We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.

mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.

Have you checked that the pressure relief valve is seating properly?
A common cause of pressure loss. Normally just turn the knob a few times
with the system pressurised to clear any crud from the seat.

On 27/11/2016 12:56, mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.


Can you isolate sections by adding ball valves, then you could narrow
down the likely fault area.
But first off have you checked the obvious stuff like the pressure
relief valve (which can and do leak after a time) Air bleed valve
(mine is a brass pot on the pump) Pressure in the pressure vessel (if
this has no air pressure then system pressure can go high and lose water
through the pressure relief valve)

On 27/11/2016 13:15, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 12:56, mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.


Can you isolate sections by adding ball valves, then you could narrow
down the likely fault area.
But first off have you checked the obvious stuff like the pressure
relief valve (which can and do leak after a time) Air bleed valve
(mine is a brass pot on the pump) Pressure in the pressure vessel (if
this has no air pressure then system pressure can go high and lose water
through the pressure relief valve)


Yup this...

If you tie a sandwich bag (or similar) over the end of the pressure
relief pipe outside with a rubber band, you will be able to see if any
water is being discharged though that over the day.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.

If you can't see any damp patches or pools of water indoors, then the water
is going outside. If it needs topping up daily, you couldn't possibly have
missed an internal leak as it would amount to a small bucket full every day.
As others have said, the water is being expelled outdoors via the pressure
relief valve.....and I find it impossible to believe that BG didn't already
know this

my leak was hidden behing a bed ! .....

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 13:58:38 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 27/11/2016 13:15, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 12:56, mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.


Can you isolate sections by adding ball valves, then you could narrow
down the likely fault area.
But first off have you checked the obvious stuff like the pressure
relief valve (which can and do leak after a time) Air bleed valve
(mine is a brass pot on the pump) Pressure in the pressure vessel (if
this has no air pressure then system pressure can go high and lose water
through the pressure relief valve)

Yup this...

If you tie a sandwich bag (or similar) over the end of the pressure
relief pipe outside with a rubber band, you will be able to see if any
water is being discharged though that over the day.

Yes, actually I had a bag over the condensate pipe all day today
(with the boiler off) to check for leakage via that - nothing. The
PSV was replaced last week when this problem first surfaced, and the
washers and seating were perfectly dry. There must be considerable
water being lost somewhere but no sign of it on the surface, around
rads, hot water cylinder or boiler. The BG guy is coming next week
to blank off the pipework in order to separate the boiler from the
rad feed pipework. Not sure which is the most expensive outcome as
apparently the boiler is now too old to have full parts support.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 14:10:34 -0000, Phil L wrote:

If you can't see any damp patches or pools of water indoors, then the water
is going outside. If it needs topping up daily, you couldn't possibly have
missed an internal leak as it would amount to a small bucket full every day.
As others have said, the water is being expelled outdoors via the pressure
relief valve.....and I find it impossible to believe that BG didn't already
know this

There is also the possibility of discharge from a joint into the
earth, as we have suspended timber floor about half a meter off the
ground. It is a lot of water as you say - hard to miss.

On 27/11/16 14:10, Phil L wrote:
mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.

If you can't see any damp patches or pools of water indoors, then the water
is going outside. If it needs topping up daily, you couldn't possibly have
missed an internal leak as it would amount to a small bucket full every day.
As others have said, the water is being expelled outdoors via the pressure
relief valve.....and I find it impossible to believe that BG didn't already
know this


When this happened to a mates boiler, it was simply the pressure vessel
needed pumping up.

WE would top up the CH primary, but as soon as it got hot it would blow
the pressure relief valve and dump water outside.

Pumping up the expansion thing with a car pump to around - cant remember
- look it up online - is simple and cheap and may fix the problem.

OTOH the boiler here, had to have a whole new expansion tank..


--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

On 27/11/16 13:58, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/11/2016 13:15, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 12:56, mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.


Can you isolate sections by adding ball valves, then you could narrow
down the likely fault area.
But first off have you checked the obvious stuff like the pressure
relief valve (which can and do leak after a time) Air bleed valve
(mine is a brass pot on the pump) Pressure in the pressure vessel (if
this has no air pressure then system pressure can go high and lose water
through the pressure relief valve)


Yup this...

If you tie a sandwich bag (or similar)

Condom.

over the end of the pressure
relief pipe outside with a rubber band, you will be able to see if any
water is being discharged though that over the day.



--
Those who want slavery should have the grace to name it by its proper
name. They must face the full meaning of that which they are advocating
or condoning; the full, exact, specific meaning of collectivism, of its
logical implications, of the principles upon which it is based, and of
the ultimate consequences to which these principles will lead. They must
face it, then decide whether this is what they want or not.

Ayn Rand.

On 27/11/2016 15:37, mechanic wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 13:58:38 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 27/11/2016 13:15, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 12:56, mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.


Can you isolate sections by adding ball valves, then you could narrow
down the likely fault area.
But first off have you checked the obvious stuff like the pressure
relief valve (which can and do leak after a time) Air bleed valve
(mine is a brass pot on the pump) Pressure in the pressure vessel (if
this has no air pressure then system pressure can go high and lose water
through the pressure relief valve)

Yup this...

If you tie a sandwich bag (or similar) over the end of the pressure
relief pipe outside with a rubber band, you will be able to see if any
water is being discharged though that over the day.

Yes, actually I had a bag over the condensate pipe all day today
(with the boiler off) to check for leakage via that - nothing. The
PSV was replaced last week when this problem first surfaced, and the
washers and seating were perfectly dry. There must be considerable
water being lost somewhere but no sign of it on the surface, around
rads, hot water cylinder or boiler. The BG guy is coming next week
to blank off the pipework in order to separate the boiler from the
rad feed pipework. Not sure which is the most expensive outcome as
apparently the boiler is now too old to have full parts support.


The pressure relief pipe would be the most likely, if your loss is from
the condensate pipe then the boiler heat exchanger has gone, in which
case it is probably time for a new boiler.

On 27/11/2016 15:55, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 27/11/16 14:10, Phil L wrote:
mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.

If you can't see any damp patches or pools of water indoors, then the
water
is going outside. If it needs topping up daily, you couldn't possibly
have
missed an internal leak as it would amount to a small bucket full
every day.
As others have said, the water is being expelled outdoors via the
pressure
relief valve.....and I find it impossible to believe that BG didn't
already
know this


When this happened to a mates boiler, it was simply the pressure vessel
needed pumping up.

WE would top up the CH primary, but as soon as it got hot it would blow
the pressure relief valve and dump water outside.

Pumping up the expansion thing with a car pump to around - cant remember
- look it up online - is simple and cheap and may fix the problem.

OTOH the boiler here, had to have a whole new expansion tank..



they are very cheap and easy to fit and practically a consumable item.
However, until the PRV pipe is checked no-one can tell.

On 27/11/2016 15:39, mechanic wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 14:10:34 -0000, Phil L wrote:

If you can't see any damp patches or pools of water indoors, then the water
is going outside. If it needs topping up daily, you couldn't possibly have
missed an internal leak as it would amount to a small bucket full every day.
As others have said, the water is being expelled outdoors via the pressure
relief valve.....and I find it impossible to believe that BG didn't already
know this

There is also the possibility of discharge from a joint into the
earth, as we have suspended timber floor about half a meter off the
ground. It is a lot of water as you say - hard to miss.


If you've definitely ruled out the pressure relief valve, it's got to be
a leak under the ground floor boards. Half a meter is a bit of a
squeeze, but you may be able to crawl under there to take a look. (Take
a mobile phone with you, so you can call the fire brigade if you get
stuck. That'll give them some fun!) You can probably get access via the
under stairs cupboard without wrecking the downstairs floors. Do you
know any small, slim, agile people, who aren't scared of spiders?

Or get one of those USB cams, but it will be very hard to spot what
won't be much more than a steady drip of water. It'll just soak into the
ground under the house, particularly if you are on sand.

In article ,
GB wrote:
On 27/11/2016 15:39, mechanic wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 14:10:34 -0000, Phil L wrote:

If you can't see any damp patches or pools of water indoors, then the water
is going outside. If it needs topping up daily, you couldn't possibly have
missed an internal leak as it would amount to a small bucket full every day.
As others have said, the water is being expelled outdoors via the pressure
relief valve.....and I find it impossible to believe that BG didn't already
know this

There is also the possibility of discharge from a joint into the
earth, as we have suspended timber floor about half a meter off the
ground. It is a lot of water as you say - hard to miss.


If you've definitely ruled out the pressure relief valve, it's got to be
a leak under the ground floor boards. Half a meter is a bit of a
squeeze, but you may be able to crawl under there to take a look.

[Snip]

send a small child down. When we bought our first house it needed wiring
and my wife's youngest brother who was about 8 yo, thought it was great fun
to crawl under the floorboards pulling cables.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:13:52 +0000, MrCheerful wrote:

The pressure relief pipe would be the most likely, if your loss is from
the condensate pipe then the boiler heat exchanger has gone, in which
case it is probably time for a new boiler.

No drips from the condensation pipe over six hours or so, during
which the pressure dropped by about one bar. Our British Gas
'engineer' suggested this to rule out the heat exchanger (apparently
no spares of this model now available).

I'll check on the insurance cover tomorrow and explore the leak
detection company options. Drilling holes in our Amtico flooring or
ripping it up together with the plywood substrate doesn't appeal one
bit. Re-instating it would cost a small fortune.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:17:44 +0000, GB wrote:

Half a meter is a bit of a squeeze, but you may be able to crawl
under there to take a look.

I exaggerated - it's really about 300mm. We have air bricks in the
walls for ventilation - maybe the BG fibre optic probe thingie may
spot a pool of water.

On 27/11/2016 17:38, mechanic wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:13:52 +0000, MrCheerful wrote:

.... snipped Our British Gas
'engineer' suggested this to rule out the heat exchanger (apparently
no spares of this model now available).

.... snipped

May not be relevant to your actual problem but BG are renowned for
saying that spares aren't available when they often are. Bear this in
mind if the problem turns out to be in the boiler and they recommend a
boiler replacement!

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 17:38:58 -0000, mechanic wrote:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:13:52 +0000, MrCheerful wrote:

The pressure relief pipe would be the most likely, if your loss is from
the condensate pipe then the boiler heat exchanger has gone, in which
case it is probably time for a new boiler.

No drips from the condensation pipe over six hours or so, during
which the pressure dropped by about one bar. Our British Gas
'engineer' suggested this to rule out the heat exchanger (apparently
no spares of this model now available).

I'll check on the insurance cover tomorrow and explore the leak
detection company options. Drilling holes in our Amtico flooring or
ripping it up together with the plywood substrate doesn't appeal one
bit. Re-instating it would cost a small fortune.

Is there no way you can at least peer under the floor with a torch and spot water?

--
Women have large buttocks because they need airbags behind them. They're **** at reversing.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 15:55:53 -0000, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 27/11/16 14:10, Phil L wrote:
mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.

If you can't see any damp patches or pools of water indoors, then the water
is going outside. If it needs topping up daily, you couldn't possibly have
missed an internal leak as it would amount to a small bucket full every day.
As others have said, the water is being expelled outdoors via the pressure
relief valve.....and I find it impossible to believe that BG didn't already
know this


When this happened to a mates boiler, it was simply the pressure vessel
needed pumping up.

Ah the wonders of the traditional gravity fed top up tank.... If I lose a bit of water I simply don't give a damn!

--
Pain is Weakness Leaving the Body - US Marines

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 14:40:52 -0000, Jimbo in the near of Hawick ... wrote:


my leak was hidden behing a bed ! .....

Is that a euphemism?

--
Why is there no Disneyland in China?
No one's tall enough to go on the good rides.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
On 27/11/2016 13:15, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 12:56, mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.


Can you isolate sections by adding ball valves, then you could narrow
down the likely fault area.
But first off have you checked the obvious stuff like the pressure
relief valve (which can and do leak after a time) Air bleed valve
(mine is a brass pot on the pump) Pressure in the pressure vessel (if
this has no air pressure then system pressure can go high and lose water
through the pressure relief valve)


Yup this...

If you tie a sandwich bag (or similar) over the end of the pressure relief
pipe outside with a rubber band, you will be able to see if any water is
being discharged though that over the day.

Hell of an indictment of British Gas if they havent checked for that tho.

"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 14:40:52 -0000, Jimbo in the near of Hawick ...
wrote:


my leak was hidden behing a bed ! .....

Is that a euphemism?

no

On 27/11/2016 15:37, mechanic wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 13:58:38 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 27/11/2016 13:15, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 12:56, mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.


Can you isolate sections by adding ball valves, then you could narrow
down the likely fault area.
But first off have you checked the obvious stuff like the pressure
relief valve (which can and do leak after a time) Air bleed valve
(mine is a brass pot on the pump) Pressure in the pressure vessel (if
this has no air pressure then system pressure can go high and lose water
through the pressure relief valve)

Yup this...

If you tie a sandwich bag (or similar) over the end of the pressure
relief pipe outside with a rubber band, you will be able to see if any
water is being discharged though that over the day.

Yes, actually I had a bag over the condensate pipe all day today
(with the boiler off) to check for leakage via that - nothing. The
PSV was replaced last week when this problem first surfaced, and the
washers and seating were perfectly dry. There must be considerable
water being lost somewhere but no sign of it on the surface, around
rads, hot water cylinder or boiler. The BG guy is coming next week
to blank off the pipework in order to separate the boiler from the
rad feed pipework. Not sure which is the most expensive outcome as
apparently the boiler is now too old to have full parts support.

Even if the PRV is working properly and not letting by, you can still
get a problem due to over pressure if the expansion vessel has failed or
needs pumping up. However I would have expected that would have been one
of the first things they would have checked...



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 27/11/2016 17:38, mechanic wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:13:52 +0000, MrCheerful wrote:

The pressure relief pipe would be the most likely, if your loss is from
the condensate pipe then the boiler heat exchanger has gone, in which
case it is probably time for a new boiler.

No drips from the condensation pipe over six hours or so, during

Note that the condensate pipe is quite a different thing from the over
pressure relief pipe. (one would expect the condensate pipe to pass
water periodically - but that is not water from the primary side of the
heating circuit.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In article ,
wrote:
On 27/11/2016 17:38, mechanic wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:13:52 +0000, MrCheerful wrote:

... snipped Our British Gas
'engineer' suggested this to rule out the heat exchanger (apparently
no spares of this model now available).

... snipped

May not be relevant to your actual problem but BG are renowned for
saying that spares aren't available when they often are. Bear this in
mind if the problem turns out to be in the boiler and they recommend a
boiler replacement!

Agreed. Some years ago the boiler in our village hall stopped working and
someone called BG. No spares for a boiler of that age.

So I called a boiler expert who took one look, rang someone on his mobile
"Fred, have you got a ??? for a ??? ?" "Good, I'll collect it later today."

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On 27/11/2016 20:00, John Rumm wrote:
On 27/11/2016 15:37, mechanic wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 13:58:38 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

On 27/11/2016 13:15, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 12:56, mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.


Can you isolate sections by adding ball valves, then you could narrow
down the likely fault area.
But first off have you checked the obvious stuff like the pressure
relief valve (which can and do leak after a time) Air bleed valve
(mine is a brass pot on the pump) Pressure in the pressure vessel (if
this has no air pressure then system pressure can go high and lose
water
through the pressure relief valve)

Yup this...

If you tie a sandwich bag (or similar) over the end of the pressure
relief pipe outside with a rubber band, you will be able to see if any
water is being discharged though that over the day.

Yes, actually I had a bag over the condensate pipe all day today
(with the boiler off) to check for leakage via that - nothing. The
PSV was replaced last week when this problem first surfaced, and the
washers and seating were perfectly dry. There must be considerable
water being lost somewhere but no sign of it on the surface, around
rads, hot water cylinder or boiler. The BG guy is coming next week
to blank off the pipework in order to separate the boiler from the
rad feed pipework. Not sure which is the most expensive outcome as
apparently the boiler is now too old to have full parts support.

Even if the PRV is working properly and not letting by, you can still
get a problem due to over pressure if the expansion vessel has failed or
needs pumping up. However I would have expected that would have been one
of the first things they would have checked...



When I had a similar problem I undid the fill valve on the expansion
vessel and water poured out - at least there wasn't much doubt about
what the problem was!

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 19:14:58 -0000, Jimbo in the near of Hawick ... wrote:


"James Wilkinson Sword" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 14:40:52 -0000, Jimbo in the near of Hawick ...
wrote:


my leak was hidden behing a bed ! .....

Is that a euphemism?

no

So you eventually discovered you weren't a bedwetter after all :-)

--
Have you heard the slogan for Trojan's new "Stealth" Condom?
"They'll never see you coming."

On 11/27/2016 2:10 PM, Phil L wrote:
mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.

If you can't see any damp patches or pools of water indoors, then the water
is going outside. If it needs topping up daily, you couldn't possibly have
missed an internal leak as it would amount to a small bucket full every day.
As others have said, the water is being expelled outdoors via the pressure
relief valve.....and I find it impossible to believe that BG didn't already
know this


Are the floors downstairs solid or suspended? You could easily miss a
modest sized leak there. Years ago, one of my neighbours had a failure
of his bathroom grey water drain which created a small lake under the
living room, and he only discovered that when he had to take floorboards
up for rewiring.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:11:17 -0000, newshound wrote:

On 11/27/2016 2:10 PM, Phil L wrote:
mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.

If you can't see any damp patches or pools of water indoors, then the water
is going outside. If it needs topping up daily, you couldn't possibly have
missed an internal leak as it would amount to a small bucket full every day.
As others have said, the water is being expelled outdoors via the pressure
relief valve.....and I find it impossible to believe that BG didn't already
know this


Are the floors downstairs solid or suspended? You could easily miss a
modest sized leak there. Years ago, one of my neighbours had a failure
of his bathroom grey water drain which created a small lake under the
living room, and he only discovered that when he had to take floorboards
up for rewiring.

Wouldn't that have created a stench?

--
Today's woman puts on wigs, fake eyelashes, false fingernails, sixteen pounds of assorted make-up/shadows/blushes/creams, living bras, various pads that would make a linebacker envious, has implants and assorted other surgeries, then complains that she cannot find a "real" man.

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 17:38:58 -0000, mechanic
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:13:52 +0000, MrCheerful wrote:

The pressure relief pipe would be the most likely, if your loss is
from the condensate pipe then the boiler heat exchanger has gone,
in which case it is probably time for a new boiler.

No drips from the condensation pipe over six hours or so, during
which the pressure dropped by about one bar. Our British Gas
'engineer' suggested this to rule out the heat exchanger (apparently
no spares of this model now available).

I'll check on the insurance cover tomorrow and explore the leak
detection company options. Drilling holes in our Amtico flooring or
ripping it up together with the plywood substrate doesn't appeal one
bit. Re-instating it would cost a small fortune.

Is there no way you can at least peer under the floor with a torch
and spot water?

If he could do this easily he would have done it.
He has said that he has very posh flooring and to rip it up would be very
expensive.
What part of that do you find so difficult to understand?

On Sunday, 27 November 2016 12:56:07 UTC, mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.

I had a cracked heat exchanger. It was a condensing boiler, so the leaked water was simply piped to the drain. So have a look at the condensate discharge (note: *not* the pressure relief pipe - that's entirely different) when the boiler is off.

Another alternative, if the boiler is feeding an indirect hot water cylinder, is a leak from primary to secondary within the cylinder. This would be difficult to spot unless the leakage rate is high enough to cause the header tank to overflow, which would happen only if none of the taps in the house are run for an extended period...

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:28:04 -0000, Mr Pounder Esquire wrote:

James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 17:38:58 -0000, mechanic
wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:13:52 +0000, MrCheerful wrote:

The pressure relief pipe would be the most likely, if your loss is
from the condensate pipe then the boiler heat exchanger has gone,
in which case it is probably time for a new boiler.

No drips from the condensation pipe over six hours or so, during
which the pressure dropped by about one bar. Our British Gas
'engineer' suggested this to rule out the heat exchanger (apparently
no spares of this model now available).

I'll check on the insurance cover tomorrow and explore the leak
detection company options. Drilling holes in our Amtico flooring or
ripping it up together with the plywood substrate doesn't appeal one
bit. Re-instating it would cost a small fortune.

Is there no way you can at least peer under the floor with a torch
and spot water?

If he could do this easily he would have done it.
He has said that he has very posh flooring and to rip it up would be very
expensive.
What part of that do you find so difficult to understand?

Someone fitting a floor without a trapdoor. My neighbour has such a posh floor, but he fitted it himself and did it properly, with access under the house.

Mind you, a decent carpet is much nicer to walk on than wood.

--
Keith was explaining to his sister how to jump start a car.
"I explained about which cables to hook up where and in what order.
She said, 'ok, I got all that, so now, which car do you start first?'"

On 27/11/2016 21:45, David wrote:

snip

Another alternative, if the boiler is feeding an indirect hot water
cylinder, is a leak from primary to secondary within the cylinder.
This would be difficult to spot unless the leakage rate is high
enough to cause the header tank to overflow, which would happen only
if none of the taps in the house are run for an extended period...

Why would running a tap make any difference?

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 13:45:00 -0800 (PST), David wrote:

Another alternative, if the boiler is feeding an indirect hot
water cylinder, is a leak from primary to secondary within the
cylinder. This would be difficult to spot unless the leakage
rate is high enough to cause the header tank to overflow, which
would happen only if none of the taps in the house are run for an
extended period...

Header tank?

On 27/11/2016 21:59, Fredxxx wrote:
On 27/11/2016 21:45, David wrote:

snip

Another alternative, if the boiler is feeding an indirect hot water
cylinder, is a leak from primary to secondary within the cylinder.
This would be difficult to spot unless the leakage rate is high
enough to cause the header tank to overflow, which would happen only
if none of the taps in the house are run for an extended period...

Why would running a tap make any difference?

if the hot water store tank is open vented and the heating system is
pressurised and leaking into the hot water cylinder then the water level
in the supply tank for the hot water tank will rise until the heating
system pressure has equalised with the hot tank. It would only be
likely to cause an overflow if the heating system was repressurised
multiple times without letting any hot water out of the hot water cylinder.

On 27/11/2016 22:18, mechanic wrote:
On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 13:45:00 -0800 (PST), David wrote:

Another alternative, if the boiler is feeding an indirect hot
water cylinder, is a leak from primary to secondary within the
cylinder. This would be difficult to spot unless the leakage
rate is high enough to cause the header tank to overflow, which
would happen only if none of the taps in the house are run for an
extended period...

Header tank?


for the non pressurised hot water cylinder. If it was a pressurised
cylinder (with an internal leak) then the heating system pressure would
rise.

On 27/11/2016 22:23, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 21:59, Fredxxx wrote:
On 27/11/2016 21:45, David wrote:

snip

Another alternative, if the boiler is feeding an indirect hot water
cylinder, is a leak from primary to secondary within the cylinder.
This would be difficult to spot unless the leakage rate is high
enough to cause the header tank to overflow, which would happen only
if none of the taps in the house are run for an extended period...

Why would running a tap make any difference?

if the hot water store tank is open vented and the heating system is
pressurised and leaking into the hot water cylinder then the water level
in the supply tank for the hot water tank will rise until the heating
system pressure has equalised with the hot tank. It would only be
likely to cause an overflow if the heating system was repressurised
multiple times without letting any hot water out of the hot water cylinder.

Ah - I see what your getting at. Apologies.

On 27/11/2016 23:02, Fredxxx wrote:
On 27/11/2016 22:23, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 21:59, Fredxxx wrote:
On 27/11/2016 21:45, David wrote:

snip

Another alternative, if the boiler is feeding an indirect hot water
cylinder, is a leak from primary to secondary within the cylinder.
This would be difficult to spot unless the leakage rate is high
enough to cause the header tank to overflow, which would happen only
if none of the taps in the house are run for an extended period...

Why would running a tap make any difference?

if the hot water store tank is open vented and the heating system is
pressurised and leaking into the hot water cylinder then the water level
in the supply tank for the hot water tank will rise until the heating
system pressure has equalised with the hot tank. It would only be
likely to cause an overflow if the heating system was repressurised
multiple times without letting any hot water out of the hot water
cylinder.

Ah - I see what your getting at. Apologies.

I was just explaining it,
It wasn't my suggestion, it is an unlikely scenario IMO.

A PRV, pressure vessel leak, air release valve or rad or pipe leak, in
that order seem much higher possibilities. Particularly if there is
underfloor heating then :a pipe leak.

I'd have thought a water leak this serious could be heard or observed by
some tell tale things like condensation in odd places etc, dampness and
other more annoying things like fungal or mould growth in funny places,
even a smell in a room.
Brian

--
----- -
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
The Sofa of Brian Gaff...

Blind user, so no pictures please!
"MrCheerful" wrote in message
...
On 27/11/2016 12:56, mechanic wrote:
We have a problem with pressure loss in our central heating system.
Topping up each day and loosing 1bar or so in a matter of hours
shows something is wrong. Brit. Gas have said there must be a leak
and they've got to the stage of suggesting taking up flooring to
inspect pipes and junctions. This is getting expensive and
disruptive! BG have a £1000 limit on their part of repair and making
good costs. Have people tried:

http://www.adileakdetection.co.uk/le...tion-services/
http://www.leakdetectionspecialists....erty-leaks.htm
http://www.leakbusters.net/
(There are others)

Any experience with one of these companies? Pin-pointing the leak
position may save money in the long term, even though the survey
will cost a few hundred pounds. I've yet to explore the home
insurance angle to reclaim some costs.


Can you isolate sections by adding ball valves, then you could narrow down
the likely fault area.
But first off have you checked the obvious stuff like the pressure relief
valve (which can and do leak after a time) Air bleed valve (mine is a
brass pot on the pump) Pressure in the pressure vessel (if this has no
air pressure then system pressure can go high and lose water through the
pressure relief valve)

On Sunday, 27 November 2016 23:08:07 UTC, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 23:02, Fredxxx wrote:
On 27/11/2016 22:23, MrCheerful wrote:
On 27/11/2016 21:59, Fredxxx wrote:
On 27/11/2016 21:45, David wrote:

snip

Another alternative, if the boiler is feeding an indirect hot water
cylinder, is a leak from primary to secondary within the cylinder.
This would be difficult to spot unless the leakage rate is high
enough to cause the header tank to overflow, which would happen only
if none of the taps in the house are run for an extended period...


snip it is an unlikely scenario IMO.

A PRV, pressure vessel leak, air release valve or rad or pipe leak, in
that order seem much higher possibilities. Particularly if there is
underfloor heating then :a pipe leak.

I agree entirely. From the sound of it, though, the OP (and British Gas) are well on the way to eliminating the likely scenarios, so I thought I'd chip in with something more unlikely