I have a problem with improving the rate at which our newly installed
bath drains. The old one was just as bad, the difficulty is the poor
design of the original installation which I am rather stuck with.

The bath is in a flat and is positioned about two or three meters from
the main service duct where the sewage downpipe is. The waste pipe
from the bath runs essentially horizontally from the trap under the
bath across to the downpipe. Not surprisingly, especially towards the
end, it drains very slowly. It's impossible to get at the connection
of the waste into the downpipe as it's inside a brick built service
duct, all you can get at is a 40mm 'socket' where it pokes through a
hole in the brickwork.

Can anyone suggest any clever ways to improve this? It'll be quite
difficult to do anything much about the drop in the pipe although
there is currently access from below (the kitchen) as the leaks from
the old bath and drain have caused a bit of the kitchen ceiling to
collapse. However even if we took the pipe down through the ceiling I
can't see how it could then be routed to the service duct without
major building work. I suppose it could join the waste pipe from the
kitchen sink but how would you prevent water 'welling up' into the
sink?

Is pumped waste possible? Are one-way valves for waste pipe
available?

The washbasin waste pipe is even worse, it has a near horizontal run
of four meters or so and the same difficulties of improving the drop
apply. It could run into the bath waste and gain some drop that way
but, again, how do you stop it coming up into the bath?

--
Chris Green )

Chris Green wrote
| The bath is in a flat and is positioned about two or three meters
| from the main service duct where the sewage downpipe is. The
| waste pipe from the bath runs essentially horizontally from the
| trap under the bath across to the downpipe. Not surprisingly,
| especially towards the end, it drains very slowly. It's impossible
| to get at the connection of the waste into the downpipe as it's
| inside a brick built service duct, all you can get at is a 40mm
| 'socket' where it pokes through a hole in the brickwork.
| Can anyone suggest any clever ways to improve this?

It's not clear if the bath outlet runs within the floor void or if it *has*
to, but if you could elevate the bath by a couple of inches (say by using a
couple of floor joist -like bits of wood on their sides as planks under the
bath feet) that might give you enough more fall on the pipe.

Even if the pipe has to stay within the floor void, elevating the bath a bit
should give an increase in flow because of the increased 'head', thus
encouraging most of the water out a bit quicker and reducing the amount that
sediments/stagnates in the flat bit of pipe.

Owain

wrote in message
...
I have a problem with improving the rate at which our newly installed
bath drains. The old one was just as bad, the difficulty is the poor
design of the original installation which I am rather stuck with.

The bath is in a flat and is positioned about two or three meters from
the main service duct where the sewage downpipe is. The waste pipe
from the bath runs essentially horizontally from the trap under the
bath across to the downpipe. Not surprisingly, especially towards the
end, it drains very slowly. It's impossible to get at the connection
of the waste into the downpipe as it's inside a brick built service
duct, all you can get at is a 40mm 'socket' where it pokes through a
hole in the brickwork.

Can anyone suggest any clever ways to improve this? It'll be quite
difficult to do anything much about the drop in the pipe although
there is currently access from below (the kitchen) as the leaks from
the old bath and drain have caused a bit of the kitchen ceiling to
collapse. However even if we took the pipe down through the ceiling I
can't see how it could then be routed to the service duct without
major building work. I suppose it could join the waste pipe from the
kitchen sink but how would you prevent water 'welling up' into the
sink?

Is pumped waste possible? Are one-way valves for waste pipe
available?

The washbasin waste pipe is even worse, it has a near horizontal run
of four meters or so and the same difficulties of improving the drop
apply. It could run into the bath waste and gain some drop that way
but, again, how do you stop it coming up into the bath?


Chris Green )

What size is the waste connection at the outlet for the kitchen system ? If
you have a 50mm out flow from the kitchen, then you can combine both the
bathroom and kitchen to the one outlet, and then cap the old bathroom waste
at the service duct. But this can only be done if the kitchen out flow is
50mm at the outlet to the main stack.

wrote in message
...
snip
The only thing that immediately occurs is to use a larger bore of pipe for
as much of the run as possible.
i.e. have large bore pipe from the sink and/or bath right up to the 40mm
socket in the trunking.
I think that this would ease the flow of the water by reducing the
resistance along most of the pipe; having said that I don't think modern
baths drain well at all.
ISTR that baths in old houses (and old hotels) used to drain much faster.
I have guessed that this is due to larger bore lead waste pipes in old
installations.

Other option is to raise the bath with a step next to it to make getting in
and out easy (opposite of a sunken bath).
This would give you a better head of water/drop over the length of the pipe
run.
You could also raise the basin by putting it on a raised base - but this
might look wierd :-)
Think of it as a part raised floor in the bathroom.

Combine the two - have a large bore pipe under the raised bath.

Our main bath drains slowly, and the waste just runs the length of the bath
(taps away from the outside wall) so I think you will be lucky to get
reasonably fast draining with anything but the shortest run.

Having a rambling day today :-)

Dave R

Owain wrote:
Chris Green wrote
| The bath is in a flat and is positioned about two or three meters
| from the main service duct where the sewage downpipe is. The
| waste pipe from the bath runs essentially horizontally from the
| trap under the bath across to the downpipe. Not surprisingly,
| especially towards the end, it drains very slowly. It's impossible
| to get at the connection of the waste into the downpipe as it's
| inside a brick built service duct, all you can get at is a 40mm
| 'socket' where it pokes through a hole in the brickwork.
| Can anyone suggest any clever ways to improve this?

It's not clear if the bath outlet runs within the floor void or if it *has*
to, but if you could elevate the bath by a couple of inches (say by using a
couple of floor joist -like bits of wood on their sides as planks under the
bath feet) that might give you enough more fall on the pipe.

Even if the pipe has to stay within the floor void, elevating the bath a bit
should give an increase in flow because of the increased 'head', thus
encouraging most of the water out a bit quicker and reducing the amount that
sediments/stagnates in the flat bit of pipe.

Elevating the bath isn't a very practical solution from the appearance
point of view though as the bath panels sort of fix the bath's height.

The existing waste pipe runs above floor level, it would be a real pig
to get it into the void as it would have to go through several joists.

The real problem though is the impossibility of moving the position of
the waste where it goes into the service duct. That's why I was
thinking of taking the waste down to the kitchen below, that gives
lots of gradient - much too much really - but that's an issue one can
deal with isn't it?

--
Chris Green )

BigWallop wrote:

What size is the waste connection at the outlet for the kitchen system ? If
you have a 50mm out flow from the kitchen, then you can combine both the
bathroom and kitchen to the one outlet, and then cap the old bathroom waste
at the service duct. But this can only be done if the kitchen out flow is
50mm at the outlet to the main stack.

Why exactly? Is that a building regulations thing? If do it's
something I haven't spotted.

--
Chris Green )

Chris Green wrote
| The bath is in a flat and is positioned about two or three meters
| from the main service duct where the sewage downpipe is. The
| waste pipe from the bath runs essentially horizontally from the
| trap under the bath across to the downpipe. Not surprisingly,
| especially towards the end, it drains very slowly. It's impossible
| to get at the connection of the waste into the downpipe as it's
| inside a brick built service duct, all you can get at is a 40mm
| 'socket' where it pokes through a hole in the brickwork.
| Can anyone suggest any clever ways to improve this?


Chris, are you absolutely sure that the entry into the foul downpipe is
truly clear? I had a similar problem in one of my flats that I eventually
traced to 'rusticles' on the inside of the cast iron down pipe catching a
hairball. Nothing was visable in the branch pipe until it was stripped out
to a bare socket when with a torch the problem was obvious and easily cured.

Another possibility is something I found in my own house. Basin waste pipe
joins main pipe from bath to downpipe at a 'Tee' which had been installed
with the 'swept' branch flowing towards the basin rather than towards the
outlet (yes I must have done it many years ago when I changed the bath -
1985 I think!). Turning the Tee made a vast difference.

Andrew Mawson

"David W.E. Roberts" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
snip
The only thing that immediately occurs is to use a larger bore of pipe for
as much of the run as possible.
i.e. have large bore pipe from the sink and/or bath right up to the 40mm
socket in the trunking.
I think that this would ease the flow of the water by reducing the
resistance along most of the pipe; having said that I don't think modern
baths drain well at all.
ISTR that baths in old houses (and old hotels) used to drain much faster.
I have guessed that this is due to larger bore lead waste pipes in old
installations.

Other option is to raise the bath with a step next to it to make getting
in
and out easy (opposite of a sunken bath).
This would give you a better head of water/drop over the length of the
pipe
run.
You could also raise the basin by putting it on a raised base - but this
might look wierd :-)
Think of it as a part raised floor in the bathroom.

Combine the two - have a large bore pipe under the raised bath.

Our main bath drains slowly, and the waste just runs the length of the
bath
(taps away from the outside wall) so I think you will be lucky to get
reasonably fast draining with anything but the shortest run.

Having a rambling day today :-)

Dave R



I had a similar problem after changing my bath. After looking at the 'plug
hole' I noticed that the old one had a sort of cast grid while the new one
was just drilled holes. By the time I noticed this I had already thrown the
old one out, and could not find the same type in my local suppliers. I
eased it slightly by cleaning up the holes and putting a sort of
'countersink' on them but it is still not as good as the old one.

While on the subject, my new toilet does not flush a s well as the old one
either.
And if I turn the taps on too quickly on the hand basin the water streams
out of the other side. I have decided that the older ones looked so
functional because they were. The newer ones look pretty because they are
not so functional.

Andrew Mawson wrote:

Chris Green wrote
| The bath is in a flat and is positioned about two or three meters
| from the main service duct where the sewage downpipe is. The
| waste pipe from the bath runs essentially horizontally from the
| trap under the bath across to the downpipe. Not surprisingly,
| especially towards the end, it drains very slowly. It's impossible
| to get at the connection of the waste into the downpipe as it's
| inside a brick built service duct, all you can get at is a 40mm
| 'socket' where it pokes through a hole in the brickwork.
| Can anyone suggest any clever ways to improve this?


Chris, are you absolutely sure that the entry into the foul downpipe is
truly clear? I had a similar problem in one of my flats that I eventually
traced to 'rusticles' on the inside of the cast iron down pipe catching a
hairball. Nothing was visable in the branch pipe until it was stripped out
to a bare socket when with a torch the problem was obvious and easily cured.

Pretty sure as the loo works perfectly and other peoples' waste goes
down the same downpipe quite successfully.


Another possibility is something I found in my own house. Basin waste pipe
joins main pipe from bath to downpipe at a 'Tee' which had been installed
with the 'swept' branch flowing towards the basin rather than towards the
outlet (yes I must have done it many years ago when I changed the bath -
1985 I think!). Turning the Tee made a vast difference.

No tees involved. It's *possible* that the point at which the 40mm
waste goes into the downpipe isn't perfect but there's little I can do
about that as it's very inaccessible.

--
Chris Green )

Get rid of the bath & install a shower cubicle on a stand with an extra step
if needed to elevate it, I did this about 15 yrs ago and we have never
missed the bath. A shower is healthier than wallowing in your own soapy
water and it's cheaper.
What about when you break you leg you ask, 'bin bag'.

Mike P.

Get rid of the bath & install a shower cubicle on a stand with an extra step
if needed to elevate it, I did this about 15 yrs ago and we have never
missed the bath since. A shower is healthier than wallowing in your own
soapy water and it's cheaper.
What about when you break you leg you ask, 'bin bag'.

Mike P.

wrote in message
...
BigWallop wrote:

What size is the waste connection at the outlet for the kitchen system ?
If
you have a 50mm out flow from the kitchen, then you can combine both the
bathroom and kitchen to the one outlet, and then cap the old bathroom
waste
at the service duct. But this can only be done if the kitchen out flow
is
50mm at the outlet to the main stack.

Why exactly? Is that a building regulations thing? If do it's
something I haven't spotted.


Chris Green )

The 50mm would be the minimum you'd need to take two or three appliances
emptying at the same time. If the bath and hand wash basin are both being
evacuated at once, and from that raised position, you'd need at least 50mm
pipework to take the flow required, or you're back in the same boat with a
slow running waste system.

I was always told that anyone can bring water in, but it takes a good
plumber to take it all away again safely and fast enough.

I have a problem with improving the rate at which our newly installed
bath drains. The old one was just as bad, the difficulty is the poor
design of the original installation which I am rather stuck with.


If the old one was as bad, you might have grease in the pipework
making it worse (causetic soda and caution) or a mchanical partial
block (bendy springy thing)

I didnt follow the setup entirely, but can you parallel your 2 waste
pipes? If you can that would speed it up to some extent.

Finally pumped waste is simple enough, but AFAIK you'd have to either
make the sensor and control circuit yourself, or else just use a
manually operated switch for the pump, preferably a push switch with
built in timer, as used in communal hallways etc.


Regards, NT

N. Thornton wrote:
I have a problem with improving the rate at which our newly installed
bath drains. The old one was just as bad, the difficulty is the poor
design of the original installation which I am rather stuck with.


If the old one was as bad, you might have grease in the pipework
making it worse (causetic soda and caution) or a mchanical partial
block (bendy springy thing)

I think it's more down to the simple lack of gradient.


I didnt follow the setup entirely, but can you parallel your 2 waste
pipes? If you can that would speed it up to some extent.

Not really much use as the washbasin one is much higher than the bath
so won't help the bath wast at all. There's no way to add extra waste
pipes because the downpipe is inaccessible in the service duct.


Finally pumped waste is simple enough, but AFAIK you'd have to either
make the sensor and control circuit yourself, or else just use a
manually operated switch for the pump, preferably a push switch with
built in timer, as used in communal hallways etc.

That could be the way to go, where does one get pumps, the only ones
I've seen are Saniflow ones which are too big for what I want, I want
a 40mm only pump.

--
Chris Green )

Mike P wrote:
Get rid of the bath & install a shower cubicle on a stand with an extra step
if needed to elevate it, I did this about 15 yrs ago and we have never
missed the bath. A shower is healthier than wallowing in your own soapy
water and it's cheaper.

My daughter just did exactly the opposite, she always showered until
recently but then discovered the luxury of a decent bath and wanted the
bath in the flat improved. That's why we now have a new bath there.


What about when you break you leg you ask, 'bin bag'.

.... another danger of showers! :-)

--
Chris Green )

In article ,
Mike P wrote:
Get rid of the bath & install a shower cubicle on a stand with an extra step
if needed to elevate it, I did this about 15 yrs ago and we have never
missed the bath. A shower is healthier than wallowing in your own soapy
water and it's cheaper.


Ah, but you can't fall asleep in the shower while reading the screwfix
catalogue can you?

Darren - or is that just me?

"Mike P" wrote
| A shower is healthier than wallowing in your own soapy
| water and it's cheaper.

But it's so difficult to hear the radio above the noise of the water, and
the spray splashes all over the place, gets the chocolate and library-book
wet, and dilutes the alcohol.

Owain

Get rid of the bath & install a shower cubicle on a stand with an extra
step
if needed to elevate it, I did this about 15 yrs ago and we have never
missed the bath. A shower is healthier than wallowing in your own soapy
water and it's cheaper.
Mike P.

Ah, but you can't fall asleep in the shower while reading the screwfix
catalogue can you?
Darren - or is that just me?

You won't be able to turn the pages if you do fall asleep, cos there stuck
together.
Nor can you order when you've drowned!
Mike P.

In article ,
wrote:

I think it's more down to the simple lack of gradient.

Could you solve the gradient problem by lifting the
bath onto blocks, and put skirting panels around it?

--
Tony Williams.

Tony Williams wrote:
In article ,
wrote:

I think it's more down to the simple lack of gradient.

Could you solve the gradient problem by lifting the
bath onto blocks, and put skirting panels around it?

That was suggested right at the beginning of this thread! :-)

--
Chris Green )

wrote in message ...
N. Thornton wrote:

If the old one was as bad, you might have grease in the pipework
making it worse (causetic soda and caution) or a mchanical partial
block (bendy springy thing)

I think it's more down to the simple lack of gradient.

Probably, but it also might be the two together. Slow draining water
is going to deposit grease much more. Might be worth a try anyway.


Finally pumped waste is simple enough, but AFAIK you'd have to either
make the sensor and control circuit yourself, or else just use a
manually operated switch for the pump, preferably a push switch with
built in timer, as used in communal hallways etc.

That could be the way to go, where does one get pumps, the only ones
I've seen are Saniflow ones which are too big for what I want, I want
a 40mm only pump.

Any DIY supplier will sell you a pump. Wickes do them for somewhere
round £30 IIRC. I wouldnt expect it to come with 40mm fittings though.


Regards, NT

N. Thornton wrote:
That could be the way to go, where does one get pumps, the only ones
I've seen are Saniflow ones which are too big for what I want, I want
a 40mm only pump.

Any DIY supplier will sell you a pump. Wickes do them for somewhere
round £30 IIRC. I wouldnt expect it to come with 40mm fittings though.

Well I've hunted using Google etc. and have found nothing that really
seems to be aimed at waste pumping except the Saniflo ones.

--
Chris Green )

wrote in message ...
N. Thornton wrote:
That could be the way to go, where does one get pumps, the only ones
I've seen are Saniflow ones which are too big for what I want, I want
a 40mm only pump.

Any DIY supplier will sell you a pump. Wickes do them for somewhere
round £30 IIRC. I wouldnt expect it to come with 40mm fittings though.

Well I've hunted using Google etc. and have found nothing that really
seems to be aimed at waste pumping except the Saniflo ones.

Central heating pump. Designed to pump with a moderate amount of crap
in the water, which will work fine, as long as you dont feed lots of
little screws down the plughole. Youre pumping grey water, the saniflo
is for brown not grey.

Regards, NT

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
m...
wrote in message
...
N. Thornton wrote:
That could be the way to go, where does one get pumps, the only ones
I've seen are Saniflow ones which are too big for what I want, I
want
a 40mm only pump.

Any DIY supplier will sell you a pump. Wickes do them for somewhere
round £30 IIRC. I wouldnt expect it to come with 40mm fittings though.

Well I've hunted using Google etc. and have found nothing that really
seems to be aimed at waste pumping except the Saniflo ones.

Central heating pump. Designed to pump with a moderate amount of crap
in the water, which will work fine, as long as you dont feed lots of
little screws down the plughole. Youre pumping grey water, the saniflo
is for brown not grey.

Regards, NT

And running dry between baths how long will it last? Or how do you sense to
turn it on?

Andrew Mawson

How about an automatic bilge pump intended for a boat. They come on when
water hits the sensor and continue until free of water. They're low powered
and quiet and often deal with less than pristine water.

Try a few of the online chandlers.

Tony

"Andrew Mawson" wrote in message
...

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
m...
wrote in message
...
N. Thornton wrote:
That could be the way to go, where does one get pumps, the only
ones
I've seen are Saniflow ones which are too big for what I want, I
want
a 40mm only pump.

Any DIY supplier will sell you a pump. Wickes do them for somewhere
round £30 IIRC. I wouldnt expect it to come with 40mm fittings
though.

Well I've hunted using Google etc. and have found nothing that really
seems to be aimed at waste pumping except the Saniflo ones.

Central heating pump. Designed to pump with a moderate amount of crap
in the water, which will work fine, as long as you dont feed lots of
little screws down the plughole. Youre pumping grey water, the saniflo
is for brown not grey.

Regards, NT

And running dry between baths how long will it last? Or how do you sense
to
turn it on?

Andrew Mawson

"Andrew Mawson" wrote in message ...
"N. Thornton" wrote in message
m...
wrote in message

That could be the way to go, where does one get pumps, the only ones
I've seen are Saniflow ones which are too big for what I want, I
want
a 40mm only pump.

Any DIY supplier will sell you a pump. Wickes do them for somewhere
round £30 IIRC. I wouldnt expect it to come with 40mm fittings though.

Well I've hunted using Google etc. and have found nothing that really
seems to be aimed at waste pumping except the Saniflo ones.

Central heating pump. Designed to pump with a moderate amount of crap
in the water, which will work fine, as long as you dont feed lots of
little screws down the plughole. Youre pumping grey water, the saniflo
is for brown not grey.

And running dry between baths how long will it last? Or how do you sense to
turn it on?

Andrew Mawson

Just read the thread and see what was suggested. It would last much
longer than in a CH system since it is running much less. Youre right
to half make the point that its run time shouldnt be too OTT.

Regards, NT

On 11 Dec 2003 11:09:18 GMT, wrote:

N. Thornton wrote:
That could be the way to go, where does one get pumps, the only ones
I've seen are Saniflow ones which are too big for what I want, I want
a 40mm only pump.

Any DIY supplier will sell you a pump. Wickes do them for somewhere
round £30 IIRC. I wouldnt expect it to come with 40mm fittings though.

Well I've hunted using Google etc. and have found nothing that really
seems to be aimed at waste pumping except the Saniflo ones.

Saniflo is a range of equipment, there is one for baths, showers etc.
ISTR it's called Sanichasse, but ICBW. Try a plumbers merchants rather
than a DIY shed who tend to only have the kharzi ones.

--
Niall