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TVR on communal central heating system
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote:
We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. Andy -- A TVR, on the other hand, is an expensive sports car. |
TVR on communal central heating system
On Thursday, 13 February 2014 20:34:39 UTC, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. Andy -- A TVR, on the other hand, is an expensive sports car. ;) he probably got that from some dumb wiki page... Jim K |
TVR on communal central heating system
On 13/02/2014 20:34, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. If everybody fits and correctly adjusts TRVs, it will cut down the heat used and the (presumably shared) heating bill. However, it's a bit like global warming - it relies on *everybody* taking suitable counter-measures, or it doesn't work equitably. If only *some* people fit TRVs, they will potentially reduce their own comfort levels whilst continuing to subsidise the high energy consumption of those who don't! -- Cheers, Roger ____________ Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom checked. |
TVR on communal central heating system
In article ,
Vir Campestris writes: On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat. It is not - it's a *room* thermostat. The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the *room* temperature. The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is opened for 5 minutes or more. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
TVR on communal central heating system
On 13/02/2014 22:05, Roger Mills wrote:
If only *some* people fit TRVs, they will potentially reduce their own comfort levels whilst continuing to subsidise the high energy consumption of those who don't! For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18 or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you. -- Rod |
TVR on communal central heating system
"Jim K" wrote in message ... On Thursday, 13 February 2014 20:34:39 UTC, Vir Campestris wrote: On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. Andy -- A TVR, on the other hand, is an expensive sports car. ;) he probably got that from some dumb wiki page... Jim K So go write the wiki yourself. |
TVR on communal central heating system
On 13/02/2014 20:34, Vir Campestris wrote:
On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. When we moved in the valves were corroded and did not turn. We had them replaced when the new boilers were put in two years ago. When off the rads go cold but any on position gives out the ame heat. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. That was the first thing we noticed when we moved here, most poeople just opened windows to cool rooms down. Derek |
TVR on communal central heating system
On 13/02/2014 22:10, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , Vir Campestris writes: On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat. It is not - it's a *room* thermostat. The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the *room* temperature. The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is opened for 5 minutes or more. That's a smart move. Derek |
TVR on communal central heating system
polygonum wrote:
For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18 or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you. Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents drape bags of frozen peas over the device. Bill |
TVR on communal central heating system
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , Vir Campestris writes: On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat. It is not - it's a *room* thermostat. The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the *room* temperature. The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is opened for 5 minutes or more. The big problem is they don't work very well. They are more influenced by the nearby radiator temperature than the room temperature. Unless you have one with a remote sensor. |
TVR on communal central heating system
In article ,
"harryagain" writes: "Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , Vir Campestris writes: It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat. It is not - it's a *room* thermostat. The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the *room* temperature. The big problem is they don't work very well. They are more influenced by the nearby radiator temperature than the room temperature. Unless you have one with a remote sensor. Fortunately, at least for any of the decent ones I've used, that's completely untrue. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
TVR on communal central heating system
In article ,
Bill Wright writes: polygonum wrote: For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18 or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you. Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents drape bags of frozen peas over the device. There are devices which measure the flow rate and temperature drop between flow and return, to enable accurate billing for energy consumed. They are not cheap though. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
TVR on communal central heating system
On Friday, 14 February 2014 09:04:29 UTC, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article , Bill Wright writes: polygonum wrote: For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18 or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you. Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents drape bags of frozen peas over the device. There are devices which measure the flow rate and temperature drop between flow and return, to enable accurate billing for energy consumed. They are not cheap though. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] These posts are all very interesting, but what has it got to do with fitting an old british sports car to a communal heating system? |
TVR on communal central heating system
On 13/02/2014 22:15, polygonum wrote:
On 13/02/2014 22:05, Roger Mills wrote: If only *some* people fit TRVs, they will potentially reduce their own comfort levels whilst continuing to subsidise the high energy consumption of those who don't! For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18 or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you. I don't like it too hot either - but SWMBO doesn't always agree! And I did say "potentially" reduce the comfort level. -- Cheers, Roger ____________ Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom checked. |
TVR on communal central heating system
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TVR on communal central heating system
"harryagain" wrote in message
... "Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , Vir Campestris writes: On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat. It is not - it's a *room* thermostat. The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the *room* temperature. The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is opened for 5 minutes or more. The big problem is they don't work very well. They are more influenced by the nearby radiator temperature than the room temperature. Unless you have one with a remote sensor. I spotted that one before installation, so when the time came I fitted them on the return side of the radiators so that the sensor is horizontal and a tad further away from the heat source. Works very well. Also to the OP remember to leave one radiator without a TRV so that some water can always flow through your system (although I guess this applies more to a single domestic installation.) The bathroom is the best option. -- Woody harrogate three at ntlworld dot com |
TVR on communal central heating system
On 14/02/2014 12:10, Woody wrote:
snip Also to the OP remember to leave one radiator without a TRV so that some water can always flow through your system (although I guess this applies more to a single domestic installation.) The bathroom is the best option. Best place for a rad without a TRV is the same area as the room-stat. |
TVR on communal central heating system
On 14/02/2014 02:46, Bill Wright wrote:
polygonum wrote: For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18 or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you. Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents drape bags of frozen peas over the device. Bill Brilliant. Derek |
TVR on communal central heating system
On 14/02/2014 12:10, Woody wrote:
"harryagain" wrote in message ... "Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , Vir Campestris writes: On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat. It is not - it's a *room* thermostat. The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the *room* temperature. The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is opened for 5 minutes or more. The big problem is they don't work very well. They are more influenced by the nearby radiator temperature than the room temperature. Unless you have one with a remote sensor. I spotted that one before installation, so when the time came I fitted them on the return side of the radiators so that the sensor is horizontal and a tad further away from the heat source. Works very well. Also to the OP remember to leave one radiator without a TRV so that some water can always flow through your system (although I guess this applies more to a single domestic installation.) The bathroom is the best option. The bathroom towel rail (no Rad there) works off the hot water system. When the new boiler was installed I was going to get new radiators installed. Only three out of eight contacted from the local Checkatrade directory wanted to come to quote. They scratched their heads and did not understand how they would do it. I took them next door to a neighbour who had previously replaced her rads replaced and had TVR's. They evidently understood then. By the way we have parquet flooring under the carpets if that makes any difference. Two did not want to do it. Silence from the third. Eventually an E-Mail to him produced a quote of over £3k for three radiators and another Grand if we wanted an additional one in the hall.I did not bother replying. Derek |
TVR on communal central heating system
On 14/02/2014 08:31, harryagain wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , Vir Campestris writes: On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat. It is not - it's a *room* thermostat. The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the *room* temperature. The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is opened for 5 minutes or more. The big problem is they don't work very well. They are more influenced by the nearby radiator temperature than the room temperature. Unless you have one with a remote sensor. We have 51 flats. The penthouses and ones in an annexe have their own systems as do a few others. Probably about 35 use the communal heating. This year the estimated gas cost is £38,500. Less than when we had the old oil fired boilers. Now my Thicko bit again. I don't understand how the water flows between the ones in our flat or round the building. How does an individual thermostatic valve reduce a radiator heat when water of a certain temperature leaves the boiler? If does it by reducing the flow would not less water be leaving the rad to go on to the next rad as it must be continually flowing round this huge building. Mind you I didn't understand it when we had our own system in a house and a flat but at least then I could hear our pump going. Answers and diagrams n the back of a fag packet please:-) Derek |
TVR on communal central heating system
On Friday, February 14, 2014 3:29:00 PM UTC, Derek F wrote:
On 14/02/2014 08:31, harryagain wrote: "Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , Vir Campestris writes: On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat. |
TVR on communal central heating system
"Bill Wright" wrote in message
... polygonum wrote: For some, fitting TRVs might increase comfort! I find I am uncomfortable in the majority of heated indoor locations. Home - well, most often 18 or lower. And quite comfortably, thank you. Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents drape bags of frozen peas over the device. Would bags of ice cubes not be cheaper:-)? -- Adam |
TVR on communal central heating system
On 14/02/2014 11:45, Roger Mills wrote:
I don't like it too hot either - but SWMBO doesn't always agree! And I did say "potentially" reduce the comfort level. You certainly did! In my case it is partner who suffers far more if temperature is higher. I simply get warm/hot and slightly miserable - she gets severe pain. -- Rod |
TVR on communal central heating system
On Friday, February 14, 2014 2:46:21 AM UTC, Bill Wright wrote:
polygonum wrote: Irrelevant, but in some council-run district heating schemes each dwelling has a device on the wall that measures the room temperature and this is used to calculate the bill for that dwelling. So the residents drape bags of frozen peas over the device. Maybe once, but a modern system would have the same sensor controlling the room temperature frozen peas would activate a sensor low level alarm. You'd need a heat meter now I think (flow rate sensor and F&R temperature sensors). Bill |
TVR on communal central heating system
"Onetap" wrote in message ... On Friday, February 14, 2014 3:29:00 PM UTC, Derek F wrote: On 14/02/2014 08:31, harryagain wrote: "Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message ... In article , Vir Campestris writes: On 12/02/2014 19:37, Derek F wrote: We live in a Block with a communal heating and hot water system. It has been suggested that residents at their own expense have TVR's fitted to their radiators to cut down on the communal heating bill. Some have previously replaced their radiators and have TVR's. To my very simple mind I'm not convinced that it will work.... but I will soon be corrected. At the moment if I have a valve full on or turn it down to barely on the radiators stay at the same heat. Derek (cross-posted) It seems to me if the radiator doesn't cool down the valve isn't off. TRVs should cut down the costs - you won't get people having to open the windows to control heat. A very common misunderstanding is that a TRV is a *radiator* thermostat. It is not - it's a *room* thermostat. The radiator will variously go hot/warm/cold, as the TRV maintains the *room* temperature. The big problem with communal heating systems is that people just throw the windows open when it gets too hot. With my home automation, the heating in that zone is switched off if an outside door or window is opened for 5 minutes or more. The big problem is they don't work very well. They are more influenced by the nearby radiator temperature than the room temperature. Unless you have one with a remote sensor. We have 51 flats. The penthouses and ones in an annexe have their own systems as do a few others. Probably about 35 use the communal heating. This year the estimated gas cost is £38,500. Less than when we had the old oil fired boilers. Now my Thicko bit again. I don't understand how the water flows between the ones in our flat or round the building. How does an individual thermostatic valve reduce a radiator heat when water of a certain temperature leaves the boiler? If does it by reducing the flow would not less water be leaving the rad to go on to the next rad as it must be continually flowing round this huge building. Mind you I didn't understand it when we had our own system in a house and a flat but at least then I could hear our pump going. Answers and diagrams n the back of a fag packet please:-) Derek Quick answer there would typically be a pair of flow and return pipes, usually in a services duct in a central stairwell. From that there would be flow and return branches to each flat. Each radiator would connect between the F&R, a TRv would restrict the water flow as the room temperature reached the setpoint. You should be able to turn all your rads off, or just have one or two on without affecting the rest of the block. Here's the thing though. As TRVs close down, the volumetric flow rate decreases and the pump differential pressure increases; look at a pump curve. Hopefully the new boilers had intelligent pumps that throttle back to maintain a constant differential across F&R. If not, it can cause much TRV whistling since they can only cope with a limited pressure differential across them. There are various designs. Different ideas from different times and different fuels. Normally in large systems there is a pump in the boilerhouse that circulates constant temperature water round a single pipe loop/system that is in a central position The individual flats probably each have their own pump abstracting water from this loop and individual control sytems. Not popular these days, inefficient and expensive to install. It's more usual for each flate to have it's own boiler with a gas supply running round the building. (This can bring it's own dangers though.) |
TVR on communal central heating system
On Monday, February 17, 2014 8:31:37 AM UTC, harry wrote:
"Onetap" wrote in message Quick answer there would typically be a pair of flow and return pipes, usually in a services duct in a central stairwell. From that there would be flow and return branches to each flat. Each radiator would connect between the F&R, a TRv would restrict the water flow as the room temperature reached the setpoint. You should be able to turn all your rads off, or just have one or two on without affecting the rest of the block. Here's the thing though. As TRVs close down, the volumetric flow rate decreases and the pump differential pressure increases; look at a pump curve. Hopefully the new boilers had intelligent pumps that throttle back to maintain a constant differential across F&R. If not, it can cause much TRV whistling since they can only cope with a limited pressure differential across them. There are various designs. Different ideas from different times and different fuels. Normally in large systems there is a pump in the boilerhouse that circulates constant temperature water round a single pipe loop/system that is in a central position The individual flats probably each have their own pump abstracting water from this loop and individual control sytems. No. PHXs have become quite common, a simple way of hydraulically separating landlord's and tenant's systems. Not popular these days, inefficient and expensive to install. It's more usual for each flate to have it's own boiler with a gas supply running round the building. (This can bring it's own dangers though.) Only where mains gas is available. |
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