I have a first floor flat, with an entrance hall downstairs on the
ground floor. The flat has gas central heating and radiators in all
rooms except for the downstairs entrance hall. The downstairs
entrance hall smells musty and is cold and I have to regularly clean
to door as mould starts to form.

At first I thought the problem might be with the damp proofing, done
some 5 years ago. So I called in the damp proofing company to inspect
under their guarantee. They confirmed that the damp proofing course
was fine, but that the problem was due to condensation produced by
washing machine, dishwasher, cooking, clothes drying etc.

The recommended solution is to put in an extractor fan that detects
when the level of moisture is high, and then extracts this to outside.
So far so good! The damp proofing company has recommended that this
extractor fan is put in the upstairs kitchen (which is some
considerable distance away from the downstairs entrance hall), the
rationale being that this is where most of moisture in the air comes
from.

As the work will cost £300, I just wanted to double check here with
the experts, that an moisture triggered extractor fan in one room,
will sort out the problem for the whole house. I'd appreciate a
second opinion.

Has anyone else had experience of such a solution, or can offer any
advice.

Thanks in advance for any advice given.

Best Regards,

Robin

As the work will cost £300, I just wanted to double check here with
the experts, that an moisture triggered extractor fan in one room,
will sort out the problem for the whole house.

It may or may not. Assuming that penetrating and rising damp is definitely
not a problem, then the basic problem is that the downstairs entrance hall
has cold, wet air. The extractor fan will hopefully reduce the moisture, but
the real difference between that part of the flat and the rest is that there
is no heating.

As the wet air tumbles down the stairs, it gets progressively colder. Cold
air can't hold moisture, so it condenses out onto the walls.

It is certainly a very good idea to have a kitchen extractor anyway. I would
be inclined to see if it helped before determining if another cause is
indicated, as you should have one anyway.

Other things you should be checking are that you do not have flueless gas
heating and that you don't dry clothes by putting on a radiator, or use a
vented tumble dryer with no vent.

Christian.

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
. net

As the work will cost £300 (Healthy and not injudicious snip applied -others please note!)
How much will it cost to open the windows now and again?


--
Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message .net...
As the work will cost £300, I just wanted to double check here with
the experts, that an moisture triggered extractor fan in one room,
will sort out the problem for the whole house.

It may or may not. Assuming that penetrating and rising damp is definitely
not a problem, then the basic problem is that the downstairs entrance hall
has cold, wet air. The extractor fan will hopefully reduce the moisture, but
the real difference between that part of the flat and the rest is that there
is no heating.

As the wet air tumbles down the stairs, it gets progressively colder. Cold
air can't hold moisture, so it condenses out onto the walls.

It is certainly a very good idea to have a kitchen extractor anyway. I would
be inclined to see if it helped before determining if another cause is
indicated, as you should have one anyway.

Other things you should be checking are that you do not have flueless gas
heating and that you don't dry clothes by putting on a radiator, or use a
vented tumble dryer with no vent.

Christian.

Hi Christian,

Thank you for your response.

I had a Valiant Gas Boiler installed recently, which I guess is
properly vented - it certainly has a vent to the exterior wall.

I do indeed dry clothes in the hall, not by putting them on a
radiator, but by using a Victorian clothes dryer. I suppose this
cannot help. I also have a washer/dryer (a Bosch Classixx Wash and
Dry) with no apparent external vent. Combining this with a
dishwasher, and cooking, I guess that (as you say) an external kitchen
extractor would be no bad thing, so think I will go ahead and get that
fitted, and see whether the downstairs mustiness goes away.

I guess it might not, but I suppose that it may be general consequence
of the poor design of what is a converted house rather than a purpose
built flat.

Thank you again.

Robin.

On 23 Dec 2003 10:40:19 -0800, (Robin Smith)
wrote:

Hi Christian,

Thank you for your response.

I had a Valiant Gas Boiler installed recently, which I guess is
properly vented - it certainly has a vent to the exterior wall.

I do indeed dry clothes in the hall, not by putting them on a
radiator, but by using a Victorian clothes dryer. I suppose this
cannot help. I also have a washer/dryer (a Bosch Classixx Wash and
Dry) with no apparent external vent. Combining this with a
dishwasher, and cooking, I guess that (as you say) an external kitchen
extractor would be no bad thing, so think I will go ahead and get that
fitted, and see whether the downstairs mustiness goes away.

I guess it might not, but I suppose that it may be general consequence
of the poor design of what is a converted house rather than a purpose
built flat.


Sorry, missed the first part of this thread.

If you are drying clothes in the house, all the moisture in the
clothes (think of the weight of a wet sweater/pair of jeans, etc)
ends up in the atmosphere.

If you have damp problems that's just a No-No.

I'd suggest you vent the kitchen with a (not the smallest) ventilator,
and same with the bathroom. And you dry your clothes in there, and
keep the door shut.

Search the web for "Airflow".


Thank you again.

Robin.


DG

Robin Smith wrote

I suppose that it may be general consequence
of the poor design of what is a converted house rather than a purpose
built flat.

Robin, in what way you think the design of your flat is poor?

If you're hanging out clothes to dry indoors, and your washer-dryer is
evaporating all the moisture that it doesn't pump down the drain and then blows
the vapour all over the flat, what do you honestly expect? As a building
designer I can (at grossly uneconomic cost) insulate every surface so that
condensation is less likely to form, but without ventilation the vapour will
then just build up and up in the air until it reaches saturation point like a
steam bath, and then you'll have *everything* going damp and mouldy. The vapour
has to be able to escape out of the building.

Yes, the builder should have ideally put in an extractor fan, and if it's
controlled by a humidistat so much the better. But I don't think this will
solve it completely. You have to play your part as well by airing the flat as
often as possible - it's vital you open a window when you have a shower, or when
you're using the tumble drier or drying clothes, so that the vapour can escape
and ultimately return to the sea from whence it came )

All the best
Peter

Peter Taylor wrote:
Robin Smith wrote


I suppose that it may be general consequence
of the poor design of what is a converted house rather than a purpose
built flat.


Robin, in what way you think the design of your flat is poor?

If you're hanging out clothes to dry indoors, and your washer-dryer is
evaporating all the moisture that it doesn't pump down the drain and then blows
the vapour all over the flat, what do you honestly expect? As a building
designer I can (at grossly uneconomic cost) insulate every surface so that
condensation is less likely to form, but without ventilation the vapour will
then just build up and up in the air until it reaches saturation point like a
steam bath, and then you'll have *everything* going damp and mouldy. The vapour
has to be able to escape out of the building.

Yes, the builder should have ideally put in an extractor fan, and if it's
controlled by a humidistat so much the better. But I don't think this will
solve it completely. You have to play your part as well by airing the flat as
often as possible - it's vital you open a window when you have a shower, or when
you're using the tumble drier or drying clothes, so that the vapour can escape
and ultimately return to the sea from whence it came )

All the best
Peter


Yeah, have to agree somewhat with this. Downstairs has the same sq
footage as me, drylined like mine (previously it wasn't) and part dg
(I'm fully, apart from front door). They have a huge condensation
problem even on the dg windows. I don't. I have a window cracked open
almost permanently, and open others as necessary depending on what I'm
doing.

I dry clothes inside, though I do put some through the condensing
washer/drier (which is why there's no vent for it, it condenses
internally then gets pumped out the normal washing machine drain, just
for info) when there will be more needing drying space than I have space
for.

I have quite a lot of plants, which pushes up the humidity indoors. I
also have a fish tank, which can evaporate reasonable quantities of water.

Yet because the place is rarely sealed up tight (the kitchen window is
almost always open slightly) I only get condensation on the windows if
it's very very cold outside and I've been creating a lot of steam
(cooking, normally) - and even then it's not a lot.

The trick is to open the windows you need open when you're creating the
damp. Open the windows during cooking (it really doesn't get THAT cold
if you have them open just a bit, but makes a big difference to the
amount of damp in the air), don't shut the place up totally if there's
lots of damp washing, etc.

Velvet

On 23 Dec 2003 05:31:11 -0800, (Robin Smith)
wrote:



At first I thought the problem might be with the damp proofing, done
some 5 years ago. So I called in the damp proofing company to inspect
under their guarantee. They confirmed that the damp proofing course
was fine, but that the problem was due to condensation produced by
washing machine, dishwasher, cooking, clothes drying etc.


Might be a good idea to ask someone other than the company which
installed it.
This is not the first instance I've heard of where this sort of work
has been done, the problem has persisted but apparently the cause has
miraculously changed after the work has been done.

--
Niall

"Robin Smith" wrote in message
om...
I have a first floor flat, with an entrance hall downstairs on the
ground floor. The flat has gas central heating and radiators in all
rooms except for the downstairs entrance hall. The downstairs
entrance hall smells musty and is cold and I have to regularly clean
to door as mould starts to form.
sinp

Try opening the windows. Since it is damn cold at the moment the outside air
will be pretty dry. Let some of that in and see how you go. I personally
have the window in the bathroom open all the time, and kicthen whenever I
cook. I don't get too much condensation...

Although I did the other day when I had the windows shut, the heating on and
I washed 18sqM of tiled floor. Not really surprising...

Scott





Robin

On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 21:28:29 GMT, Velvet wrote:

Peter Taylor wrote:
Robin Smith wrote


I suppose that it may be general consequence
of the poor design of what is a converted house rather than a purpose
built flat.


Robin, in what way you think the design of your flat is poor?

If you're hanging out clothes to dry indoors, and your washer-dryer is
evaporating all the moisture that it doesn't pump down the drain and then blows
the vapour all over the flat, what do you honestly expect? As a building
designer I can (at grossly uneconomic cost) insulate every surface so that
condensation is less likely to form, but without ventilation the vapour will
then just build up and up in the air until it reaches saturation point like a
steam bath, and then you'll have *everything* going damp and mouldy. The vapour
has to be able to escape out of the building.

Yes, the builder should have ideally put in an extractor fan, and if it's
controlled by a humidistat so much the better. But I don't think this will
solve it completely. You have to play your part as well by airing the flat as
often as possible - it's vital you open a window when you have a shower, or when
you're using the tumble drier or drying clothes, so that the vapour can escape
and ultimately return to the sea from whence it came )

All the best
Peter


Yeah, have to agree somewhat with this. Downstairs has the same sq
footage as me, drylined like mine (previously it wasn't) and part dg
(I'm fully, apart from front door). They have a huge condensation
problem even on the dg windows. I don't. I have a window cracked open
almost permanently, and open others as necessary depending on what I'm
doing.

I dry clothes inside, though I do put some through the condensing
washer/drier (which is why there's no vent for it, it condenses
internally then gets pumped out the normal washing machine drain, just
for info) when there will be more needing drying space than I have space
for.

I have quite a lot of plants, which pushes up the humidity indoors. I
also have a fish tank, which can evaporate reasonable quantities of water.

Yet because the place is rarely sealed up tight (the kitchen window is
almost always open slightly) I only get condensation on the windows if
it's very very cold outside and I've been creating a lot of steam
(cooking, normally) - and even then it's not a lot.

The trick is to open the windows you need open when you're creating the
damp. Open the windows during cooking (it really doesn't get THAT cold
if you have them open just a bit, but makes a big difference to the
amount of damp in the air), don't shut the place up totally if there's
lots of damp washing, etc.

Velvet
Is the entrance hall 'airtight'? If so, would a little ventilation
their help in addition to an extractor fan in the kitchen?

Velvet wrote

Downstairs has the same sq
footage as me, drylined like mine (previously it wasn't) and part dg
(I'm fully, apart from front door). They have a huge condensation
problem even on the dg windows.

This is a real problem for people living in ground floor flats. You're out at
work all day and you have to keep the place secure. A fan running at trickle
speed 24/7 does help a lot.

I dry clothes inside, though I do put some through the condensing
washer/drier (which is why there's no vent for it, it condenses
internally then gets pumped out the normal washing machine drain, just
for info)

I looked at Robin's Bosch Classixx on the web. It didn't say anything about
condensing, but maybe that's a given.

The trick is to open the windows you need open when you're creating the
damp. Open the windows during cooking (it really doesn't get THAT cold
if you have them open just a bit, but makes a big difference to the
amount of damp in the air), don't shut the place up totally if there's
lots of damp washing, etc.

Yes - it's just common sense when you think about it.

We're not designed to live in a sealed environment. Besides washing and cooking
etc, we're all giving off moisture all the time just breathing and sweating. It
used to be the case that the Building Regs were part of the Public Health Act,
but I can't see how the recent regs requiring sealed buildings can be good for
people's health.

Peter

Try a dehumidifier - they can work wonders in reducing condensation and so
on without sucking all that expensively heated air out of the house. They
are a lot less than £300.

"Scott Mills" wrote in message
...

"Robin Smith" wrote in message
om...
I have a first floor flat, with an entrance hall downstairs on the
ground floor. The flat has gas central heating and radiators in all
rooms except for the downstairs entrance hall. The downstairs
entrance hall smells musty and is cold and I have to regularly clean
to door as mould starts to form.
sinp

Try opening the windows. Since it is damn cold at the moment the outside
air
will be pretty dry. Let some of that in and see how you go. I personally
have the window in the bathroom open all the time, and kicthen whenever I
cook. I don't get too much condensation...

Although I did the other day when I had the windows shut, the heating on
and
I washed 18sqM of tiled floor. Not really surprising...

Scott





Robin

In message
"Harry Ziman" wrote:

Try a dehumidifier - they can work wonders in reducing condensation and so
on without sucking all that expensively heated air out of the house. They
are a lot less than £300.

How well do they work in practice? How noisy are they?


Dane

--
Dane Koekoek

They work pretty well in my experience. You do need to empty them about once
per day. They do make some noise depending on the fan speed. About the same
as a PC computer fan at low speed, but bear in mind that they need to
situated in a place with free air movement - they can't be tucked away in a
distant corner of a closed bedroom and expect them to dry the whole house.

A time-clock can be used so they only work while you are out, although one
may need a little more power. Also I only bother running ours in winter when
there was a condensation problem, not in summer.

If the humidity is high, I would give it a go if you can.


"Dane Koekoek" wrote in message
...
In message
"Harry Ziman" wrote:

Try a dehumidifier - they can work wonders in reducing condensation and
so
on without sucking all that expensively heated air out of the house.
They
are a lot less than £300.

How well do they work in practice? How noisy are they?


Dane

--
Dane Koekoek

"Harry Ziman" wrote in message
...
They work pretty well in my experience. You do need to empty them about
once
per day. They do make some noise depending on the fan speed. About the
same
as a PC computer fan at low speed, but bear in mind that they need to
situated in a place with free air movement - they can't be tucked away in
a
distant corner of a closed bedroom and expect them to dry the whole house.


In my last house, before I had the damp proofing done, I was pulling the 5
litre bottle out once a day.

After all the new plaster had dried, it was probably about once a fortnight.

Mine is not too noisy, and although it is fairly small, the instructions say
it will dry the whole house if doors are left open.

Infortunately, mine is buggered. Anyone know how to fix the refrigerator
side of a dehumidifier?

Bob.