On 07/02/2016 14:02, Fredxxx wrote:

What happens next? He fails his exams a couple of times, and then he
gets thrown out?

College have said that he is failing. And the answer to your question is
yes.

If it is that obvious at the outset why bother with him?

The only reason I can think of is a very low minimum wage for the first
year and negligible labour cost to the company.

At the expense of the time of a skilled electrician to supervise him,
though.

stuart noble wrote

All but the most stupid should have noticed
portaloos even without that stuff.

I pointed one out to my 4 year old grand daughter the other day, and
asked her what she thought it might be. As it wasn't pink, she wasn't
very interested but now she knows and, hopefully, she won't forget. Add
all these little things together and you have what we call an education.

Only the most stupid ever need someone to point out a portaloo
and tell them what its for. They hadn't even been invented when
I was 4 and yet somehow I do actually know what they are for
even tho I have never actually been inside one myself.

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 14:02, Fredxxx wrote:

What happens next? He fails his exams a couple of times, and then he
gets thrown out?

College have said that he is failing. And the answer to your question is
yes.

If it is that obvious at the outset why bother with him?

The only reason I can think of is a very low minimum wage for the first
year and negligible labour cost to the company.

At the expense of the time of a skilled electrician to supervise him,
though.


Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you if
you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever met.
In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were offered a
job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial (his first day
with me).

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.


--
Adam

On 07/02/2016 17:33, Rod Speed wrote:


Only the most stupid ever need someone to point out a portaloo
and tell them what its for. They hadn't even been invented when I was 4
and yet somehow I do actually know what they are for even tho I have
never actually been inside one myself.

They are for hiding from dinosaurs.

"ARW" wrote in message
...
"GB" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 10:42, ARW wrote:

If a second year electrical apprentice cannot wire up a switched fused
spur then IMHO he is a thick ******* and should be getting ready to
leave.


What gets me is how did he get as far as year 2 of his apprenticeship?
Surely, it's sensible to chuck him out after a week/month or two? It
should have been obvious by then that he didn't have the nous to do the
job.


You should see the ones we do throw out!

Still makes much more sense to give him the bums
rush in weeks rather than have him waste the time
of people like you for more than a year.

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:41:31 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

snip

Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you if
you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

And you probably can't just leave them to do basic stuff as you
probably have a duty of care?

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever met.
In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were offered a
job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial (his first day
with me).

Daughter has seen new (and agency) people last just the morning.

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

I wonder if they are 'getting worse' at your sort of work ... or any
skilled trade for that matter?

From what I have seen there seems to be a new breed who think it's
perfectly normal / reasonable to be able to earn a fortune by being a
nobody on TV, or being able to sing or kick a ball and be happy to do
so rather than actually doing something 'useful'?

Have you ever had a heart_to_heart with these failing apprentices to
find out what they would really want to do (if anything)?

Cheers, T i m

T i m wrote
ARW wrote

I'd go with 'doesn't seem to be cut out for electrical engineering
or installation' but I'm not sure 'thick' is necessarily fair.

I'm not sure you should label anyone such for not say having the same
skills as you, the appropriate interest or even attitude. They could
be called 'short sighted' if they were complaining about having to
take their turn making the tea or not putting in the effort when they
had the skills but if they are simply lacking in intellect or hand-eye
coordination I'm not sure 'thick' would be a PC word (FWTW etc).


PC words are not for me.

We know mate. ;-)

If a second year electrical apprentice cannot wire up a switched fused
spur
then IMHO he is a thick ******* and should be getting ready to leave.

No problem with the logic or potential outcome (from a practical /
commercial pov) but is he really as you describe

Corse he is. He's so ****ing stupid that only does he have
to be told that there is a portaloo in the front garden after
having walked past it, he cant even work out where it is
after having been told where it is very explicitly indeed.

or simply not got a good memory,

Don't need a good memory to be told where the portaloo
is and be able to remember what you have been told for
the very short time required to get to the front garden.

isn't very good with hand skills,

Even you should be able to work out how to open the
door of a portaloo without a full course on how to do that.

isn't very confident

Confident enough to **** in the front garden outside the portaloo.

or have 'other issues' (possibly a bad home life)?

Which involved getting whipped every time
he ****ed his pants instead of in the dunny ?

I appreciate you aren't a social worker so none of those things
(if any were the case) should be 'your problem', but there can
be more to things than what can been seen on the surface.

Very unlikely with a fool that cant even work out where the
portaloo is after having been told very explicitly where it is.

I don't think I've ever met anyone I would call 'thick'

Then you need to get out more.

because I appreciate we are all different, have different
backgrounds, opportunities and intellects and of course,
'thickness' (as you would call it) is comparative.

You'll end up completely blind if you don't watch out, boy.

reams of your even sillier **** flushed where it belongs

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 14:15:26 +0000, stuart noble
wrote:

snip

And if your forte is nicking cars, make sure you're the best bloody car
thief there's ever been.

Quite. ;-)

And indeed that would be covered by one of my Dads old mottos:

"Whatever you do do do do well." ;-)

Cheers, T i m

"stuart noble" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 12:55, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 12:36:55 +0000, dennis@home
wrote:

On 07/02/2016 11:37, T i m wrote:
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 10:42:39 -0000, "ARW"


8

If a second year electrical apprentice cannot wire up a switched fused
spur
then IMHO he is a thick ******* and should be getting ready to leave.

No problem with the logic or potential outcome (from a practical /
commercial pov) but is he really as you describe or simply not got a
good memory, isn't very good with hand skills, isn't very confident or
have 'other issues' (possibly a bad home life)?

A bad home doesn't stop you spending the two minutes it takes to learn
how to wire a fused spur.

No, but it might distract you in general for learning about stuff in
general. How long was the lad given to do what was required? How many
had he done before, especially outside the classroom? How was his
confidence being affected by his surroundings at the time? I'm not
making excuses for anyone, I'm just suggesting we aren't all the same
hand can have our own issues.

And it's not *just* about that one instance, it can affect everything
you try to do.

When I was 16 I extended some SWA that fed power to a small shed (for
just a light and lawnmower) out to also feed a pond pump [1] for a
family friend.

As it happened I was doing electrical engineering at college and
looked forward to that afternoon each week as much as I did the car
repair, welding, fabrication and catering classes. I was good at all
of them (in comparison etc) because I was interested, could absorb
information (because I was interested and wasn't distracted), good
with my hands and (luckily) didn't have anything else to worry about
at the time.

Cheers, T i m

[1] 40+ years later and the feed is still working (even if she's had a
few pumps along the way). ;-)



And if your forte is nicking cars, make sure you're the best bloody car
thief there's ever been.

Impossible for the worst of the dregs to be the best at anything.

"T i m" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:41:31 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

snip

Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you
if
you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

And you probably can't just leave them to do basic stuff as you
probably have a duty of care?

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever met.
In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were offered
a
job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial (his first
day
with me).

Daughter has seen new (and agency) people last just the morning.

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

I wonder if they are 'getting worse' at your sort of work ... or any
skilled trade for that matter?

Worse at everything IMHO. And that includes manners and social graces in
most cases.

HOWEVER - I would like to point out (and I am proud to say) that the no 3
apprentice I mentioned recently got a phone call from a customer to the
office saying what a charming well mannered young man he was. I only left
him alone with her for 15 minutes in the garage fixing a light!

From what I have seen there seems to be a new breed who think it's
perfectly normal / reasonable to be able to earn a fortune by being a
nobody on TV, or being able to sing or kick a ball and be happy to do
so rather than actually doing something 'useful'?

They do not live in the real world.

Have you ever had a heart_to_heart with these failing apprentices to
find out what they would really want to do (if anything)?

They need to grow up and stop being breast fed.


--
Adam

On 07/02/2016 17:41, ARW wrote:
"GB" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 14:02, Fredxxx wrote:

What happens next? He fails his exams a couple of times, and then he
gets thrown out?

College have said that he is failing. And the answer to your
question is
yes.

If it is that obvious at the outset why bother with him?

The only reason I can think of is a very low minimum wage for the first
year and negligible labour cost to the company.

At the expense of the time of a skilled electrician to supervise him,
though.


Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you
if you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever
met. In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were
offered a job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial
(his first day with me).

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

I think you're also getting older and grumpier every year! :-)

Weren't you an apprentice once?

"Fredxxx" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 17:41, ARW wrote:
"GB" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 14:02, Fredxxx wrote:

What happens next? He fails his exams a couple of times, and then he
gets thrown out?

College have said that he is failing. And the answer to your
question is
yes.

If it is that obvious at the outset why bother with him?

The only reason I can think of is a very low minimum wage for the first
year and negligible labour cost to the company.

At the expense of the time of a skilled electrician to supervise him,
though.


Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you
if you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever
met. In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were
offered a job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial
(his first day with me).

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

I think you're also getting older and grumpier every year! :-)

Weren't you an apprentice once?


It's the appentices that make me grumpy:-).



--
Adam

"T i m" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 10:34:31 +0000, stuart noble
wrote:

snip

It would seem to come under the heading of common sense I agree, but
I've known plenty of clever people who were decidedly deficient in that
area

And he may not have ever seen a 'PortaLoo' before ... or knows he was
working with a jokey person who might have been having a laugh with
him (like people who wind the windows down on the cars and say 'air
conditioning').

I often amazes us (inc our 25yr old daughter) just how little exposure
to the real / outside world many of today's 'youth' have had.

Years ago we went out for the day with daughter and her bf (at the
time) and took our inflatable dinghy up the estuary on the outboard.
He was quite uneasy to start with because he had never been in a boat
before. It also turned out he'd never flown a power kite before


I don't even know what a power kite is

why might you assume that everyone knows how to fly one?

tim

"T i m" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 10:42:39 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

snip

I'd go with 'doesn't seem to be cut out for electrical engineering or
installation' but I'm not sure 'thick' is necessarily fair.

I'm not sure you should label anyone such for not say having the same
skills as you, the appropriate interest or even attitude. They could
be called 'short sighted' if they were complaining about having to
take their turn making the tea or not putting in the effort when they
had the skills but if they are simply lacking in intellect or hand-eye
coordination I'm not sure 'thick' would be a PC word (FWTW etc).


PC words are not for me.

We know mate. ;-)

If a second year electrical apprentice cannot wire up a switched fused
spur
then IMHO he is a thick ******* and should be getting ready to leave.

No problem with the logic or potential outcome (from a practical /
commercial pov) but is he really as you describe or simply not got a
good memory, isn't very good with hand skills,

I have that problem.

I struggle with getting all the wires in the holes correct when working in
the confined space of a wall box - especially when you have the three cables
that are necessary for a spur.

So, I know how a fused spur should be wired but I have yet to master the
practicality of actually *how* you do it.

tim

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 19:21:02 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

snip

I wonder if they are 'getting worse' at your sort of work ... or any
skilled trade for that matter?

Worse at everything IMHO. And that includes manners and social graces in
most cases.

Ok.


HOWEVER - I would like to point out (and I am proud to say) that the no 3
apprentice I mentioned recently got a phone call from a customer to the
office saying what a charming well mannered young man he was. I only left
him alone with her for 15 minutes in the garage fixing a light!

Excellent, and hopefully that will encourage them to do more of the
same.

From what I have seen there seems to be a new breed who think it's
perfectly normal / reasonable to be able to earn a fortune by being a
nobody on TV, or being able to sing or kick a ball and be happy to do
so rather than actually doing something 'useful'?

They do not live in the real world.

Quite ... or is it doG forbid 'the new world'? shudder

Have you ever had a heart_to_heart with these failing apprentices to
find out what they would really want to do (if anything)?

They need to grow up and stop being breast fed.

Well quite, but what are the chances of them doing so if they are only
there because it was seen as the 'soft option'? They can't afford or
don't want to go to Uni, that can't get a job because they aren't
skilled and have no experience so their only hope is that they become
a rapper or footballer or someone they know / via the family gives
them a job somewhere?

And do you, as a 'skilled tradesman' (if that is a fair general
description?) believe that sorta game is 'respected' by people in the
Uk in general, in contrast with say the States where 'a drywaller' or
even ''a gardener is respected and certainly seen as being something
better than just a labourer?

I'm saying all this as someone who has turned their had to all sorts
of this sort of work over the years and whilst people will generally
pay what you ask (within reason), it seems as if they feel it's
un-justified?

Maybe they just don't understand what is involved, from doing the site
survey to working out the labour and material costs and submitting a
quote to collecting all the materials and workers and then doing the
actual job (after gaining and spending money on your own training /
knowledge and relevant qualifications, certification and insurance
etc)? shrug

A mate has run his own garage for more than 35 years and now offers to
show any new customers a slide-show on his PC of the stuff he has done
on their vehicle. Air filter before and after, drum brake before and
after etc. They go from 'just paying' pre the slide show to 'are you
sure that's enough' after. ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 19:51:52 -0000, "tim....."
wrote:

snip

No problem with the logic or potential outcome (from a practical /
commercial pov) but is he really as you describe or simply not got a
good memory, isn't very good with hand skills,

I have that problem.

I struggle with getting all the wires in the holes correct when working in
the confined space of a wall box - especially when you have the three cables
that are necessary for a spur.

Yes, it can involve a bit of care and planning ... making sure all the
cables are laying the right way, stripped back sufficiently and
trimmed to the right lengths to allow then to all lay comfortably when
you form the cables back into the box. I'm sure Adam will be able to
tell us how it should be done and if different, how it generally get's
done. ;-)

So, I know how a fused spur should be wired but I have yet to master the
practicality of actually *how* you do it.

If you are talking about the actual connection of the wires ... for me
it's like left and right ... I can't see how someone couldn't do it
but I'm sure the ease has something to do with the prep.

But then I've been 'playing with wires' since I was in primary school.
;-)

Cheers, T i m

On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 19:40:54 -0000, "tim....."
wrote:


"T i m" wrote in message
news
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 10:34:31 +0000, stuart noble
wrote:

snip

It would seem to come under the heading of common sense I agree, but
I've known plenty of clever people who were decidedly deficient in that
area

And he may not have ever seen a 'PortaLoo' before ... or knows he was
working with a jokey person who might have been having a laugh with
him (like people who wind the windows down on the cars and say 'air
conditioning').

I often amazes us (inc our 25yr old daughter) just how little exposure
to the real / outside world many of today's 'youth' have had.

Years ago we went out for the day with daughter and her bf (at the
time) and took our inflatable dinghy up the estuary on the outboard.
He was quite uneasy to start with because he had never been in a boat
before. It also turned out he'd never flown a power kite before


I don't even know what a power kite is

Well, quite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPUnTiASqjM

I've flown a stack of 12 of these at a kite festival years and years
ago:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lv04Iu56Ub4

why might you assume that everyone knows how to fly one?

I don't ... (or even know what they are), but that was just one
example of the 'worldly things' some people might be exposed to and
all of it would add to their general (worldly) knowledge.

Flying a power kite (for example) would also teach you (even
subconsciously) about aerodynamics, the power available from the wind,
remote control etc etc. When you know how hard a kite can pull you
might then think 'I wonder what would happen if I was on a surf board
or a land buggy ...' ;-)

Cheers, T i m

On 07/02/2016 19:21, ARW wrote:

They need to grow up and stop being breast fed.

These are all teenagers, aren't they? Teenage boys, mostly. So, not the
most mature bunch of people.

I also wonder whether your patience is getting thinner over the years,
perhaps as your memory of your own teenage mistakes fades, or simply
your patience has been worn away by generations of apprentices?

A bit like policemen getting younger, your apprentices are getting more
annoying?

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 19:21, ARW wrote:

They need to grow up and stop being breast fed.

These are all teenagers, aren't they? Teenage boys, mostly. So, not the
most mature bunch of people.


Let me tell you what happened to a friend of mine.

He started dating a MILF. The first night he stopped at her house her 18
year old son entered the bedroom at 2am and said "Mummy I have a tummy ache,
can I sleep in your bed"


--
Adam

On Sunday, 7 February 2016 19:34:17 UTC, ARW wrote:
It's the appentices that make me grumpy:-).

Is there any cure for a grumbling apprentice?

Owain

wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 7 February 2016 19:34:17 UTC, ARW wrote:
It's the appentices that make me grumpy:-).

Is there any cure for a grumbling apprentice?


The one that went to the police saying that I had assaulted him is also
failing at college.



--
Adam

On Fri, 05 Feb 2016 09:50:25 -0000, stuart noble wrote:

On 04/02/2016 22:20, ARW wrote:
"Big Les Wade" wrote in message
...
ARW posted
Working on an extension.

He said he needed a **** and asked where the toilet was. I replied in
the front garden. The front garden is not that big.

So he had a **** IN the front garden BEHIND the portaloo that he
totally failed to spot.


No problem. Just tell him to come into work at 6am in the morning, and
then change your mind and decide he doesn't need to, and don't bother
to text him to tell him so. Then congratulate yourself that your
manners are much better than his.

Do you have a reason for this rant?

I hope he becomes a top electrician. There's a difference between an
embarrassing mistake and being fundamentally useless.

Not seeing a portaloo is not an "embarrassing mistake", it shows you have no ****ing observational skills at all. How long before he wires something up inside out and kills himself?

--
I'm not a "troll", I'm an Agitation Engineer.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 10:34:31 -0000, stuart noble wrote:

On 05/02/2016 22:11, Rod Speed wrote:


stuart noble wrote
ARW posted
Working on an extension.

He said he needed a **** and asked where the toilet was. I replied in
the front garden. The front garden is not that big.

So he had a **** IN the front garden BEHIND the portaloo that he
totally failed to spot.

I hope he becomes a top electrician.

Tad unlikely when he does something as stupid as that.

There's a difference between an embarrassing mistake and being
fundamentally useless.

Personally I think its evidence that he is fundamentally
useless when not only didnt he notice the portaloo was
there when he showed up in the first place, he didnt
even notice it when Adam told him where it was.

Its not as if a portaloo is some tiny
thing that gets lost underneath stuff.

It would seem to come under the heading of common sense I agree, but
I've known plenty of clever people who were decidedly deficient in that
area

Without common sense you are not clever

--
A bird in the hand is always greener than the grass under the other guy's bushes.

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 12:36:41 -0000, T i m wrote:

On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 12:04:20 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

snip

All pretty std stuff for us, not always the case for less fortunate
families (for whatever reason).


OTOH it is also possible that he is as thick as **** and will never be an
electrician.

Devils advocate mode / on

Well, of course, but what is 'thickness'? Is it the ability (or not)
to work things out for yourself which will be based on what you have
already done / know plus what you can work out from the circumstances
at the time? He may (for example) be a much better musician or artist
than you could ever be and would it be fair to call you 'thick'
because of that?

If you can't do something as simple as find a toilet, then you're not cut out to do something more complicated like wiring something up.

--
Some people are alive only because it's illegal to kill them.

On 07/02/2016 21:44, ARW wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 7 February 2016 19:34:17 UTC, ARW wrote:
It's the appentices that make me grumpy:-).

Is there any cure for a grumbling apprentice?


The one that went to the police saying that I had assaulted him is also
failing at college.

PTSD from the assault?

On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:39:51 -0000, News wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good at one
specific thing?

Difficult. My ex SiL was thick as a plank when it came to anything
remotely practical. Even something as basic as everyday cooking, and
general household tasks. Utterly clueless yet, at the same time, seemed
to receive degrees like other people receive junk mail. She certainly
wasn't thick, but I would struggle to live with someone that
impractical.

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't mean you understand what you were taught.

--
Those who get too big for their britches will be exposed in the end.

On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 17:41:31 -0000, ARW wrote:

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 14:02, Fredxxx wrote:

What happens next? He fails his exams a couple of times, and then he
gets thrown out?

College have said that he is failing. And the answer to your question is
yes.

If it is that obvious at the outset why bother with him?

The only reason I can think of is a very low minimum wage for the first
year and negligible labour cost to the company.

At the expense of the time of a skilled electrician to supervise him,
though.


Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you if
you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever met.
In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were offered a
job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial (his first day
with me).

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

Why do you use apprentices at all? Is there a lack of skilled electricians?

--
What's the best form of birth control after 50?
Nudity.

On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 19:21:02 -0000, ARW wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:41:31 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

snip

Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you
if
you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

And you probably can't just leave them to do basic stuff as you
probably have a duty of care?

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever met.
In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were offered
a
job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial (his first
day
with me).

Daughter has seen new (and agency) people last just the morning.

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

I wonder if they are 'getting worse' at your sort of work ... or any
skilled trade for that matter?

Worse at everything IMHO. And that includes manners and social graces in
most cases.

HOWEVER - I would like to point out (and I am proud to say) that the no 3
apprentice I mentioned recently got a phone call from a customer to the
office saying what a charming well mannered young man he was. I only left
him alone with her for 15 minutes in the garage fixing a light!

Are you sure that's all they did in there?

--
Just remember...if the world didn't suck, we'd all fall off.

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:39:51 -0000, News
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good at one
specific thing?

Difficult. My ex SiL was thick as a plank when it came to anything
remotely practical. Even something as basic as everyday cooking, and
general household tasks. Utterly clueless yet, at the same time,
seemed to receive degrees like other people receive junk mail. She
certainly wasn't thick, but I would struggle to live with someone that
impractical.

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't mean
you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 21:54:31 -0000, charles wrote:

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:39:51 -0000, News
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good at one
specific thing?

Difficult. My ex SiL was thick as a plank when it came to anything
remotely practical. Even something as basic as everyday cooking, and
general household tasks. Utterly clueless yet, at the same time,
seemed to receive degrees like other people receive junk mail. She
certainly wasn't thick, but I would struggle to live with someone that
impractical.

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't mean
you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

Not really. Almost everything can be learnt off by heart. And mostly you forget it a month later. Understand it and it stays forever.

--
FREE TIBET!!!! (with purchase of 1 mainland china)

"GB" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 21:44, ARW wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 7 February 2016 19:34:17 UTC, ARW wrote:
It's the appentices that make me grumpy:-).

Is there any cure for a grumbling apprentice?


The one that went to the police saying that I had assaulted him is also
failing at college.

PTSD from the assault?


Thick lazy **** IMHO.

--
Adam

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 21:54:31 -0000, charles
wrote:

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:39:51 -0000, News
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good at
one specific thing?

Difficult. My ex SiL was thick as a plank when it came to anything
remotely practical. Even something as basic as everyday cooking,
and general household tasks. Utterly clueless yet, at the same
time, seemed to receive degrees like other people receive junk mail.
She certainly wasn't thick, but I would struggle to live with
someone that impractical.

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't
mean you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

Not really. Almost everything can be learnt off by heart. And mostly
you forget it a month later. Understand it and it stays forever.

reasoning is a "learn by heart" topic.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 22:11:17 -0000, charles wrote:

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 21:54:31 -0000, charles
wrote:

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:39:51 -0000, News
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good at
one specific thing?

Difficult. My ex SiL was thick as a plank when it came to anything
remotely practical. Even something as basic as everyday cooking,
and general household tasks. Utterly clueless yet, at the same
time, seemed to receive degrees like other people receive junk mail.
She certainly wasn't thick, but I would struggle to live with
someone that impractical.

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't
mean you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

Not really. Almost everything can be learnt off by heart. And mostly
you forget it a month later. Understand it and it stays forever.

reasoning is a "learn by heart" topic.

No it isn't. Learning by heart is learning without understanding it at all.

"This happened on this date in history."
"This chemical does this to this chemical."
Those are learning by heart.

"This happened because of this person disliking this person"
"This chemical interacts with the bonds in this chemical causing this to happen"
That's understanding.

--
I was explaining to my wife last night that when you die you get reincarnated but must come back as a different creature. She said I would like to come back as a cow. I said you're obviously not listening.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 13:03:21 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

"T i m" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 12:04:20 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

snip

All pretty std stuff for us, not always the case for less fortunate
families (for whatever reason).


OTOH it is also possible that he is as thick as **** and will never be
an
electrician.

Devils advocate mode / on

Well, of course, but what is 'thickness'? Is it the ability (or not)
to work things out for yourself which will be based on what you have
already done / know plus what you can work out from the circumstances
at the time? He may (for example) be a much better musician or artist
than you could ever be and would it be fair to call you 'thick'
because of that?


No.

Because music and art are not part of the syllabus of an apprentice
electricians course!

LOL, quite, but not really the point (on a human level). ;-)

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good at one
specific thing?

I'd go with 'doesn't seem to be cut out for electrical engineering or
installation' but I'm not sure 'thick' is necessarily fair.

I'm not sure you should label anyone such for not say having the same
skills as you, the appropriate interest or even attitude. They could
be called 'short sighted' if they were complaining about having to
take their turn making the tea or not putting in the effort when they
had the skills but if they are simply lacking in intellect or hand-eye
coordination I'm not sure 'thick' would be a PC word (FWTW etc).

I was an IT instructor for 7 years and one of my 'claims to fame' was
I never lost a delegate off any of my courses because they couldn't
keep up. This sometimes meant giving up some of my lunch break or
staying with them after hours but all of them eventually 'got it'.

But it makes no sense to operate like that with an electrical
apprentice who hasn't even managed to grasp something
as basic as a fused spur in more than a year. Makes a lot
more sense to point out to him that he's completely ****ing
useless as an electrician and to give him the bums rush right
out the door.

(Luckily) we aren't all the same and 'people' learn at different
speeds and in different ways. However, the difference between that
and your apprentices is that my delegates (or their employers) had
all paid good money to be there so they were generally 'interested'.

And this fool hasn't managed even something as basic as a fused
spur in more than a year. Makes no sense to waste any more time
on him.

Along your lines though, another of daughters ex's is a tutor at
the local Horticultural College and it sounds like he sees the sort
of range of behaviour you mentioned with his apprentices.

I wonder how many of them are trying to be round pegs in square holes
and might be better served doing something else (to everyone's benefit)?

Yeah, like cleaning dunnys.

"ARW" wrote in message
...
"GB" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 14:02, Fredxxx wrote:

What happens next? He fails his exams a couple of times, and then he
gets thrown out?

College have said that he is failing. And the answer to your question
is
yes.

If it is that obvious at the outset why bother with him?

The only reason I can think of is a very low minimum wage for the first
year and negligible labour cost to the company.

At the expense of the time of a skilled electrician to supervise him,
though.


Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you
if you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever met.
In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were offered
a job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial (his first
day with me).

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

I think that's unlikely. More likely its just a bad couple of years.

You did after all have that one that couldn’t show up at the
same time as the others for an interview because he was on
some outward bound type course too. How did he do ?

"T i m" wrote in message
news
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 17:41:31 -0000, "ARW"
wrote:

snip

Therein lies the problem. Jobs take longer if you have a newbie with you
if
you wish to train them and not just have them with you doing nothing.

And you probably can't just leave them to do basic stuff as you
probably have a duty of care?

The last two years lot of apprentices have been the worst I have ever met.
In fact only one of the 12 that had a trial with us this year were offered
a
job. I ****ed one off on the second day of his two week trial (his first
day
with me).

Daughter has seen new (and agency) people last just the morning.

School leavers are in general getting worse every year.

I wonder if they are 'getting worse' at your sort of work ... or any
skilled trade for that matter?

From what I have seen there seems to be a new breed who think it's
perfectly normal / reasonable to be able to earn a fortune by being a
nobody on TV, or being able to sing or kick a ball and be happy to do
so rather than actually doing something 'useful'?

Have you ever had a heart_to_heart with these failing apprentices
to find out what they would really want to do (if anything)?

I've found very few who even have a clue.

Not just kids either. I have had a hobby for getting on
for half a century now of talking to people about why
they chose to migrate, and how they ended up in the
job the ended up doing. Hardly any can ever give you
any real reason for either and don't appear to have
even considered either question.

One of the turks that has been out of school for a few
years now and has got married with an arraigned
marriage that almost all of them still do, to someone
back in turkey, again as almost all of them do, and
now has a 3 year old kid, its currently seriously
considering an electrical apprenticeship but doesn't
even have a clear idea of the difference between
an electrician and an electrical engineer. He hasn't
got a hope in hell of qualifying as an electrical
engineer. He might well be fine as an electrician.

But he's always had some pretty grand ideas,
even back in the last years in high school he
wanted to get into building houses as the
builder rather than as just a trades person.

Going to be interesting to watch where he
ends up. I've known him since he was about 5.
Currently does casual farming stuff like pruning
and grafting and stuff like that and picking and
tractor driving, moving bins etc.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 7 Feb 2016 14:15:26 +0000, stuart noble
wrote:

snip

And if your forte is nicking cars, make sure you're the best bloody car
thief there's ever been.

Quite. ;-)

And indeed that would be covered by one of my Dads old mottos:

"Whatever you do do do do well." ;-)

That's different to being the best tho.

"ARW" wrote in message
...
"GB" wrote in message
...
On 07/02/2016 19:21, ARW wrote:

They need to grow up and stop being breast fed.

These are all teenagers, aren't they? Teenage boys, mostly. So, not the
most mature bunch of people.


Let me tell you what happened to a friend of mine.

He started dating a MILF. The first night he stopped at her house her 18
year old son entered the bedroom at 2am and said "Mummy I have a tummy
ache, can I sleep in your bed"

And given he told you about that and you have never
had that happen yourself, it must be pretty uncommon
and you're turning into just another grumpy old fart,
just like the ancient romans and greeks who used to
sit around in their togas or whatever they wore and
howl about the kids of their day just like you do now |-)

"ARW" wrote in message
...
wrote in message
...
On Sunday, 7 February 2016 19:34:17 UTC, ARW wrote:
It's the appentices that make me grumpy:-).

Is there any cure for a grumbling apprentice?


The one that went to the police saying that I had assaulted him is also
failing at college.

That's because of the PTSD, silly.

"Mr Macaw" wrote in message news
On Sun, 07 Feb 2016 21:54:31 -0000, charles
wrote:

In article , Mr Macaw wrote:
On Sat, 06 Feb 2016 15:39:51 -0000, News
wrote:

In message , T i m
writes

So, no matter what else someone might be good at, they could be
considered 'thick' (in general) if they don't happen to be good at
one
specific thing?

Difficult. My ex SiL was thick as a plank when it came to anything
remotely practical. Even something as basic as everyday cooking, and
general household tasks. Utterly clueless yet, at the same time,
seemed to receive degrees like other people receive junk mail. She
certainly wasn't thick, but I would struggle to live with someone that
impractical.

Passing exams means you have a good short term memory. It doesn't mean
you understand what you were taught.

That depends on the type of questions you are asked.

Not really.

Yes, really.

Almost everything can be learnt off by heart.

It is perfectly possible to frame the question so that it isnt
possible answer the question if you have learned by heart.

And mostly you forget it a month later.

Not if you keep using it like the alphabet or with counting.

Understand it and it stays forever.

Not necessarily.