In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
There is no doubt that the whole Brexit thing *is* going to cause a
load of upheaval, delay and cost. No one knows how much or for how
long that will last (if not for ever). It may even cost lives (it's
already cost one that I know of) because with any major change there
will be winners and losers.

Do you think the poor who voted out because of high immigration in their
area will end up being winners? If so, could you please explain how?


I saw this article ...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...tons-who-voted
-to-leave-the-eu

.... summarised in that wonderful weekly publication "The Week" (a
round-up of "what the papers say" -- get it -- it's great!).


Yes folks, it's the Guardian, but it's giving a voice to ten people who
voted Leave. I haven't been able to work out why, but I somehow felt a
little bit better after I'd read these brief accounts.

John

In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Like stock markets, these things go up, and they go down. To make any
sort of judgement now, whether 'we told you so' or 'it'll recover in a
few days' is way too premature. Give it five years, or maybe even ten,
then make a judgement on whether it was a good idea to leave. To make
such a judgement now is just plain foolish.

Great. Did those in favour of BEXIT make it clear they'd be happy with 10
years of depression - in the hope the country will recover after that?

--
*I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 2:26:12 PM UTC+1, Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.
I see it is suggested that the pound may fall as low as equality with the
dollar.

Also, all the candidates for the Conservative leadership
(except possibly Gove)
seem to hope to recover exactly the same position with the EU
that we had before the disastrous decision to leave it.
So the entire operation would seem a complete waste of time.

--
Timothy Murphy
gayleard /at/ eircom.net
School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dubli

Hmmmmmm Timothy Murphy

's eem to hope to recover exactly the same position with the EU
' that we had before the disastrous decision to leave it'

We ?

Trinity College Dublin ? Dont remember them having a vote in this.

Not saying you shouldn't have a say in this. Much more than that Aussie **** stirrer.

In article ,
Another John wrote:
Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.


And furthermore ... we won't know if they were "lying"[1] or not for a
few weeks/months yet.

If only it was a few weeks. We can't actually even be out of the EU until
more than 2 years. And then add on any negotiations with them for any
future deal.

--
*When cheese gets its picture taken, what does it say? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thursday, 7 July 2016 15:51:39 UTC+1, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/07/2016 14:26, Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.

Even if they do, that may not matter to many of those who voted leave,
since they may consider its a price worth paying for avoiding other and
possibly more serious pain later.

Yes I can see my foreign friends getting screwed over when we find cheaper immigrants to replace them, but they just don't see it a possiblility

I've a french friend that was a 'chef' at a local gastro pub, he left because he hated it and the long hours but it seems Jamie oliver expects his staff to work 80-120 hour weeks and the French are fighting for a maxium of 48 hours weeks.
If anyoen sloking for a job there's 3 near me two chefs wanated one in a kebab shop kebabsih chain I think, another in a fast food shop wants a 'waitress' and anothe rsimilar food outlet wants a chef too.

Seems to be plenty of jobs going about.

On Thursday, 7 July 2016 16:26:30 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Like stock markets, these things go up, and they go down. To make any
sort of judgement now, whether 'we told you so' or 'it'll recover in a
few days' is way too premature. Give it five years, or maybe even ten,
then make a judgement on whether it was a good idea to leave. To make
such a judgement now is just plain foolish.

Great. Did those in favour of BEXIT make it clear they'd be happy with 10
years of depression - in the hope the country will recover after that?


I thought the lastes word was austerity I wonder what the actual differnce is.

On 07/07/16 15:07, Timothy Murphy wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.

No, time is showing that almost NONE of the forecaats are coming true.

I see it is suggested that the pound may fall as low as equality with the
dollar.

A suggestion is not reality and is not a fact.

At present it has fallen to a 30-year low.
I'm sure when it hits rock bottom you will say,
"That's great. It is exactly what we expected.
Think how good it will be for exports."

Also, all the candidates for the Conservative leadership
(except possibly Gove)
seem to hope to recover exactly the same position with the EU
that we had before the disastrous decision to leave it.

Utter tosh.

Leadsom just said she wants "tariff-free trade with the EU".
The others have all said more or less the same.



We all *want* it. But that doesn't mean we will get it, or that it is a
deal breaker.



--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

On 07/07/16 16:13, Another John wrote:
Yes folks, it's the Guardian, but it's giving a voice to ten
(selected out of several hundred interviewed) people who voted
Leave (to gibe the impressions the Guardian wants you to have).


--
"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

When a true dunce appears in the world you may know him by the sign that
he will quote this by epigram by Swift. Both believing it to be true, and that
it applies particularly to him.

Some true geniuses from around Swift's time.

Isaac Newton. Dunces all in confederacy against him ? Er, nope.

William Shakespeare. Dunces all in confederacy against him ? Er, nope.

Robert Hook. Dunces all in confederacy against him ? Er, nope.

Nicolas Copernicus. Dunces all in confederacy against him ? Er, nope.

Leonardo Da Vinci. Dunces all in confederacy against him ? Er, nope

Oh dear !

It looks like the good Doctor is still hooking in the morons at the end of his line,
even after 300 years


michael adams

....

On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 14:30:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Utter tosh.

So the entire operation would seem a complete waste of time.

Only to one almost brain dead.

Blimey , you're even copying Harrys expressions now,are you going to
marry him when your divorce comes through . This Brexit thing seems to
have brought you together.

G.Harman

On 07/07/16 17:06, wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 14:30:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Utter tosh.

So the entire operation would seem a complete waste of time.

Only to one almost brain dead.

Blimey , you're even copying Harrys expressions now,are you going to
marry him when your divorce comes through . This Brexit thing seems to
have brought you together.

G.Harman

Harry is a ******.

Doesn't belong in UKIP at all. Probably BNP.



--
The biggest threat to humanity comes from socialism, which has utterly
diverted our attention away from what really matters to our existential
survival, to indulging in navel gazing and faux moral investigations
into what the world ought to be, whilst we fail utterly to deal with
what it actually is.

`On Thu, 07 Jul 2016 16:13:01 +0100, Another John
wrote:

In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
There is no doubt that the whole Brexit thing *is* going to cause a
load of upheaval, delay and cost. No one knows how much or for how
long that will last (if not for ever). It may even cost lives (it's
already cost one that I know of) because with any major change there
will be winners and losers.

Do you think the poor who voted out because of high immigration in their
area will end up being winners? If so, could you please explain how?


I saw this article ...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...tons-who-voted
-to-leave-the-eu

... summarised in that wonderful weekly publication "The Week" (a
round-up of "what the papers say" -- get it -- it's great!).


Yes folks, it's the Guardian, but it's giving a voice to ten people who
voted Leave.

Ten very politically motivated people by the looks of it, not
particularly representative of the public at large.

I haven't been able to work out why, but I somehow felt a
little bit better after I'd read these brief accounts.


And I feel further dismayed. I feel that because these all seem
'politically motivated' people and all seem to be *hoping* for the
same things, none of which are likely for any reasons they give and
just seems to be the same old stuff trotted out by most of the
'leavers' we have seen here and elsewhere. ;-(

Hopes don't always turn into reality though do they and rarely do when
there is little evidence to support them.

Cheers, T i m

On Thursday, 7 July 2016 16:58:54 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...

"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift.

When a true dunce appears in the world you may know him by the sign that
he will quote this by epigram by Swift. Both believing it to be true, and that
it applies particularly to him.

Some true geniuses from around Swift's time.

Isaac Newton. Dunces all in confederacy against him ? Er, nope.

William Shakespeare. Dunces all in confederacy against him ? Er, nope.

Robert Hook. Dunces all in confederacy against him ? Er, nope.

Nicolas Copernicus. Dunces all in confederacy against him ? Er, nope.

Leonardo Da Vinci. Dunces all in confederacy against him ? Er, nope

Oh dear !

It looks like the good Doctor is still hooking in the morons at the end of his line,
even after 300 years


michael adams

...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola...us#Controversy

On Thursday, 7 July 2016 17:13:14 UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/07/16 17:06, wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 14:30:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Utter tosh.

So the entire operation would seem a complete waste of time.

Only to one almost brain dead.

Blimey , you're even copying Harrys expressions now,are you going to
marry him when your divorce comes through . This Brexit thing seems to
have brought you together.

G.Harman

Harry is a ******.

Doesn't belong in UKIP at all. Probably BNP.

I have been in UKIP for five years.

On Thursday, 7 July 2016 16:26:30 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Chris Hogg wrote:
Like stock markets, these things go up, and they go down. To make any
sort of judgement now, whether 'we told you so' or 'it'll recover in a
few days' is way too premature. Give it five years, or maybe even ten,
then make a judgement on whether it was a good idea to leave. To make
such a judgement now is just plain foolish.

Great. Did those in favour of BEXIT make it clear they'd be happy with 10
years of depression - in the hope the country will recover after that?

Project fear turns to project hysteria.

On 07/07/2016 14:51, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 July 2016 11:21:44 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , T i m
wrote:
There is no doubt that the whole Brexit thing *is* going to cause
a load of upheaval, delay and cost. No one knows how much or for
how long that will last (if not for ever). It may even cost lives
(it's already cost one that I know of) because with any major
change there will be winners and losers.

Do you think the poor who voted out because of high immigration in
their area will end up being winners? If so, could you please
explain how?

I think they did partly but you seem to think only one type of person
voted to leave. Not all 17 million people are the same.

You won;t understand this until you see what they see. What they see
are the wealth talking about how good immigration is for the
economey.

It pushes up house prices which is good for those renting out
houses. not so good for those renting or wanting to buy. Some workers
are being priced out of the market and are expected to take pay cuts,
while MPs pay increases. Over crowding is getting to be a problem,
maybe you haven't noticed, but at least it's good for the economy
they tell us. Lots of flats and hoses for sale at £350k + for a 1 bed
flat and I don;t see how an economic migrant can afford such a
thing. I clean cars good doesn't sound like a high end CV to me, that
could earn him the 40K+ a year he;d need to get a mortgae.

While some of these things maybe true what does leaving the EU do to
help with any of them?

"harry" wrote in message
...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola...us#Controversy


Those weren't dunces,. Those were Catholic scholars and functionaries
working on behalf of a Church which identified the threat which Copernicus
and later Gallileo, with Jupiter's moons, represented to their claim that the
Bible can satisfactorily account for every feature of the known Universe.


michael adams

On 07/07/2016 14:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/07/16 14:26, Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.

No, time is showing that almost NONE of the forecaats are coming true.

Talk about stupidity.

So far the pound has fallen as predicted.

Immigration has gone up and not down as leave claimed it would.

Mind you we haven't left yet so all the predictions could be true as
most of them were long term predictions and not this will happen tomorrow.

The real question is where will we be in five years time not what has
happened before we have even left.

On 07/07/2016 17:06, wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 14:30:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


Utter tosh.

So the entire operation would seem a complete waste of time.

Only to one almost brain dead.

Blimey , you're even copying Harrys expressions now,are you going to
marry him when your divorce comes through . This Brexit thing seems to
have brought you together.

G.Harman


She is married to harry that's why they hate each other.

On 07/07/2016 15:51, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/07/2016 14:26, Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.

Even if they do, that may not matter to many of those who voted leave,
since they may consider its a price worth paying for avoiding other and
possibly more serious pain later.




There was always the option to leave later if any of those terrible
claims weren't brexit lies.

In article . com,
lid writes
On 07/07/2016 14:51, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 July 2016 11:21:44 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , T i m
wrote:
There is no doubt that the whole Brexit thing *is* going to cause
a load of upheaval, delay and cost. No one knows how much or for
how long that will last (if not for ever). It may even cost lives
(it's already cost one that I know of) because with any major
change there will be winners and losers.

Do you think the poor who voted out because of high immigration in
their area will end up being winners? If so, could you please
explain how?

I think they did partly but you seem to think only one type of person
voted to leave. Not all 17 million people are the same.

You won;t understand this until you see what they see. What they see
are the wealth talking about how good immigration is for the
economey.

It pushes up house prices which is good for those renting out
houses. not so good for those renting or wanting to buy. Some workers
are being priced out of the market and are expected to take pay cuts,
while MPs pay increases. Over crowding is getting to be a problem,
maybe you haven't noticed, but at least it's good for the economy
they tell us. Lots of flats and hoses for sale at £350k + for a 1 bed
flat and I don;t see how an economic migrant can afford such a
thing. I clean cars good doesn't sound like a high end CV to me, that
could earn him the 40K+ a year he;d need to get a mortgae.

While some of these things maybe true what does leaving the EU do to
help with any of them?

It tightens the labour market which pushes up wages, and the slackest
part of that market is currently the low paid.
--
bert

In article , Timothy Murphy
writes
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.

No, time is showing that almost NONE of the forecaats are coming true.

I see it is suggested that the pound may fall as low as equality with the
dollar.

A suggestion is not reality and is not a fact.

At present it has fallen to a 30-year low.
I'm sure when it hits rock bottom you will say,
"That's great. It is exactly what we expected.
Think how good it will be for exports."

Also, all the candidates for the Conservative leadership
(except possibly Gove)
seem to hope to recover exactly the same position with the EU
that we had before the disastrous decision to leave it.

Utter tosh.

Leadsom just said she wants "tariff-free trade with the EU".
The others have all said more or less the same.



We would like tariff free trade with the whole world.
--
bert

In article m,
lid writes
On 07/07/2016 14:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/07/16 14:26, Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.

No, time is showing that almost NONE of the forecaats are coming true.

Talk about stupidity.

So far the pound has fallen as predicted.

Immigration has gone up and not down as leave claimed it would.

Didn't claim it would go down BEFORE we had actually left the EU which
in case you hadn't noticed we haven't done yet.
Mind you we haven't left yet so all the predictions could be true as
most of them were long term predictions and not this will happen
tomorrow.

The real question is where will we be in five years time not what has
happened before we have even left.
So why are you going on about what has happened in the short term?
--
bert

On 07/07/2016 20:33, dennis@home wrote:
On 07/07/2016 15:51, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/07/2016 14:26, Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.

Even if they do, that may not matter to many of those who voted leave,
since they may consider its a price worth paying for avoiding other and
possibly more serious pain later.




There was always the option to leave later if any of those terrible
claims weren't brexit lies.

Can you imagine anyone offering another referendum later had they
managed to get away with maintaining the status quo through this one?
This one was a gamble to win an election, that was supposed to result in
everyone doing as they were told.

The leave campaign did not seem to make much mileage out of what happens
when the Euro folds, or any of the other possible ways the whole edifice
implodes.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 07/07/2016 07:36, harry wrote:
So lets just think about what has happened in the EU since the British people voted to leave the EU....

1) The EU has now stated it will spend ‚¬1 TRILLION on building an EU Armed Forces and
all states must merge their armed forces into an EU army and navy under
the command of France and Germany.
2) The EU has sent us a bill for an extra £34 Billion stating it is to fill a black hole in the budget


The EU needs 150 Billion euros to bail out the Italian banking
system. (!00 times worse than Greek banks).

On Thu, 7 Jul 2016 12:11:58 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

snip

I have been in UKIP for five years.

When you say 'in' is it like when football supporters say things like
'We won the other day' (when they were actually nowhere near the game)
or do you actually have to 'join', pay membership fees, meet up
somewhere every week?

Cheers, T i m

On 07/07/2016 07:41, charles wrote:

have you seen what has happened to the Pound?


have you seen what happened to the share prices of UK
companies that sell around the world and get paid in
every other currency ?.

On 07/07/2016 10:23, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 July 2016 07:40:05 UTC+1, charles wrote:



have you seen what has happened to the Pound?

has someone converted it to Kilograms ;-)


even the official Kilo is shrinking.

On 07/07/2016 20:47, bert wrote:

At present it has fallen to a 30-year low.
I'm sure when it hits rock bottom you will say,
"That's great. It is exactly what we expected.
Think how good it will be for exports."

Its much like saying that global warming must be true because we have
had the hottest day for 30 years. You have to take the average over a
sensible period of time and not just react to the spikes in the data.


--
mailto: news {at} admac {dot] myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Timothy Murphy wrote

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up
with to try to discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.

More lies. The British economy isn't even remotely
like DESTROYED. Or even severely damaged either.

I see it is suggested that the pound may
fall as low as equality with the dollar.

And it remains to be seen if that is any more than
just more utterly mindless hyperventilation. And
even if it does the British economy will do fine
given that that will help exports dramatically.

Sure it would also mean that the cost of petrol etc
would be quite a bit higher, but that isnt going to
destroy the British economy.

Also, all the candidates for the Conservative leadership
(except possibly Gove) seem to hope to recover exactly
the same position with the EU that we had before the
disastrous decision to leave it.

They haven't said anything like that with the free movement
of people and having policy determined by the EU either.

So the entire operation would seem a complete waste of time.

Having fun thrashing that straw man ?

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
John Rumm wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

You expected Remainers to only give positive facts about being
in the EU? FFS, we've been in it for 40 years. If people really
don't know what they are, just where have they been hiding?

That is part of the difficulty - much of the good bits are seldom
spoken about, and people have little conception of what they
are since in 40 years they have become part of the furniture.

And, of course, brainwashed, by so much of the popular meja that
the EU was 'a bad thing' Indeed, I can't think off the top of my head
of anything EU related that wasn't given a 'bad for the UK' spin.

That's the problem with your ear to ear dog ****.
One obvious example of a good thing with the
EU is the freedom of movement of everyone
from kids who want to see more of the world
than just Britain to go anywhere they like in
the EU and work there for as long as they like
and the freedom of those who decide that
that soggy little frigid island has some very
downsides and that a Brit ghetto in Spain etc
is much more to their taste.

What have the Romans ever done for us?

The leavers did try and give positive 'facts' about
leaving. Pretty well all suppositions or downright lies.

Again, many just a list of possible outcomes...

Yes. 'We will spend the 350m on the NHS'. Without even a thought
as to if we would actually have that 350m as a surplus after leaving.

A completely trivial part of what was claimed as a good reason to leave.

So giving what might be the downsides of leaving is called
'project fear' by those who prefer to believe outright lies.

It just demonstrates that the remain camp completely
misread the motivations of the people, and did not
understand what their concerns and frustrations were.

Both sides totally misread the people.

The leavers didn’t, they realised that there were plenty
****ed off enough about the downsides of the EU to
get close to a majority voting to leave the EU. AND they
realised what was driving that with those voters too.

Even Farage who has spent so much effort winding
up the poor on the subject of immigration.

Even sillier than you usually manage. He always realised that that
was a massive issue for them. Yes, plenty of them are rabid mindless
bigots like harry, but that's irrelevant to the fact that Farage had
clearly worked out what mattered to them and their motivations.

The remain campaign was also entirely negative - i.e. if we leave,
this bad thing will happen. Never did they set out to explain what
the actual benefits of being "in" were, what areas of peoples lives
were positively influenced by EU membership and so on. The whole
exercise came over as huge exercise in arrogance which irritated many.

Very true. But those who voted on the basis of giving the establishment a
good kicking are the same ones who will suffer the most by leaving the EU.

Even sillier than you usually manage. **** all of them will suffer at all.
Only really the ag sector which will lose the bulk of their subsidys from
the EU which amount to about half of their total income, and with Britain
out of the EU wont be able to flog what they produce to anyone who
wants it in the EU at the inflated prices that the EU has ensured for what
they produce because the EU is closed shop to the rest of the world on
that stuff.

And that is the truth which was kept from them.

It isnt anything even remotely like 'the truth' and it was never kept from
anyone either.

On 07/07/2016 20:42, bert wrote:
In article . com,
lid writes
On 07/07/2016 14:51, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, 7 July 2016 11:21:44 UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , T i m
wrote:
There is no doubt that the whole Brexit thing *is* going to cause
a load of upheaval, delay and cost. No one knows how much or for
how long that will last (if not for ever). It may even cost lives
(it's already cost one that I know of) because with any major
change there will be winners and losers.

Do you think the poor who voted out because of high immigration in
their area will end up being winners? If so, could you please
explain how?

I think they did partly but you seem to think only one type of person
voted to leave. Not all 17 million people are the same.

You won;t understand this until you see what they see. What they see
are the wealth talking about how good immigration is for the
economey.

It pushes up house prices which is good for those renting out
houses. not so good for those renting or wanting to buy. Some workers
are being priced out of the market and are expected to take pay cuts,
while MPs pay increases. Over crowding is getting to be a problem,
maybe you haven't noticed, but at least it's good for the economy
they tell us. Lots of flats and hoses for sale at £350k + for a 1 bed
flat and I don;t see how an economic migrant can afford such a
thing. I clean cars good doesn't sound like a high end CV to me, that
could earn him the 40K+ a year he;d need to get a mortgae.

While some of these things maybe true what does leaving the EU do to
help with any of them?

It tightens the labour market which pushes up wages, and the slackest
part of that market is currently the low paid.

How does it do that?

All the (potential) leaders have stated it will have no significant
effect on immigration so where does this tightening come from?

I also think some wages may go up, but that will be from inflation as
the price of all our imports goes up due to the weaker pound dollar rate.
Fuel is already up in price and many things will follow.

On 07/07/2016 20:50, bert wrote:
In article m,
lid writes
On 07/07/2016 14:30, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 07/07/16 14:26, Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming
true.

No, time is showing that almost NONE of the forecaats are coming true.

Talk about stupidity.

So far the pound has fallen as predicted.

Immigration has gone up and not down as leave claimed it would.

Didn't claim it would go down BEFORE we had actually left the EU which
in case you hadn't noticed we haven't done yet.
Mind you we haven't left yet so all the predictions could be true as
most of them were long term predictions and not this will happen
tomorrow.

The real question is where will we be in five years time not what has
happened before we have even left.
So why are you going on about what has happened in the short term?

Do you not think the current changes are an indicator of what might
happen if we submit the quit note?

On 07/07/2016 20:59, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/07/2016 20:33, dennis@home wrote:
On 07/07/2016 15:51, John Rumm wrote:
On 07/07/2016 14:26, Timothy Murphy wrote:
John Rumm wrote:

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up with to try to
discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming
true.

Even if they do, that may not matter to many of those who voted leave,
since they may consider its a price worth paying for avoiding other and
possibly more serious pain later.




There was always the option to leave later if any of those terrible
claims weren't brexit lies.

Can you imagine anyone offering another referendum later had they
managed to get away with maintaining the status quo through this one?
This one was a gamble to win an election, that was supposed to result in
everyone doing as they were told.

The leave campaign did not seem to make much mileage out of what happens
when the Euro folds, or any of the other possible ways the whole edifice
implodes.



They lied about immigration which they knew would swing the vote in many
cases.
UKIP members like harry posted lies about all sorts of things the EU
"was" going to do. Much of which was pulled of web sites so someone was
trying to make mileage out of it.

whisky-dave wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
T i m wrote

There is no doubt that the whole Brexit thing *is* going
to cause a load of upheaval, delay and cost. No one knows
how much or for how long that will last (if not for ever). It may
even cost lives (it's already cost one that I know of) because
with any major change there will be winners and losers.

Do you think the poor who voted out because of high immigration in their
area will end up being winners? If so, could you please explain how?

I think they did partly but you seem to think only one type of
person voted to leave. Not all 17 million people are the same.

And nothing even remotely like half the population of Britain are
poor either so it is flagrantly dishonest to claim that its only the
poor that voted to leave. And its well known that the poor are
much less likely to bother to register and vote than anyone else
too and are so feckless that they can't even manage to register
most of them. That's why they are poor, they are that feckless,
can't even work out how to get qualified for a decent job or even
take advantage of the free education system to do that either.

You won;t understand this until you see what they see.
What they see are the wealth talking about
how good immigration is for the economey.

It pushes up house prices which is good for those renting out houses.
not so good for those renting or wanting to buy.
Some workers are being priced out of the
market and are expected to take pay cuts,

There is **** all of that that is the result of immigration.

Quite a few small business retail operations can't compete
with the best of the immigrants tho and go broke.

while MPs pay increases.

Over crowding is getting to be a problem,

Not for the bulk of those who voted to leave.

maybe you haven't noticed, but at least
it's good for the economy they tell us.

Lots of flats and hoses for sale at £350k + for a 1 bed flat and
I don;t see how an economic migrant can afford such a thing.

They can't, they rent instead.

I clean cars good doesn't sound like a high end CV to me, that
could earn him the 40K+ a year he;d need to get a mortgae.

Which might be why **** all car cleaners are buying the place they live in.

Of course they get most of their info from the media so you'd have to
prove
to them the media was lying and that there isn't a housing shortage and
the
healthcare system is better now than it was, and life is better now than
it was.

Life clearly is a lot better for everyone than it was,
even those whose entire income is benefits.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Timothy Murphy wrote
John Rumm wrote

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up
with to try to discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.
I see it is suggested that the pound may fall as low as equality with the
dollar.

Also, all the candidates for the Conservative leadership
(except possibly Gove) seem to hope to recover exactly
the same position with the EU that we had before the
disastrous decision to leave it.

Quite. We joined a Europe free trade area for very good reasons

Yes.

- and those reasons if anything are more valid today.

Nope. Free trade has become much more of a fashion/fad
now world wide and we have also seen bit cuts in the level
of dutys and tariffs when there isnt free trade too.

Any subsequent consequences of the EU merely being extremely petty
regulations or whatever. That in any case can't (or won't) be reversed.

Even sillier than you usually manage with the most important
stuff like state subsidys for infrastructure when that makes sense
and other stuff like shutting down perfectly viable coal fire power
generation that is still the most viable way to generate power
apart from nukes.

So the entire operation would seem a complete waste of time.

Rather more than that. With a right wing government
in charge, the poor will suffer even more relatively.

Even sillier than you usually manage. There is no
reason why Britain leaving the EU should make it
any more likely that there will be a right wing govt.

The reason there isnt going to be another Labour
govt any time soon is because Blair and Brown so
comprehensively ****ed off most Labour voters
that they were actually stupid enough to end up
with that fool Corbyn driving the Labour bus and
that has ensured that Labour wont be back in
govt until they get rid of Corbyn.

The same poor who swung the vote to leave.

Even sillier than you usually manage. The poor didn’t swing
the vote to leave any more than any other group did. They
are in fact by far the least likely group to bother to vote and
they are about the least fickle with their votes even when they
do manage to drag themselves away from the pub to vote.

Timothy Murphy wrote
The Natural Philosopher wrote

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up
with to try to discredit the facts they had no answer to.

Unfortunately, time is showing that the worst forecasts are coming true.

No, time is showing that almost NONE of the forecaats are coming true.

I see it is suggested that the pound may fall as low as equality with
the dollar.

A suggestion is not reality and is not a fact.

He's right, for once.

At present it has fallen to a 30-year low.

Hardly the end of civilisation as we know it.

I'm sure when it hits rock bottom you will say,
"That's great. It is exactly what we expected.
Think how good it will be for exports."

Leadsom has just said just that. And she's right too.

Also, all the candidates for the Conservative leadership
(except possibly Gove) seem to hope to recover exactly
the same position with the EU that we had before the
disastrous decision to leave it.

Utter tosh.

Leadsom just said she wants "tariff-free trade with the EU".

But she is very unlikely to have any say on anything at all.

The others have all said more or less the same.

No one who matters politically. May certainly hasn't and
even Leadsom hasn't said that she wants it even if the EU
is completely intransigent on the 4 freedoms to get that.

"Another John" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article ,
T i m wrote:
There is no doubt that the whole Brexit thing *is* going to cause a
load of upheaval, delay and cost. No one knows how much or for how
long that will last (if not for ever). It may even cost lives (it's
already cost one that I know of) because with any major change there
will be winners and losers.

Do you think the poor who voted out because of high immigration in their
area will end up being winners? If so, could you please explain how?


I saw this article ...

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...tons-who-voted
-to-leave-the-eu

... summarised in that wonderful weekly publication "The Week" (a
round-up of "what the papers say" -- get it -- it's great!).


Yes folks, it's the Guardian, but it's giving a voice to ten people who
voted Leave.

I haven't been able to work out why, but I somehow
felt a little bit better after I'd read these brief accounts.

Because you feel the same was about those issues as they do.

Just how representative those 10 are of
most of the leave voters is impossible to say.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Chris Hogg wrote

Like stock markets, these things go up, and they go down. To make
any sort of judgement now, whether 'we told you so' or 'it'll recover
in a few days' is way too premature. Give it five years, or maybe even
ten, then make a judgement on whether it was a good idea to leave.
To make such a judgement now is just plain foolish.

Great. Did those in favour of BEXIT make it clear
they'd be happy with 10 years of depression

More lies and FUD. If the completely implosion of much
of the world financial system in 2008 didn’t do that to
Britain, leaving the EU certainly wont, Pinocchio.

- in the hope the country will recover after that?

Even more flagrantly dishonest than you usually manage.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Another John wrote

Project Fear was a name the Leave campaigners came up
with to try to discredit the facts they had no answer to.

And furthermore ... we won't know if they were
"lying"[1] or not for a few weeks/months yet.

If only it was a few weeks. We can't actually
even be out of the EU until more than 2 years.

Another bare faced lie. Britain is free to repeal the original
legislation that got it into the EEC in the first place and leave
tomorrow if it wants to.

Article 50 is JUST about how the leaving country
negotiates with the EU on the detail of relations
between the country that is leaving and the EU,
it does NOT require that that happens before the
country can leave and in fact the first para says
very unambiguously indeed that the leaving
country is free to use it own constitutional
procedures any time it likes. Not that the
Treaty gets any say on that, its true anyway.

And then add on any negotiations
with them for any future deal.

You've lied about that too, that’s what the negotiations are about.