On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 23:23:54 -0000, Hilo Black wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 21:54:31 -0000, charles
wrote:

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:39:51 -0000, News
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good at
one
specific thing?

Difficult. My ex SiL was thick as a plank when it came to anything
remotely practical. Even something as basic as everyday cooking, and
general household tasks. Utterly clueless yet, at the same time,
seemed to receive degrees like other people receive junk mail. She
certainly wasn't thick, but I would struggle to live with someone that
impractical.

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't mean
you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

Not really.

Yes, really.

Almost everything can be learnt off by heart.

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Difficult to do and not often done. Not in any exam I've seen.

And mostly you forget it a month later.

Not if you keep using it like the alphabet or with counting.

Most things you learn are not used often.

Understand it and it stays forever.

Not necessarily.

Definitely. I can remember everything I understood from school. But only a few things that I just learnt by heart.

--
Why is there only one Monopolies Commission?

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 23:23:54 -0000, Hilo Black wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 21:54:31 -0000, charles
wrote:

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:39:51 -0000, News
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good at
one
specific thing?

Difficult. My ex SiL was thick as a plank when it came to anything
remotely practical. Even something as basic as everyday cooking,
and
general household tasks. Utterly clueless yet, at the same time,
seemed to receive degrees like other people receive junk mail. She
certainly wasn't thick, but I would struggle to live with someone
that
impractical.

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't
mean
you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

Not really.

Yes, really.

Almost everything can be learnt off by heart.

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Difficult to do

Certainly more difficult than questions that test what
can be learned by heart, but still perfectly possible.

and not often done.

It is in fact done quite often with some subjects.

Not in any exam I've seen.

I just don't believe that all the questions that you
were ever asking in physics or pure maths exams
could be always answered by leaning by heart.

I know that mine weren't in those two subjects.

And mostly you forget it a month later.

Not if you keep using it like the alphabet or with counting.

Most things you learn are not used often.

Quite a bit of what you learn by heart is. In spades
with languages and spelling and grammar.

Understand it and it stays forever.

Not necessarily.

Definitely. I can remember everything I understood from school.

You can't. Unfortunately its impossible to prove
that over the net because you will just look it up
again, but there is plenty you will find that hasn't
stayed with you forever in a closed book exam.

But only a few things that I just learnt by heart.

Vast amounts of it in fact with language particularly.

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 00:23:35 -0000, Hilo Black wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 23:23:54 -0000, Hilo Black wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 21:54:31 -0000, charles
wrote:

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:39:51 -0000, News
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good at
one
specific thing?

Difficult. My ex SiL was thick as a plank when it came to anything
remotely practical. Even something as basic as everyday cooking,
and
general household tasks. Utterly clueless yet, at the same time,
seemed to receive degrees like other people receive junk mail. She
certainly wasn't thick, but I would struggle to live with someone
that
impractical.

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't
mean
you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

Not really.

Yes, really.

Almost everything can be learnt off by heart.

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Difficult to do

Certainly more difficult than questions that test what
can be learned by heart, but still perfectly possible.

and not often done.

It is in fact done quite often with some subjects.

Probably not scientific subjects.

Not in any exam I've seen.

I just don't believe that all the questions that you
were ever asking in physics or pure maths exams
could be always answered by leaning by heart.

Learning formulas off by heart for Physics.

Maths was more recognising patterns and remembering what you could do with equations. They didn't actually make any sense to me.

I know that mine weren't in those two subjects.

And mostly you forget it a month later.

Not if you keep using it like the alphabet or with counting.

Most things you learn are not used often.

Quite a bit of what you learn by heart is. In spades
with languages and spelling and grammar.

That's not learnt by cramming for an exam, not with me anyway. I learn those by life experience.

Understand it and it stays forever.

Not necessarily.

Definitely. I can remember everything I understood from school.

You can't. Unfortunately its impossible to prove
that over the net because you will just look it up
again, but there is plenty you will find that hasn't
stayed with you forever in a closed book exam.

I don't believe you. Everything that I understood will be remembered.

The other thing I can do very easily is pattern recognition. For example it's easy to tell that you are Rod Speed, just from the way you write.

--
Just got back from my mate's funeral. He died after being hit on the head with a tennis ball. It was a lovely service.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 00:23:35 -0000, Hilo Black wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 23:23:54 -0000, Hilo Black wrote:



"Mr Macaw" wrote in message
news On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 21:54:31 -0000, charles
wrote:

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:39:51 -0000, News
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good
at
one
specific thing?

Difficult. My ex SiL was thick as a plank when it came to
anything
remotely practical. Even something as basic as everyday cooking,
and
general household tasks. Utterly clueless yet, at the same time,
seemed to receive degrees like other people receive junk mail.
She
certainly wasn't thick, but I would struggle to live with someone
that
impractical.

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't
mean
you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

Not really.

Yes, really.

Almost everything can be learnt off by heart.

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Difficult to do

Certainly more difficult than questions that test what
can be learned by heart, but still perfectly possible.

and not often done.

It is in fact done quite often with some subjects.

Probably not scientific subjects.

It is in fact often done with scientific subjects
and with exams in other technical areas.

Not in any exam I've seen.

I just don't believe that all the questions that you
were ever asking in physics or pure maths exams
could be always answered by leaning by heart.

Learning formulas off by heart for Physics.

Yes, but there is a lot more than just formulas to university level physics.

Maths was more recognising patterns and remembering what you could do with
equations.

That isnt what university level pure maths is about.

They didn't actually make any sense to me.

If they didn't, you wouldn't have been able
to get the result you claim to have got.

I know that mine weren't in those two subjects.

And mostly you forget it a month later.

Not if you keep using it like the alphabet or with counting.

Most things you learn are not used often.

Quite a bit of what you learn by heart is. In spades
with languages and spelling and grammar.

That's not learnt by cramming for an exam,

But is learned by heart. There is no other
way to do that with the bulk of language.

not with me anyway. I learn those by life experience.

By remembering what is allowed and what is not correct.

Understand it and it stays forever.

Not necessarily.

Definitely. I can remember everything I understood from school.

You can't. Unfortunately its impossible to prove
that over the net because you will just look it up
again, but there is plenty you will find that hasn't
stayed with you forever in a closed book exam.

I don't believe you.

Doesn't matter what you believe. A closed book
exam would prove that there is plenty that you
\did understand that you have forgotten now.

Everything that I understood will be remembered.

A closed book exam would prove that it wasn't.

The other thing I can do very easily is pattern recognition.

And that is entirely done by memory, not understanding.

For example it's easy to tell that you are Rod Speed, just from the way
you write.

And that is entirely done by memory, not understanding.

And there is just one person that can imitate me so
accurately that there are no obvious errors that I can
pick, and he is a lawyer, one of the fields in which a
good memory is very important for success.

In message ,
writes
On Sunday, 7 February 2016 19:34:17 UTC, ARW wrote:
It's the appentices that make me grumpy:-).

Is there any cure for a grumbling apprentice?

Oh, very good :-)
--
Graeme

HOWEVER - I would like to point out (and I am proud to say) that the no
3 apprentice I mentioned recently got a phone call from a customer to
the office saying what a charming well mannered young man he was. I only
left him alone with her for 15 minutes in the garage fixing a light!


Sounds like he has a future, albeit not as an electrician

stuart noble wrote

HOWEVER - I would like to point out (and I am proud to say) that the no 3
apprentice I mentioned recently got a phone call from a customer to the
office saying what a charming well mannered young man he was. I only left
him alone with her for 15 minutes in the garage fixing a light!

Sounds like he has a future, albeit not as an electrician

No reason why he can't be one of the better electricians.

Bet it was the one that couldn’t show up at the same time the other ones
could.

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 10:23:54 +1100, "Hilo Black"
wrote:

snip

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't mean
you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

Not really.

Yes, really.

Almost everything can be learnt off by heart.

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Further, it's also possible to ask a question using language that may
not be appropriate for all ages, even if we know the actual answer?

I was fortunate to be one of the Instructors who presented to someone
who (eventually) became Europe's youngest CNE (Certified Novell
Engineer). He didn't pass many of the test first time simply because
he didn't understand the wording of the questions as they often used
words he wasn't sure about.

When we debriefed him straight after the test and worded the questions
he failed differently, his answer was always technically spot on.

And mostly you forget it a month later.

Not if you keep using it like the alphabet or with counting.

Yes, but 'only if' in many cases.

Understand it and it stays forever.

Not necessarily.

No, but generally you do.

What you hear you forget.
What you see you remember.
What you do you understand.

Once you have done and 'understand' something (and both animals and
humans have successfully used the 'mentoring' technique for millions
of years) it is more imprinted and so less chance of you just
forgetting, as you might with something less tangible.

I am definitely someone who learns (and therefore remembers) by doing.
Show me how to do something once and assuming it's not *very* complex
/ complicated or requiring skills I don't have ... I can generally
then do it myself. If the start to finish process is logical I don't
need to remember the steps because 'it's logical'. So, I could easily
wire up a fused spur but might not be able to remember the sequence of
events re adding the ingredients when making a cake. Give me the list
or a few mentored runs and again I could do it un-aided.

Or daughter is very much the same. Even when trying to tell her how to
do something that involves steps that she may not be familiar with I
can see her glazing over but when she has it all in front of he I can
see how she can deal with most things very easily, just with a few
suitably timed prompts at the key points. After that the chances are
she could do it herself un-aided.

I'm not 'a reader'. I don't find reading relaxing, entertaining or
particularly informative, especially in comparison to other ways of
learning like mentoring or even Youtube.

I'm very much from the 'A picture speaks 1000 words' camp and so will
generally only reference the manual or even assembly instructions
once, where there may be some gotchas or where you need to work to
some setting (tightening torque or length etc).

Cheers, T i m

On 07/02/2016 21:50, Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:41:31 -0000, ARW
wrote:

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 14:02, Fredxxx wrote:

What happens next? He fails his exams a couple of times, and then he
gets thrown out?

College have said that he is failing. And the answer to your
question is
yes.

If it is that obvious at the outset why bother with him?

The only reason I can think of is a very low minimum wage for the first
year and negligible labour cost to the company.

At the expense of the time of a skilled electrician to supervise him,
though.


Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with
you if
you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever
met.
In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were
offered a
job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial (his
first day
with me).

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

Why do you use apprentices at all? Is there a lack of skilled
electricians?


Government grants.
They get paid to have them for the first few months.

On 07/02/2016 23:28, Mr Macaw wrote:

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Difficult to do and not often done. Not in any exam I've seen.


You didn't do O' levels then.

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 07/02/2016 23:28, Mr Macaw wrote:

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Difficult to do and not often done. Not in any exam I've seen.


You didn't do O' levels then.

I think he's in Scotland: "lowers" and "highers" are the relevant exams.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Saturday, 6 February 2016 18:38:18 UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 12:04:49 UTC, ARW wrote:
I have not worked with this one very often [1] but I played hell up in the
office last week because despite him been a second year apprentice he did
not know how to wire up a switched fused spur.

It is difficult isn't it if you've never seen one before, all the possible permutations of L and N and Supply and Load :-)

I might be a bit concerned that he'd been an apprentice for 2 years and had not been shown how to do what was expected of him.

I ****ed outside a potaloo once but that was because the dumb blonde had left the key to the padlock inside the house, she said the house was locked so I couldn't use the inside toilet, so to use the portaloo.



Admittedly I do have one in my kitchen where the neon glows all the time, but that's just temporary to make the end of the cable safe.

Owain

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 11:59:57 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

On 07/02/2016 23:28, Mr Macaw wrote:

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Difficult to do and not often done. Not in any exam I've seen.

You didn't do O' levels then.

I think it depends more on the subject. At O level I did Geography, English, Maths, Physics, Biology, Computing, Chemistry. Actually I think they were all standard grades except Chemistry which they hadn't rewritten yet.

--
****head Simon saw sexy Sheila sucking Stephen's stiff sperm sausage softly, so Simon sucked
Stuart's super sized sexrod savagely. Several sluts saw Stuart spraying spunk, soaking Sarah's
stockings severely. Sarah swiftly smacked Stuart's shaft sideways, sending Stuart's sticky spitting semen
sensationally soaring.

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 11:59:57 -0000, dennis@home wrote:

On 07/02/2016 23:28, Mr Macaw wrote:

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Difficult to do and not often done. Not in any exam I've seen.

You didn't do O' levels then.

I think it depends more on the subject. At O level I did Geography, English, Maths, Physics, Biology, Computing, Chemistry. Actually I think they were all standard grades except Chemistry which they hadn't rewritten yet.

--
****head Simon saw sexy Sheila sucking Stephen's stiff sperm sausage softly, so Simon sucked
Stuart's super sized sexrod savagely. Several sluts saw Stuart spraying spunk, soaking Sarah's
stockings severely. Sarah swiftly smacked Stuart's shaft sideways, sending Stuart's sticky spitting semen
sensationally soaring.

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 12:06:45 -0000, charles wrote:

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 07/02/2016 23:28, Mr Macaw wrote:

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Difficult to do and not often done. Not in any exam I've seen.

You didn't do O' levels then.

I think he's in Scotland: "lowers" and "highers" are the relevant exams.

I did them as they were changing, so some of each.
O became Standard (3rd and 4th year).
A became Higher and Sixth year studies (I think? Was A level 5th and 6th year - a 2 year exam? Higher was just 5th year and Sixth Year Studies was 6th year.)
I got an entry into University (well all 5 I applied to actually) from my 5th year Higher results, but stayed on till 6th year anyway, which made University a lot easier at the beginning as I already knew half the stuff).

--
What is the difference between a battery and a woman?
A battery has a positive side.

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 12:06:45 -0000, charles wrote:

In article . com,
dennis@home wrote:
On 07/02/2016 23:28, Mr Macaw wrote:

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Difficult to do and not often done. Not in any exam I've seen.

You didn't do O' levels then.

I think he's in Scotland: "lowers" and "highers" are the relevant exams.

I did them as they were changing, so some of each.
O became Standard (3rd and 4th year).
A became Higher and Sixth year studies (I think? Was A level 5th and 6th year - a 2 year exam? Higher was just 5th year and Sixth Year Studies was 6th year.)
I got an entry into University (well all 5 I applied to actually) from my 5th year Higher results, but stayed on till 6th year anyway, which made University a lot easier at the beginning as I already knew half the stuff).

--
What is the difference between a battery and a woman?
A battery has a positive side.

On Sunday, 7 February 2016 09:36:24 UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, 7 February 2016 09:02:02 UTC, stuart noble wrote:
I pointed one out to my 4 year old grand daughter the other day, and
asked her what she thought it might be. As it wasn't pink, she wasn't
very interested

Pink ones are available:

http://loohire.org/enviro-loo-toilet-hire-services

http://www.peeweetoilethire.com/gallery

Owain

I think they should make them to look like police telephone boxes and call them The Turdis

On Sunday, 7 February 2016 17:58:50 UTC, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:41:31 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

snip

Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you if
you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

And you probably can't just leave them to do basic stuff as you
probably have a duty of care?

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever met.
In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were offered a
job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial (his first day
with me).

Daughter has seen new (and agency) people last just the morning.

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

I wonder if they are 'getting worse' at your sort of work ... or any
skilled trade for that matter?

From what I have seen there seems to be a new breed who think it's
perfectly normal / reasonable to be able to earn a fortune by being a
nobody on TV, or being able to sing or kick a ball and be happy to do
so rather than actually doing something 'useful'?

Have you ever had a heart_to_heart with these failing apprentices to
find out what they would really want to do (if anything)?

They want to be rich and famous what else to be in life ....

On Sunday, 7 February 2016 19:21:38 UTC, ARW wrote:

HOWEVER - I would like to point out (and I am proud to say) that the no 3
apprentice I mentioned recently got a phone call from a customer to the
office saying what a charming well mannered young man he was. I only left
him alone with her for 15 minutes in the garage fixing a light!

And now your customer is pregnant ;-0

In article , pamela
writes
On 21:44 7 Feb 2016, ARW wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 7 February 2016 19:34:17 UTC, ARW wrote:
It's the appentices that make me grumpy:-).

Is there any cure for a grumbling apprentice?


The one that went to the police saying that I had assaulted him is
also failing at college.

Years ago, I remember thwacking a student on the head specifically
because she said "You can't hit me".

I think I was lucky I didn't get hauled before the European Court of
Human Rights or some war crimes tribunal because that's what seems to be
happening these days.

How items have changed. We had a history teacher at school who had a
short fuse and we used to have a points system for who could wind him up
and provoke the most violent attack The girls in the class won every
time.
--
bert

In article ,
whisky-dave writes
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 18:38:18 UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 12:04:49 UTC, ARW wrote:
I have not worked with this one very often [1] but I played hell up in the
office last week because despite him been a second year apprentice he did
not know how to wire up a switched fused spur.

It is difficult isn't it if you've never seen one before, all the
possible permutations of L and N and Supply and Load :-)

I might be a bit concerned that he'd been an apprentice for 2 years and
had not been shown how to do what was expected of him.

On what basis do you infer he had not been shown?
I ****ed outside a potaloo once but that was because the dumb blonde
had left the key to the padlock inside the house, she said the house
was locked so I couldn't use the inside toilet, so to use the portaloo.



Admittedly I do have one in my kitchen where the neon glows all the
time, but that's just temporary to make the end of the cable safe.

Owain


--
bert

On Monday, 8 February 2016 15:06:32 UTC, bert wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave writes
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 18:38:18 UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 12:04:49 UTC, ARW wrote:
I have not worked with this one very often [1] but I played hell up in the
office last week because despite him been a second year apprentice he did
not know how to wire up a switched fused spur.

It is difficult isn't it if you've never seen one before, all the
possible permutations of L and N and Supply and Load :-)

I might be a bit concerned that he'd been an apprentice for 2 years and
had not been shown how to do what was expected of him.

On what basis do you infer he had not been shown?

No basis other than he hadn't done what was expected.
We have NO idea why he couldn't wore one up do we.

At this moment I have approx 50+ 'apprentices' in my lab.
Well undergrad students, if I see them doing something wrong or not doing something right I must assume they've never been shown how to do it before,
so I show them if asked.

In article ,
ARW wrote:
Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you
if you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever
met. In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were
offered a job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial
(his first day with me).

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

Doesn't surprise me. Long before I'd got to apprentice age, I'd played
with things like a battery, bulb and switch. Electric train sets had to be
wired up - not just plug a lead in as you'd get today. You bought
connecting wire and had to cut it to length, strip it back and connect to
a terminal. So the most elementary basics of an electrical circuit were
already familiar.

You don't get any of that from Facebook, etc. ;-)

--
*I wish the buck stopped here. I could use a few.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 08:22:19 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

snip

At this moment I have approx 50+ 'apprentices' in my lab.

Is the bar not open yet? ;-)

Well undergrad students, if I see them doing something wrong or not doing something right I must assume they've never been shown how to do it before, so I show them if asked.

I think I would do the same ... however, I guess even I would have a
'limit' re how many times I did so to any one student?

Cheers, T i m

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 18:38:18 UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 12:04:49 UTC, ARW wrote:
I have not worked with this one very often [1] but I played hell up in
the
office last week because despite him been a second year apprentice he
did
not know how to wire up a switched fused spur.

It is difficult isn't it if you've never seen one before, all the
possible permutations of L and N and Supply and Load :-)

I might be a bit concerned that he'd been an apprentice for 2 years and
had not been shown how to do what was expected of him.


One of them claimed that they had not done extractor fans and smoke alarms
the other day and it was not fair that he should be left on his own to do
them in a particular flat.

This was flat 4. He managed to do flat 2 and 6 on his own just before
Christmas.

--
Adam

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 18:38:18 UTC, wrote:
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 12:04:49 UTC, ARW wrote:
I have not worked with this one very often [1] but I played hell up in
the
office last week because despite him been a second year apprentice he
did
not know how to wire up a switched fused spur.

It is difficult isn't it if you've never seen one before, all the
possible permutations of L and N and Supply and Load :-)

I might be a bit concerned that he'd been an apprentice for 2 years and
had not been shown how to do what was expected of him.


He has fitted them before.

--
Adam

"stuart noble" wrote in message
news

HOWEVER - I would like to point out (and I am proud to say) that the no
3 apprentice I mentioned recently got a phone call from a customer to
the office saying what a charming well mannered young man he was. I only
left him alone with her for 15 minutes in the garage fixing a light!


Sounds like he has a future, albeit not as an electrician


If this one does fail it will not be for the lack of people helping him.
Everyone wants this one to pass.

English is not his first language (although English was taught at his
school). It did take me a while to find out that his parents do not speak in
English to him or each other when they are at home.

--
Adam

On Monday, 8 February 2016 18:09:39 UTC, ARW wrote:
One of them claimed that they had not done extractor fans and smoke alarms
the other day and it was not fair that he should be left on his own to do
them in a particular flat.

I'd not done them before I did them for the first time, but they do come with instructions and there is a pictorial guide showing all the wire colours in the Reader's Digest Easy Guide to Home Electrics [1]

This was flat 4. He managed to do flat 2 and 6 on his own just before
Christmas.

Maybe it's like school holidays, you forget half of what you learnt last term.

Owain

[1] I am a little more sceptical about the instructions in Newnes Guide to Bell Hanging and Gas Fitting when it comes to fitting a new boiler :-)

T i m wrote
Hilo Black wrote

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory.
It doesn't mean you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

Not really.

Yes, really.

Almost everything can be learnt off by heart.

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

Further, it's also possible to ask a question using language that may
not be appropriate for all ages, even if we know the actual answer?

Sure, but that's a different problem.

I was fortunate to be one of the Instructors who presented to someone
who (eventually) became Europe's youngest CNE (Certified Novell
Engineer). He didn't pass many of the test first time simply because
he didn't understand the wording of the questions as they often used
words he wasn't sure about.

When we debriefed him straight after the test and worded the questions
he failed differently, his answer was always technically spot on.

Yeah, I find the same thing with the oldest of the turk kids.
His english is pretty good but he can ring me up about a
particular word in a form he is filling out that floors him
completely even tho it's a commonly used word. Unfortunately
I can't quite remember the latest example which surprised me.

And he's just recently completed school here and all
his time in school was here, none of it was in Turkey.

And mostly you forget it a month later.

Not if you keep using it like the alphabet or with counting.

Yes, but 'only if' in many cases.

Dunno. I still remember my times tables even
tho I don't use them much at all anymore.

And still remember a lot of language
stuff that I don't personally use at all.

Understand it and it stays forever.

Not necessarily.

No, but generally you do.

I'm not convinced. I find that I have to look
up quite a bit of what I used to be fluent with
in my uni days, stuff that I haven't used since.

What you hear you forget.
What you see you remember.

Hell of a lot of what you see you don't remember
and that is why witness statements can be so unreliable.

What you do you understand.

That isnt the same thing as remembering what you understand.

Once you have done and 'understand' something (and both animals
and humans have successfully used the 'mentoring' technique for
millions of years) it is more imprinted and so less chance of you
just forgetting, as you might with something less tangible.

Dunno. I find that when I have worked out a particularly
efficient way of doing something relatively complicated,
I don't always remember that particularly efficient way of
doing it when I come to do it again say 10 years later.

I am definitely someone who learns (and therefore remembers) by doing.

Sure, that's certainly a real effect with many, but isnt the
same thing as always remembering what you understood.

Show me how to do something once and assuming it's not *very*
complex / complicated or requiring skills I don't have ... I can generally
then do it myself. If the start to finish process is logical I don't need
to
remember the steps because 'it's logical'. So, I could easily wire up a
fused spur but might not be able to remember the sequence of
events re adding the ingredients when making a cake. Give me
the list or a few mentored runs and again I could do it un-aided.

Sure, but again, that's what makes learning something
by heart easier, not what is being discussed, whether
when you understand you wont forget it.

A better example is if you understand why you need to be
very careful when heating milk in a saucepan on the stove
why it can boil over much more easily than water does in
that situation, rather than trying to remember to be much
more careful with milk without understanding why.

Or daughter is very much the same. Even when trying to tell her
how to do something that involves steps that she may not be
familiar with I can see her glazing over but when she has it all
in front of he I can see how she can deal with most things very
easily, just with a few suitably timed prompts at the key points.
After that the chances are she could do it herself un-aided.

Sure, but again, that's how best to teach stuff learned
by heart, not what is being discussed, whether
understanding means that you will never forget it.

I'm not 'a reader'. I don't find reading relaxing, entertaining
or particularly informative, especially in comparison to other
ways of learning like mentoring or even Youtube.

I'm the opposite, I find it much more convenient to speed
read thru some instructions to find the information I need
about what the trick is to getting into something, like say
there is a hidden screw under something, than to waste
lots more time watching a youtube video that covers all
the obvious stuff like the clearly visible screws too.

And again, that's not understanding means you never forget.

I'm very much from the 'A picture speaks 1000 words' camp

So am I , particularly when someone is asking what is the
best approach with a particular problem or when I am
trying to decide whether something is what I want to buy.

and so will generally only reference the manual
or even assembly instructions once,

I normally only do that if it isnt obvious what to do.

where there may be some gotchas or where you need to
work to some setting (tightening torque or length etc).

I used to avidly devout all manuals and instructions when
I was a kid. I do normally skim thru the manual now after
I have been using the device to see if there is other stuff
the device can do which isnt obvious from using it.

I noticed you said elsewhere that you don't do that yourself.

But that's another example of where understanding doesn't
necessarily mean you will remember it forever. There is quite
a bit of stuff that has to be done in a particular sequence for
a perfectly valid reason, but understanding that doesn't
necessarily mean you will remember that when you come
to do it again much later. You may well have to look it up
again or at least look at your notes on how to do that later.

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 7 February 2016 09:36:24 UTC, wrote:
On Sunday, 7 February 2016 09:02:02 UTC, stuart noble wrote:
I pointed one out to my 4 year old grand daughter the other day, and
asked her what she thought it might be. As it wasn't pink, she wasn't
very interested

Pink ones are available:

http://loohire.org/enviro-loo-toilet-hire-services

http://www.peeweetoilethire.com/gallery

Owain

I think they should make them to look like police telephone boxes and call
them The Turdis

I've have you publicly flogged for that if you hadn't so obviously enjoyed
that the last time.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ARW wrote:
Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you
if you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever
met. In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were
offered a job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial
(his first day with me).

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

Doesn't surprise me. Long before I'd got to apprentice age, I'd played
with things like a battery, bulb and switch


Electric train sets had to be
wired up - not just plug a lead in as you'd get today. You bought
connecting wire and had to cut it to length, strip it back and connect to
a terminal. So the most elementary basics of an electrical circuit were
already familiar.

If doing it properly you would probably have touched the terminals to your
tongue or at least your younger siblings tongue just to see what
happened:-).

I doubt most school leavers could draw or make a basic circuit consisting of
a battery, a switch and a lamp to turn a lamp on. Probably due to that
schools often now have more inclusion officers than science teachers.

When the gfs lad decided to start acting the **** at school last year it was
the removal of his laptop, phone etc by his mother that made him change his
attitude very quickly.



--
Adam

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 18:26:05 +0000, ARW wrote:

If this one does fail it will not be for the lack of people helping him.
Everyone wants this one to pass.

English is not his first language (although English was taught at his
school). It did take me a while to find out that his parents do not
speak in English to him or each other when they are at home.

Oooh, that's going to set certain quarters of this group off...

On Mon, 08 Feb 2016 17:27:57 +0000, T i m wrote:

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 08:22:19 -0800 (PST), whisky-dave
wrote:

At this moment I have approx 50+ 'apprentices' in my lab.

Is the bar not open yet? ;-)

Yes, that's what he means. They're in "his pub". They're trying very hard
to ignore the drooling, reeking drunk in a pool of his own vomit in the
corner, though.

On 08/02/16 18:09, ARW wrote:

One of them claimed that they had not done extractor fans and smoke
alarms the other day and it was not fair that he should be left on his
own to do them in a particular flat.

This was flat 4. He managed to do flat 2 and 6 on his own just before
Christmas.


Maybe someone should go back and check the wiring in 2 and 6.



--
djc

(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)
No low-hanging fruit, just a lot of small berries up a tall tree.

Apprenticeships are poorly paid in the initial years until apprentices begin to acquire more skill and knowledge. Generally when one is successfully completed it leads to a well paid career. The criminal aspect of time waster apprentices is to deprive others, who see it as an investment for the future, the opportunity to get an apprenticeship.

Richard

"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 8 February 2016 15:06:32 UTC, bert wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave writes
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 18:38:18 UTC,
wrote:
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 12:04:49 UTC, ARW wrote:
I have not worked with this one very often [1] but I played hell up
in the
office last week because despite him been a second year apprentice
he did
not know how to wire up a switched fused spur.

It is difficult isn't it if you've never seen one before, all the
possible permutations of L and N and Supply and Load :-)

I might be a bit concerned that he'd been an apprentice for 2 years and
had not been shown how to do what was expected of him.

On what basis do you infer he had not been shown?

No basis other than he hadn't done what was expected.
We have NO idea why he couldn't wore one up do we.

We do actually. A 2nd year apprentice would have not only
taught how to do that in college by now, but would likely
have had the supervising electrician tell him the first time
as well and may well have done that more than once too.

At this moment I have approx 50+ 'apprentices' in my lab.

Those aren't apprentices in the same sense.

Well undergrad students, if I see them doing something wrong
or not doing something right I must assume they've never been
shown how to do it before, so I show them if asked.

2nd year apprentice electricians are in nothing
like that situation with fused spurs.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
ARW wrote:
Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you
if you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever
met. In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were
offered a job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial
(his first day with me).

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

Doesn't surprise me.

Me neither if they are getting headed into other areas instead
of apprenticeships, its hardly surprising that the likes of the
operation Adam works for end up with the dregs of kids.

Long before I'd got to apprentice age, I'd played
with things like a battery, bulb and switch. Electric train sets had to be
wired up - not just plug a lead in as you'd get today. You bought
connecting wire and had to cut it to length, strip it back and connect to
a terminal. So the most elementary basics of an electrical circuit were
already familiar.

Plenty of kids still do stuff like that.

You don't get any of that from Facebook, etc. ;-)

You do actually. Just had one of the locals who has
an autistic kid who is into that sort of thing ask about
who could help that kid with doing stuff like that.

On Mon, 8 Feb 2016 13:38:12 -0800 (PST), Tricky Dicky
wrote:

Apprenticeships are poorly paid in the initial years until apprentices begin to acquire more skill and knowledge.

Agreed (often).

Generally when one is successfully completed it leads to a well paid career.

That's the hope. ;-)

The criminal aspect of time waster apprentices is to deprive others, who see it as an investment for the future, the opportunity to get an apprenticeship.

Agreed, even if they are doing so unintentionally.

Daughter (being reasonably bright) has seen this many times on many
courses and is especially frustrated because the pace is often fairly
slow for her.

In her field (arboriculture), the apprentices are mostly 'lads' and
they seem even worse than the girls regarding attitude (especially
compared with any girls looking to get into that particular field).

Her Ex is also an arb assessor tutor so we have first hand
confirmation of the sorts of issues Adam reports with the apprentices
he is given.

As has also been mentioned it seems to be a conflict between getting
enough 'bums on seats' to get the sponsorship to justify running the
courses in the first place and finding enough 'good' apprentices (and
their employers) willing to sign up (and potentially end up supporting
a better trained workforce).

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote
Tricky Dicky wrote

Apprenticeships are poorly paid in the initial years until
apprentices begin to acquire more skill and knowledge.

Agreed (often).

Always in fact if they are apprentices in a legal sense.

But a lot better for them than having to pay to learn instead.

Generally when one is successfully completed it leads to a well paid
career.

That's the hope. ;-)

And the reality unless they are complete duds.

The criminal aspect of time waster apprentices is to deprive others, who
see
it as an investment for the future, the opportunity to get an
apprenticeship.

Agreed, even if they are doing so unintentionally.

Daughter (being reasonably bright) has seen this
many times on many courses and is especially
frustrated because the pace is often fairly slow for her.

In her field (arboriculture), the apprentices are mostly 'lads' and
they seem even worse than the girls regarding attitude (especially
compared with any girls looking to get into that particular field).

Her Ex is also an arb assessor tutor so we have first
hand confirmation of the sorts of issues Adam reports
with the apprentices he is given.

As has also been mentioned it seems to be a conflict between getting
enough 'bums on seats' to get the sponsorship to justify running the
courses in the first place and finding enough 'good' apprentices (and
their employers) willing to sign up (and potentially end up supporting
a better trained workforce).

On Monday, 8 February 2016 22:04:53 UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
"whisky-dave" wrote in message
...
On Monday, 8 February 2016 15:06:32 UTC, bert wrote:
In article ,
whisky-dave writes
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 18:38:18 UTC,
wrote:
On Saturday, 6 February 2016 12:04:49 UTC, ARW wrote:
I have not worked with this one very often [1] but I played hell up
in the
office last week because despite him been a second year apprentice
he did
not know how to wire up a switched fused spur.

It is difficult isn't it if you've never seen one before, all the
possible permutations of L and N and Supply and Load :-)

I might be a bit concerned that he'd been an apprentice for 2 years and
had not been shown how to do what was expected of him.

On what basis do you infer he had not been shown?

No basis other than he hadn't done what was expected.
We have NO idea why he couldn't wore one up do we.

We do actually.

How ?.

A 2nd year apprentice would have not only
taught how to do that in college by now,

yuor assuming he was at college. When I was at college we had 3 apprentices
they all had their test pappers thrown in the bin when they turned up
after the test had finsihed. Not that we saw much of them during the term time.

but would likely
have had the supervising electrician tell him the first time
as well and may well have done that more than once too.

May have... may have, been mentally asleep while being shown.

At this moment I have approx 50+ 'apprentices' in my lab.

Those aren't apprentices in the same sense.

No they aren;t but they still need help even with some of the simplest things.
I even had to tell a research student how to get out ofm teh lab, they had to push the door where it said push rather than standing their pulling it.
But now I've had the handles removed there's less confusion.


Well undergrad students, if I see them doing something wrong
or not doing something right I must assume they've never been
shown how to do it before, so I show them if asked.

2nd year apprentice electricians are in nothing
like that situation with fused spurs.

irrelivent although I dont really know what teh above is suposed to mean. If someone doesn't know something why not show them how it;s done
that;'s what education is all about. If you're training anyone or as I do impart my knowlege then that's what you do even if you have to tell them twice or explain it to them 3 or more times.