I want to lay mains, Alarm, CCTV and Network (CAT5) from my house to the top
of the garden (to the garages)

The CCTV part, initially was going to be 6 lengths of RG59, however I have
heard you can run CCTV over UTP?
Can I - would be a lot cheaper on the cable if I can!
If I can, can I run four cameras down one four pair cable?

When I bury this lot in the ground, I presume I will need at least two
pipes - one for the mains, and one for the rest?
Or can I shove it all down one pipe?

If I do, as I expect, need two pipes, how far apart should they be in the
ground?
(I dont fancy digging a really wide trench!!)

Thanks!

Sparks...

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:54:39 -0000, "Sparks" wrote:

I want to lay mains, Alarm, CCTV and Network (CAT5) from my house to the top
of the garden (to the garages)

The CCTV part, initially was going to be 6 lengths of RG59, however I have
heard you can run CCTV over UTP?

There are a few ways to do it:

- Media convertors. THese may make the exercise more expensive that
the cable.

- Network cameras

- Standard cameras connected to old PC in garage run as capture server

With the second two, the sources are then effectively run over
ethernet. Viability depends on what you want and already have,

Can I - would be a lot cheaper on the cable if I can!
If I can, can I run four cameras down one four pair cable?

When I bury this lot in the ground, I presume I will need at least two
pipes - one for the mains, and one for the rest?
Or can I shove it all down one pipe?

Definitely not. The mains should be in any case in SWA cable
buried to 450mm and separate from the pipe containing the other stuff.
I don't believe there is a specific rule on this, but 150mm or more
should be OK.


If I do, as I expect, need two pipes, how far apart should they be in the
ground?
(I dont fancy digging a really wide trench!!)

Thanks!

Sparks...


..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

"Sparks" wrote in message
.. .
I want to lay mains, Alarm, CCTV and Network (CAT5) from my house to the
top
of the garden (to the garages)

The CCTV part, initially was going to be 6 lengths of RG59, however I have
heard you can run CCTV over UTP?
Can I - would be a lot cheaper on the cable if I can!
If I can, can I run four cameras down one four pair cable?

When I bury this lot in the ground, I presume I will need at least two
pipes - one for the mains, and one for the rest?
Or can I shove it all down one pipe?

If I do, as I expect, need two pipes, how far apart should they be in the
ground?
(I dont fancy digging a really wide trench!!)

Thanks!

Sparks...



Mains would be wire armoured cable I take it (?). If so, then spacing
between the alarm signal wires and the power cable wouldn't really matter.
You will need foil sheilded multi-core cable for under the ground anyway in
this situation.

CCTv would need to be tested for ground loop potential before you go with
UTP transmission, so the RG59 is the best option when in doubt. UTP can
drag interference into the system, in the form of ghosting over the images,
and this can be prevented by using ground loop filters at the ends of the
UTP, but that also builds up the cost of the system. Stick with the bundled
RG59 idea, is my advice.

Alarm wiring needs to be taken in the form of a node, which means taking a
heavier power pair to a node panel in the garage and then wiring back with
ordinary foil sheilded stranded cable to the control panel. This lets you
take any detectors to one power supply point, with battery back up, and then
all signalling is handled through the multi-core cable. It's voltage drop
you're looking out for here, so a power supply in the garage would work, but
make sure it has battery back up.

"Sparks" wrote in message
.. .
The CCTV part, initially was going to be 6 lengths of RG59, however I have
heard you can run CCTV over UTP?
Can I - would be a lot cheaper on the cable if I can!
If I can, can I run four cameras down one four pair cable?

I would stick with RG59 if I were you in this case, bound to give much
better results and be a lot easier in the long run. Cost should not be that
much more than Cat5 if you buy a drum rather than lengths.

If I do, as I expect, need two pipes, how far apart should they be in the
ground?
(I dont fancy digging a really wide trench!!)

Someone has already answered the 2 pipes question, so I won't duplicate, but
here is an idea to consider. The electric has to be buried to a minimum
depth as the other poster mentioned. But the cat5, alarm and RG59 are all
low voltage so there is nothing to stop you having a narrow trench, laying
the power at the correct depth, then laying the other cables a few inches
above the power. If someone puts a spade through your network/cctv you are
going to be upset, but no-one gets a shocking suprise.
(although, I am sure somone might be able to find a regulation against this,
like a really long spade that goes through your low voltage, then into the
mains, electrifies the cat5 and blows up your pc... but if you own spade
that long, then things stupid like that are bound to happen one day!)

Paul

"BigWallop" wrote in message
...

"Sparks" wrote in message
.. .
I want to lay mains, Alarm, CCTV and Network (CAT5) from my house to the
top
of the garden (to the garages)

The CCTV part, initially was going to be 6 lengths of RG59, however I
have
heard you can run CCTV over UTP?
Can I - would be a lot cheaper on the cable if I can!
If I can, can I run four cameras down one four pair cable?

When I bury this lot in the ground, I presume I will need at least two
pipes - one for the mains, and one for the rest?
Or can I shove it all down one pipe?

If I do, as I expect, need two pipes, how far apart should they be in
the
ground?
(I dont fancy digging a really wide trench!!)

Thanks!

Sparks...



Mains would be wire armoured cable I take it (?). If so, then spacing
between the alarm signal wires and the power cable wouldn't really matter.
You will need foil sheilded multi-core cable for under the ground anyway
in
this situation.

If the mains was in a pipe, would it need to be armoured?

CCTv would need to be tested for ground loop potential before you go with
UTP transmission, so the RG59 is the best option when in doubt. UTP can
drag interference into the system, in the form of ghosting over the
images,
and this can be prevented by using ground loop filters at the ends of the
UTP, but that also builds up the cost of the system. Stick with the
bundled
RG59 idea, is my advice.

I suppose it is cheap enough!

Alarm wiring needs to be taken in the form of a node, which means taking a
heavier power pair to a node panel in the garage and then wiring back with
ordinary foil sheilded stranded cable to the control panel. This lets you
take any detectors to one power supply point, with battery back up, and
then
all signalling is handled through the multi-core cable. It's voltage drop
you're looking out for here, so a power supply in the garage would work,
but
make sure it has battery back up.

The alarm panel I have is an old Scantronic 9500
It works with branches out of the panel, and these connect to LIM's
there is already some 8 core (not shielded) running in an old pipe (not by
me!)
I am using this, with a PSU in the garage for the various PIR's, along with
the hold off supply for the bell box

I am relaying all this, as I need to run more stuff anyway..

"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:54:39 -0000, "Sparks" wrote:

I want to lay mains, Alarm, CCTV and Network (CAT5) from my house to the
top
of the garden (to the garages)

The CCTV part, initially was going to be 6 lengths of RG59, however I
have
heard you can run CCTV over UTP?

There are a few ways to do it:

- Media converters. These may make the exercise more expensive that
the cable.

I have seen these, and also noticed the price (considering I will need 12!)
I was also dubious about any quality loss

- Network cameras

- Standard cameras connected to old PC in garage run as capture server

With the second two, the sources are then effectively run over
Ethernet. Viability depends on what you want and already have,

The need to connect to a multiplexer, so that's out!

Anyone know of a place to buy RG59 cheap!


Can I - would be a lot cheaper on the cable if I can!
If I can, can I run four cameras down one four pair cable?

When I bury this lot in the ground, I presume I will need at least two
pipes - one for the mains, and one for the rest?
Or can I shove it all down one pipe?

Definitely not. The mains should be in any case in SWA cable
buried to 450mm and separate from the pipe containing the other stuff.
I don't believe there is a specific rule on this, but 150mm or more
should be OK.

If the mains was in a pipe, would it need to be SWA?
I thought the pipe would be enough protection
(And the projected run will have a path laid on top anyway, so highly
unlikely anyone will be digging it up!



If I do, as I expect, need two pipes, how far apart should they be in the
ground?
(I don't fancy digging a really wide trench!!)

Thanks!

Sparks...


.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:54:39 -0000, "Sparks" wrote:

I want to lay mains, Alarm, CCTV and Network (CAT5) from my house to the top
of the garden (to the garages)

What sort of total load on the mains?

What, in terms of alarm? One detector? Two? Just contacts?

How many cameras?
Is the remainder of the system conventional, or is it a first camera?

CAT 5.....

The CCTV part, initially was going to be 6 lengths of RG59, however I have
heard you can run CCTV over UTP?

Why six lengths?

You *can* run video over UTP, subject to criteria being met, such as
ground looping.

There are other solutions too, dependant upon your answers above.

Can I - would be a lot cheaper on the cable if I can!

Don't know - depends is the only honest answer anyone can give you on
the info you've given so far.

If I can, can I run four cameras down one four pair cable?

What sort of distance - I don't know your garden, or where your garage
is :-)

When I bury this lot in the ground, I presume I will need at least two
pipes - one for the mains, and one for the rest?

Not strictly. Which is not the same as saying you can run both mains
and ELV in the same pipe.

You can, however, run armoured cable for your LV.

Or can I shove it all down one pipe?

Only if you want a headache.

If I do, as I expect, need two pipes, how far apart should they be in the
ground?
(I dont fancy digging a really wide trench!!)

Apart works up and down the way too!

Dig a trench deep enough for your armoured - three feet. Lay the
armoured and tape it.

Fill in the trench at least a foot. Run your pipe for the ELV.

Completely backfill the trench.

But more info if you want meaningful answers!


Thanks!

Sparks...

"Humbletarotstar" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 23:54:39 -0000, "Sparks" wrote:

I want to lay mains, Alarm, CCTV and Network (CAT5) from my house to the
top
of the garden (to the garages)

What sort of total load on the mains?

no more then 20A - Why does this matter, I didn't ask about cable ratings
here...

What, in terms of alarm? One detector? Two? Just contacts?

a LIM from a Scantronic 9500 (4 wires), with a local PSU for detectors, and
bell box hold off
+ve trigger (1)
+ve for the strobe (1)


How many cameras?
Is the remainder of the system conventional, or is it a first camera?

4 cameras all connecting to an existing multipler in the house (I already
have three cameras connected to this via Co-Ax)

CAT 5.....

What about it?


The CCTV part, initially was going to be 6 lengths of RG59, however I
have
heard you can run CCTV over UTP?

Why six lengths?

4 cameras, one feed back for a monitor, and one spare - why do you ask?

You *can* run video over UTP, subject to criteria being met, such as
ground looping.

I tried connecting a camera directly to a pair in some CAT5e, and the
picture was not good, not awful, but Co-Ax was a lot better.

There are other solutions too, dependant upon your answers above.

Can I - would be a lot cheaper on the cable if I can!

Don't know - depends is the only honest answer anyone can give you on
the info you've given so far.

If I can, can I run four cameras down one four pair cable?

What sort of distance - I don't know your garden, or where your garage
is :-)

The cable from, from the multiplexer would be approbamatly 35 Meters

When I bury this lot in the ground, I presume I will need at least two
pipes - one for the mains, and one for the rest?

Not strictly. Which is not the same as saying you can run both mains
and ELV in the same pipe.

You can, however, run armoured cable for your LV.

Or can I shove it all down one pipe?

Only if you want a headache.

If I do, as I expect, need two pipes, how far apart should they be in the
ground?
(I dont fancy digging a really wide trench!!)

Apart works up and down the way too!

Dig a trench deep enough for your armoured - three feet. Lay the
armoured and tape it.

Fill in the trench at least a foot. Run your pipe for the ELV.

Completely backfill the trench.

But more info if you want meaningful answers!

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 01:03:10 -0000, "Sparks" wrote:

What sort of total load on the mains?

no more then 20A - Why does this matter, I didn't ask about cable ratings
here...

Coz you might get away with Hi-Tuf rather than SWA. And you will at
20A, but it'll need conduiting.

What, in terms of alarm? One detector? Two? Just contacts?

a LIM from a Scantronic 9500 (4 wires), with a local PSU for detectors, and
bell box hold off
+ve trigger (1)
+ve for the strobe (1)

How many cameras?
Is the remainder of the system conventional, or is it a first camera?

4 cameras all connecting to an existing multipler in the house (I already
have three cameras connected to this via Co-Ax)

I see.

CAT 5.....

What about it?

Loud thinking, about it.

I was thinking out whtehr or not CAT5 was viable for what you were
trying to achieve - but I'd say not based on what you want to do.....

The CCTV part, initially was going to be 6 lengths of RG59, however I
have
heard you can run CCTV over UTP?

Why six lengths?

4 cameras, one feed back for a monitor, and one spare - why do you ask?

.....unless money is not the object in this. IP cameras are an option
if money isn't an issue - either by means of a video server or using
IP Cams with built in servers. Axis Communications do a fairly basic
IP Camera for about £200 or so, but you'll be getting into thousands
if you go for a "decent" IP cam or video server.

I'd stick with co-ax.

You *can* run video over UTP, subject to criteria being met, such as
ground looping.

I tried connecting a camera directly to a pair in some CAT5e, and the
picture was not good, not awful, but Co-Ax was a lot better.

As for UTP, the least you'll need for acceptable quality is a UTP
launcher and the associated "other end". You can, of course, buy UTP
cameras....

There are other solutions too, dependant upon your answers above.

Can I - would be a lot cheaper on the cable if I can!

Don't know - depends is the only honest answer anyone can give you on
the info you've given so far.

If I can, can I run four cameras down one four pair cable?

What sort of distance - I don't know your garden, or where your garage
is :-)

The cable from, from the multiplexer would be approbamatly 35 Meters

Stick with the co-ax.

My own personal notion would be as I say below, running mains cable -
probably 4 core, 10mm SWA, at a depth of about 3 feet, backfilling
about a foot, then running co-ax in a conduit, backfilling about nine
more inches and then running alarm and CAT5 in conduit.

My own personal notion would be as I say below, running mains cable -
probably 4 core, 10mm SWA, at a depth of about 3 feet, backfilling
about a foot,

10mm! - thats capable of about 60A!

And why 4 core?

I was thinking 2.5mm (29A) 2 core

then running co-ax in a conduit, backfilling about nine
more inches and then running alarm and CAT5 in conduit.

You don't think the Coax, alarm, and network will be happy together then?
Is this because of the network - I could use STP?

Sparks...

On Wed, 26 Nov 2003 02:02:04 -0000, "Sparks" wrote:

My own personal notion would be as I say below, running mains cable -
probably 4 core, 10mm SWA, at a depth of about 3 feet, backfilling
about a foot,

10mm! - thats capable of about 60A!

In free air, yes.

And why 4 core?

Contingency.

I was thinking 2.5mm (29A) 2 core

and keeping the worms warm.

It would be underspecified, I think - not now, perhaps, but sometime
before you fancy digging up your garden again.

The cost differential would also argue for bigger cable.

then running co-ax in a conduit, backfilling about nine
more inches and then running alarm and CAT5 in conduit.

You don't think the Coax, alarm, and network will be happy together then?
Is this because of the network - I could use STP?

Its your preference, but mine would be to keep it separate.

I just have this strange passion for keeping video away from other
stuff where possible.

Don't know that it's necessary though.

Sparks...