Since we've had the house, I've been aware that the ceramic tiles on the
kitchen floor were neither the best quality nor very well fixed, as one
or two sounded a bit hollow when tapped. No problem, as the master plan
says the room will be gutted and refurbed comprehensively, in time.

Today, I found a pair of tiles had lifted to form a ridge where they
join. OK, only a few mm but to do that, they had clearly lost all
adhesion. I have scraped the grout from their edges and removed some of
the tile cement beneath, so I could tape them back down for the moment,
as I'm severely short on time this weekend. A brief investigation shows
quite a few tiles in this area are loose, so maybe a square metre or so
will have to be taken up, cleaned and re-stuck.

These tiles are not new but are certainly not as old as the house and I
would estimate they are a decade or two old. They were undoubtedly laid
'professionally' (as in someone took cash to do it, not necessarily
someone who knew anything) on a floor described to me by a builder as
polished concrete, which seems quite robust (but who can tell?). The
adhesive looks more like mortar to me than anything I've used.

So, questions:
Why would this happen suddenly? It's not damp and there haven't been
any serious temperature changes, neither is it a part of the floor that
gets significant traffic. In other words, should I look for a cause or
just put it down as one of those things?

How much do I need to clean the tiles up before re-laying? Getting the
grout off is easy, as is removing the adhesive from the floor. Although
any big chunks of stuff can probably be flipped of their back sides, I'm
a bit reluctant to start bashing the tiles too hard to get all the
adhesive off them as they would be imposible to match, were I to break
one, and they're an odd size (probably 8 inches-ish square) to even
source a non-matching replacement, without cutting a larger one down.

Any thoughts gratefully accepted.

On 29/11/14 14:16, GMM wrote:

How much do I need to clean the tiles up before re-laying? Getting the
grout off is easy, as is removing the adhesive from the floor. Although
any big chunks of stuff can probably be flipped of their back sides, I'm
a bit reluctant to start bashing the tiles too hard to get all the
adhesive off them as they would be imposible to match, were I to break
one, and they're an odd size (probably 8 inches-ish square) to even
source a non-matching replacement, without cutting a larger one down.

Any thoughts gratefully accepted.

brick acid will get mortar odd if you use enough

Id say that the mortar bed was too thin and that's why they flipped up.
mechanical stress?

recommend ardurit rapid set for laying floor tiles


--
Everything you read in newspapers is absolutely true, except for the
rare story of which you happen to have first-hand knowledge. €“ Erwin Knoll

On 29/11/2014 14:21, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 29/11/14 14:16, GMM wrote:

How much do I need to clean the tiles up before re-laying? Getting the
grout off is easy, as is removing the adhesive from the floor. Although
any big chunks of stuff can probably be flipped of their back sides, I'm
a bit reluctant to start bashing the tiles too hard to get all the
adhesive off them as they would be imposible to match, were I to break
one, and they're an odd size (probably 8 inches-ish square) to even
source a non-matching replacement, without cutting a larger one down.

Any thoughts gratefully accepted.

brick acid will get mortar odd if you use enough

I was wondering about that. I've never had much luck with acid
penetrating far enough to do much good but it's easy enough to try.

Id say that the mortar bed was too thin and that's why they flipped up.
mechanical stress?

Certainly, two tiles rising against each other seems like mechanical
stress, but I can't work out how it would be imposed to squeeze them
together that way, at it would seem to require differential expansion of
the tiles or contraction of the floor. They have a fair grout line, but
the grout seems quite rigid.

recommend ardurit rapid set for laying floor tiles


I'll see if I can source some. It's not as readily available as Mapei
stuff (which probably means it does a better job!)

On 29/11/2014 14:16, GMM wrote:
Since we've had the house, I've been aware that the ceramic tiles on the
kitchen floor were neither the best quality nor very well fixed, as one
or two sounded a bit hollow when tapped. No problem, as the master plan
says the room will be gutted and refurbed comprehensively, in time.

Today, I found a pair of tiles had lifted to form a ridge where they
join. OK, only a few mm but to do that, they had clearly lost all
adhesion. I have scraped the grout from their edges and removed some of
the tile cement beneath, so I could tape them back down for the moment,
as I'm severely short on time this weekend. A brief investigation shows
quite a few tiles in this area are loose, so maybe a square metre or so
will have to be taken up, cleaned and re-stuck.

These tiles are not new but are certainly not as old as the house and I
would estimate they are a decade or two old. They were undoubtedly laid
'professionally' (as in someone took cash to do it, not necessarily
someone who knew anything) on a floor described to me by a builder as
polished concrete, which seems quite robust (but who can tell?). The
adhesive looks more like mortar to me than anything I've used.

So, questions:
Why would this happen suddenly? It's not damp and there haven't been
any serious temperature changes, neither is it a part of the floor that
gets significant traffic. In other words, should I look for a cause or
just put it down as one of those things?

How much do I need to clean the tiles up before re-laying? Getting the
grout off is easy, as is removing the adhesive from the floor. Although
any big chunks of stuff can probably be flipped of their back sides, I'm
a bit reluctant to start bashing the tiles too hard to get all the
adhesive off them as they would be imposible to match, were I to break
one, and they're an odd size (probably 8 inches-ish square) to even
source a non-matching replacement, without cutting a larger one down.

Any thoughts gratefully accepted.

Minimum clean off and a thin film of an MS polymer grab adhesive, Sicks
Like Sh*t or similar.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 29/11/2014 15:46, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/11/2014 14:16, GMM wrote:
Since we've had the house, I've been aware that the ceramic tiles on the
kitchen floor were neither the best quality nor very well fixed, as one
or two sounded a bit hollow when tapped. No problem, as the master plan
says the room will be gutted and refurbed comprehensively, in time.

Today, I found a pair of tiles had lifted to form a ridge where they
join. OK, only a few mm but to do that, they had clearly lost all
adhesion. I have scraped the grout from their edges and removed some of
the tile cement beneath, so I could tape them back down for the moment,
as I'm severely short on time this weekend. A brief investigation shows
quite a few tiles in this area are loose, so maybe a square metre or so
will have to be taken up, cleaned and re-stuck.

These tiles are not new but are certainly not as old as the house and I
would estimate they are a decade or two old. They were undoubtedly laid
'professionally' (as in someone took cash to do it, not necessarily
someone who knew anything) on a floor described to me by a builder as
polished concrete, which seems quite robust (but who can tell?). The
adhesive looks more like mortar to me than anything I've used.

So, questions:
Why would this happen suddenly? It's not damp and there haven't been
any serious temperature changes, neither is it a part of the floor that
gets significant traffic. In other words, should I look for a cause or
just put it down as one of those things?

How much do I need to clean the tiles up before re-laying? Getting the
grout off is easy, as is removing the adhesive from the floor. Although
any big chunks of stuff can probably be flipped of their back sides, I'm
a bit reluctant to start bashing the tiles too hard to get all the
adhesive off them as they would be imposible to match, were I to break
one, and they're an odd size (probably 8 inches-ish square) to even
source a non-matching replacement, without cutting a larger one down.

Any thoughts gratefully accepted.

Minimum clean off and a thin film of an MS polymer grab adhesive, Sicks
Like Sh*t or similar.

I've a feeling the 'clean off' is going to be the challenge here, having
had a little go with brick acid and got not very far.
Having taken another look at what's available and found a few examples
of this tile size, I'm starting to wonder whether I should work on the
principle of removing a rectangle of a few sq m, cleaning up the floor
(easy and reliable) and re-laying a contrasting tile in the middle.
Clearly that's a bigger job (but no cuts to be done) and it seems a pity
to do on a floor that will be replaced in due course anyway, but it's a
more predictable process and it would mean I could deal with the fact
that a couple of tiles have historic chips in them. I'm just wondering
which approach would involve the least swearing....

On 30/11/2014 10:18, GMM wrote:
On 29/11/2014 15:46, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/11/2014 14:16, GMM wrote:
Since we've had the house, I've been aware that the ceramic tiles on the
kitchen floor were neither the best quality nor very well fixed, as one
or two sounded a bit hollow when tapped. No problem, as the master plan
says the room will be gutted and refurbed comprehensively, in time.

Today, I found a pair of tiles had lifted to form a ridge where they
join. OK, only a few mm but to do that, they had clearly lost all
adhesion. I have scraped the grout from their edges and removed some of
the tile cement beneath, so I could tape them back down for the moment,
as I'm severely short on time this weekend. A brief investigation shows
quite a few tiles in this area are loose, so maybe a square metre or so
will have to be taken up, cleaned and re-stuck.

These tiles are not new but are certainly not as old as the house and I
would estimate they are a decade or two old. They were undoubtedly laid
'professionally' (as in someone took cash to do it, not necessarily
someone who knew anything) on a floor described to me by a builder as
polished concrete, which seems quite robust (but who can tell?). The
adhesive looks more like mortar to me than anything I've used.

So, questions:
Why would this happen suddenly? It's not damp and there haven't been
any serious temperature changes, neither is it a part of the floor that
gets significant traffic. In other words, should I look for a cause or
just put it down as one of those things?

How much do I need to clean the tiles up before re-laying? Getting the
grout off is easy, as is removing the adhesive from the floor. Although
any big chunks of stuff can probably be flipped of their back sides, I'm
a bit reluctant to start bashing the tiles too hard to get all the
adhesive off them as they would be imposible to match, were I to break
one, and they're an odd size (probably 8 inches-ish square) to even
source a non-matching replacement, without cutting a larger one down.

Any thoughts gratefully accepted.

Minimum clean off and a thin film of an MS polymer grab adhesive, Sicks
Like Sh*t or similar.

I've a feeling the 'clean off' is going to be the challenge here, having
had a little go with brick acid and got not very far.
Having taken another look at what's available and found a few examples
of this tile size, I'm starting to wonder whether I should work on the
principle of removing a rectangle of a few sq m, cleaning up the floor
(easy and reliable) and re-laying a contrasting tile in the middle.
Clearly that's a bigger job (but no cuts to be done) and it seems a pity
to do on a floor that will be replaced in due course anyway, but it's a
more predictable process and it would mean I could deal with the fact
that a couple of tiles have historic chips in them. I'm just wondering
which approach would involve the least swearing....

Soaking the tile overnight in detergent may soften the adhesive
sufficiently.

On 30/11/2014 10:18, GMM wrote:
On 29/11/2014 15:46, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/11/2014 14:16, GMM wrote:
Since we've had the house, I've been aware that the ceramic tiles on the
kitchen floor were neither the best quality nor very well fixed, as one
or two sounded a bit hollow when tapped. No problem, as the master plan
says the room will be gutted and refurbed comprehensively, in time.

Today, I found a pair of tiles had lifted to form a ridge where they
join. OK, only a few mm but to do that, they had clearly lost all
adhesion. I have scraped the grout from their edges and removed some of
the tile cement beneath, so I could tape them back down for the moment,
as I'm severely short on time this weekend. A brief investigation shows
quite a few tiles in this area are loose, so maybe a square metre or so
will have to be taken up, cleaned and re-stuck.

These tiles are not new but are certainly not as old as the house and I
would estimate they are a decade or two old. They were undoubtedly laid
'professionally' (as in someone took cash to do it, not necessarily
someone who knew anything) on a floor described to me by a builder as
polished concrete, which seems quite robust (but who can tell?). The
adhesive looks more like mortar to me than anything I've used.

So, questions:
Why would this happen suddenly? It's not damp and there haven't been
any serious temperature changes, neither is it a part of the floor that
gets significant traffic. In other words, should I look for a cause or
just put it down as one of those things?

How much do I need to clean the tiles up before re-laying? Getting the
grout off is easy, as is removing the adhesive from the floor. Although
any big chunks of stuff can probably be flipped of their back sides, I'm
a bit reluctant to start bashing the tiles too hard to get all the
adhesive off them as they would be imposible to match, were I to break
one, and they're an odd size (probably 8 inches-ish square) to even
source a non-matching replacement, without cutting a larger one down.

Any thoughts gratefully accepted.

Minimum clean off and a thin film of an MS polymer grab adhesive, Sicks
Like Sh*t or similar.

I've a feeling the 'clean off' is going to be the challenge here, having
had a little go with brick acid and got not very far.
Having taken another look at what's available and found a few examples
of this tile size, I'm starting to wonder whether I should work on the
principle of removing a rectangle of a few sq m, cleaning up the floor
(easy and reliable) and re-laying a contrasting tile in the middle.
Clearly that's a bigger job (but no cuts to be done) and it seems a pity
to do on a floor that will be replaced in due course anyway, but it's a
more predictable process and it would mean I could deal with the fact
that a couple of tiles have historic chips in them. I'm just wondering
which approach would involve the least swearing....

Just in case it's helpful to anyone:
On the advice of the blokey in my local prof tiling place, I tried
soaking in water. This seems to loosen the adhesive on these at least
as well as brick acid does, without the attendant hazards. It still
needs to be scraped and scrubbed off with a stiff brush, which takes a
good bit of elbow grease per tile, so it's a slow process, but will get
there in the end.

It has got me wondering whether the apparent lack of water resistance is
the root of the problem, if water can creep past the grout, since we mop
the floor regularly.

On 07/12/2014 12:27, GMM wrote:
On 30/11/2014 10:18, GMM wrote:
On 29/11/2014 15:46, The Medway Handyman wrote:
On 29/11/2014 14:16, GMM wrote:
Since we've had the house, I've been aware that the ceramic tiles on
the
kitchen floor were neither the best quality nor very well fixed, as one
or two sounded a bit hollow when tapped. No problem, as the master
plan
says the room will be gutted and refurbed comprehensively, in time.

Today, I found a pair of tiles had lifted to form a ridge where they
join. OK, only a few mm but to do that, they had clearly lost all
adhesion. I have scraped the grout from their edges and removed
some of
the tile cement beneath, so I could tape them back down for the moment,
as I'm severely short on time this weekend. A brief investigation
shows
quite a few tiles in this area are loose, so maybe a square metre or so
will have to be taken up, cleaned and re-stuck.

These tiles are not new but are certainly not as old as the house and I
would estimate they are a decade or two old. They were undoubtedly
laid
'professionally' (as in someone took cash to do it, not necessarily
someone who knew anything) on a floor described to me by a builder as
polished concrete, which seems quite robust (but who can tell?). The
adhesive looks more like mortar to me than anything I've used.

So, questions:
Why would this happen suddenly? It's not damp and there haven't been
any serious temperature changes, neither is it a part of the floor that
gets significant traffic. In other words, should I look for a cause or
just put it down as one of those things?

How much do I need to clean the tiles up before re-laying? Getting the
grout off is easy, as is removing the adhesive from the floor.
Although
any big chunks of stuff can probably be flipped of their back sides,
I'm
a bit reluctant to start bashing the tiles too hard to get all the
adhesive off them as they would be imposible to match, were I to break
one, and they're an odd size (probably 8 inches-ish square) to even
source a non-matching replacement, without cutting a larger one down.

Any thoughts gratefully accepted.

Minimum clean off and a thin film of an MS polymer grab adhesive, Sicks
Like Sh*t or similar.

I've a feeling the 'clean off' is going to be the challenge here, having
had a little go with brick acid and got not very far.
Having taken another look at what's available and found a few examples
of this tile size, I'm starting to wonder whether I should work on the
principle of removing a rectangle of a few sq m, cleaning up the floor
(easy and reliable) and re-laying a contrasting tile in the middle.
Clearly that's a bigger job (but no cuts to be done) and it seems a pity
to do on a floor that will be replaced in due course anyway, but it's a
more predictable process and it would mean I could deal with the fact
that a couple of tiles have historic chips in them. I'm just wondering
which approach would involve the least swearing....

Just in case it's helpful to anyone:
On the advice of the blokey in my local prof tiling place, I tried
soaking in water. This seems to loosen the adhesive on these at least
as well as brick acid does, without the attendant hazards. It still
needs to be scraped and scrubbed off with a stiff brush, which takes a
good bit of elbow grease per tile, so it's a slow process, but will get
there in the end.

It has got me wondering whether the apparent lack of water resistance is
the root of the problem, if water can creep past the grout, since we mop
the floor regularly.

I think maybe you've answered your own question there. Tile
adhesive/grout probably weakens slightly in prolonged contact with
water, but mopping is hardly that.