This is probably a daft question, as I'm not terribly good at carpentry!

I want to make a small square window casement 400 x 400. My carpentry
skills are just about up to cutting the wood square and the right
length. I can even rout it to make a space for puttying in the glass.

Where I fall down is the skills to make joints at the four corners. Are
there any fitments I can just drill in to join the wood at the corners?
They would need to be fairly sturdy, as this is an opening casement.

In article ,
GB wrote:
Where I fall down is the skills to make joints at the four corners. Are
there any fitments I can just drill in to join the wood at the corners?
They would need to be fairly sturdy, as this is an opening casement.

You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

--
*I started out with nothing... and I still have most of it.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
GB wrote:
Where I fall down is the skills to make joints at the four corners. Are
there any fitments I can just drill in to join the wood at the corners?
They would need to be fairly sturdy, as this is an opening casement.

You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

Wooden dowels?

Halving joint is pretty simple.


--
Tim Lamb

On 17/05/2016 14:51, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
GB wrote:
Where I fall down is the skills to make joints at the four corners. Are
there any fitments I can just drill in to join the wood at the corners?
They would need to be fairly sturdy, as this is an opening casement.

You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

Wooden dowels?

Halving joint is pretty simple.


Any screws would inevitably be into the end grain, though. I thought
there might be special end-grain fixings, but I can't find any.

On 17/05/2016 15:24, GB wrote:
On 17/05/2016 14:51, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
GB wrote:
Where I fall down is the skills to make joints at the four corners. Are
there any fitments I can just drill in to join the wood at the corners?
They would need to be fairly sturdy, as this is an opening casement.

You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

Wooden dowels?

Halving joint is pretty simple.


Any screws would inevitably be into the end grain, though. I thought
there might be special end-grain fixings, but I can't find any.

Not with a halving joint - screws would be strong there.

On Tuesday, 17 May 2016 15:24:58 UTC+1, GB wrote:
On 17/05/2016 14:51, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
GB wrote:
Where I fall down is the skills to make joints at the four corners. Are
there any fitments I can just drill in to join the wood at the corners?
They would need to be fairly sturdy, as this is an opening casement.

You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

Wooden dowels?

Halving joint is pretty simple.


Any screws would inevitably be into the end grain, though. I thought
there might be special end-grain fixings, but I can't find any.

Just make them long & be sure to pilot hole them. You don't need superstrong for a little window.


NT

In article ,
GB wrote:
You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

Wooden dowels?

Halving joint is pretty simple.


Any screws would inevitably be into the end grain, though. I thought
there might be special end-grain fixings, but I can't find any.

Can be pretty successful if you use the correct screws and pilot holes, in
conjunction with a decent glue. Not saying by any means it's the strongest
joint, but probably OK for a window frame that isn't load bearing.

--
*Elephants are the only mammals that can't jump *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/05/2016 16:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
GB wrote:
You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

Wooden dowels?

Halving joint is pretty simple.


Any screws would inevitably be into the end grain, though. I thought
there might be special end-grain fixings, but I can't find any.

Can be pretty successful if you use the correct screws and pilot holes, in
conjunction with a decent glue. Not saying by any means it's the strongest
joint, but probably OK for a window frame that isn't load bearing.


I'll have a go. I don't think my carpentry is up to even a halving joint.

The original plan was to get this done by a joinery shop. I have phoned
five or six, and only one answered the phone. He wanted £115 + VAT,
which seemed like quite a lot to me.

On 17/05/2016 19:08, GB wrote:
On 17/05/2016 16:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
GB wrote:
You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints
date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

Wooden dowels?

Halving joint is pretty simple.


Any screws would inevitably be into the end grain, though. I thought
there might be special end-grain fixings, but I can't find any.

Can be pretty successful if you use the correct screws and pilot
holes, in
conjunction with a decent glue. Not saying by any means it's the
strongest
joint, but probably OK for a window frame that isn't load bearing.


I'll have a go. I don't think my carpentry is up to even a halving joint.

The original plan was to get this done by a joinery shop. I have phoned
five or six, and only one answered the phone. He wanted £115 + VAT,
which seemed like quite a lot to me.



Is it an outside window which will be subject to 'weather'?

The problem you'll have is that unless the joints are really tight,
water will get in and start rotting the frame from the corners. If you
get it done by a joinery, you'll get tight-fitting machine-cut mortise
and tenon joints, with far less scope for water ingress.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Tue, 17 May 2016 19:08:46 +0100, GB
wrote:

On 17/05/2016 16:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
GB wrote:
You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

Wooden dowels?

Halving joint is pretty simple.


Any screws would inevitably be into the end grain, though. I thought
there might be special end-grain fixings, but I can't find any.

Can be pretty successful if you use the correct screws and pilot holes, in
conjunction with a decent glue. Not saying by any means it's the strongest
joint, but probably OK for a window frame that isn't load bearing.


I'll have a go. I don't think my carpentry is up to even a halving joint.

The original plan was to get this done by a joinery shop. I have phoned
five or six, and only one answered the phone. He wanted £115 + VAT,
which seemed like quite a lot to me.

Another way might be to make a laminated frame with alternating
lengths as you go though the layers (minimum of two to give you easy
halving joints).

That way only have to cut the lengths right and reasonably square and
then either glue (external quality PVA is probably the cleanest or
your preferred glue) and clamp, or clamp dry, drill and screw and then
unscrew, glue and re-screw. It might need weighting on a flat surface
while the glue goes off (and where the screwed version is easier).

So, say you wanted a frame that was 90mm thick and double glazed you
could go for some 30 x 70 for the inner layer (if externally glazed)
then 30 x 60 for the next two, to give you room for the bead
(overlapping in opposite directions on the corners, effectively making
a 'bridal' or 'open tenon' joint).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodwo...iddleJoint.svg

Cheers, T i m

On 5/17/2016 2:51 PM, Tim Lamb wrote:
In message , "Dave Plowman (News)"
writes
In article ,
GB wrote:
Where I fall down is the skills to make joints at the four corners. Are
there any fitments I can just drill in to join the wood at the corners?
They would need to be fairly sturdy, as this is an opening casement.

You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

Wooden dowels?

Halving joint is pretty simple.


+ 1 for simple cross halving, screwed and glued. Especially if the
frames are reasonably wide. The glass will add a lot of stiffness
against a square frame going diamond shaped.

Rather than try to rout a slot for the glass, it is easier to rout or
plane a rebate and retain the glass with a bead. If the glass is bedded
in putty, the final assembly will be strong in shear.

GB wrote:
On 17/05/2016 16:53, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
GB wrote:
You'd likely get away with simply glueing and screwing. Most joints date
back to before either. Not to say they aren't better.

Wooden dowels?

Halving joint is pretty simple.


Any screws would inevitably be into the end grain, though. I thought
there might be special end-grain fixings, but I can't find any.

Can be pretty successful if you use the correct screws and pilot holes, in
conjunction with a decent glue. Not saying by any means it's the strongest
joint, but probably OK for a window frame that isn't load bearing.


I'll have a go. I don't think my carpentry is up to even a halving joint.

The original plan was to get this done by a joinery shop. I have phoned
five or six, and only one answered the phone. He wanted £115 + VAT,
which seemed like quite a lot to me.




Making a good mortise and tenon joint is very satisfying. I'd use this as a
great excuse to develop a new skill. After three or four frames you'll
probably get one that's "good enough". ;-)

Tim

--
Trolls and troll feeders go in my killfile

GB wrote

This is probably a daft question, as I'm not terribly good at carpentry!

Then it makes no sense to be making a window.

Makes a lot more sense to buy one and fit it.

I want to make a small square window casement 400 x 400. My carpentry
skills are just about up to cutting the wood square and the right length.
I can even rout it to make a space for puttying in the glass.

Where I fall down is the skills to make joints at the four corners.

And so it makes more sense to just buy one.

That's what the builders do.

Are there any fitments I can just drill in to join the wood at the
corners?

Makes not sense to have wooden windows.

They would need to be fairly sturdy, as this is an opening casement.

So it makes sense to buy one.