"Capitol" wrote in message
o.uk...
pamela wrote:
On 15:32 12 Apr 2016, Andrew wrote:


On 11/04/2016 21:55, pamela wrote:


Maybe Andrew has been impressed by all the shiny lab equipment
with foreign badges and curses the UK for not making such
stuff. Why? Let's buy the best in its class from wherever it's
made.


Buying best in class isn't the issue. There are no British
multi-channel analysers (AFAIK). Back in 1974 the chemical
pathology dept at Barts did have an oddball UK multichannel
analyser. It looked like someone had invented and built it in a
shed (and probably did), and it was hated by the technicians
/MLSO's and didn't last long. The standard kit in most (All)
Chem Path labs was a technicon multi-channel analyser using
peristaltic pumps, special tubing to control the flow and loads
and loads of curly glassware and heating baths to do the
reactions and analogue amplifiers and optical stuff to do the
measuring.

Haematology labs used Coulter counters, type 'S' in the larger
labs giving 7 parameters, that were bonked out onto multi-part
request forms. Larger labs like Barts also used a Technicon
platelet counter. In 1981 the Coulter Counter 'S' Plus also did
platelet counts as well as the 7 other parameters. Because of
the patents, a Coulter counter was a defacto bit of kit for a
haematology lab. There was simply nothing else worth
considering. Beckman-Coulter are now one company and the latest
blood analyser does over a dozen parameters in one go and almost
makes it unnecessary to look at a blood film down a microscope
(AFAIK).

Plenty of Beckman kit in Chem path labs too, plus massive
refridgerated blood pack centrifuges in the Blood bank.

All of it American, though possibly manufactured in Ireland and
the UK.

All blood taking sets were/are Baxter/Fenwal, another USA
company (but made in East Anglia somewhere).

The way multi-channel chemical pathology and haematology tests
are done has now changed out of all recognition, in the same way
that machines for DNA typing that cost £XXX hundreds of
thousands 15 years ago now cost a few thousand and give a result
in hours. But sadly none of it British, even if the original
technological development was done here.

We used to have lot of peripheral stuff, but no longer :-

Digico computers (BR London Bridge signalling and St Richards
Hosp) Gone Control Technology CTL MOd -1 (The London Hosp chem
path) Gone Redifon Computers, Crawley - Gone
Redifon Flight Simulation, Crawley - Gone
Rediffusion itself - Gone
Philips Medical (CT Scanners) Crawley - Gone
Denley scientific equipt Billingshurst - Gone
Elliot Automation - Gone
Lyons Electronic Office - Gone
English Electric - Gone
ICL - Gone
Ferranti Computers - Gone
GEC - Gone
Plessey - Gone

I wish I could say I found your point about the Coulter Counter
'S' Plus platelet counter and its 7 other parameters to be
persuasive but instead I found it rather strange.

I don't know why you are so concerned with buying British lab
equipment if there are perfectly good alternatives from other
countries. I wonder if you make such points when talking about
what equipment to order with your bosses. I suspect they would
take a dim view if you told them you wanted to order a British
machine when there was a better foreign one for the same price or
less.

I hope you take this the right way but you could stick some union
jack labels over the logos of your foreign lab equipment if they
trouble you so much. You can then observe their faux Britishness
and save yourself unnecessary stress. :-) Of course, I'm joking!

I've not heard of anyone get so wound up as you about the country
of origin of the equipment they use. What's next. Are you going
to get upset about the PCs in your office because they're not
invented, designed or manufactured here? I bet there's all sorts
of highly rated automotive diagnostic equipment which are
perfectly fine despite not being made here. And other examples
too.

America used to make all the motherboards in the world. Now it
makes none. So what?

There was a book by a Harvard Business School academic whose theme
was that over time industries move between countries according to
the native skill set and that this was a natural progression and
to be welcomed because it allowed a nation to focus on what it did
best, although I suspect you may disagree.


Your point is well made. Production moved successfully offshore
never returns to the country of origin and automation then further reduces
the production costs. However some low levels of production may be
retained in the country of origin in order to preserve the skills.

But are the skills of any real value if manufacturing has left ?

"Nightjar cpb.me.uk" "insert my surname here wrote in message
...
On 12/04/2016 11:25, Rod Speed wrote:


"Nightjar cpb.me.uk" "insert my surname here wrote in message
...
On 12/04/2016 00:00, Rod Speed wrote:
...
And in our case, not the NHS, you get a band on your wrist that
ensures that they know who you are even when you are unconscious.

The NHS usually puts one band on each wrist, in case one falls off.

Ours can't fall off, they are quite thin but tough plastic
and have to be cut to get them off when you have left...

Same here, but my partner has very small hands and has had one slip off
over hers.

Can't happen with ours, that doesn’t happen even with little kids.

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 22:39 12 Apr 2016, Rod Speed wrote:
snip
No one had debated if bacteria caused stomach ulcers because the
assumption had been that no bacteria could ever live there. It
had long been held that the contents of the stomach were far too
acidic for bacteria to survive. Consequently it was a real
surprise that bacteria, such as h.pylori, could be found there at
all and, from that, it was a step to find h.pylori was implicated
in ulcers. Although even that is still debated by some to this
day.

Trivially proven by ingesting the bacteria that was claimed to
be the problem and seeing it produce ulcers.

All great insights are simple when looking back on them but it
can't have been all that simple at the time if they got a nobel
prize for their discovery. As an example, I think the idea that
nitric oxide is a cellular signalling compound in the human body
is simple enough but it took some major insights to discover that.
Similarly, the special theory of relativity is straightforward
enough to understand by reading up on it on a long train journey
but it took Einstein to have the insight to discover it.

That was another nobel prize but it nearly didn't happen.

Never mind, pamela. At least he hasn't flushed your **** where it belongs,
yet.

michael adams wrote
Rod Speed wrote

However some inventions seem to wait for ever.

Can't think of any important one that has.

Here's one

https://fetch.co.uk/chuckit-sport-18...FbEy0wodcX0C2w

Ball launchers for when taking the dog to the park. One piece
plastic mouding with added bits must cost about 50p to make.

That didn’t wait forever and isnt an important one either.

Probably can't be patented

Not now, but it certainly could have been initially.

but its surprising nobody thought of them earlier.

They did. The problem isnt the invention, its turning an invention
into a viable commercial product that took that long.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
michael adams wrote
Rod Speed wrote

However some inventions seem to wait for ever.

Can't think of any important one that has.

Here's one

https://fetch.co.uk/chuckit-sport-18...FbEy0wodcX0C2w

Ball launchers for when taking the dog to the park. One piece
plastic mouding with added bits must cost about 50p to make.

That didn’t wait forever and isnt an important one either.

Probably can't be patented

Not now, but it certainly could have been initially.

It's only a plasic slingshot. There's nothing to patent.


but its surprising nobody thought of them earlier.

They did. The problem isnt the invention, its turning an invention
into a viable commercial product that took that long.

Hardly. You could knock up prototypes in glassfibre for next
to nothing and almost any dog would happily demonstrate what a
good idea they are, on film.

I've not been studying the matter but I've only recently noticed
them in the last year or two. I'm sure they've been not
round for that long.

To make them in quantity including the tooling they'd cost less
than a washing up bowl.


michael adams

....

"pamela" wrote in message
...

Hey! Steady on, old bean.


bm gets jealous if anyone talks to Wodney.

Basically he's obsessed, and posts of little else.


michael adams

....

"michael adams" wrote in message
o.uk...

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
michael adams wrote
Rod Speed wrote

However some inventions seem to wait for ever.

Can't think of any important one that has.

Here's one

https://fetch.co.uk/chuckit-sport-18...FbEy0wodcX0C2w

Ball launchers for when taking the dog to the park. One piece
plastic mouding with added bits must cost about 50p to make.

That didn’t wait forever and isnt an important one either.

Probably can't be patented

Not now, but it certainly could have been initially.

It's only a plasic slingshot. There's nothing to patent.

Wrong, as always.

but its surprising nobody thought of them earlier.

They did. The problem isnt the invention, its turning an invention
into a viable commercial product that took that long.

Hardly.

Fraid so.

You could knock up prototypes in glassfibre for next to nothing

Thanks for that completely superfluous proof that you have never done it.

and almost any dog would happily demonstrate what a good idea they are, on
film.

Separate matter entirely to what it takes to get to that
stage with a product fit for mass market manufacturing.

I've not been studying the matter but I've only recently noticed them in
the last year or two. I'm sure they've been not round for that long.

Irrelevant to how difficult it is to get tho that result.

To make them in quantity including the tooling they'd cost less than a
washing up bowl.

Irrelevant.

On Monday, 11 April 2016 19:00:46 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"pamela" wrote in message
...

In my mind these failed NHS patient records projects have blurred
into one another although I recall one was written off to the tune
of £10bn a few years ago.


The reason many such projects fail IMO is simply because when
pitching to govt departments, their promoters grossly overstate
the potential enthusiasm of end users for their system. Basically
people are conservative and resistant to change and will frustrate
it at every opportunity. Never mind sabotaging it purely by
accident.

The politicians and decision makers don't want to contradict
them on what they assume are technical matters, rather than total
bull****, for fear of making themselves look stupid; which is
the basis on which all sorts of fortunes, not just in IT
but in consultancy and outsourcing generally, have been
based.


michael adams

...

The reason they fail is the designers of the system and the users are on totally different wavelengths.
Most fault is with the designers who make assumptions that don't hold water in the NHS which has unique requirements.

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 23:06:44 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
However some inventions seem to wait for ever.

Can't think of any important one that has.

Here's one


https://fetch.co.uk/chuckit-sport-18...FbEy0wodcX0C2w

Ball launchers for when taking the dog to the park. One piece
plastic mouding with added bits must cost about 50p to make.

Probably can't be patented but its surprising nobody
thought of them earlier.


michael adams

...







Drivel.
That was invented over 2000 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower.

En el artículo , pamela
escribió:

Hey! Steady on, old bean.

You could show some consideration for others and snip your quotes, if
you wouldn't mind.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

pamela wrote:
On 06:40 13 Apr 2016, harry wrote:


On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 23:06:44 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:

"Rod wrote in message
...


However some inventions seem to wait for ever.

Can't think of any important one that has.

Here's one


https://fetch.co.uk/chuckit-sport-18-ball-launcher-
medium-46cm-207758011?gclid=CJ_FgqKNiswCFbEy0wodcX0C2w

Ball launchers for when taking the dog to the park. One piece
plastic mouding with added bits must cost about 50p to make.

Probably can't be patented but its surprising nobody
thought of them earlier.


michael adams

...


Drivel.
That was invented over 2000 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower.


Isn't the ball launcher different to a spear-thrower in that it
significantly lengthens the radius of the action to throw the ball
giving a much faster launch speed?

That ball launcher is more like the type of sling David used
against Goliath.


The sprung ones using a tennis ball are easier to use IMO.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 23:06:44 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:

Ball launchers for when taking the dog to the park. One piece
plastic mouding with added bits must cost about 50p to make.

Probably can't be patented but its surprising nobody
thought of them earlier.


michael adams


Drivel.
That was invented over 2000 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower.

You're rather missing the point. Nobody disputes that
devices based on similar principles go back to antiquity.

What's surprising is that up until recently nobody had
thought of adapting those principles into a simple,
plastic, ball throwing device for dogs.

Which is why, as I say, they're probably not patentable.

You'd probably see loads of them in your local park.
All sorts of people many of might have not managed
to limply throw a ball more than 20 yards in years,
if at all, now sending bonzo haring off at top speed in
all directions.


michael adams

....

On 13/04/2016 09:58, michael adams wrote:
"harry" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 23:06:44 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:

Ball launchers for when taking the dog to the park. One piece
plastic mouding with added bits must cost about 50p to make.

Probably can't be patented but its surprising nobody
thought of them earlier.


michael adams


Drivel.
That was invented over 2000 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower.

You're rather missing the point. Nobody disputes that
devices based on similar principles go back to antiquity.

What's surprising is that up until recently nobody had
thought of adapting those principles into a simple,
plastic, ball throwing device for dogs.

Which is why, as I say, they're probably not patentable.

You'd probably see loads of them in your local park.
All sorts of people many of might have not managed
to limply throw a ball more than 20 yards in years,
if at all, now sending bonzo haring off at top speed in
all directions.


michael adams

...




without getting their hands dirty

pamela wrote
Rod Speed wrote
pamela wrote

No one had debated if bacteria caused stomach ulcers because
the assumption had been that no bacteria could ever live there.

No one ever assumed anything of the sort. In fact it
was well known that bacteria could and did live there.

It had long been held that the contents of the
stomach were far too acidic for bacteria to survive.

Bull****.

Consequently it was a real surprise that bacteria,
such as h.pylori, could be found there at all

No it was not. That was well known for a long time.

I see we don't share the same understanding of what happened.
I admit I don't hold a monoploy on the truth but Wikipedia says
something very similar to what I wrote:

"At the time, the conventional thinking was that no bacterium
could live in the acid environment of the human stomach."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori

In fact what that actually says is

It was identified in 1982 by Australian scientists Barry Marshall
and Robin Warren, who found that it was present in a person
with chronic gastritis and gastric ulcers, conditions not previously
believed to have a microbial cause.

Which is nothing even remotely like what you wrote.

And
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora
says the exact opposite of what you wrote.

and, from that, it was a step to find
h.pylori was implicated in ulcers.

That utterly mangles what actually happened.

What did happen?

That wikipedia article is accurate.

If I'm mistaken then I would be interested
to hear the correct verson of events.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_...e_and_research

Although even that is still debated by some to this day.

Sure, its certainly possible that not all ulcers are due to
h.pylori and it also doesn't explain why plenty who do
have h.pylori in their stomachs don't get ulcers

In fact 80% of humans do have h.pylori in their guts.

and the obvious flow on from the finding that h.pylori
is the cause of most ulcers is that it should be possible
to give everyone a decent dose of the appropriate
antibiotics and ensure that no one ever gets an ulcer
again. In practice its more complicated than that.

Trivially proven by ingesting the bacteria that was claimed
to be the problem and seeing it produce ulcers.

All great insights are simple when looking back on them

That's not true either. Evolution isnt, particularly with
how something as complicated as the eye developed.

Evolution isn't an insight,

Corse its an insight into how life came about.

so I'm not sure I follow why it's a relevant
counter example to what I said.

but it can't have been all that simple at the
time if they got a nobel prize for their discovery.

That's not how you get a nobel prize.

True enough but that's not what I said.

As an example, I think the idea that nitric oxide is a cellular
signalling compound in the human body is simple enough
but it took some major insights to discover that.

Similarly, the special theory of relativity is straightforward
enough to understand by reading up on it on a long train
journey but it took Einstein to have the insight to discover it.

But plenty of other equally revolutionary insights are nowhere
near as easy to understand even when they have been established.

I would think a retrospective view of what a discovery entails
is always easier to understand than it is for a researcher at the
time for who the understanding doesn't yet exist.

Sure that is nothing like your original.

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 06:40 13 Apr 2016, harry wrote:

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 23:06:44 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...


However some inventions seem to wait for ever.

Can't think of any important one that has.

Here's one


https://fetch.co.uk/chuckit-sport-18-ball-launcher-
medium-46cm-207758011?gclid=CJ_FgqKNiswCFbEy0wodcX0C2w

Ball launchers for when taking the dog to the park. One piece
plastic mouding with added bits must cost about 50p to make.

Probably can't be patented but its surprising nobody
thought of them earlier.


michael adams

...


Drivel.
That was invented over 2000 years ago.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spear-thrower.


Isn't the ball launcher different to a spear-thrower in that it
significantly lengthens the radius of the action to throw the ball
giving a much faster launch speed?

That ball launcher is more like the type of sling David used
against Goliath.

Yep.

On 12/04/2016 16:15, Capitol wrote:
Andrew wrote:
On 11/04/2016 21:55, pamela wrote:

Beckman-Coulter are now one company and the latest blood analyser does
over a dozen parameters in one go and almost makes it unnecessary to
look at a blood film down a microscope (AFAIK).

Cancer patients are still diagnosed manually from slides in
many cases. The blood tests give you an indication of something amiss,
but not enough detail to confirm.

Histological examination of tissue cells is not quite 'routine
pathology' and can be highly subjective (and therefore error prone).

All the software techniques for examining a blood film and recognising
what is there has been available for years. The LOndon Hosp haematology
dept had a machine in the 1970's that was a massively modified Data
General mini with loads of additional circuit boards to mechanically
drive the microscope and identify the cells using optical and analogue
amplifiers.

The very fact that no company seems to have cracked the definitive way
of automating the discrimination of normal vs abnormal *tissue* cells
just reflects how difficult it is. And before you can even look at the
slide, there is a considerable amount of careful preparation work, much
of it totally manual, like using a microtome.

On 12/04/2016 16:57, pamela wrote:


I don't know why you are so concerned with buying British lab
equipment if there are perfectly good alternatives from other
countries. I wonder if you make such points when talking about

I never made that claim. My original statement was that companies like
Coulter and Beckman (And Hewlett Packard, Digital, IBM, ...) exist
because they are private companies supplying a massive local USA market
that is driven by profit, unlike our NHS. Coulter started in 1946 and
Beckman Coulter have now sold 275,000 analysers to 7 continents. Without
this US technology the NHS would not be able to function.
even if Coulter had never existed, you can bet that every UK pathology
lab would be full of German, Swiss, Japanese or Swedish analysers.

Meanwhile on this side of the pond, many of the British companies I
mentioned above only existed because socialist grants kept them alive.
The NRDC were behind Digico, which itself had links back to Elliot, the
founder of Digico then had something to do with the Inmos transputer.
Where are these companies today ?.The only British success story is ARM,
but that was never tainted by socialism (apart from the BBCs involvement).

On 12/04/2016 17:15, lid wrote:
In message , Andrew
writes

Buying best in class isn't the issue. There are no British
multi-channel analysers (AFAIK). Back in 1974 the chemical pathology
dept at Barts did have an oddball UK multichannel analyser. It looked
like someone had invented and built it in a shed (and probably did),
and it was hated by the technicians /MLSO's and didn't last long.

Vickers M300, developed by Clifford Riley at Brighton. Ahead of its time
-- it implemented a degree of positive sample ID on the analyser and
printed the results out on sticky labels that could go straight onto the
request/report forms. All controlled by a PDP8. Unfortunately, it wasn't
a discretionary analyser, running the battery of a dozen or so tests on
all samples.


Yes that sounds familiar, but the the Barts Chem Path lab also had a pdp
11/34 that produced the ward reports somehow, and the latter
cost £60,000 in 1972 !. It had 16K words of core, a 2.5 Mbyte fixed
head disk and a removable 2.5 Mbyte pack.

Unlike a Technicon SMA(C) which split the incoming sample into multiple
channels, I seem to remember the plasma or serum samples travelling
around a conveyor on the M300, a bit like a sushi bar, and each
chemistry station took a dip and did what was necessary, hence the need
for a pdp/8 to make it all work together. I seem to remember that
mixing and matching appropriate chemistry 'stations' was its selling
point, So in that respect it must have been more like a modern discrete
analyser, but being an ex-Haematology FIMLS/techician that's outside my
knowledge.

On 12/04/2016 15:18, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , S Viemeister
escribió:

Having also experienced both systems, I agree with you.

When I fell ill in the States some years ago, I elected to jump on a
plane rather than face the horrors of the US medical system, even though
I had insurance.

Taxi from the airport to my local A&E and I was admitted and receiving
treatment within 30 minutes.


Not now I'm afraid. If you were well enough to get there by taxi, you
would then have to wait for hours and hours in many parts of the UK.

On 12/04/2016 23:00, michael adams wrote:

Especially if it turns out you're supposed to be a cocker spaniel
and your name is supposed to be Rover.



If you were a rover then you probably didn't have any paint under the
doors, or were actually a cat (There were reports of dead cats being
sewn inside the seats of Rover 75's destined for the German market when
BMW owned them).

On 12/04/2016 23:17, pamela wrote:

No one had debated if bacteria caused stomach ulcers because the
assumption had been that no bacteria could ever live there. It
had long been held that the contents of the stomach were far too
acidic for bacteria to survive. Consequently it was a real
surprise that bacteria, such as h.pylori, could be found there at
all and, from that, it was a step to find h.pylori was implicated
in ulcers. Although even that is still debated by some to this
day.


Err, that was suspected, but the big pharma companies that produced
Tagamet paid for many research posts in various teaching hospitals
and anyone who dared to try and challenge the accepted 'wisdom'
at the time would have committed professional suicide in the UK.

On 13/04/16 14:13, Andrew wrote:
The only British success story is ARM,
but that was never tainted by socialism (apart from the BBCs involvement).

the skills required to extract money from the taxpayer are orthogonal to
those needed to develop world beating technology.


--
€œit should be clear by now to everyone that activist environmentalism
(or environmental activism) is becoming a general ideology about humans,
about their freedom, about the relationship between the individual and
the state, and about the manipulation of people under the guise of a
'noble' idea. It is not an honest pursuit of 'sustainable development,'
a matter of elementary environmental protection, or a search for
rational mechanisms designed to achieve a healthy environment. Yet
things do occur that make you shake your head and remind yourself that
you live neither in Joseph Stalins Communist era, nor in the Orwellian
utopia of 1984.€�

Vaclav Klaus

En el artículo , Andrew Andrew97d-
escribió:

Not now I'm afraid. If you were well enough to get there by taxi, you
would then have to wait for hours and hours in many parts of the UK.

It was a blood clot. They don't make you wait for those, or they're
dealing with a body.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

In article ,
Andrew wrote:
If you were a rover then you probably didn't have any paint under the
doors, or were actually a cat (There were reports of dead cats being
sewn inside the seats of Rover 75's destined for the German market when
BMW owned them).

That would make the seat rather lumpy, given they are stuffed full of
pre-formed foam. And the seats are made by an outside supplier anyway.
Did you think you read this in an EU directive? ;-)

--
*Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 13/04/2016 15:08, Mike Tomlinson wrote:
En el artículo , Andrew Andrew97d-
escribió:

Not now I'm afraid. If you were well enough to get there by taxi, you
would then have to wait for hours and hours in many parts of the UK.

It was a blood clot. They don't make you wait for those, or they're
dealing with a body.

If you took an 8-12 hour flight knowing that you had a blood clot,
then either it wasn't, or you were extremely lucky (or silly).

On 12/04/2016 23:06, michael adams wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
However some inventions seem to wait for ever.

Can't think of any important one that has.

Here's one


https://fetch.co.uk/chuckit-sport-18...FbEy0wodcX0C2w

Ball launchers for when taking the dog to the park. One piece
plastic mouding with added bits must cost about 50p to make.

Probably can't be patented but its surprising nobody
thought of them earlier.

I think the atlatl is probably prior art on that.

En el artículo , Andrew Andrew97d-
escribió:

If you took an 8-12 hour flight knowing that you had a blood clot,
then either it wasn't,

It was. I'm still on warfarin now. And it was 7 hours, not 12.

or you were extremely lucky (or silly).

Both. But I knew what I was doing and what the risks were. I'm still
here to tell the tale.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

"pamela" wrote in message
...
On 11:13 13 Apr 2016, Rod Speed wrote:

pamela wrote
Rod Speed wrote
pamela wrote

No one had debated if bacteria caused stomach ulcers because
the assumption had been that no bacteria could ever live
there.

No one ever assumed anything of the sort. In fact it
was well known that bacteria could and did live there.

It had long been held that the contents of the
stomach were far too acidic for bacteria to survive.

Bull****.

Consequently it was a real surprise that bacteria,
such as h.pylori, could be found there at all

No it was not. That was well known for a long time.

I see we don't share the same understanding of what happened.
I admit I don't hold a monoploy on the truth but Wikipedia says
something very similar to what I wrote:

"At the time, the conventional thinking was that no bacterium
could live in the acid environment of the human stomach."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicobacter_pylori

In fact what that actually says is

It was identified in 1982 by Australian scientists Barry
Marshall and Robin Warren, who found that it was present in
a person with chronic gastritis and gastric ulcers,
conditions not previously believed to have a microbial
cause.

Which is nothing even remotely like what you wrote.

And
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora
says the exact opposite of what you wrote.

and, from that, it was a step to find
h.pylori was implicated in ulcers.

That utterly mangles what actually happened.

What did happen?

That wikipedia article is accurate.

If I'm mistaken then I would be interested
to hear the correct verson of events.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_...e_and_research

Although even that is still debated by some to this day.

Sure, its certainly possible that not all ulcers are due to
h.pylori and it also doesn't explain why plenty who do
have h.pylori in their stomachs don't get ulcers

In fact 80% of humans do have h.pylori in their guts.

and the obvious flow on from the finding that h.pylori
is the cause of most ulcers is that it should be possible
to give everyone a decent dose of the appropriate
antibiotics and ensure that no one ever gets an ulcer
again. In practice its more complicated than that.

Trivially proven by ingesting the bacteria that was claimed
to be the problem and seeing it produce ulcers.

All great insights are simple when looking back on them

That's not true either. Evolution isnt, particularly with
how something as complicated as the eye developed.

Evolution isn't an insight,

Corse its an insight into how life came about.

so I'm not sure I follow why it's a relevant
counter example to what I said.

but it can't have been all that simple at the
time if they got a nobel prize for their discovery.

That's not how you get a nobel prize.

True enough but that's not what I said.

As an example, I think the idea that nitric oxide is a
cellular signalling compound in the human body is simple
enough but it took some major insights to discover that.

Similarly, the special theory of relativity is
straightforward enough to understand by reading up on it on a
long train journey but it took Einstein to have the insight
to discover it.

But plenty of other equally revolutionary insights are nowhere
near as easy to understand even when they have been
established.

I would think a retrospective view of what a discovery entails
is always easier to understand than it is for a researcher at
the time for who the understanding doesn't yet exist.

Sure that is nothing like your original.

I guess we will have to differ. Nothing I read in this thread
makes me change my mind

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora
should. It says the exact opposite of your original claim
that "It had long been held that the contents of the
stomach were far too acidic for bacteria to survive"

And in fact
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_...e_and_research
says

It has been claimed that the H. pylori theory was ridiculed by the
establishment scientists and doctors, who did not believe that any
bacteria could live in the acidic environment of the stomach. Marshall
has been quoted as saying in 1998 that "(e)veryone was against me,
but I knew I was right."[10] On the other hand, it has also been argued
that medical researchers showed a proper degree of scientific scepticism
until the H. pylori hypothesis could be supported by evidence.[11]

which does show where that stupid claim about gut bacteria came from.

and I'm sure it's the same for you.

Because
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora
blows your original claim that "It had long been held that the
contents of the stomach were far too acidic for bacteria to survive"
completely out of the water.

I think we share too little common understanding to discuss this further.

It has nothing whatever to do with common understanding.

The claim that "It had long been held that the contents
of the stomach were far too acidic for bacteria to survive"
is just plain wrong.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 12/04/2016 23:06, michael adams wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
However some inventions seem to wait for ever.

Can't think of any important one that has.

Here's one


https://fetch.co.uk/chuckit-sport-18...FbEy0wodcX0C2w

Ball launchers for when taking the dog to the park. One piece
plastic mouding with added bits must cost about 50p to make.

Probably can't be patented but its surprising nobody
thought of them earlier.

I think the atlatl is probably prior art on that.

Nope. The sling shot might arguably be tho.

Very arguable tho given that those aren't rigid.

En el artículo , pamela
escribió:

Okay. Thanks.

Couldn't you just ignore him like everyone else, instead of
unnecessarily quoting reams of his rubbish for those that have him
killfiled and don't want to see his rubbish?

Have some consideration, please.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

En el artículo om, bm
escribió:

You'll have HRH Adams saying "don't tell me what to do".

She's in the killfile. Best place for her.

--
(\_/)
(='.'=) Windows 10: less of an OS, more of a drive-by mugging.
(")_(") -- "Esme" on el Reg

"Mike Tomlinson" wrote in message
...
En el artículo , pamela
escribió:

Okay. Thanks.

Couldn't you just ignore him like everyone else, instead of
unnecessarily quoting reams of his rubbish for those that have him
killfiled and don't want to see his rubbish?

Have some consideration, please.

You'll have HRH Adams saying "don't tell me what to do".

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 21:24:32 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 11 April 2016 20:50:56 UTC+1, wrote:
On Monday, 11 April 2016 18:32:02 UTC+1, wrote:
AIUI, my GP's surgery has had all my notes on computer for several
years, so, when they eventually get around to centralising notes, it
shouldn't take long to transfer those.

They'll probably be printed out by the surgery and posted to a depressed
area in the north of England, then scanned and emailed to the
Philippines, printed out again and and then typed into the NHS system.

Even if the GP's system and the NHS system have compatible file formats,
there's more profit for the IT contractors charging for data input and
they'll build that into their project bid.

yes that's probably the key point in how much money the company can get
out of any another company.
Which is why and where out sourcing comes in and while at the beginning it
looks good it eventually costs yuo more which is what we found when out
sourcing the cleaning contract it

Then you lot must have ****ed that up completely.

We didn't manamgment ****ed up, but they are good at covering up.


Everyone else did that fine.

You don't know much then do you.

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 22:44:34 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 14:45:46 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 12:46:14 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

I personally think we should be microchipped like dogs and cats
are, but I can't see the greenys buying that any century soon.

That's open to too much abuse. Apparently fitting them takes
only a small incision and so replacing them with a fraudulent
chip would be just as easy.

It's already been done with importing dogs.

You just need to kidnap someone
whose ID you wanted to steal, sedate them in some way,

whack them over the head will do the trick.

But that leaves open the possibility of doing them serious
and unintentional injury, possibly even fatal.

I doubt that if yuo are prepared to steal someones
elses identity you don;t give a **** about that person.

You would if they ended up dead.

No you wouldn't, any more than if you had a dead persons passport.
You really think peole reject passports becuse they belong to a dead person.


and its trivial to prove that
you have the microchip that was obtained from its corpse.

How ?


Only someone like you would actually be that stupid.

I wouldn't be stupid enough to insist the ID of a person I was taking was still alive.



I doubt its always as easy as it appears on the TV.

Maybe it's easier.

Nope.

Plenty do it.



It's been done with dogs who get sold on for a few hundred quid.

That bit was about hitting the person over the head with something.

So you could do the same with humans.


That isnt how its done with dogs.

dogs are micro chiped in the UK well they should be by law now.





That's why the tattoo goes on the forehead so its obvious when that has been
done.

Few people want such things on their forehead even if they get to choose the design & colour, so I doubt they'd want a barcode.

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 22:59:22 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...

I doubt that if yuo are prepared to steal someones elses identity you
don;t give a **** about that person.
Do you think those that by fake passports and ID have any concenrs
regarding the person who's ID you have brought ?

Successful criminals, stay succesful by generating as little
heat as possible. You don't do that by drawing attention to
your activities by engaging in purely gratuitous acts of violence,
leaving victims who are going to go running to the police.

Depends on the scale of the operation.
Theere's always a long list of successful criminals that will get away with stuff.
Al capone, what was he arrested for ?



Whereas in this case, the intention is that the victims may not
even realise that their chips have been swapped at all.

Why would you swap chips ?
Currently passports aren't swapped.
That's not how it works, you don't swap passports with someone lese to get in the UYK



They'll just wake up feeling groggy, and that will be it.

Yeah sure.
Just like they do when they steal your passport.

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 23:00:29 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message

Especially if it turns out you're supposed to be a cocker spaniel
and your name is supposed to be Rover.

I doubt they;d bother to check if they found Rod with a chip that said he was a cocker spaniel, all they need to know is that he has an arse and talks out of it.

On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 23:06:44 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
However some inventions seem to wait for ever.

Can't think of any important one that has.

Here's one


For me transportor technology is the obvious one, others think the hoverboard is long overdue.
FTL travel or just London transport being relible and good value.
The perpetualy filled beer mug.
And freedom of speech, although not realy an invention

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 22:59:22 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...

I doubt that if yuo are prepared to steal someones elses identity you
don;t give a **** about that person.
Do you think those that by fake passports and ID have any concenrs
regarding the person who's ID you have brought ?

Successful criminals, stay succesful by generating as little
heat as possible. You don't do that by drawing attention to
your activities by engaging in purely gratuitous acts of violence,
leaving victims who are going to go running to the police.

Al capone, what was he arrested for ?

After 9 years in prison followed by 8 years of syphilis and
the resulting dementia Al Capone died in 1947 at the age of
48.

His fellow bootlegger and Wall St Racketeer Joseph Kennedy
was appointed the inaugural Chairman of the U.S. Securities
and Exchange Commission (SEC), and served as the United States
Ambassador to the United Kingdom from 1938 until late 1940.

Avoiding both syphilis and prison he later gained fame as the
father of, and fixer for, serial womaniser and President of the
USA John F.Kennedy.

In later years, Kennedy worked behind the scenes to continue
building the financial and political fortunes of the Kennedy
family. After a disabling stroke in 1961, Kennedy developed
aphasia and lost all power of speech, but remained mentally
intact. He was confined to a wheelchair until his death in 1969.

HTH


michael adams

....

On Thursday, 14 April 2016 15:39:41 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 22:59:22 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...

I doubt that if yuo are prepared to steal someones elses identity you
don;t give a **** about that person.
Do you think those that by fake passports and ID have any concenrs
regarding the person who's ID you have brought ?

Successful criminals, stay succesful by generating as little
heat as possible. You don't do that by drawing attention to
your activities by engaging in purely gratuitous acts of violence,
leaving victims who are going to go running to the police.

Al capone, what was he arrested for ?

After 9 years in prison followed by 8 years of syphilis and
the resulting dementia Al Capone died in 1947 at the age of
48.

arrested in 1931 for tax evasion not that he did any violent crimes or was assciated with anything else dodgy.
I'm pretty sure tax evasion isn;t teh worst crime he was famous for.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 22:44:34 UTC+1, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 14:45:46 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, 12 April 2016 12:46:14 UTC+1, michael adams wrote:
"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...

I personally think we should be microchipped like dogs and cats
are, but I can't see the greenys buying that any century soon.

That's open to too much abuse. Apparently fitting them takes
only a small incision and so replacing them with a fraudulent
chip would be just as easy.

It's already been done with importing dogs.

You just need to kidnap someone
whose ID you wanted to steal, sedate them in some way,

whack them over the head will do the trick.

But that leaves open the possibility of doing them serious
and unintentional injury, possibly even fatal.

I doubt that if yuo are prepared to steal someones
elses identity you don;t give a **** about that person.

You would if they ended up dead.

No you wouldn't,

Corse you would when you get done for murder.

any more than if you had a dead persons passport.

Same with that if you killed that person to get that passport.

You really think peole reject passports
becuse they belong to a dead person.

Any country with even half a clue does.

and its trivial to prove that you have the
microchip that was obtained from its corpse.

How ?

Because there was no other way to get that dead person's microchip, stupid.

Only someone like you would actually be that stupid.

I wouldn't be stupid enough to insist the
ID of a person I was taking was still alive.

Then you would end up in jail for murder.

I doubt its always as easy as it appears on the TV.

Maybe it's easier.

Nope.

Plenty do it.

Nope.

It's been done with dogs who get sold on for a few hundred quid.

That bit was about hitting the person over the head with something.

So you could do the same with humans.

And get jailed for murder when you are that stupid.

That isnt how its done with dogs.

dogs are micro chiped in the UK

But the dogs that have their microchips stolen
aren't hit over the head to do that, ****wit.

well they should be by law now.

They don't have their microchips stolen by law, ****wit.

That's why the tattoo goes on the forehead
so its obvious when that has been done.

Few people want such things on their forehead even if they get
to choose the design & colour, so I doubt they'd want a barcode.

It isnt about what they want, ****wit.