Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house. I've never seen that done in England even on developments of
several houses. Why? Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate? It
there some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?



--
DJC
(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)

DJC wrote

Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house.

I dont believe that and there is no evidence of that that I have ever seen.

I've never seen that done in England even on developments of several
houses. Why?

Because there really isn't much value in a crane with
most house construction or major repair to a house.

The only time one would have been any use with
my house was with the ****ing great 5x3x0.5" RHS
sections that form the entire top of the 100' long
N and S block walls. **** all houses have anything
like that and sheer legs and a boat winch worked
fine and the legs were used for the flat roof beams,
so the only cost was the boat winch, much cheaper
than the hire of a crane.

I need to put what the yanks call a swamp cooler
on the roof, about half the size of the smallest car,
but it was much cheaper to get use the ****ing
great forklift used down the railway goods yard
for 40' containers than a crane.

I did notice a ****ing great must have been
something like 100' crane down the cemetery
on the weekend, in the section of the cemetery
with the massive great marble headstones the
Italians are into but that is very rare indeed
there, so it must have been something unusual.

The builders normally put the swamp coolers
that almost all the houses have on the roof by
just having a couple of apes slide it up a ladder.

I have seen a crane used a bit when a massive
great tree is being cut down very close to a
house, but that is rare enough that I usually
stop and watch.

Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate?

More likely there isn't all that much use for a
crane with houses.

It there some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?

Unlikely given that they do get used for bigger buildings at times.

"Rod Speed" wrote in message
...
DJC wrote

Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house.

I don't believe that and there is no evidence of that that I have ever
seen.

I've never seen that done in England even on developments of several
houses. Why?

Because there really isn't much value in a crane with
most house construction or major repair to a house.

The only time one would have been any use with
my house was with the ****ing great 5x3x0.5" RHS
sections that form the entire top of the 100' long
N and S block walls. **** all houses have anything
like that and sheer legs and a boat winch worked
fine and the legs were used for the flat roof beams,
so the only cost was the boat winch, much cheaper
than the hire of a crane.

I need to put what the yanks call a swamp cooler
on the roof, about half the size of the smallest car,
but it was much cheaper to get use the ****ing
great forklift used down the railway goods yard
for 40' containers than a crane.

I did notice a ****ing great must have been
something like 100' crane down the cemetery
on the weekend, in the section of the cemetery
with the massive great marble headstones the
Italians are into but that is very rare indeed
there, so it must have been something unusual.

The builders normally put the swamp coolers
that almost all the houses have on the roof by
just having a couple of apes slide it up a ladder.

I have seen a crane used a bit when a massive
great tree is being cut down very close to a
house, but that is rare enough that I usually
stop and watch.

Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate?

More likely there isn't all that much use for a
crane with houses.

It there some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?

Unlikely given that they do get used for bigger buildings at times.

Well done Wodney, here, have this CDM Cadbury award.
At least you've seen a crane.

On Tuesday, 29 September 2015 22:41:53 UTC+1, DJC wrote:
Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house. I've never seen that done in England even on developments of
several houses. Why? Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate? It
there some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?



--
DJC
(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)

It's done occasionally here, especially when houses are close together/ high rise, access is bad and the site is small.
There are many benefits
Materials can be lifted straight off of delivery trucks onto scaffolding or set down anywhere on the site.
There no need for fork trucks ploughing around cutting up soft ground.
There's no need for concrete pumps as concrete can be shifted around too.

At my daughters new build which consists mainly of three storey buildings the only things craned up were the decorative chimneys which arrived assembled and were simply hauled up and installed on the the two nearest trusses to the gable ends. Everything else including trusses, roof tiles and blocks were lifted up with the permanently on site fork lift.

Richard

On 29/09/2015 23:39, Jonno wrote:
DJC scribbled


Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house. I've never seen that done in England even on developments of
several houses. Why? Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate? It
there some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?


Perhaps you could enlighten these foreign chappies in the use of
ladders, scaffolding and hods.
BTW - out in the far east they use bamboo scaffolding. That's another
technology that we don't use. I can't think why.

I have a Victorian book that details how to put up wooden scaffolding.

--
Colin Bignell

On 30/09/15 09:40, Nightjar cpb wrote:
On 29/09/2015 23:39, Jonno wrote:
DJC scribbled


Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house. I've never seen that done in England even on developments of
several houses. Why? Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate? It
there some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?


Perhaps you could enlighten these foreign chappies in the use of
ladders, scaffolding and hods.
BTW - out in the far east they use bamboo scaffolding. That's another
technology that we don't use. I can't think why.

I have a Victorian book that details how to put up wooden scaffolding.

A flat bed loaded with scaffold pulled in behind me at Tescos diesel pumps.

On the side it said
'Erection Specialists'. I remarked to the driver that at my age, that
was the sort of company I needed...

--
Global warming is the new Margaret Thatcher. There is no ill in the
world it's not directly responsible for.

In message , The Natural Philosopher
writes
On 30/09/15 09:40, Nightjar cpb wrote:
On 29/09/2015 23:39, Jonno wrote:
DJC scribbled


Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house. I've never seen that done in England even on developments of
several houses. Why? Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate? It
there some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?


Perhaps you could enlighten these foreign chappies in the use of
ladders, scaffolding and hods.
BTW - out in the far east they use bamboo scaffolding. That's another
technology that we don't use. I can't think why.

I have a Victorian book that details how to put up wooden scaffolding.

A flat bed loaded with scaffold pulled in behind me at Tescos diesel pumps.

On the side it said
'Erection Specialists'. I remarked to the driver that at my age, that
was the sort of company I needed...

Snappy response to the last cyclist I pulled up for cycling on a rural
footpath. Called a ****** I was able to respond *lucky me*:-)


--
Tim Lamb

Well, I have seen cranes topple over either because they are lifting too
much or that the outriggers are on soft ground or just not good enough.
Brian

--
From the Sofa of Brian Gaff Reply address is active
Remember, if you don't like where I post
or what I say, you don't have to
read my posts! :-)
"DJC" wrote in message ...
Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house. I've never seen that done in England even on developments of
several houses. Why? Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate? It there
some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?



--
DJC
(-?̿Ĺ̯-?̿ ̿)

"DJC" wrote in message ...
Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house. I've never seen that done in England even on developments of
several houses. Why? Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate? It there
some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?

I asked this exact same question several years ago

I got the answer(s) that builders do, in fact, use cranes here too, we just
hadn't noticed :-(

tim

Nightjar cpb wrote:
On 29/09/2015 23:39, Jonno wrote:
DJC scribbled
Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house. I've never seen that done in England even on developments of
several houses. Why? Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate? It
there some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?
Perhaps you could enlighten these foreign chappies in the use of
ladders, scaffolding and hods.
BTW - out in the far east they use bamboo scaffolding. That's another
technology that we don't use. I can't think why.

I have a Victorian book that details how to put up wooden scaffolding.

I've seen wooden scaffolding in use earlier this year. No idea why they
used wood rather than steel.

Mike

On Wed, 30 Sep 2015 14:11:53 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:



A flat bed loaded with scaffold pulled in behind me at Tescos diesel pumps.

On the side it said
'Erection Specialists'. I remarked to the driver that at my age, that
was the sort of company I needed...

Most scaffolding firms are aware of the double entendre nature of
their sign writing, another one seen sometimes is " Let us handle
your erection"

I used to like the slogan on some vehicles of a firm that set up
temporary traffic lights. " Jam makers since 1974*"

* Or what ever year it was

G.Harman

On 30/09/2015 18:25, Jonno wrote:
tim..... scribbled


"DJC" wrote in message ...
Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am familiar with) it appears
normal to set up a small crane when building or doing major repair to a
house. I've never seen that done in England even on developments of
several houses. Why? Surely builders here aren't that cheapskate? It there
some elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?

I asked this exact same question several years ago

I got the answer(s) that builders do, in fact, use cranes here too, we just
hadn't noticed :-(


I saw on this morning, lifting roof trusses onto a refurbished
farmhouse. it wasn't there this afternoon. Horses for courses and the
one being used was probably expensive.



Where I live I have seen that done using what I would call a largish
lorry crane which is only needed for that job.

I would assume that the OP is referring to smaller lightweight cranes
that are permanently on site.


--
Michael Chare

In article , Michael Chare
wrote:
On 30/09/2015 18:25, Jonno wrote:
tim..... scribbled


"DJC" wrote in message
...
[snip]
Abroad, (Italy, Switzerland, to name two I am
familiar with) it appears normal to set up a small
crane when building or doing major repair to a house.
I've never seen that done in England even on
developments of several houses. Why? Surely builders
here aren't that cheapskate? It there some
elfinsafety nonsense that gets in the way?

I asked this exact same question several years ago

I got the answer(s) that builders do, in fact, use
cranes here too, we just hadn't noticed :-(


I saw on this morning, lifting roof trusses onto a
refurbished farmhouse. it wasn't there this afternoon.
Horses for courses and the one being used was probably
expensive.



Where I live I have seen that done using what I would
call a largish lorry crane which is only needed for that
job.

I would assume that the OP is referring to smaller
lightweight cranes that are permanently on site.
In our area in SW France, they often seem to use the local
farm tractors with telescopic buckets for the roofing work.

John

--
John Mulrooney
NOTE Email address IS correct but might not be checked for a while.

Success is a journey, not a destination.

Michael Chare wrote:

Where I live I have seen that done using what I would call a largish
lorry crane which is only needed for that job.

Many UK building sites appear to use telehandlers for day to day
lifting, with mobile telescopic cranes brought in for roof
trusses, as required.

I would assume that the OP is referring to smaller lightweight cranes
that are permanently on site.

Small self-erecting tower cranes are what I think they were
meaning, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZxcDmICweg
Quite interesting bits of kit.

I guess it all boils down to a mix of both tradition,
availability and economics.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

In message , news
writes
In article , Michael Chare
wrote:
Where I live I have seen that done using what I would
call a largish lorry crane which is only needed for that
job.

I would assume that the OP is referring to smaller
lightweight cranes that are permanently on site.
In our area in SW France, they often seem to use the local
farm tractors with telescopic buckets for the roofing work.

Elfin safely have prosecuted several farmers for doing just that in the
UK. You have to use a special safety cage mounted on the forks. Very
difficult to use one handed as the safety cage gets in the way:-(

--
Tim Lamb

On 01/10/15 17:17, Chris J Dixon wrote:
I would assume that the OP is referring to smaller lightweight cranes
that are permanently on site.
Small self-erecting tower cranes are what I think they were
meaning, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZxcDmICweg
Quite interesting bits of kit.

I guess it all boils down to a mix of both tradition,
availability and economics.


Yes, that's the sort of thing.


--
DJC
(–€Ì¿Ä¹Ì¯–€Ì¿ Ì¿)

"Chris J Dixon" wrote in message
...
Michael Chare wrote:

Where I live I have seen that done using what I would call a largish
lorry crane which is only needed for that job.

Many UK building sites appear to use telehandlers for day to day
lifting, with mobile telescopic cranes brought in for roof
trusses, as required.

I would assume that the OP is referring to smaller lightweight cranes
that are permanently on site.

Small self-erecting tower cranes are what I think they were
meaning, like this:

I doubt those are very common at all in the countrys he was talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZxcDmICweg
Quite interesting bits of kit.

Yeah, but I wouldn't want to be anywhere near one
of those when the average builder is driving it.

I guess it all boils down to a mix of both tradition,
availability and economics.

And I bet those aren't cheap to have onsite
all the time while a house is being built.

In message , "Nightjar
cpb" "insert my surname writes
On 29/09/2015 23:39, Jonno wrote:
BTW - out in the far east they use bamboo scaffolding. That's another
technology that we don't use. I can't think why.

I have a Victorian book that details how to put up wooden scaffolding.

I have a photo of our 1880s house being built, showing wooden
scaffolding and a long wooden ramp with guys pushing barrows up to the
first floor. Who needs cranes?
--
Graeme

In message , Chris J Dixon
writes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZxcDmICweg
Quite interesting bits of kit.

Interesting indeed. I could not see a counterweight, although there
must have been one.
--
Graeme

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , Chris J Dixon
writes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZxcDmICweg
Quite interesting bits of kit.

Interesting indeed.

Yeah, particularly the way it unfolds itself at the end.

I could not see a counterweight,

There wasn't one.

although there must have been one.

Nope, there's wire that replaces it instead.

News wrote:

In message , Chris J Dixon
writes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZxcDmICweg
Quite interesting bits of kit.

Interesting indeed. I could not see a counterweight, although there
must have been one.

They are hard to make out on the video, but there are a couple of
gray rectangular units.

Looking at the data sheet for a similar unit (M14)

http://www.manitowoccranes.com/en-GB...rrent-products

It is described as having 2 x 2450 kg permanent steel ballast.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

In message , Chris J Dixon
writes
Small self-erecting tower cranes are what I think they were
meaning, like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZxcDmICweg
Quite interesting bits of kit.

I guess it all boils down to a mix of both tradition,
availability and economics.


We used to see that sort of thing in Germany 40+ years ago, I never
worked out why they didn't catch on over here.

Adrian
--
To Reply :
replace "diy" with "news" and reverse the domain

If you are reading this from a web interface eg DIY Banter,
DIY Forum or Google Groups, please be aware this is NOT a forum, and
you are merely using a web portal to a USENET group. Many people block
posters coming from web portals due to perceieved SPAM or inaneness.
For a better method of access, please see:

http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Thu, 1 Oct 2015 20:52:05 +0100, Tim Lamb
wrote:

In message , news
writes
In article , Michael Chare
wrote:
Where I live I have seen that done using what I would
call a largish lorry crane which is only needed for that
job.

I would assume that the OP is referring to smaller
lightweight cranes that are permanently on site.
In our area in SW France, they often seem to use the local
farm tractors with telescopic buckets for the roofing work.

Elfin safely have prosecuted several farmers for doing just that in the
UK. You have to use a special safety cage mounted on the forks. Very
difficult to use one handed as the safety cage gets in the way:-(

You may not use a cage with a telehandler for planned work, only for
unexpected occurrences, even then the driver must stay in the cab of
the telehandler at all times a person is in the (approved) cage. The
person in the cage must be secured in a cage with a restraint that is
short enough to prevent his body falling out of the cage.

A Mobile Elevated Work Platform must have controls in the cage and
emergency controls that can take control from the ground. I'd love to
be able to use our JCB 535 as a MEWP but there doesn't seem to be a
way of doing this and staying within the working at height
regulations.

Telehandlers may lift building materials up to the work height, they
will still have to comply with LOLER.

AJH

On 02/10/2015 21:09, wrote:
You may not use a cage with a telehandler for planned work, only for
unexpected occurrences, even then the driver must stay in the cab of
the telehandler at all times a person is in the (approved) cage. The
person in the cage must be secured in a cage with a restraint that is
short enough to prevent his body falling out of the cage.

Couple of people died in Ireland recently from that didn't they? Cage
fell in the water, they couldn't release themselves.

In message , Rod Speed
writes
"News" wrote in message
...

I could not see a counterweight,

There wasn't one.

although there must have been one.

Nope, there's wire that replaces it instead.

I can see the wire, but that is attached to the trailer? Surely a hefty
weight like a pallet of blocks, taken to the far end of the boom, is
going to cause the whole thing to topple over? Well, apparently not, as
it seems to be working.

--
Graeme

In message , Chris J Dixon
writes
News wrote:

Interesting indeed. I could not see a counterweight, although there
must have been one.

They are hard to make out on the video, but there are a couple of
gray rectangular units.

Yes, I saw those. It just looked as though, with a weight at the far
end of the jib, it would be fairly unstable. Apparently not, as it
seems to work.My only practical experience of such things is building
Meccano cranes years ago :-)

--
Graeme

Clive George wrote:

On 02/10/2015 21:09, wrote:
You may not use a cage with a telehandler for planned work, only for
unexpected occurrences, even then the driver must stay in the cab of
the telehandler at all times a person is in the (approved) cage. The
person in the cage must be secured in a cage with a restraint that is
short enough to prevent his body falling out of the cage.

Couple of people died in Ireland recently from that didn't they? Cage
fell in the water, they couldn't release themselves.

They failed to appreciate the guidance that, over water,
harnesses should not be worn.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Plant amazing Acers.

On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 09:17:39 +0100, Chris J Dixon
wrote:


They failed to appreciate the guidance that, over water,
harnesses should not be worn.

Chris

Yes that's correct and in that case a buoyancy aid should be used. I
suppose the theory is that hitting deep water is less of an evil than
hitting solid ground.

Actually a farmer was fined within the last week for using a pallet
fork mounted cage which slid off the tines with two men who fell three
metres and sustained broken bones, that's only 1 metre above the lower
limit for the working at height regulations I think.

I actually walked off site last week when the health and safety
manager refused to allow me to use the MEWP to chemfix some loose
fixings for a horizontal pipe 4 metres above the ground, requiring me
to use a ladder footed by another employee instead, on the grounds I
could not prove my competency to use the MEWP. I had basic training
when I hired them in the past but no certificate and on flat ground
the MEWP was far and away the safest platform to work from.

AJH

On 03/10/2015 12:47, wrote:

I actually walked off site last week when the health and safety
manager refused to allow me to use the MEWP to chemfix some loose
fixings for a horizontal pipe 4 metres above the ground, requiring me
to use a ladder footed by another employee instead, on the grounds I
could not prove my competency to use the MEWP. I had basic training
when I hired them in the past but no certificate and on flat ground
the MEWP was far and away the safest platform to work from.

What was the ladder setup? Just the ladder with somebody standing at the
bottom, no belay, etc?

On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 13:58:26 +0100, Clive George
wrote:


What was the ladder setup? Just the ladder with somebody standing at the
bottom, no belay, etc?



Yes but I would have had to tie it off once at the top.

AJH

On 03/10/2015 17:42, wrote:
On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 13:58:26 +0100, Clive George
wrote:


What was the ladder setup? Just the ladder with somebody standing at the
bottom, no belay, etc?

Yes but I would have had to tie it off once at the top.

Get the certificate for the MEWP :-)

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/s...opics/mewp.htm

hints that they're enough of a problem that in a work environment some
training is probably appropriate, and a certificate is probably the only
way you can prove that.

I don't like being up ladders with no backup. For 4m up (feet 4m above
ground) I'd be using a rope and harness.

On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 18:11:12 +0100, Clive George
wrote:

On 03/10/2015 17:42, wrote:
On Sat, 03 Oct 2015 13:58:26 +0100, Clive George
wrote:


What was the ladder setup? Just the ladder with somebody standing at the
bottom, no belay, etc?

Yes but I would have had to tie it off once at the top.

Get the certificate for the MEWP :-)

Did that on Wednesday NPTC CS47 which should cover me for other tasks
using a MEWP.

http://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/s...opics/mewp.htm

hints that they're enough of a problem that in a work environment some
training is probably appropriate, and a certificate is probably the only
way you can prove that.

I had already had very similar tracing in the past, just not had a
certificate that my competency had been assessed.

I don't like being up ladders with no backup. For 4m up (feet 4m above
ground) I'd be using a rope and harness.

I'm used, albeit long ago, to working at height with a rope and
harness, never did like using ladders but I'm too old to want to haul
myself up nowadays.

I'd quite like the idea of going up in a MEWP and then transferring
into rope and harness to work but that seems to go against the rule of
staying in the basket.

AJH

"News" wrote in message
...
In message , Rod Speed
writes
"News" wrote in message
...

I could not see a counterweight,

There wasn't one.

although there must have been one.

Nope, there's wire that replaces it instead.

I can see the wire, but that is attached to the trailer?

The diagram at the bottom of the control box shows that it is.

Surely a hefty weight like a pallet of blocks, taken to the far end of the
boom, is going to cause the whole thing to topple over?

They never did take it that far away from the trailer along the boom.

Well, apparently not, as it seems to be working.

Yeah, its not clear what it does about stopping the
load from getting too far away from the trailer so
it doesn't topple over. Wouldn't be hard to do that
with load cells.