eating from bowls and plates that break if you drop them. I'm not impressed.

[1] Many a fastener (machine or otherwise) has been ruined by someone
using (by potentially not understanding) the difference between say
Philips and Pozidrive screws,

Philips shouldn't be made anymore, they are inferior.

Quite possibly, but while they exist those of us who can have to deal
with them.

I throw them in the bin if I find one.

or just how well an Allen key should fit.

Eh? That's common sense.

You would think ... but by the sound of it it's something that you
could easily get wrong? ;-)

I never have a problem with Allen or Torx.

--
In the event that all else has failed, and it seems tempting to actually read the instructions, don't panic: Get a bigger hammer!

On Mon, 19 Dec 2016 00:59:34 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 23:22:23 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:30:26 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:36:56 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own
car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque
wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game you
may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is a
good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and the
saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for
tightening
a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or
testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get
away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and I
have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought
would
be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a
spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets and
a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly
sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at least
giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be
easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more
'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut
or
put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to
see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

You don't get dirty or greasy when you know what you are doing.

Well working in a confined space doesn't make things easy.

Easy with ramps.

Yes we all have those....

Anyone with a clue who charges the oil in their car themselves gets some
or
borrows some when they need to. Mine are currently on loan to someone I
know.

I prefer not having two tonnes of steel above me.

Perfectly safe when you know what you are doing.

I have a habit of getting things wrong.

--
WEDDING DRESS FOR SALE.
Worn once by mistake.
Call Stephanie.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 19 Dec 2016 00:29:24 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:18:10 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip

I explained that whilst he (the user) should be able to do such
things, they often / really required the attention of someone with
experience and skills. Just because he 'could' stick the CD in a click
a few things didn't mean he should etc.

Upgrading an OS works for anyone 99% of the time.

Cite?

I've done it myself on thousands of machines, and virtually never have I
had to do anything I'd consider above the average person who can read
English. At the most you might have to google a problem.

On Macs or PCs. You are given instructions on the screen.

Yes, and they cover 99% of the apps and hardware (internal and
external) do they?

Yes.

So, to avoid damaging stuff when removing them you should first ensure
the head / socket is clean (de-rusted, paint removed, socket cleared
out) and then the correct size, strength and fit tool applied, also
ensuring you have suitable access to apply the required force easily
(and safely ... 'what happens if it does shear / slip' etc, where will
my hand end up).

There is never enough access, cars are designed too small to get
spanners into.

Yet somehow, many seem to manage it?

With difficulty.

And if it's rusted, it will not be strong enough to take the full
torque. You can't fix that.

I said 'rusted', not 'rusted away'.

Only the sharp bits of the hexagon shape need to rust for it to become a
circular bolt you cannot turn.

If it doesn't move with force typical for that application you then
apply a range of different procedure depending on the specific
situation. They could include releasing fluids and time (like Plus
Gas, not WD40), impact, either rotationally (air / electric 'rattle
gun') or longitudinally (hammer) to shock the joint loose or heat (big
soldering iron, blowlamp, induction heater etc). You may even resort
(depending on why it won't undo) to using a hacksaw or Dremel and
cutting a slot across a damaged X-head, Allen, Torx or spline or
'flats' across a damaged hex headed bolt to give some new contact
positions for other tools, like a punch / drift or flat bladed
screwdriver on what was a x-head (Phillips / Pozi [1]) or Mole grips
on what was a hex head.

That sounds like far too much effort.

Now we are getting to it.

Easier to give £20 to a mechanic.

Maybe they should invent non-rusting bolts?

They have, they are just too expensive and in the most part,
unnecessary.

This is the 21st century.

You got something right at last. ;-)

Yet we can't make non-rusting materials cheaply,

Plenty of those.

and are still eating from bowls and plates that break if you drop them.

Plenty that don't break if you drop them which are very cheap.

I'm not impressed.

[1] Many a fastener (machine or otherwise) has been ruined by someone
using (by potentially not understanding) the difference between say
Philips and Pozidrive screws,

Philips shouldn't be made anymore, they are inferior.

Quite possibly, but while they exist those of us who can have to deal
with them.

I throw them in the bin if I find one.

or just how well an Allen key should fit.

Eh? That's common sense.

You would think ... but by the sound of it it's something that you
could easily get wrong? ;-)

I never have a problem with Allen or Torx.

--
In the event that all else has failed, and it seems tempting to actually
read the instructions, don't panic: Get a bigger hammer!

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 19 Dec 2016 00:59:34 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 23:22:23 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 21:30:26 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sun, 18 Dec 2016 03:36:56 -0000, grjw wrote:



"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:33:05 -0000, T i m
wrote:

On Sat, 17 Dec 2016 01:05:26 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:57:51 -0000, T i m
wrote:

On Fri, 16 Dec 2016 09:21:31 GMT, Harry Bloomfield
wrote:

T i m presented the following explanation :
I was asked to advise a lad who was considering doing his own
car
servicing about the tools he would need and I put 'torque
wrench'
right up there. The point is, if you are 'new' to that game
you
may
have no idea what 20 ft/lb feels like and therefore there is
a
good
chance you could damage something.

But just like any subject there are 'tools for the job' and
the
saying
'you can manage what you can measure is no less true for
tightening
a
sump nut (especially where they are known to be 'fragile') or
testing
a battery or broadband speed.

Now, *when* you know what you are doing you can sometimes get
away
using less than optimal tools (especially needs-must etc) and
I
have
often tested my Leatherman PST II Multitool to what I thought
would
be
beyond it's limits (including where I should have used a
spanner).

For tightening a fixing, you are best avoiding using sockets
and
a
ratchet - better to use a correct sized spanner. A correctly
sized
spanner will normally be shorter for the smaller sizes, at
least
giving
some protection from applying to much torque.


Agreed, and for sump nuts (where two handed access may not be
easy),
also more likely to 1) stay on the nut and 2) offer a more
'direct'
turning moment (so less likely to slip and damage you / the nut
or
put
strange loads on the thread).

So, how to do this accurately while your face is covered in oil?

With a torque wrench as you can feel the click, you don't need to
see
it. ;-)

You just like getting all dirty and greasy.

You don't get dirty or greasy when you know what you are doing.

Well working in a confined space doesn't make things easy.

Easy with ramps.

Yes we all have those....

Anyone with a clue who charges the oil in their car themselves gets
some
or
borrows some when they need to. Mine are currently on loan to someone I
know.

I prefer not having two tonnes of steel above me.

Perfectly safe when you know what you are doing.

I have a habit of getting things wrong.

We need more Darwinism in the system.

--
WEDDING DRESS FOR SALE.
Worn once by mistake.
Call Stephanie.

On Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:20:17 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip
Upgrading an OS works for anyone 99% of the time.

Cite?

I've done it myself on thousands of machines, and virtually never have I had to do anything I'd consider above the average person who can read English. At the most you might have to google a problem.

That's not citing anything, that's just recalling your own personal
(supposed) experiences (as would be typical for those who can never
think outside their own world).

I've been building, installing, maintaining and upgrading 'PC's' since
the IBM PC XT and helping others do the same (both professionally and
privately) and I'd say it's rare for an OS upgrade (especially going
from say OS9 to OS X) not to have some negative consequences.

On Macs or PCs. You are given instructions on the screen.

Yes, and they cover 99% of the apps and hardware (internal and
external) do they?

Yes.

Then may I say you have never really done any major OS upgrades (on
any PC platform). Look at how many apps that run on Apple machines
that have a very narrow range of OS version support. Look at how many
Linux apps have to have the repository location changed once you
upgrade the Linux version. With Windows it's not so bad as many apps
still support say XP to W10 bit hardware drivers don't always cover
the same range, to a point where the hardware may no longer be
supported at all (officially etc).

So again, can you cite any global stats to support your 99%?

So, to avoid damaging stuff when removing them you should first ensure
the head / socket is clean (de-rusted, paint removed, socket cleared
out) and then the correct size, strength and fit tool applied, also
ensuring you have suitable access to apply the required force easily
(and safely ... 'what happens if it does shear / slip' etc, where will
my hand end up).

There is never enough access, cars are designed too small to get spanners into.

Yet somehow, many seem to manage it?

With difficulty.

Par for the course mate. Many things people do aren't easy to anyone
who doesn't have their skills, that's how they become 'skilled' at
those tasks and so comparatively 'easy' for them. (Doh) ;-)

And if it's rusted, it will not be strong enough to take the full torque. You can't fix that.

I said 'rusted', not 'rusted away'.

Only the sharp bits of the hexagon shape need to rust for it to become a circular bolt you cannot turn.

The 'sharp bit's will have to rust a log way before a 6 sided socket
won't turn them. And have you ever seen metal rust that way? What you
will normally find is the whole head gets smaller.

If it doesn't move with force typical for that application you then
apply a range of different procedure depending on the specific
situation. They could include releasing fluids and time (like Plus
Gas, not WD40), impact, either rotationally (air / electric 'rattle
gun') or longitudinally (hammer) to shock the joint loose or heat (big
soldering iron, blowlamp, induction heater etc). You may even resort
(depending on why it won't undo) to using a hacksaw or Dremel and
cutting a slot across a damaged X-head, Allen, Torx or spline or
'flats' across a damaged hex headed bolt to give some new contact
positions for other tools, like a punch / drift or flat bladed
screwdriver on what was a x-head (Phillips / Pozi [1]) or Mole grips
on what was a hex head.

That sounds like far too much effort.

Now we are getting to it.

Easier to give £20 to a mechanic.

Yes, quite, you don't find it easy or interesting (and have a history
of breaking such things) so you would rather have someone else do it.

snip

or just how well an Allen key should fit.

Eh? That's common sense.

You would think ... but by the sound of it it's something that you
could easily get wrong? ;-)

I never have a problem with Allen or Torx.

Then again, I suggest you have never been confronted by a tricky one,
especially one still full of mud or previously mullered by someone
using the wrong size key or quality of key (not hard enough).

Cheers, T i m

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 20 Dec 2016 00:07:12 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Mon, 19 Dec 2016 20:20:17 -0000, "James Wilkinson Sword"
wrote:

snip
Upgrading an OS works for anyone 99% of the time.

Cite?

I've done it myself on thousands of machines, and virtually never have I
had to do anything I'd consider above the average person who can read
English. At the most you might have to google a problem.

That's not citing anything, that's just recalling your own personal
(supposed) experiences (as would be typical for those who can never
think outside their own world).

It's citing my vast experience.

I've been building, installing, maintaining and upgrading 'PC's' since
the IBM PC XT and helping others do the same (both professionally and
privately) and I'd say it's rare for an OS upgrade (especially going
from say OS9 to OS X) not to have some negative consequences.

Then you're much more careless than me.

On Macs or PCs. You are given instructions on the screen.

Yes, and they cover 99% of the apps and hardware (internal and
external) do they?

Yes.

Then may I say you have never really done any major OS upgrades (on
any PC platform). Look at how many apps that run on Apple machines
that have a very narrow range of OS version support.

You get a newer version of the program. And please don't say "app", you
sound like one of those mobile phone users who thinks they're computers.

Look at how many
Linux apps have to have the repository location changed once you
upgrade the Linux version. With Windows it's not so bad as many apps
still support say XP to W10 bit hardware drivers don't always cover
the same range, to a point where the hardware may no longer be
supported at all (officially etc).

Which is why Windows is far better.

So again, can you cite any global stats to support your 99%?

So, to avoid damaging stuff when removing them you should first
ensure
the head / socket is clean (de-rusted, paint removed, socket cleared
out) and then the correct size, strength and fit tool applied, also
ensuring you have suitable access to apply the required force easily
(and safely ... 'what happens if it does shear / slip' etc, where
will
my hand end up).

There is never enough access, cars are designed too small to get
spanners into.

Yet somehow, many seem to manage it?

With difficulty.

Par for the course mate. Many things people do aren't easy to anyone
who doesn't have their skills, that's how they become 'skilled' at
those tasks and so comparatively 'easy' for them. (Doh) ;-)

If you only have your own car to maintain, it's not worth the effort
becoming good at it

No effort required to be good enough at it to
not **** anything up when you change the oil.

to save a few bob (which you then go spend on tools).

Nope, already have all the tools.

And if it's rusted, it will not be strong enough to take the full
torque. You can't fix that.

I said 'rusted', not 'rusted away'.

Only the sharp bits of the hexagon shape need to rust for it to become a
circular bolt you cannot turn.

The 'sharp bit's will have to rust a log way before a 6 sided socket
won't turn them. And have you ever seen metal rust that way? What you
will normally find is the whole head gets smaller.

The sharp bits are the bits that take the torque, so they break off.

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you
have never had a ****ing clue about anything at all, ever.

Nothing breaks off when you use the correct socket on the sump plug.

If it doesn't move with force typical for that application you then
apply a range of different procedure depending on the specific
situation. They could include releasing fluids and time (like Plus
Gas, not WD40), impact, either rotationally (air / electric 'rattle
gun') or longitudinally (hammer) to shock the joint loose or heat
(big
soldering iron, blowlamp, induction heater etc). You may even resort
(depending on why it won't undo) to using a hacksaw or Dremel and
cutting a slot across a damaged X-head, Allen, Torx or spline or
'flats' across a damaged hex headed bolt to give some new contact
positions for other tools, like a punch / drift or flat bladed
screwdriver on what was a x-head (Phillips / Pozi [1]) or Mole grips
on what was a hex head.

That sounds like far too much effort.

Now we are getting to it.

Easier to give £20 to a mechanic.

Yes, quite, you don't find it easy or interesting (and have a history
of breaking such things) so you would rather have someone else do it.

I do things myself to save large amounts of money, not small amounts.

More fool you.

or just how well an Allen key should fit.

Eh? That's common sense.

You would think ... but by the sound of it it's something that you
could easily get wrong? ;-)

I never have a problem with Allen or Torx.

Then again, I suggest you have never been confronted by a tricky one,
especially one still full of mud

Cleaning mud isn't rocket science.

or previously mullered by someone
using the wrong size key or quality of key (not hard enough).

I've never encountered anyone stupid enough not to know what size to use.

Then you need to get out more.

If it doesn't fit, it's the wrong size.

If it does fit but is the wrong size, you discover its
the wrong size when you **** the head by using
a hex in a torx etc just because it does sort of fit.

--
My wife and I were watching Who Wants To Be A Millionaire while we were in
bed.
I turned to her and said, "Do you want to have sex?"
"No," she answered.
I then said, "Is that your final answer?"
She didn't even look at me this time, simply saying, "Yes...."
So I said, "Then I'd like to phone a friend."
And that's when the fight started...