On 15/12/2014 11:46, tony sayer wrote:
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"Sailor" wrote in message
ldhosting.com...
harryagain wrote


I had my lecci meter changed today. The electrician had come from a
house where he he'd refused to change the meter. He'd looked at the
circuits connected to it and discovered the T&E were lead sheathed.
It
appeared much of the house was the same.


Lead shielded cable has/had no earth wire.
So obviously didn't knowwhat he was talking about.
And might conceivably have been servicable.


You're talking ****e. If he'd touched the wiring and there had been any
kind of problem anytime afterwards, the meter man could be held
responsible.


Did he test the installation?
What readings did he get?
Why would he need to touch the lead sheathed cable to change a meter
anyway?
Did he take off any switches to check the insulation?

He was a lying/ignorant toad if he said lead shielded cable had an earth
wire.
Hence not to be trusted.



Bloody heck Harry!, if its anything lead sheathed now it'd be falling to
bits when touched!!...

Or in you mind did they make lead sheathed PVC cables:?..


No, it was rubber. Which might be OK in a suitable environment.
Not very likely though.
I have a rubber insulated extension lead that's thirty odd years old.
Perfect condition, outlasted several plastic ones.



Must be a very special rubber eh?....


Pond wiring is almost always in a rubber cable, it lasts longer and
stays flexible. TRS, tough rubber sheathed.

On 14/12/2014 18:09, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Robin
scribeth thus
at the Tool Fair in Esher in November I spooted screwdrivers with a
torgue setting. Presumablt to get the terminals properly tight.

Is this a new breed of electricians? I'd always assumed that they all
had bloody enormous tools and that the only torque setting they knew was
"just short of shearing".


Wots wrong wiv tighten, shear of the bolt and then back of half a turn/


Thats what me dad used to do with spitfire engines back in WW2, never
had any complaints..


Plastic deformation?

--
Roger Chapman

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 13:13:37 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

In article ,
Graham. wrote:
I regularly shorten extension leads at the plug end. The flex comes
with bootlace ferrules fitted and the terminal screws are always lose
due to the elasticity of the ferrules.

I've never, ever, seen this on a commercial extension lead.

It's badged Belin. We wouldn't have high expectations, but the public
might.

https://flic.kr/p/qqgfra

I could almost undo the terminals with my thumbnail, and certainly
could withdraw the wires after a quarter turn.
The screw head has made very little impression on the ferrule, they
just needed to give it more welly, but there has been no improvement
over several years of using them.

And yes, I did notice the lose strand from the neutral and the slight
nick live insulation.

Here is the other end of one I photographed some time ago, to
illustrate another failing.
Perhaps you can spot what was on my mind?



--

Graham.

%Profound_observation%

In article , Roger Chapman
scribeth thus
On 14/12/2014 18:09, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Robin
scribeth thus
at the Tool Fair in Esher in November I spooted screwdrivers with a
torgue setting. Presumablt to get the terminals properly tight.

Is this a new breed of electricians? I'd always assumed that they all
had bloody enormous tools and that the only torque setting they knew was
"just short of shearing".


Wots wrong wiv tighten, shear of the bolt and then back of half a turn/


Thats what me dad used to do with spitfire engines back in WW2, never
had any complaints..


Plastic deformation?


Err no!, pilots baling out over France or the channel somewhere;!...
--
Tony Sayer

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
wrote:

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"Sailor" wrote in message
orldhosting.com...
harryagain wrote


I had my lecci meter changed today. The electrician had come from
a house where he he'd refused to change the meter. He'd looked at
the circuits connected to it and discovered the T&E were lead
sheathed. It appeared much of the house was the same.


Lead shielded cable has/had no earth wire. So obviously didn't
knowwhat he was talking about. And might conceivably have been
servicable.


You're talking ****e. If he'd touched the wiring and there had been
any kind of problem anytime afterwards, the meter man could be held
responsible.


Did he test the installation? What readings did he get? Why would he
need to touch the lead sheathed cable to change a meter anyway? Did he
take off any switches to check the insulation?

He was a lying/ignorant toad if he said lead shielded cable had an
earth wire. Hence not to be trusted.



Bloody heck Harry!, if its anything lead sheathed now it'd be falling
to bits when touched!!...

Or in you mind did they make lead sheathed PVC cables:?..


No, it was rubber. Which might be OK in a suitable environment. Not very
likely though. I have a rubber insulated extension lead that's thirty odd
years old. Perfect condition, outlasted several plastic ones.

But lead sheathed cables must be a lot older than that - over 70 years
old,
at least.

It was last used in the early 60s ISTR
Then Tough Rubber sheathed.
Then PVC/polythene.
Quite a bit of overlap. Some people didn't trust new technology.

Before any of those as Vulcanised India Rubber, either in "capping and
casing" (wood) or "grip conduit". (metal)
Even put in ungeround in timber boxes filled with pitch.
I worked on plenty of that but never put any in.

And before THAT was gutta percha insulated, run like trolley wires with
ceramic cleats on the surface. Must have dated to Victorian times. Saw it a
couple of times.

Underground lead sheathed/steel armoured cable was still being use in the
80s.
I installed plenty of that too.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"Sailor" wrote in message
eworldhosting.com...
harryagain wrote


I had my lecci meter changed today. The electrician had come from a
house where he he'd refused to change the meter. He'd looked at
the
circuits connected to it and discovered the T&E were lead sheathed.
It
appeared much of the house was the same.


Lead shielded cable has/had no earth wire.
So obviously didn't knowwhat he was talking about.
And might conceivably have been servicable.


You're talking ****e. If he'd touched the wiring and there had been
any
kind of problem anytime afterwards, the meter man could be held
responsible.


Did he test the installation?
What readings did he get?
Why would he need to touch the lead sheathed cable to change a meter
anyway?
Did he take off any switches to check the insulation?

He was a lying/ignorant toad if he said lead shielded cable had an earth
wire.
Hence not to be trusted.



Bloody heck Harry!, if its anything lead sheathed now it'd be falling to
bits when touched!!...

Or in you mind did they make lead sheathed PVC cables:?..


No, it was rubber. Which might be OK in a suitable environment.
Not very likely though.
I have a rubber insulated extension lead that's thirty odd years old.
Perfect condition, outlasted several plastic ones.



Must be a very special rubber eh?....

I took plenty of lead sheathed out. (Valuable scrap with all that lead.!!!)
It only perished inside joint boxes/switches etc. where it was exposed.
Inside the lead sheath, it was always perfect.
Dunno why.

"mike" wrote in message
...
On Friday, December 12, 2014 12:38:18 PM UTC, Robin wrote:
LFB report in 2011 suggested main cause was poor connections to neutral
busbars. See
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org...ched-On-25.pdf

Included:

"While the main cause of fire within plastic consumer unit enclosures
is without doubt poor workmanship, the materials used in the
manufacture of such enclosures and possibly the type and
arrangement of the components are other factors that can't be
ignored. The increase in the number of terminations having only one
securing screw and an almost unanimous adoption of 'cage clamp'
type terminations are arguably a backward step in equipment design,
irrespective of whether they comply with current product standards."

and

"Five common brands of consumer unit were selected for the first
stage of the investigation. Initial tests showed that only two of the
five brands included flame retardant in the plastic enclosure material,
although there is no requirement in the applicable product standards
to do so."

If components and workmanship are substandard, isn't it the case that
replacing a combustible enclosure with a conductive enclosure will not
necessarily reduce deaths but change the cause from fire to electrocution?

There are very few deaths indeed due to electrocution with conductive CUs
and its completely trivial to earth those and avoid any risk of
electrocution
that way.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , harryagain
scribeth thus

"Sailor" wrote in message
eworldhosting.com...
harryagain wrote


I had my lecci meter changed today. The electrician had come from a
house where he he'd refused to change the meter. He'd looked at
the
circuits connected to it and discovered the T&E were lead sheathed.
It
appeared much of the house was the same.


Lead shielded cable has/had no earth wire.
So obviously didn't knowwhat he was talking about.
And might conceivably have been servicable.


You're talking ****e. If he'd touched the wiring and there had been
any
kind of problem anytime afterwards, the meter man could be held
responsible.


Did he test the installation?
What readings did he get?
Why would he need to touch the lead sheathed cable to change a meter
anyway?
Did he take off any switches to check the insulation?

He was a lying/ignorant toad if he said lead shielded cable had an earth
wire.
Hence not to be trusted.



Bloody heck Harry!, if its anything lead sheathed now it'd be falling to
bits when touched!!...

Or in you mind did they make lead sheathed PVC cables:?..


No, it was rubber. Which might be OK in a suitable environment.
Not very likely though.
I have a rubber insulated extension lead that's thirty odd years old.
Perfect condition, outlasted several plastic ones.



Must be a very special rubber eh?....

Nope, plenty of unused car tires last that long.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

It's rather like Kwikfit - be seen use a torque wrench and you can't
be sued for a wheel coming off. But has anyone ever seen them check
the torque wrench setting against a chart to make sure it is correct
for that particular car?

You'd think that they would only need to do that for very obscure cars.

If you Google, it's easy to find a chart of a maker's torque settings
for wheel nuts. Ford, for example, go from 90 to 200 lb.ft depending
on model - with just about everything inbetween.

Sure, but I meant that the common ones would surely stick in their heads
so you would only see them using the chart for the very obscure cars.

Not that I have ever seen them change the torque setting either.

Of course not.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Graham. wrote

I regularly shorten extension leads at the plug end. The flex
comes with bootlace ferrules fitted and the terminal screws
are always lose due to the elasticity of the ferrules.

I've never, ever, seen this on a commercial extension lead.

I've never seen anything on commercial leads, because they
are all moulded now and have been for decades now.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Graham. wrote

I regularly shorten extension leads at the plug end. The flex
comes with bootlace ferrules fitted and the terminal screws
are always lose due to the elasticity of the ferrules.

I've never, ever, seen this on a commercial extension lead.

I've never seen anything on commercial leads, because they
are all moulded now and have been for decades now.

Not in the UK. Things like IEC mains leads usually have a moulded on plug
- but things like extension leads often not.

--
*Is it true that cannibals don't eat clowns because they taste funny?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
"harryagain" writes:
I took plenty of lead sheathed out. (Valuable scrap with all that lead.!!!)
It only perished inside joint boxes/switches etc. where it was exposed.
Inside the lead sheath, it was always perfect.
Dunno why.

It's perished by tiny quantities of ozone in the atmosphere.
Inside the lead sheath, it's protected. Conversely, when exposed
near switch contacts, that's a disaster for rubber - even with
only the most occasional sparks, the resulting ozone rapidly
destroys rubber. Rubber could never be used in electro-mechanical
telephone exchanges because of the ozone generated by tiny sparks
in relay contacts.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Mon, 15 Dec 2014 17:53:20 -0000, harryagain wrote:

It only perished inside joint boxes/switches etc. where it was exposed.
Inside the lead sheath, it was always perfect.

Oxygen...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Graham. wrote

I regularly shorten extension leads at the plug end. The flex
comes with bootlace ferrules fitted and the terminal screws
are always lose due to the elasticity of the ferrules.

I've never, ever, seen this on a commercial extension lead.

I've never seen anything on commercial leads, because they
are all moulded now and have been for decades now.

Not in the UK.

Yeah, the British system with the fuse included in the plug top
never did make sense and is what prevents the use of moulded
plugs that have fixed the problem with them going bad over
time forever with cables that are made properly in the first place.

Things like IEC mains leads usually have a moulded
on plug - but things like extension leads often not.

All of ours do and it’s the only thing that makes any sense. The
place for the breaker is in what its plugged into, not the plug itself.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Yeah, the British system with the fuse included in the plug top
never did make sense and is what prevents the use of moulded
plugs that have fixed the problem with them going bad over
time forever with cables that are made properly in the first place.

It makes plenty sense. You've obviously got no experience of it.

Things like IEC mains leads usually have a moulded
on plug - but things like extension leads often not.

All of ours do and it’s the only thing that makes any sense. The
place for the breaker is in what its plugged into, not the plug itself.

Given damage to an appliance cord is common, you're talking ****e - as
usual. To protect that, you either have a fuse in the plug or use a
radial circuit with appropriate protection there. Meaning either a
massive CU, or restricting the number of outlets. In practice, both.



--
*There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Rod Speed wrote:


Yeah, the British system with the fuse included in the plug top
never did make sense and is what prevents the use of moulded
plugs that have fixed the problem with them going bad over
time forever with cables that are made properly in the first place.

All of ours do and it’s the only thing that makes any sense. The
place for the breaker is in what its plugged into, not the plug itself.

All US Xmas lights that I have seen have the fuse in the plug!

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Yeah, the British system with the fuse included in the plug top
never did make sense and is what prevents the use of moulded
plugs that have fixed the problem with them going bad over
time forever with cables that are made properly in the first place.

It makes plenty sense. You've obviously got no experience of it.

Things like IEC mains leads usually have a moulded
on plug - but things like extension leads often not.

All of ours do and it's the only thing that makes any sense. The
place for the breaker is in what its plugged into, not the plug itself.

Given damage to an appliance cord is common, you're talking ****e - as
usual. To protect that, you either have a fuse in the plug or use a
radial circuit with appropriate protection there. Meaning either a
massive CU, or restricting the number of outlets. In practice, both.



--
*There are two sides to every divorce: Yours and **** head's*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

I'd agree with Dave re the requirement for massive CUs on systems with no
plugtop fuses. We have regularly rented houses in France, and watched (in
newish houses) the number of MCBs and circuits going up over the years. Of
late I've seen two bank and (once) three bank CUs - with between 20 and 30
circuits for a 3 bed house. The much maligned 30A ring main and fused plug
system does get rid of a lot of this.

I'm certainly not one to think that "everything done here is the best and
only way" - but I do think that actually our electrical system is pretty
good in international comparisons.

Charles F


---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

On 2014-12-16, Charles F wrote:

I'd agree with Dave re the requirement for massive CUs on systems with no
plugtop fuses. We have regularly rented houses in France, and watched (in
newish houses) the number of MCBs and circuits going up over the years. Of
late I've seen two bank and (once) three bank CUs - with between 20 and 30
circuits for a 3 bed house. The much maligned 30A ring main and fused plug
system does get rid of a lot of this.

But you do get better discrimination with massive CUs, whereas a
nuisance trip in the UK cuts off half the sockets in the house.


I'm certainly not one to think that "everything done here is the best and
only way" - but I do think that actually our electrical system is pretty
good in international comparisons.

Yes.

In article ,
Charles F wrote:
I'm certainly not one to think that "everything done here is the best
and only way" - but I do think that actually our electrical system is
pretty good in international comparisons.



The UK final ring system offers real savings in installation costs and
time - even more so given the ever increasing need for outlets. Which was
and is exactly its purpose.

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Adam Funk wrote:
But you do get better discrimination with massive CUs, whereas a
nuisance trip in the UK cuts off half the sockets in the house.

Aren't you likely to get more 'nuisances' the more circuits you have?

--
*Avoid clichés like the plague. (They're old hat.) *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote:

Yeah, the British system with the fuse included in the plug top
never did make sense and is what prevents the use of moulded
plugs that have fixed the problem with them going bad over
time forever with cables that are made properly in the first place.

It makes plenty sense.

Like hell it does.

You've obviously got no experience of it.

You're face down in the mud, as always.

Things like IEC mains leads usually have a moulded
on plug - but things like extension leads often not.

All of ours do and it's the only thing that makes any sense. The
place for the breaker is in what its plugged into, not the plug itself.

Given damage to an appliance cord is common,

And is handled by the fuse that's behind what its plugged into, stupid.

you're talking ****e - as usual.

How odd that it works fine for everyone else.

To protect that, you either have a fuse in the plug or
use a radial circuit with appropriate protection there.

Wrong, as always.

Meaning either a massive CU,

Wrong, as always.

or restricting the number of outlets. In practice, both.

Wrong, as always.

Capitol wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Yeah, the British system with the fuse included in the plug top
never did make sense and is what prevents the use of moulded
plugs that have fixed the problem with them going bad over
time forever with cables that are made properly in the first place.

All of ours do and it’s the only thing that makes any sense. The
place for the breaker is in what its plugged into, not the plug itself.

All US Xmas lights that I have seen have the fuse in the plug!

Mad. Makes a lot more sense to have a breaker in the plug board.

Charles F wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

Yeah, the British system with the fuse included in the plug top
never did make sense and is what prevents the use of moulded
plugs that have fixed the problem with them going bad over
time forever with cables that are made properly in the first place.

It makes plenty sense. You've obviously got no experience of it.

Things like IEC mains leads usually have a moulded
on plug - but things like extension leads often not.

All of ours do and it's the only thing that makes any sense. The
place for the breaker is in what its plugged into, not the plug itself.

Given damage to an appliance cord is common, you're talking ****e
- as usual. To protect that, you either have a fuse in the plug or use
a radial circuit with appropriate protection there. Meaning either a
massive CU, or restricting the number of outlets. In practice, both.

I'd agree with Dave re the requirement for
massive CUs on systems with no plugtop fuses.

More fool you.

We have regularly rented houses in France, and watched (in
newish houses) the number of MCBs and circuits going up
over the years. Of late I've seen two bank and (once) three
bank CUs - with between 20 and 30 circuits for a 3 bed house.

I don't have anything like that in my 4 bed house and since
I did all the electrical work myself, its very generous indeed
with outlets.

The much maligned 30A ring main and fused
plug system does get rid of a lot of this.

It clearly wasn't necessary with mine.

I'm certainly not one to think that "everything done here
is the best and only way" - but I do think that actually our
electrical system is pretty good in international comparisons.

The obvious problem is that you can't use the MUCH more
reliable fully moulded and non openable plugs on everything
and end up with the original problem of manually terminated
wires in the fused plug top which is a hell of a maintenance
downside.

On 16/12/14 11:44, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2014-12-16, Charles F wrote:

I'd agree with Dave re the requirement for massive CUs on systems with no
plugtop fuses. We have regularly rented houses in France, and watched (in
newish houses) the number of MCBs and circuits going up over the years. Of
late I've seen two bank and (once) three bank CUs - with between 20 and 30
circuits for a 3 bed house. The much maligned 30A ring main and fused plug
system does get rid of a lot of this.

But you do get better discrimination with massive CUs, whereas a
nuisance trip in the UK cuts off half the sockets in the house.


I'm certainly not one to think that "everything done here is the best and
only way" - but I do think that actually our electrical system is pretty
good in international comparisons.

Yes.


Well, 1/4 in my case...

I like 32A rings. It means you can have a reasonable number of circuits
(like 3-4, not 10+) but if someone sticks 3 heaters on one circuit
randomly it is likely to cope.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Charles F wrote

I'm certainly not one to think that "everything done here
is the best and only way" - but I do think that actually our
electrical system is pretty good in international comparisons.

The UK final ring system offers real savings in installation costs and
time

You're welcome to do rings here, with no fuses in the plug tops.

- even more so given the ever increasing need for outlets.
Which was and is exactly its purpose.

See above.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Adam Funk wrote

But you do get better discrimination with massive CUs, whereas
a nuisance trip in the UK cuts off half the sockets in the house.

Aren't you likely to get more 'nuisances' the more circuits you have?

Nope, the number of nuisances is obviously determined
by the number of outlets per CU breaker.

And when you do get a trip, the more circuits you
have, the less that stops when the breaker trips too.

In article ,
Tim Watts writes:
On 16/12/14 11:44, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2014-12-16, Charles F wrote:

I'd agree with Dave re the requirement for massive CUs on systems with no
plugtop fuses. We have regularly rented houses in France, and watched (in
newish houses) the number of MCBs and circuits going up over the years. Of
late I've seen two bank and (once) three bank CUs - with between 20 and 30
circuits for a 3 bed house. The much maligned 30A ring main and fused plug
system does get rid of a lot of this.

But you do get better discrimination with massive CUs, whereas a
nuisance trip in the UK cuts off half the sockets in the house.


I'm certainly not one to think that "everything done here is the best and
only way" - but I do think that actually our electrical system is pretty
good in international comparisons.

Yes.


Well, 1/4 in my case...

I like 32A rings. It means you can have a reasonable number of circuits
(like 3-4, not 10+) but if someone sticks 3 heaters on one circuit
randomly it is likely to cope.

If someone sticks 3 powerful heaters on one circuit, they're going to
be getting very hot. That was the whole point of the ring - you are
not going to need more than 7kW within the area served by a ring,
regardless of the number of socket outlets and appliances doing that.
7+kW is going to make you uncomfortably hot.

The design scales very well - nowadays we have loads more appliances
and sockets than when rings were designed, but the design scales
perfectly to handle this without sprawling CU's/fuses, as the power
consumption is no higher (actually, it's lower since most houses now
have central heating, which was not the case in the late 1940's when
rings were used much more for heating).

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 2014-12-16, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Adam Funk wrote:
But you do get better discrimination with massive CUs, whereas a
nuisance trip in the UK cuts off half the sockets in the house.

Aren't you likely to get more 'nuisances' the more circuits you have?

It depends on the nuisance, I guess. In the American system, two
plug-in electric heaters on the same circuit will trip the 15 A fuse,
but I think those things are less common than they used to be. In the
British system, I think the problem is more likely to be tripping the
RCD (especially if it's shared over more than one MCB circuit) because
of the sum of slight leakages from the dozen appliances plugged into
the same ring.

On 2014-12-16, Tim Watts wrote:

On 16/12/14 11:44, Adam Funk wrote:
On 2014-12-16, Charles F wrote:

I'd agree with Dave re the requirement for massive CUs on systems with no
plugtop fuses. We have regularly rented houses in France, and watched (in
newish houses) the number of MCBs and circuits going up over the years. Of
late I've seen two bank and (once) three bank CUs - with between 20 and 30
circuits for a 3 bed house. The much maligned 30A ring main and fused plug
system does get rid of a lot of this.

But you do get better discrimination with massive CUs, whereas a
nuisance trip in the UK cuts off half the sockets in the house.


I'm certainly not one to think that "everything done here is the best and
only way" - but I do think that actually our electrical system is pretty
good in international comparisons.

Yes.


Well, 1/4 in my case...

I like 32A rings. It means you can have a reasonable number of circuits
(like 3-4, not 10+) but if someone sticks 3 heaters on one circuit
randomly it is likely to cope.

Yes, I agree. But from what I've seen it's still routine for that to
be 1/2 unless the customer insists on splitting the circuits up.

On 2014-12-13, Andy Burns wrote:

F Murtz wrote:

harryagain wrote:

Adam Funk wrote:

Don't spray the inside while it's on. ;-)

Why not? It's recommended for electrical contacts.

The propellant is flamable.

The product is, but the propellant is actually CO2.

Well, I just found it described as

Fireball, better distance than hairspray
Easy to use too much

in someone's table of spud gun propellant experiments.

http://www.aaroncake.net/spuds/boom.asp

But I'm not sure that list is 100% reliable.

On 16/12/2014 19:51, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

If someone sticks 3 powerful heaters on one circuit, they're going to
be getting very hot. That was the whole point of the ring - you are
not going to need more than 7kW within the area served by a ring,
regardless of the number of socket outlets and appliances doing that.
7+kW is going to make you uncomfortably hot.

If its -10C outside its going to take more than that to get my
conservatory to 22C.
I have a CH fed fan heater and a 5kW heat pump + a 20A spur so I can cope.

If I didn't have that then three or four heaters plugged into the mains
would be needed.

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
Given damage to an appliance cord is common,

And is handled by the fuse that's behind what its plugged into, stupid.

you're talking ****e - as usual.

How odd that it works fine for everyone else.

To protect that, you either have a fuse in the plug or
use a radial circuit with appropriate protection there.

Wrong, as always.

You clearly have a comprehension problem.

Meaning either a massive CU,

Wrong, as always.

or restricting the number of outlets. In practice, both.

Wrong, as always.

No matter how often you say wrong doesn't make you right.

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Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
The obvious problem is that you can't use the MUCH more
reliable fully moulded and non openable plugs on everything
and end up with the original problem of manually terminated
wires in the fused plug top which is a hell of a maintenance
downside.

I keep forgetting you come from a country with cheap and nasty plugs etc.

There is no difference in reliability between a decent well fitted 13 plug
and a moulded on type.

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Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
Adam Funk wrote:
It depends on the nuisance, I guess. In the American system, two
plug-in electric heaters on the same circuit will trip the 15 A fuse,
but I think those things are less common than they used to be. In the
British system, I think the problem is more likely to be tripping the
RCD (especially if it's shared over more than one MCB circuit) because
of the sum of slight leakages from the dozen appliances plugged into
the same ring.

I'd say if you suffer from nuisance RCD trips you need to investigate why.

Only 'nuisance' trips I get is when some bulbs fail and trip the
appropriate MCB - which didn't happen in fuse days.

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Dave Plowman London SW
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Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Dave Plowman (News) wrote

Given damage to an appliance cord is common,

And is handled by the fuse that's behind what its plugged into, stupid.

you're talking ****e - as usual.

How odd that it works fine for everyone else.

To protect that, you either have a fuse in the plug or
use a radial circuit with appropriate protection there.

Wrong, as always.

You clearly have a comprehension problem.

You never could bull**** your way out of a wet paper bag.

Meaning either a massive CU,

Wrong, as always.

or restricting the number of outlets. In practice, both.

Wrong, as always.

No matter how often you say wrong doesn't make you right.

I'm right anyway on all those points. The fuse doesn’t have to be
in the plug top to protect the cord and there is no massive CU
when rings arent used and rings work fine without fuses in the
plug tops anyway and there is no restriction on the number of
outlets either.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote
Rod Speed wrote

The obvious problem is that you can't use the MUCH more
reliable fully moulded and non openable plugs on everything
and end up with the original problem of manually terminated
wires in the fused plug top which is a hell of a maintenance
downside.

I keep forgetting you come from a
country with cheap and nasty plugs etc.

Nothing nasty about modern molded plugs that don’t have a fuse.

There is no difference in reliability between a
decent well fitted 13 plug and a moulded on type.

Wrong, as always. You never see the moulded
plug have to be reterminated as was just been
discussed with the fused plugs.

On Wednesday, December 17, 2014 2:16:12 AM UTC, Rod Speed wrote:
rings work fine without fuses in the
plug tops anyway

But would be rather pointless, as one of the reasons for the ring is to have circuit protection greater than that required for the appliances.

If you go back to 5A or 15A circuits to protect the appliances you might as well wire them as radials anyway.

Owain

On 2014-12-17, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Adam Funk wrote:
It depends on the nuisance, I guess. In the American system, two
plug-in electric heaters on the same circuit will trip the 15 A fuse,
but I think those things are less common than they used to be. In the
British system, I think the problem is more likely to be tripping the
RCD (especially if it's shared over more than one MCB circuit) because
of the sum of slight leakages from the dozen appliances plugged into
the same ring.

I'd say if you suffer from nuisance RCD trips you need to investigate why.

It's not a problem I have, but I've heard of it.

Only 'nuisance' trips I get is when some bulbs fail and trip the
appropriate MCB - which didn't happen in fuse days.

Use type C MCBs?

In article ,
Rod Speed wrote:
You never see the moulded
plug have to be reterminated as was just been
discussed with the fused plugs

I've seen many many leads with moulded on plugs where a conductor has
failed close to the plug, due to flexing.

You simply have no experience of failure modes. Just bull**** about such
things.

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Dave Plowman London SW
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In article ,
Adam Funk wrote:
I'd say if you suffer from nuisance RCD trips you need to investigate
why.

It's not a problem I have, but I've heard of it.

Well yes. Things with water heaters - like immersions and washing
machines - are quite a common device to go 'leaky'. However, if they are
leaky, it's a fault even if still working.

Only 'nuisance' trips I get is when some bulbs fail and trip the
appropriate MCB - which didn't happen in fuse days.

Use type C MCBs?

Not really worth it given the number of times it happens.

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Dave Plowman London SW
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