"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
The issue was with the word "fidelity" which you threw into the mix,
implying that jacks were no good in this regard, whereas Speakons were

Ok. I'll stick by that. Try measuring the resistance of a 1/4" jack
against something like a binding post. Especially a jack which has been
left in place for some time. Of course you will need specialist equipment
to do this. Now the OP clearly is keen on maintaining a decent damping
factor by using thick speaker cables - why would you spoil that with an
inadequate connector?


I would defy you to hear any difference at the sorts of power levels that
are likely to be used in any 'normal' living room. I don't care if the jack
had half an ohm of resistance, your Mk1 ear ain't gonna hear it, any more
than it would hear the difference between expensive and cheap cables, as
some would contend that they can ...



And it's not "some" musical instrument amps that use them. Pretty much
*every* musical instrument amp uses them for speaker connections. Plenty
of world-wide major manufacturers disagree with your analysis of the
validity of jacks for speaker connections, and I would trust their
opinion over yours every day, no matter that you are a TV sound man.

Perhaps you'd tell me what musical instrument amplifier has a speaker
system even vaguely approaching a decent Hi-Fi one? They don't. For
obvious reasons.


Boy oh boy, you do go round in circles. Ask one question, get an answer,
then take it back round in a big circle so you don't have to like that
answer ...



There is no need for these manufacturers to 'cut costs to a minimum' as
their products are neither cheap, nor for the most part cheaply made.
Your comment about the users getting confused with more than one type
of cable is rather pompous ...

It's a legacy connector which was first used on low powered poor quality
guitar amps. The fact it is still used for these does not mean it is the
best connector for the job.

But clearly, the manufacturers of this equipment - which these days is
neither low powered, nor poor quality - think it is, otherwise they would
have changed it for 'something better' (in your opinion) over the last 50 or
so years that it's been in use for this purpose. Just as a matter of
interest, today, I asked my PA man what his opinion of 1/4" jacks as speaker
connectors is. Now this is a guy who sells the stuff, rents the stuff, sets
up gigs with the stuff in everything from pubs to massive show venues, and
eats, drinks and sleeps PA. He is an expert in the practicalities of
speccing, and using PA. His answer ? That they are just fine. That there is
no problem with them, nor has there ever been. And his view of Speakons over
jacks ? They have some merit at very high power levels because in general,
they can take a heavier gauge of cable than a jack, and it is then an
advantage to have them lock in place because of the weight of that cable. At
lower power levels, he says, their only - that's *only* - advantage over
jacks is the fact that they *do* lock in place, and that sometimes in some
equipment configurations that is actually a disadvantage because if a lead
gets tripped over, it can pull a speaker down from a stack or a stand, or
tear the wire out of the plug. He said all of this with no prompting from
me. When he did ask me why I wanted to know, and I explained what you were
saying, he actually laughed.


I'll ask again. Have you ever seen an amp with any pretentions to being
'Hi-Fi' that uses them for speaker outputs? Have you ever wondered why if
they are so good?


No, I have never wondered why, because on hifi amps, they are fairly
impractical as they stick out a long way, but that doesn't mean that they
would not do the job perfectly adequately. If you take the trouble to look
into the specs of the humble 1/4" jack, you will find that it is rated to 15
amps, which is about the same as your beloved Speakon. And if jacks are such
crap, and Speakons are the dogs ******** and Neutrik are the best company
making them, all of which you contend, perhaps you would like to explain why
such a company would want to compromise such a perfect product, by putting a
jack socket up the centre of their connector ?

http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/sp...combo/nlj2md-h



And have you ever worked with musos on a gig? If they get the sound they
like from a particular combination they will want to stick with it
regardless. Even where there is lots of hum and buzz, for example. Mostly
down to the legacy of using unbalanced high impedance everything. The 1/4"
jack fits perfectly into that.

How little you know. Apart from the gentle warm hum of a valve amplifier, I
have never met any musician in the last 25 years who will tolerate a noisy
setup. The unbalanced inputs of guitar amps are not noisy, and if decent
quality cables are used between the instrument and the amplifier, hum pickup
is not a problem. Of course balanced is, on paper, a better system for
coupling signals over longer distances, I wouldn't dispute that, but that
doesn't alter the fact that a jack is a perfectly adequate connector for the
job of connecting a guitar to an amplifier, and is seen to be by every
manufacturer of guitars, and guitar amplifiers worldwide, on products
costing from a few hundreds of pounds, to more than you or I earn in a year.

Arfa


--
*If work is so terrific, how come they have to pay you to do it?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Johny B Good wrote:
As far as damping factor effects go, you could use 100 metre lengths
of the flimsiest of bell wire and make no discernable difference other
than maybe a 3 db or so drop in level. IOW, we'd be observing far more
serious changes before any changes of driver resonance damping could
become significant enough to warrant any concern.

I'm no 'oxygen free solid silver' speaker wire type - but can assure you
that introducing appreciable resistance to speaker wiring is easily heard.

Define 'appreciable'

Arfa


--
*Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
much different in that regard. They are still a small circular pin
contacting a flat, thin piece of spring steel.


Decent quality jacks actually
have quite large contact areas.

Do they?, anyone know just how much?...

I can't see how you could do an all round wrap like say on an XLR?

Or say not like on a Speakon ...

And whilst we're on connectors not intended for purposes, the XLR is a good
example of another signal connector that has been pressed into service as a
speaker connector.

Arfa



--
*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"dennis@home" wrote in message
eb.com...
On 26/03/2014 17:08, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article m,
dennis@home wrote:
Any connector is likely to only have point contact, maybe in several
places.

Only from Dennis. ;-)


So explain what is wrong with what I said.

There is nothing wrong with what you said. It is completely accurate. I too
would like to know what Dave finds wrong with it.

Arfa

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

Most connectors have a tiny contact area, and Speakons are actually not
that
much different in that regard. They are still a small circular pin
contacting a flat, thin piece of spring steel.


Decent quality jacks actually
have quite large contact areas.

Do they?, anyone know just how much?...

--
Tony Sayer




Well, Switchcraft for instance, manufacture jack plugs and sockets
specifically for loudspeaker use, which rather knocks on the head all of the
opinionated nonsense being spouted in this thread by some people, about them
not being suitable for the job.

Look at

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/309816.html

where it states quite clearly in the specs

"Plug is rated at 15A rms (maximum) for use with audio loudspeaker
applications"

So the contact area must be reasonably large. And if a well-respected
connector manufacturer like Switchcraft say that the 1/4" jack is good
enough as a speaker connector, then that's good enough for me, as I would
take what they say as a factual statement about one of their products, over
unsubstantiated opinion, all day every day ...

Arfa

On 26/03/2014 14:21, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Johny B Good wrote:
As far as damping factor effects go, you could use 100 metre lengths
of the flimsiest of bell wire and make no discernable difference other
than maybe a 3 db or so drop in level. IOW, we'd be observing far more
serious changes before any changes of driver resonance damping could
become significant enough to warrant any concern.

I'm no 'oxygen free solid silver' speaker wire type - but can assure you
that introducing appreciable resistance to speaker wiring is easily heard.

I can second that - friend's shiny expensive pioneer stereo (20 years
ago) came with somewhat thin speaker wire, and changing it to decent fat
stuff produced an obvious difference. Not in the "overtones of
strawberry with clearer nose separation" Russ-Andrews style, actually
obvious.

(bi-wiring OTOH...)

Bit snipped...

But clearly, the manufacturers of this equipment - which these days is
neither low powered, nor poor quality - think it is, otherwise they would
have changed it for 'something better' (in your opinion) over the last 50 or
so years that it's been in use for this purpose. Just as a matter of
interest, today, I asked my PA man what his opinion of 1/4" jacks as speaker
connectors is. Now this is a guy who sells the stuff, rents the stuff, sets
up gigs with the stuff in everything from pubs to massive show venues, and
eats, drinks and sleeps PA. He is an expert in the practicalities of
speccing, and using PA. His answer ? That they are just fine. That there is
no problem with them, nor has there ever been. And his view of Speakons over
jacks ? They have some merit at very high power levels because in general,
they can take a heavier gauge of cable than a jack, and it is then an
advantage to have them lock in place because of the weight of that cable. At
lower power levels, he says, their only - that's *only* - advantage over
jacks is the fact that they *do* lock in place, and that sometimes in some
equipment configurations that is actually a disadvantage because if a lead
gets tripped over, it can pull a speaker down from a stack or a stand, or
tear the wire out of the plug. He said all of this with no prompting from
me. When he did ask me why I wanted to know, and I explained what you were
saying, he actually laughed.


I'd expect he would. Seems to me that the muso industry is very, no
ultra conservative in its ways and outlook;!..


I'll ask again. Have you ever seen an amp with any pretentions to being
'Hi-Fi' that uses them for speaker outputs? Have you ever wondered why if
they are so good?


No, I have never wondered why, because on hifi amps, they are fairly
impractical as they stick out a long way, but that doesn't mean that they
would not do the job perfectly adequately. If you take the trouble to look
into the specs of the humble 1/4" jack, you will find that it is rated to 15
amps, which is about the same as your beloved Speakon. And if jacks are such
crap, and Speakons are the dogs ******** and Neutrik are the best company
making them, all of which you contend, perhaps you would like to explain why
such a company would want to compromise such a perfect product, by putting a
jack socket up the centre of their connector ?



http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/sp...ctors/speakon-
combo/nlj2md-h


Thats I reckon what you'd term a "legacy" capable device...



And have you ever worked with musos on a gig? If they get the sound they
like from a particular combination they will want to stick with it
regardless. Even where there is lots of hum and buzz, for example. Mostly
down to the legacy of using unbalanced high impedance everything. The 1/4"
jack fits perfectly into that.

How little you know. Apart from the gentle warm hum of a valve amplifier, I
have never met any musician in the last 25 years who will tolerate a noisy
setup. The unbalanced inputs of guitar amps are not noisy, and if decent
quality cables are used between the instrument and the amplifier, hum pickup
is not a problem. Of course balanced is, on paper, a better system for
coupling signals over longer distances, I wouldn't dispute that,


Plus all the other advantages..


but that
doesn't alter the fact that a jack is a perfectly adequate connector for the
job of connecting a guitar to an amplifier, and is seen to be by every
manufacturer of guitars, and guitar amplifiers worldwide, on products
costing from a few hundreds of pounds, to more than you or I earn in a year.


Yes it will work but I think if these days if you were starting from
scratch then something that bit better would come about. I'd bet that in
terms of contact resistance a phono plug has more contact area;!.

Could have been worse I suppose, it might have gone the way of the DIN
speaker connector.

Now that was an abortion .. if ever there was one;(..


--
Tony Sayer

In article , Arfa Daily
scribeth thus


"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

Most connectors have a tiny contact area, and Speakons are actually not
that
much different in that regard. They are still a small circular pin
contacting a flat, thin piece of spring steel.


Decent quality jacks actually
have quite large contact areas.

Do they?, anyone know just how much?...

--
Tony Sayer




Well, Switchcraft for instance, manufacture jack plugs and sockets
specifically for loudspeaker use, which rather knocks on the head all of the
opinionated nonsense being spouted in this thread by some people, about them
not being suitable for the job.

Look at

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/309816.html


Course for Pro and or road use robustness comes into it where plastic
bodied plugs aren't what I'd consider up to it;!..

where it states quite clearly in the specs

"Plug is rated at 15A rms (maximum) for use with audio loudspeaker
applications"



So the contact area must be reasonably large. And if a well-respected
connector manufacturer like Switchcraft say that the 1/4" jack is good
enough as a speaker connector, then that's good enough for me, as I would
take what they say as a factual statement about one of their products, over
unsubstantiated opinion, all day every day ...



Well they would say that .. wouldn't they;?...


I wonder what if you applied a music signal across that what the volts
drop would be compared to a number of other connectors?.


Or how they would manage with a continuous 15 amp RMS current compared
to other connectors.


One for some experimentation when I'm retired I expect..

Arfa




--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
Johny B Good wrote:
If it weren't for some really excruciating crossover filter impedance
excursions, you'd be hard pushed to distinguish between an amp with a
400:1 damping factor and one with a mere 40:1 damping factor, all else
being equal.

Peter Walker stated years ago in Quad handbooks that the loop resistance
of the cable and connectors to the speakers shouldn't exceed 10% of the
nominal speaker impedance. Removable connectors like a plug and socket
are always the weak link in a chain. And it's one thing checking brand new
connectors, but another measuring their actual performance after being
plugged up untouched for some time. And anyone who's ever used any type of
jack will know that their performance deteriorates under these conditions.
In other words they are designed for frequent removal and replacement to
keep them clean.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I would defy you to hear any difference at the sorts of power levels
that are likely to be used in any 'normal' living room. I don't care if
the jack had half an ohm of resistance, your Mk1 ear ain't gonna hear
it, any more than it would hear the difference between expensive and
cheap cables, as some would contend that they can ...

There is a big difference between an adequately specified speaker cable
and one which isn't. There is no point in 'bettering' adequate, though.
It's very possible you can't hear the effect of introducing resistance to
a speaker feed, or have equipment that simply doesn't show it. Just accept
that others can.

--
*Lawyers believe a man is innocent until proven broke.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I'm no 'oxygen free solid silver' speaker wire type - but can assure
you that introducing appreciable resistance to speaker wiring is
easily heard.

Define 'appreciable'

Introducing a 1/4" jack socket. ;-)

--
*War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
Well, Switchcraft for instance, manufacture jack plugs and sockets
specifically for loudspeaker use, which rather knocks on the head all of
the opinionated nonsense being spouted in this thread by some people,
about them not being suitable for the job.

You seem to have changed your tune. It's now that *some* specially made
1/4" jack connectors are suitable for speakers. Not what you said
initially.

That might be the case.

Personally, I dislike using the 'same' type of connector for a variety of
tasks. When there is no need and better alternatives available.

It also makes a nonsense of having jacks for both line level and speakers
on a PA setup if you have to have 'special' leads for the speakers. Why
not just use a decent made for the job connector/lead in the first place?

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:25:46 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

Bit snipped...

====even more snippage====

Yes it will work but I think if these days if you were starting from
scratch then something that bit better would come about. I'd bet that in
terms of contact resistance a phono plug has more contact area;!.

True but they'd need to be better engineered to achieve the required
consistency. All too often, I'd come across examples where the outer
ground return on the socket was sufficiently undersized to cause an
open circuit with properly sized plugs and vice versa on cheap plugs.


Could have been worse I suppose, it might have gone the way of the DIN
speaker connector.

Now that was an abortion .. if ever there was one;(..

[PG_Mode ON]

"It surely was, Tony... it surely was."

[PG_Mode OFF]
--
Regards, J B Good

On Thu, 27 Mar 2014 10:33:21 +0000, tony sayer
wrote:

In article , Arfa Daily
scribeth thus


"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

Most connectors have a tiny contact area, and Speakons are actually not
that
much different in that regard. They are still a small circular pin
contacting a flat, thin piece of spring steel.


Decent quality jacks actually
have quite large contact areas.

Do they?, anyone know just how much?...

--
Tony Sayer




Well, Switchcraft for instance, manufacture jack plugs and sockets
specifically for loudspeaker use, which rather knocks on the head all of the
opinionated nonsense being spouted in this thread by some people, about them
not being suitable for the job.

Look at

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/309816.html


Course for Pro and or road use robustness comes into it where plastic
bodied plugs aren't what I'd consider up to it;!..

where it states quite clearly in the specs

"Plug is rated at 15A rms (maximum) for use with audio loudspeaker
applications"



So the contact area must be reasonably large. And if a well-respected
connector manufacturer like Switchcraft say that the 1/4" jack is good
enough as a speaker connector, then that's good enough for me, as I would
take what they say as a factual statement about one of their products, over
unsubstantiated opinion, all day every day ...



Well they would say that .. wouldn't they;?...


I wonder what if you applied a music signal across that what the volts
drop would be compared to a number of other connectors?.


Or how they would manage with a continuous 15 amp RMS current compared
to other connectors.


One for some experimentation when I'm retired I expect..


I must admit, a 15A rating seems it might be overly optimistic for
most 1/4 inch jacks and plugs but it's certainly a credible figure if
both plug and jack are properly engineered.

However, this might be based on a short term duty cycle measured in
seconds rather than the hours used for 13A mains sockets which have a
similar contact area (but better heat dissipation).

Also, don't discount the effect of the square law current to power
relationship. Even with a 4 ohm speaker load, a test tone that
provides an rms current of 15A represents a continuous power output of
900W (for an 8 ohm speaker load, that becomes 1.8KW!).

I've seen references in this thread to the use of a quarter inch jack
plug being deemed acceptable in cases where the maximum rms ouput
powers are limited to sub 300W. That seems to have a 'sound' basis in
that 225W into 4 ohm speakers represents a mere 7.5A rms current
through the jack contacts. The same power level into an 8 ohm speaker
load reduces the amperage to just over 5A rms (or 7.5A peak).
--
Regards, J B Good

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I asked my PA man what his opinion of 1/4" jacks as speaker connectors
is. Now this is a guy who sells the stuff, rents the stuff, sets up
gigs with the stuff in everything from pubs to massive show venues, and
eats, drinks and sleeps PA. He is an expert in the practicalities of
speccing, and using PA. His answer ? That they are just fine.

I'd say I've been dealing with professional PA rigs for rather longer than
him and I say they're not.

That there
is no problem with them, nor has there ever been.

You've never seen broken jack plugs or sockets? I really don't believe
that. I've yet to have to see a broken Speakon or Powercon - which is one
reason I'm so keen on them. Even more so for gear involved in use 'on the
road'.


And his view of
Speakons over jacks ? They have some merit at very high power levels
because in general, they can take a heavier gauge of cable than a jack,
and it is then an advantage to have them lock in place because of the
weight of that cable. At lower power levels, he says, their only -
that's *only* - advantage over jacks is the fact that they *do* lock in
place, and that sometimes in some equipment configurations that is
actually a disadvantage because if a lead gets tripped over, it can
pull a speaker down from a stack or a stand, or tear the wire out of
the plug.

Bunch of amateurs. Cables to speakers etc should be either rigged so they
can't be tripped over or protected from that. To make this a reason not to
use a locking connector says much about him. As any roadie worthy of the
name would tie off a 1/4" jack lead to the speaker precisely because it is
so easily pulled out. And any cable to a stand mounted speaker secured so
it doesn't attempt to pull over the speaker - which should be on a
sensible stable stand anyway, where the public are admitted.


He said all of this with no prompting from me. When he did
ask me why I wanted to know, and I explained what you were saying, he
actually laughed.

So you've found another who doesn't understand such things as regards high
quality amplification. So what?

I'll ask again, since you are conveniently avoiding the topic which is
about 'Hi-Fi' speaker connectors. Not pub sound systems.

Which Hi-Fi amplifier uses 1/4" jacks for speakers? Or even which domestic
amp uses them?

--
*He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Arfa Daily" wrote:

... Of course balanced is, on paper, a better system for coupling signals
over longer distances...

And hostile environments. One can go further and use eg 'starquad' (4
twisted cores per signal, apart from the screen).

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Email sent to my from-address will be deleted. Instead, please reply
to replacing "aaa" by "284".

In article id,
Jeremy Nicoll - news posts
wrote:
"Arfa Daily" wrote:

... Of course balanced is, on paper, a better system for coupling
signals over longer distances...

And hostile environments. One can go further and use eg 'starquad' (4
twisted cores per signal, apart from the screen).

Brilliant stuff, starquad.

--
*The closest I ever got to a 4.0 in school was my blood alcohol content*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I'm no 'oxygen free solid silver' speaker wire type - but can assure
you that introducing appreciable resistance to speaker wiring is
easily heard.

Define 'appreciable'

Introducing a 1/4" jack socket. ;-)

Er, no. Take the trouble to read the manufacturer's published specs ...

Arfa



--
*War does not determine who is right - only who is left.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/sp...ctors/speakon-
combo/nlj2md-h


Thats I reckon what you'd term a "legacy" capable device...

It's only "legacy" if the item for which it is capable is no longer in
common use, which is clearly not the case with 1/4 " jacks on musical
amplifiers. And that still doesn't answer the question of why, if jacks are
such crap, a company like Neutrik would want to potentially compromise its
own 'superior' product by including the capability of connecting a crap
product to it.

Arfa

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I asked my PA man what his opinion of 1/4" jacks as speaker connectors
is. Now this is a guy who sells the stuff, rents the stuff, sets up
gigs with the stuff in everything from pubs to massive show venues, and
eats, drinks and sleeps PA. He is an expert in the practicalities of
speccing, and using PA. His answer ? That they are just fine.

I'd say I've been dealing with professional PA rigs for rather longer than
him and I say they're not.

That there
is no problem with them, nor has there ever been.

You've never seen broken jack plugs or sockets? I really don't believe
that. I've yet to have to see a broken Speakon or Powercon - which is one
reason I'm so keen on them. Even more so for gear involved in use 'on the
road'.


And his view of
Speakons over jacks ? They have some merit at very high power levels
because in general, they can take a heavier gauge of cable than a jack,
and it is then an advantage to have them lock in place because of the
weight of that cable. At lower power levels, he says, their only -
that's *only* - advantage over jacks is the fact that they *do* lock in
place, and that sometimes in some equipment configurations that is
actually a disadvantage because if a lead gets tripped over, it can
pull a speaker down from a stack or a stand, or tear the wire out of
the plug.

Bunch of amateurs. Cables to speakers etc should be either rigged so they
can't be tripped over or protected from that. To make this a reason not to
use a locking connector says much about him. As any roadie worthy of the
name would tie off a 1/4" jack lead to the speaker precisely because it is
so easily pulled out. And any cable to a stand mounted speaker secured so
it doesn't attempt to pull over the speaker - which should be on a
sensible stable stand anyway, where the public are admitted.

And this from the man that said that roadies were so professional that they
were likely to get input and output jacks confused when rigging the gear.
Sheesh ...

Still if the great Dave says it, it must be true ...

Arfa




He said all of this with no prompting from me. When he did
ask me why I wanted to know, and I explained what you were saying, he
actually laughed.

So you've found another who doesn't understand such things as regards high
quality amplification. So what?

I'll ask again, since you are conveniently avoiding the topic which is
about 'Hi-Fi' speaker connectors. Not pub sound systems.

Which Hi-Fi amplifier uses 1/4" jacks for speakers? Or even which domestic
amp uses them?

--
*He who dies with the most toys is, nonetheless, dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Arfa Daily
scribeth thus


"tony sayer" wrote in message
...

Most connectors have a tiny contact area, and Speakons are actually not
that
much different in that regard. They are still a small circular pin
contacting a flat, thin piece of spring steel.


Decent quality jacks actually
have quite large contact areas.

Do they?, anyone know just how much?...

--
Tony Sayer




Well, Switchcraft for instance, manufacture jack plugs and sockets
specifically for loudspeaker use, which rather knocks on the head all of
the
opinionated nonsense being spouted in this thread by some people, about
them
not being suitable for the job.

Look at

http://www.fullcompass.com/product/309816.html


Course for Pro and or road use robustness comes into it where plastic
bodied plugs aren't what I'd consider up to it;!..

where it states quite clearly in the specs

"Plug is rated at 15A rms (maximum) for use with audio loudspeaker
applications"



So the contact area must be reasonably large. And if a well-respected
connector manufacturer like Switchcraft say that the 1/4" jack is good
enough as a speaker connector, then that's good enough for me, as I would
take what they say as a factual statement about one of their products,
over
unsubstantiated opinion, all day every day ...



Well they would say that .. wouldn't they;?...

So, what say you then ? They are lying perhaps ?




I wonder what if you applied a music signal across that what the volts
drop would be compared to a number of other connectors?.


If you read the rest of the specs, the contact resistance is quoted as low
enough that the volts drop would be negligible

Arfa



Or how they would manage with a continuous 15 amp RMS current compared
to other connectors.


One for some experimentation when I'm retired I expect..

Arfa




--
Tony Sayer

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
Well, Switchcraft for instance, manufacture jack plugs and sockets
specifically for loudspeaker use, which rather knocks on the head all of
the opinionated nonsense being spouted in this thread by some people,
about them not being suitable for the job.

You seem to have changed your tune. It's now that *some* specially made
1/4" jack connectors are suitable for speakers. Not what you said
initially.

That might be the case.

I haven't changed my tune at all. I see 1/4" jack connectors of all and
every variety from open frame to enclosed plastic types used as speaker
connectors on a variety of musical and PA amplification equipment, just
about every working day. They work, and they work reliably. It is
exceedingly rare to get any problems with these connectors - and contrary to
what you believe, that is also the case where the plugs are left permanently
connected, as is found with many combos. You, on the other hand, have
consistently declared that in your opinion, the 1/4" jack is a totally
unsuitable connector for connecting loudspeakers to *any* equipment, and
your preferred type was the Speakon. All I have done with the Switchcraft
reference is to attempt to show you that that particular manufacturer - and
I'm sure there would be others if I could be fagged to look - makes a 1/4"
jack connector which it *specifically* declares is for speaker use, and has
a not too dissimilar contact rating to the Speakon.

Now you can choose to believe that Switchcraft don't know what they are
talking about and are liars if you want. You can also choose to split hairs
over "some specially made" jacks, but the fact remains that here is an
example of something that you have consistently denied exists, because 1/4"
jacks are only for poor quality small signal use, yes ?

Arfa



Personally, I dislike using the 'same' type of connector for a variety of
tasks. When there is no need and better alternatives available.

It also makes a nonsense of having jacks for both line level and speakers
on a PA setup if you have to have 'special' leads for the speakers. Why
not just use a decent made for the job connector/lead in the first place?

--
*Gargling is a good way to see if your throat leaks.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Arfa Daily
scribeth thus


http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/sp...ctors/speakon-
combo/nlj2md-h


Thats I reckon what you'd term a "legacy" capable device...

It's only "legacy" if the item for which it is capable is no longer in
common use, which is clearly not the case with 1/4 " jacks on musical
amplifiers. And that still doesn't answer the question of why, if jacks are
such crap, a company like Neutrik would want to potentially compromise its
own 'superior' product by including the capability of connecting a crap
product to it.

Arfa




Simple Arfa, they need to sell and if thats what the market wants then
they'll make it. They are astute enough to see that people will still
use the jack plug if they so want to.

Regardless of the original application and intent.

--
Tony Sayer

So the contact area must be reasonably large. And if a well-respected
connector manufacturer like Switchcraft say that the 1/4" jack is good
enough as a speaker connector, then that's good enough for me, as I would
take what they say as a factual statement about one of their products,
over
unsubstantiated opinion, all day every day ...



Well they would say that .. wouldn't they;?...

So, what say you then ? They are lying perhaps ?

Are they actually saying that as such;?.

They just make them as the market rightly or whatever may demand..

Like cigarette makers ;-!.....





I wonder what if you applied a music signal across that what the volts
drop would be compared to a number of other connectors?.


If you read the rest of the specs, the contact resistance is quoted as low
enough that the volts drop would be negligible

Well as maybe you can measure the contact resistance of two bits of 22
SWG wire touching each other and that may well be low but it won't
handle that much current..

Had a look at a jack plug and socket last night and it does seem that
its a very small contact area actually used.


--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I'm no 'oxygen free solid silver' speaker wire type - but can assure
you that introducing appreciable resistance to speaker wiring is
easily heard.

Define 'appreciable'

Introducing a 1/4" jack socket. ;-)

Er, no. Take the trouble to read the manufacturer's published specs ...

I gave what Peter Walker (Quad) said about it elsewhere.

--
*I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:


http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/sp...ctors/speakon-
combo/nlj2md-h


Thats I reckon what you'd term a "legacy" capable device...

It's only "legacy" if the item for which it is capable is no longer in
common use, which is clearly not the case with 1/4 " jacks on musical
amplifiers. And that still doesn't answer the question of why, if jacks
are such crap, a company like Neutrik would want to potentially
compromise its own 'superior' product by including the capability of
connecting a crap product to it.

You might also ask why Neutrik went to the bother of designing the Speakon
if the 1/4" jack was a perfect speaker connector.

--
*Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
Bunch of amateurs. Cables to speakers etc should be either rigged so
they can't be tripped over or protected from that. To make this a
reason not to use a locking connector says much about him. As any
roadie worthy of the name would tie off a 1/4" jack lead to the
speaker precisely because it is so easily pulled out. And any cable to
a stand mounted speaker secured so it doesn't attempt to pull over the
speaker - which should be on a sensible stable stand anyway, where the
public are admitted.

And this from the man that said that roadies were so professional that
they were likely to get input and output jacks confused when rigging
the gear. Sheesh ...

Do you even think before posting this crap?

Still if the great Dave says it, it must be true ...

Some of us have dealt with this sort of thing all our working lives and
have opinions based on experience. The fact that a legacy connector is
still a standard in one area doesn't make it the best for the job. If it
were, it would be universal.

--
*Born free - taxed to death *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
You seem to have changed your tune. It's now that *some* specially made
1/4" jack connectors are suitable for speakers. Not what you said
initially.

That might be the case.

I haven't changed my tune at all. I see 1/4" jack connectors of all and
every variety from open frame to enclosed plastic types used as speaker
connectors on a variety of musical and PA amplification equipment, just
about every working day. They work, and they work reliably. It is
exceedingly rare to get any problems with these connectors - and
contrary to what you believe, that is also the case where the plugs are
left permanently connected, as is found with many combos. You, on the
other hand, have consistently declared that in your opinion, the 1/4"
jack is a totally unsuitable connector for connecting loudspeakers to
*any* equipment, and your preferred type was the Speakon. All I have
done with the Switchcraft reference is to attempt to show you that that
particular manufacturer - and I'm sure there would be others if I could
be fagged to look - makes a 1/4" jack connector which it *specifically*
declares is for speaker use, and has a not too dissimilar contact
rating to the Speakon.

So the fact that there is an 'improved' version specifically for speakers
doesn't make you realise that a 'standard' type is lacking in some way?
Do you actually understand what you post?



Now you can choose to believe that Switchcraft don't know what they are
talking about and are liars if you want. You can also choose to split
hairs over "some specially made" jacks, but the fact remains that here
is an example of something that you have consistently denied exists,
because 1/4" jacks are only for poor quality small signal use, yes ?

At least you seem to understand that bit.

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
If you read the rest of the specs, the contact resistance is quoted as low
enough that the volts drop would be negligible

Well as maybe you can measure the contact resistance of two bits of 22
SWG wire touching each other and that may well be low but it won't
handle that much current..

Had a look at a jack plug and socket last night and it does seem that
its a very small contact area actually used.

Arfa is a simple repair man. If he ever actually used the damn things in
anger he'd know just what a crap connector they are in practice. Just
simply move any jack which has seen some service and you'll likely get a
crackle...

Just think of their history. They were initially designed for a telephone
switchboard. Where the important thing was ease of insertion and removal.
And where they'd be used frequently so keep fairly clean.

Once you remove the need for easy insertion, their shortcomings as a
connector become very apparent.

--
*A bicycle can't stand alone because it's two tyred.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:


http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/sp...ctors/speakon-
combo/nlj2md-h


Thats I reckon what you'd term a "legacy" capable device...

It's only "legacy" if the item for which it is capable is no longer in
common use, which is clearly not the case with 1/4 " jacks on musical
amplifiers. And that still doesn't answer the question of why, if jacks
are such crap, a company like Neutrik would want to potentially
compromise its own 'superior' product by including the capability of
connecting a crap product to it.

You might also ask why Neutrik went to the bother of designing the Speakon
if the 1/4" jack was a perfect speaker connector.



Heres a better one....


http://www.adamhall.com/en/Amphenol_...le_female.html
--
Tony Sayer

In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Heres a better one....


http://www.adamhall.com/en/Amphenol_...le_female.html

Would you buy anything from a firm that can't count? ;-)

--
*Laugh alone and the world thinks you're an idiot.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Heres a better one....


http://www.adamhall.com/en/Amphenol_...le_female.html

Would you buy anything from a firm that can't count? ;-)

Now it does say..

"Image similar"!

--
Tony Sayer

On 28/03/2014 19:17, tony sayer wrote:
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
Heres a better one....


http://www.adamhall.com/en/Amphenol_...le_female.html

Would you buy anything from a firm that can't count? ;-)

Now it does say..

"Image similar"!

Maybe you need stereo glasses to see it right?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
I'm no 'oxygen free solid silver' speaker wire type - but can assure
you that introducing appreciable resistance to speaker wiring is
easily heard.

Define 'appreciable'

Introducing a 1/4" jack socket. ;-)

Er, no. Take the trouble to read the manufacturer's published specs ...

I gave what Peter Walker (Quad) said about it elsewhere.


Peter Walker is about a hundred years out of date. Read the manufacturers'
specs for contact resistance - which include aged values - of their
up-to-date jack products ...

Arfa



--
*I'll try being nicer if you'll try being smarter

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Arfa Daily
scribeth thus


http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/sp...ctors/speakon-
combo/nlj2md-h


Thats I reckon what you'd term a "legacy" capable device...

It's only "legacy" if the item for which it is capable is no longer in
common use, which is clearly not the case with 1/4 " jacks on musical
amplifiers. And that still doesn't answer the question of why, if jacks
are
such crap, a company like Neutrik would want to potentially compromise its
own 'superior' product by including the capability of connecting a crap
product to it.

Arfa




Simple Arfa, they need to sell and if thats what the market wants then
they'll make it. They are astute enough to see that people will still
use the jack plug if they so want to.

Regardless of the original application and intent.

--
Tony Sayer


Yes, of course, but my point is that if they have any integrity as a company
at all, then they must be accepting that a jack connector is a suitable one
to integrate into their speaker connection product. And if they are doing it
just because of financial gain, then they clearly are not the high quality
company that they would have you believe ...

Arfa

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:


http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/sp...ctors/speakon-
combo/nlj2md-h


Thats I reckon what you'd term a "legacy" capable device...

It's only "legacy" if the item for which it is capable is no longer in
common use, which is clearly not the case with 1/4 " jacks on musical
amplifiers. And that still doesn't answer the question of why, if jacks
are such crap, a company like Neutrik would want to potentially
compromise its own 'superior' product by including the capability of
connecting a crap product to it.

You might also ask why Neutrik went to the bother of designing the Speakon
if the 1/4" jack was a perfect speaker connector.

Where did I ever say that it was the 'perfect' speaker connector ? I fully
accepted that their connectors were more appropriate for very high power
levels. But there you are turning it around again. It was *your* original
contention that 1/4" jacks were a totally unsuitable connector for any type
of speaker connection, that started this nonsensical debate ...

Arfa


--
*Warning: Dates in Calendar are closer than they appear.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"tony sayer" wrote in message
...
In article , Dave Plowman (News)
scribeth thus
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:


http://www.neutrik.com/en/speakon/sp...ctors/speakon-
combo/nlj2md-h


Thats I reckon what you'd term a "legacy" capable device...

It's only "legacy" if the item for which it is capable is no longer in
common use, which is clearly not the case with 1/4 " jacks on musical
amplifiers. And that still doesn't answer the question of why, if jacks
are such crap, a company like Neutrik would want to potentially
compromise its own 'superior' product by including the capability of
connecting a crap product to it.

You might also ask why Neutrik went to the bother of designing the Speakon
if the 1/4" jack was a perfect speaker connector.



Heres a better one....


http://www.adamhall.com/en/Amphenol_...le_female.html
--
Tony Sayer



Jesus H Christ ! At 26 quid a pop, I should hope that it is ...

Arfa

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
Bunch of amateurs. Cables to speakers etc should be either rigged so
they can't be tripped over or protected from that. To make this a
reason not to use a locking connector says much about him. As any
roadie worthy of the name would tie off a 1/4" jack lead to the
speaker precisely because it is so easily pulled out. And any cable to
a stand mounted speaker secured so it doesn't attempt to pull over the
speaker - which should be on a sensible stable stand anyway, where the
public are admitted.

And this from the man that said that roadies were so professional that
they were likely to get input and output jacks confused when rigging
the gear. Sheesh ...

Do you even think before posting this crap?

Do you ??


Still if the great Dave says it, it must be true ...

Some of us have dealt with this sort of thing all our working lives and
have opinions based on experience.

But you can't accept that a person that I have told you also has a
lifetime's experience of PA supply and rigging, can have any opinion that is
different from yours, and could be just as valid ? And I actually find it
deeply offensive that you call him an amateur because he doesn't do this
work in TV studios, or wherever you think it has to be to be considered
'professional'.

I used to have a deal of respect for you and your experience Dave, but in
this discussion, you have shown yourself to be a pompous and opinionated
ass, so totally blinkered as to be unable to even *consider* that you might
just be wrong with some of your beliefs.


The fact that a legacy connector is
still a standard in one area doesn't make it the best for the job. If it
were, it would be universal.

And as I said to Tony, in order for it to be considered 'legacy' it would
have to no longer be in current usage, which clearly is not the case, so
'legacy' and 'still a standard' in the same sentence, is a contradiction in
terms ...

Arfa



--
*Born free - taxed to death *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
tony sayer wrote:
If you read the rest of the specs, the contact resistance is quoted as
low
enough that the volts drop would be negligible

Well as maybe you can measure the contact resistance of two bits of 22
SWG wire touching each other and that may well be low but it won't
handle that much current..

Had a look at a jack plug and socket last night and it does seem that
its a very small contact area actually used.

Arfa is a simple repair man.

You pompous ****

Arfa

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Arfa Daily wrote:
You seem to have changed your tune. It's now that *some* specially made
1/4" jack connectors are suitable for speakers. Not what you said
initially.

That might be the case.

I haven't changed my tune at all. I see 1/4" jack connectors of all and
every variety from open frame to enclosed plastic types used as speaker
connectors on a variety of musical and PA amplification equipment, just
about every working day. They work, and they work reliably. It is
exceedingly rare to get any problems with these connectors - and
contrary to what you believe, that is also the case where the plugs are
left permanently connected, as is found with many combos. You, on the
other hand, have consistently declared that in your opinion, the 1/4"
jack is a totally unsuitable connector for connecting loudspeakers to
*any* equipment, and your preferred type was the Speakon. All I have
done with the Switchcraft reference is to attempt to show you that that
particular manufacturer - and I'm sure there would be others if I could
be fagged to look - makes a 1/4" jack connector which it *specifically*
declares is for speaker use, and has a not too dissimilar contact
rating to the Speakon.

So the fact that there is an 'improved' version specifically for speakers
doesn't make you realise that a 'standard' type is lacking in some way?
Do you actually understand what you post?



Now you can choose to believe that Switchcraft don't know what they are
talking about and are liars if you want. You can also choose to split
hairs over "some specially made" jacks, but the fact remains that here
is an example of something that you have consistently denied exists,
because 1/4" jacks are only for poor quality small signal use, yes ?

At least you seem to understand that bit.

Oh **** off ...

I've had enough of you now.

Arfa

--
*INDECISION is the key to FLEXIBILITY *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.