On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:
We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.
It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's
fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.
Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.
To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I
will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn
it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.
Derek
(cross-posted)

It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.

TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the
windows to control heat.

Andy
--
A TVR, on the other hand, is an expensive sports car.

On Thursday, 13 February 2014 20:34:39 UTC, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:

We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.

It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's

fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.

Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.

To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I

will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn

it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.

Derek

(cross-posted)



It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.



TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the

windows to control heat.



Andy

--

A TVR, on the other hand, is an expensive sports car.

;) he probably got that from some dumb wiki page...

Jim K

On 13/02/2014 20:34, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:
We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.
It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's
fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.
Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.
To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I
will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn
it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.
Derek
(cross-posted)

It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.

TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the
windows to control heat.


If everybody fits and correctly adjusts TRVs, it will cut down the heat
used and the (presumably shared) heating bill.

However, it's a bit like global warming - it relies on *everybody*
taking suitable counter-measures, or it doesn't work equitably.

If only *some* people fit TRVs, they will potentially reduce their own
comfort levels whilst continuing to subsidise the high energy
consumption of those who don't!
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

In article ,
Vir Campestris writes:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:
We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.
It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's
fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.
Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.
To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I
will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn
it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.
Derek
(cross-posted)

It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.

TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the
windows to control heat.

A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat.
It is not - it's a *room* thermostat.

The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the
*room* temperature.

The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw
the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the
heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is
opened for 5 minutes or more.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 13/02/2014 22:05, Roger Mills wrote:
If only *some* people fit TRVs, they will potentially reduce their own
comfort levels whilst continuing to subsidise the high energy
consumption of those who don't!

For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable
in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18
or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you.

--
Rod

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
On Thursday, 13 February 2014 20:34:39 UTC, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:

We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.

It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's

fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.

Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.

To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I

will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn

it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.

Derek

(cross-posted)



It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.



TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the

windows to control heat.



Andy

--

A TVR, on the other hand, is an expensive sports car.

;) he probably got that from some dumb wiki page...

Jim K

So go write the wiki yourself.

On 13/02/2014 20:34, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:
We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.
It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's
fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.
Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.
To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I
will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn
it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.
Derek
(cross-posted)

It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.

When we moved in the valves were corroded and did not turn. We had them
replaced when the new boilers were put in two years ago. When off the
rads go cold but any on position gives out the ame heat.
TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the
windows to control heat.

That was the first thing we noticed when we moved here, most poeople
just opened windows to cool rooms down.
Derek

On 13/02/2014 22:10, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Vir Campestris writes:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:
We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.
It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's
fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.
Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.
To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I
will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn
it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.
Derek
(cross-posted)

It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.

TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the
windows to control heat.

A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat.
It is not - it's a *room* thermostat.

The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the
*room* temperature.

The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw
the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the
heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is
opened for 5 minutes or more.

That's a smart move.
Derek

polygonum wrote:

For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable
in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18
or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you.


Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each
dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and
this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents
drape bags of frozen peas over the device.

Bill

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Vir Campestris writes:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:
We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.
It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's
fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.
Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.
To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I
will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn
it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.
Derek
(cross-posted)

It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.

TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the
windows to control heat.

A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat.
It is not - it's a *room* thermostat.

The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the
*room* temperature.

The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw
the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the
heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is
opened for 5 minutes or more.


The big problem is they don't work very well.
They are more influenced by the nearby radiator temperature than the room
temperature.
Unless you have one with a remote sensor.

In article ,
"harryagain" writes:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Vir Campestris writes:
It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.

TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the
windows to control heat.

A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat.
It is not - it's a *room* thermostat.

The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the
*room* temperature.

The big problem is they don't work very well.
They are more influenced by the nearby radiator temperature than the room
temperature.
Unless you have one with a remote sensor.

Fortunately, at least for any of the decent ones I've used, that's
completely untrue.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Bill Wright writes:
polygonum wrote:

For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable
in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18
or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you.


Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each
dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and
this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents
drape bags of frozen peas over the device.

There are devices which measure the flow rate and temperature drop
between flow and return, to enable accurate billing for energy
consumed. They are not cheap though.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Friday, 14 February 2014 09:04:29 UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , Bill Wright writes: polygonum wrote: For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18 or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you. Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents drape bags of frozen peas over the device. There are devices which measure the flow rate and temperature drop between flow and return, to enable accurate billing for energy consumed. They are not cheap though. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

These posts are all very interesting, but what has it got to do with fitting an old british sports car to a communal heating system?

On 13/02/2014 22:15, polygonum wrote:
On 13/02/2014 22:05, Roger Mills wrote:
If only *some* people fit TRVs, they will potentially reduce their own
comfort levels whilst continuing to subsidise the high energy
consumption of those who don't!

For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable
in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18
or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you.


I don't like it too hot either - but SWMBO doesn't always agree! And I
did say "potentially" reduce the comfort level.
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Friday, 14 February 2014 11:50:18 UTC, Huge wrote:
On 2014-02-14, wrote:

On Friday, 14 February 2014 09:04:29 UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

In article , Bill Wright writes: polygonum wrote: For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18 or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you. Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents drape bags of frozen peas over the device. There are devices which measure the flow rate and temperature drop between flow and return, to enable accurate billing for energy consumed. They are not cheap though. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]



These posts are all very interesting, but what has it got to do with fitting

an old british sports car to a communal heating system?



Have you ever seen the underbonnet temperatures on a TVR?

when it's running presumably?

Jim K

"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in
message ...
In article
,
Vir Campestris writes:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:
We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot
water system.
It has been suggested that residents at their own
expense have TVR's
fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal
heating bill.
Some have previously replaced their radiators and have
TVR's.
To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will
work.... but I
will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve
full on or turn
it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same
heat.
Derek
(cross-posted)

It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the
valve isn't off.

TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people
having to open the
windows to control heat.

A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a
*radiator* thermostat.
It is not - it's a *room* thermostat.

The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV
maintains the
*room* temperature.

The big problem with communal heating systems is that
people just throw
the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home
automation, the
heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door
or window is
opened for 5 minutes or more.


The big problem is they don't work very well.
They are more influenced by the nearby radiator
temperature than the room temperature.
Unless you have one with a remote sensor.



I spotted that one before installation, so when the time
came I fitted them on the return side of the radiators so
that the sensor is horizontal and a tad further away from
the heat source. Works very well.

Also to the OP remember to leave one radiator without a TRV
so that some water can always flow through your system
(although I guess this applies more to a single domestic
installation.) The bathroom is the best option.


--
Woody

harrogate three at ntlworld dot com

On 14/02/2014 12:10, Woody wrote:

snip

Also to the OP remember to leave one radiator without a TRV
so that some water can always flow through your system
(although I guess this applies more to a single domestic
installation.) The bathroom is the best option.

Best place for a rad without a TRV is the same area as the room-stat.

On 14/02/2014 02:46, Bill Wright wrote:
polygonum wrote:

For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am
uncomfortable in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well,
most often 18 or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you.


Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each
dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and
this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents
drape bags of frozen peas over the device.

Bill
Brilliant.
Derek

On 14/02/2014 12:10, Woody wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message
...

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in
message ...
In article
,
Vir Campestris writes:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:
We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot
water system.
It has been suggested that residents at their own
expense have TVR's
fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal
heating bill.
Some have previously replaced their radiators and have
TVR's.
To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will
work.... but I
will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve
full on or turn
it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same
heat.
Derek
(cross-posted)

It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the
valve isn't off.

TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people
having to open the
windows to control heat.

A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a
*radiator* thermostat.
It is not - it's a *room* thermostat.

The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV
maintains the
*room* temperature.

The big problem with communal heating systems is that
people just throw
the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home
automation, the
heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door
or window is
opened for 5 minutes or more.


The big problem is they don't work very well.
They are more influenced by the nearby radiator
temperature than the room temperature.
Unless you have one with a remote sensor.



I spotted that one before installation, so when the time
came I fitted them on the return side of the radiators so
that the sensor is horizontal and a tad further away from
the heat source. Works very well.

Also to the OP remember to leave one radiator without a TRV
so that some water can always flow through your system
(although I guess this applies more to a single domestic
installation.) The bathroom is the best option.


The bathroom towel rail (no Rad there) works off the hot water system.
When the new boiler was installed I was going to get new radiators
installed. Only three out of eight contacted from the local Checkatrade
directory wanted to come to quote. They scratched their heads and did
not understand how they would do it. I took them next door to a
neighbour who had previously replaced her rads replaced and had TVR's.
They evidently understood then. By the way we have parquet flooring
under the carpets if that makes any difference.
Two did not want to do it. Silence from the third. Eventually an E-Mail
to him produced a quote of over £3k for three radiators and another
Grand if we wanted an additional one in the hall.I did not bother
replying.
Derek

On 14/02/2014 08:31, harryagain wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Vir Campestris writes:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:
We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.
It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's
fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.
Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.
To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I
will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn
it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.
Derek
(cross-posted)

It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.

TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the
windows to control heat.

A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat.
It is not - it's a *room* thermostat.

The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the
*room* temperature.

The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw
the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the
heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is
opened for 5 minutes or more.


The big problem is they don't work very well.
They are more influenced by the nearby radiator temperature than the room
temperature.
Unless you have one with a remote sensor.


We have 51 flats. The penthouses and ones in an annexe have their own
systems as do a few others. Probably about 35 use the communal heating.
This year the estimated gas cost is £38,500. Less than when we had the
old oil fired boilers.
Now my Thicko bit again. I don't understand how the water flows between
the ones in our flat or round the building. How does an individual
thermostatic valve reduce a radiator heat when water of a certain
temperature leaves the boiler?
If does it by reducing the flow would not less water be leaving the rad
to go on to the next rad as it must be continually flowing round this
huge building.
Mind you I didn't understand it when we had our own system in a house
and a flat but at least then I could hear our pump going.
Answers and diagrams n the back of a fag packet please:-)
Derek

On Friday, February 14, 2014 3:29:00 PM UTC, Derek F wrote:
On 14/02/2014 08:31, harryagain wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

...

In article ,

Vir Campestris writes:

On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:

We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.

It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's

fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.

Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.

To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I

will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn

it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.

Derek

(cross-posted)



It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.



TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the

windows to control heat.



A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat.

"Bill Wright" wrote in message
...
polygonum wrote:

For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable
in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18 or
lower. And quite comfortably, thank you.


Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each dwelling
has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and this is
used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents drape bags
of frozen peas over the device.


Would bags of ice cubes not be cheaper:-)?

--
Adam

On 14/02/2014 11:45, Roger Mills wrote:
I don't like it too hot either - but SWMBO doesn't always agree! And I
did say "potentially" reduce the comfort level.

You certainly did!

In my case it is partner who suffers far more if temperature is higher.
I simply get warm/hot and slightly miserable - she gets severe pain.

--
Rod

On Friday, February 14, 2014 2:46:21 AM UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
polygonum wrote:

Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each

dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and

this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents

drape bags of frozen peas over the device.


Maybe once, but a modern system would have the same sensor controlling the room temperature frozen peas would activate a sensor low level alarm.
You'd need a heat meter now I think (flow rate sensor and F&R temperature sensors).
Bill

"Onetap" wrote in message
...
On Friday, February 14, 2014 3:29:00 PM UTC, Derek F wrote:
On 14/02/2014 08:31, harryagain wrote:

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message

...

In article ,

Vir Campestris writes:

On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:

We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system.

It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's

fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill.

Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's.

To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I

will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or
turn

it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat.

Derek

(cross-posted)



It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off.



TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open
the

windows to control heat.



A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator*
thermostat.

It is not - it's a *room* thermostat.



The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the

*room* temperature.



The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw

the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the

heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is

opened for 5 minutes or more.





The big problem is they don't work very well.

They are more influenced by the nearby radiator temperature than the
room

temperature.

Unless you have one with a remote sensor.





We have 51 flats. The penthouses and ones in an annexe have their own

systems as do a few others. Probably about 35 use the communal heating.

This year the estimated gas cost is £38,500. Less than when we had the

old oil fired boilers.

Now my Thicko bit again. I don't understand how the water flows between

the ones in our flat or round the building. How does an individual

thermostatic valve reduce a radiator heat when water of a certain

temperature leaves the boiler?

If does it by reducing the flow would not less water be leaving the rad

to go on to the next rad as it must be continually flowing round this

huge building.

Mind you I didn't understand it when we had our own system in a house

and a flat but at least then I could hear our pump going.

Answers and diagrams n the back of a fag packet please:-)

Derek

Quick answer there would typically be a pair of flow and return pipes,
usually in a services duct in a central stairwell. From that there would be
flow and return branches to each flat. Each radiator would connect between
the F&R, a TRv would restrict the water flow as the room temperature reached
the setpoint.

You should be able to turn all your rads off, or just have one or two on
without affecting the rest of the block.

Here's the thing though. As TRVs close down, the volumetric flow rate
decreases and the pump differential pressure increases; look at a pump
curve. Hopefully the new boilers had intelligent pumps that throttle back to
maintain a constant differential across F&R. If not, it can cause much TRV
whistling since they can only cope with a limited pressure differential
across them.


There are various designs.
Different ideas from different times and different fuels.
Normally in large systems there is a pump in the boilerhouse that circulates
constant temperature water round a single pipe loop/system that is in a
central position
The individual flats probably each have their own pump abstracting water
from this loop and individual control sytems.

Not popular these days, inefficient and expensive to install.
It's more usual for each flate to have it's own boiler with a gas supply
running round the building.
(This can bring it's own dangers though.)

On Monday, February 17, 2014 8:31:37 AM UTC, harry wrote:
"Onetap" wrote in message

Quick answer there would typically be a pair of flow and return pipes,

usually in a services duct in a central stairwell. From that there would be

flow and return branches to each flat. Each radiator would connect between

the F&R, a TRv would restrict the water flow as the room temperature reached

the setpoint.



You should be able to turn all your rads off, or just have one or two on

without affecting the rest of the block.



Here's the thing though. As TRVs close down, the volumetric flow rate

decreases and the pump differential pressure increases; look at a pump

curve. Hopefully the new boilers had intelligent pumps that throttle back to

maintain a constant differential across F&R. If not, it can cause much TRV

whistling since they can only cope with a limited pressure differential

across them.





There are various designs.

Different ideas from different times and different fuels.

Normally in large systems there is a pump in the boilerhouse that circulates

constant temperature water round a single pipe loop/system that is in a

central position

The individual flats probably each have their own pump abstracting water

from this loop and individual control sytems.

No.
PHXs have become quite common, a simple way of hydraulically separating landlord's and tenant's systems.


Not popular these days, inefficient and expensive to install.

It's more usual for each flate to have it's own boiler with a gas supply

running round the building.

(This can bring it's own dangers though.)

Only where mains gas is available.