A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales which I suspect was built in about 1890. It’s got a “loft conversion” in which the loft space has been boarded and plastered, nicely carpeted and there’s a Velux window.

It all looks very presentable on the photos I’ve seen on the Estate Agent’s website but it’s approached via a loft ladder, not a proper staircase.

My friend is wondering whether they could have a proper staircase fitted.

This set me wondering about the floor of the loft. Mine was built in 1930 and has relatively substantial timbers holding up the ceiling of the bedrooms but I don’t think they’d be strong enough to support a full loft conversion without some serious insertion of joists – but back to the house in question.

I know some Victorian houses are “over engineered”. How likely is it that this house’s loft would not need stronger timbers to support the floor of the loft?

I’d go and do some poking around and measuring but it’s 150 miles away!

Murmansk wrote:
A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales
which I suspect was built in about 1890.

snip

If anything Victorian ceiling joists are flimsier rather than stronger,
3x1 or so in houses. I was in the loft of a Victorian Methodist church
t'other day with 16" spacing of joists slung over a 12' span between
main timbers (60' or more overall), supporting a 1/2" tongue & groove
ceiling cladding (ie an 'ell of a weight). Joist size? About 3.5x1.5" at
best.

--
Scott

Murmansk wrote:
A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales
which I suspect was built in about 1890. It’s got a “loft conversion”
in which the loft space has been boarded and plastered, nicely carpeted
and there’s a Velux window.

I'm surprised a 1890s terrace wasn't built with an attic and needed to have
the loft converted. Every 1890s terraced house I've been in in Sheffield
was built with an attic. Was it a typical building technique in Wales to
waste so much interior space like that?

JGH

On 29/08/2013 21:28, Murmansk wrote:
A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales which I suspect was built in about 1890. It’s got a “loft conversion” in which the loft space has been boarded and plastered, nicely carpeted and there’s a Velux window.

It all looks very presentable on the photos I’ve seen on the Estate Agent’s website but it’s approached via a loft ladder, not a proper staircase.

My friend is wondering whether they could have a proper staircase fitted.

This set me wondering about the floor of the loft. Mine was built in 1930 and has relatively substantial timbers holding up the ceiling of the bedrooms but I don’t think they’d be strong enough to support a full loft conversion without some serious insertion of joists – but back to the house in question.

I know some Victorian houses are “over engineered”. How likely is it that this house’s loft would not need stronger timbers to support the floor of the loft?

I’d go and do some poking around and measuring but it’s 150 miles away!

I wouldn't trust them unless thy have been reinforced. Mine are 3 x 1's
and at 150 years old, I'm reluctant to go too close to them, certainly
not without some support from below. Maybe a floor would spread the
load just enough for it to stay up.

On 29/08/2013 23:02, wrote:
Murmansk wrote:
A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales
which I suspect was built in about 1890. It’s got a “loft conversion”
in which the loft space has been boarded and plastered, nicely carpeted
and there’s a Velux window.

I'm surprised a 1890s terrace wasn't built with an attic and needed to have
the loft converted. Every 1890s terraced house I've been in in Sheffield
was built with an attic. Was it a typical building technique in Wales to
waste so much interior space like that?


Using the roof space does seem to be a 'Northern thing' IME.


--
Cheers, Rob

On 29/08/2013 21:28, Murmansk wrote:
A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales which I suspect was built in about 1890. It’s got a “loft conversion” in which the loft space has been boarded and plastered, nicely carpeted and there’s a Velux window.

It all looks very presentable on the photos I’ve seen on the Estate Agent’s website but it’s approached via a loft ladder, not a proper staircase.

My friend is wondering whether they could have a proper staircase fitted.

This set me wondering about the floor of the loft. Mine was built in 1930 and has relatively substantial timbers holding up the ceiling of the bedrooms but I don’t think they’d be strong enough to support a full loft conversion without some serious insertion of joists – but back to the house in question.

I know some Victorian houses are “over engineered”. How likely is it that this house’s loft would not need stronger timbers to support the floor of the loft?

I’d go and do some poking around and measuring but it’s 150 miles away!


Highly unlikely it'd be suitable for a living room floor. The joists in
my 1900 terrace are about 3" x 1 1/2" and don't look up to much more
than holding up the ceiling. I don't think anything would go crashing
through the ceiling, but it wouldn't be 'stiff' enough for a living area.

IME such adaptations involve a new suspended floor.

OTH if it's described as a 'conversion' by the estate agent, it'd be
worth asking what it's been converted to, and the basis of any assertion.

--
Cheers, Rob

On 29/08/2013 21:28, Murmansk wrote:
A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales which I suspect was built in about 1890. It’s got a “loft conversion” in which the loft space has been boarded and plastered, nicely carpeted and there’s a Velux window.

It all looks very presentable on the photos I’ve seen on the Estate Agent’s website but it’s approached via a loft ladder, not a proper staircase.

My friend is wondering whether they could have a proper staircase fitted.

This set me wondering about the floor of the loft. Mine was built in 1930 and has relatively substantial timbers holding up the ceiling of the bedrooms but I don’t think they’d be strong enough to support a full loft conversion without some serious insertion of joists – but back to the house in question.

I know some Victorian houses are “over engineered”. How likely is it that this house’s loft would not need stronger timbers to support the floor of the loft?

I’d go and do some poking around and measuring but it’s 150 miles away!

Tell them to look elsewhere. It will not have been authorised and he is
unlikely to get approval for it without a lot of extra costs.


--
Peter Crosland

"Murmansk" wrote in message
...
A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales which
I suspect was built in about 1890. It’s got a “loft conversion” in which the
loft space has been boarded and plastered, nicely carpeted and there’s a
Velux window.

It all looks very presentable on the photos I’ve seen on the Estate Agent’s
website but it’s approached via a loft ladder, not a proper staircase.

My friend is wondering whether they could have a proper staircase fitted.

This set me wondering about the floor of the loft. Mine was built in 1930
and has relatively substantial timbers holding up the ceiling of the
bedrooms but I don’t think they’d be strong enough to support a full loft
conversion without some serious insertion of joists – but back to the house
in question.

I know some Victorian houses are “over engineered”. How likely is it that
this house’s loft would not need stronger timbers to support the floor of
the loft?

I’d go and do some poking around and measuring but it’s 150 miles away!

The main factor is if there is any supporting patition walls beneath to
support it.

Also if there are any hangers off th epurlins to support it.

Both mke a huge difference.

In message , Scott M
writes
Murmansk wrote:
A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales
which I suspect was built in about 1890.

snip

If anything Victorian ceiling joists are flimsier rather than stronger,
3x1 or so in houses. I was in the loft of a Victorian Methodist church
t'other day with 16" spacing of joists slung over a 12' span between
main timbers (60' or more overall), supporting a 1/2" tongue & groove
ceiling cladding (ie an 'ell of a weight). Joist size? About 3.5x1.5"
at best.

3"x2" here. Victorian farm cottages.


--
Tim Lamb

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 08:49:14 +0100, Peter Crosland wrote:

Tell them to look elsewhere. It will not have been authorised and he is
unlikely to get approval for it without a lot of extra costs.

The loft ladder access does wave a "lack of planning permission" flag
but doesn't rule it out of not being done properly. Ask for copies of
plans, permissions, BC certifications etc. If they can't be supplied
walk away, as to get it "approved" will probably striping out and
starting again. OK they want to put in proper stairs, so major works
anyway but...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:11:13 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 08:49:14 +0100, Peter Crosland wrote:

Tell them to look elsewhere. It will not have been authorised and he is
unlikely to get approval for it without a lot of extra costs.

The loft ladder access does wave a "lack of planning permission" flag
but doesn't rule it out of not being done properly. Ask for copies of

But why waste money doing it properly only to skimp on access?


plans, permissions, BC certifications etc. If they can't be supplied
walk away, as to get it "approved" will probably striping out and
starting again. OK they want to put in proper stairs, so major works
anyway but...
--
http://www.voucherfreebies.co.uk

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:30:18 +0100, mogga wrote:

The loft ladder access does wave a "lack of planning permission"
flag
but doesn't rule it out of not being done properly.

But why waste money doing it properly only to skimp on access?

Maybe there isn't space for proper stairs and the "conversion" was
not to make a "habitable space" or before the regs required stairs
etc etc. That's why the suporting paper work needs to be sought and
examined to find out if the "conversion" is legal and if so what
should have been done.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 29/08/2013 21:28, Murmansk wrote:
A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales which I suspect was built in about 1890. It’s got a “loft conversion” in which the loft space has been boarded and plastered, nicely carpeted and there’s a Velux window.

It all looks very presentable on the photos I’ve seen on the Estate Agent’s website but it’s approached via a loft ladder, not a proper staircase.

My friend is wondering whether they could have a proper staircase fitted.

This set me wondering about the floor of the loft. Mine was built in 1930 and has relatively substantial timbers holding up the ceiling of the bedrooms but I don’t think they’d be strong enough to support a full loft conversion without some serious insertion of joists – but back to the house in question.

I know some Victorian houses are “over engineered”. How likely is it that this house’s loft would not need stronger timbers to support the floor of the loft?

I’d go and do some poking around and measuring but it’s 150 miles away!

http://www.home-extension.co.uk/tech2.html.

Should provide the answers.

There is also:

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/buildingc...otes/note7.pdf

but that requires downloading the .pdf

--
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

On 30/08/2013 17:35, Old Codger wrote:
On 29/08/2013 21:28, Murmansk wrote:
A friend of mine is looking at buying a two bed terrace house in Wales
which I suspect was built in about 1890. It’s got a “loft conversion”
in which the loft space has been boarded and plastered, nicely
carpeted and there’s a Velux window.

It all looks very presentable on the photos I’ve seen on the Estate
Agent’s website but it’s approached via a loft ladder, not a proper
staircase.

My friend is wondering whether they could have a proper staircase fitted.

This set me wondering about the floor of the loft. Mine was built in
1930 and has relatively substantial timbers holding up the ceiling of
the bedrooms but I don’t think they’d be strong enough to support a
full loft conversion without some serious insertion of joists – but
back to the house in question.

I know some Victorian houses are “over engineered”. How likely is it
that this house’s loft would not need stronger timbers to support the
floor of the loft?

I’d go and do some poking around and measuring but it’s 150 miles away!

http://www.home-extension.co.uk/tech2.html.

Should provide the answers.

There is also:

http://www.tameside.gov.uk/buildingc...otes/note7.pdf

but that requires downloading the .pdf


My Victorian loft has 4" x 2" joists at roughly 14" centres. Strong
enough for my sawbench and, on and off over the years, huge stacks of
timber and sheet materials. Of course not strong enough for a bedroom though

[Default] On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:11:13 +0100 (BST), a certain
chimpanzee, "Dave Liquorice" ,
randomly hit the keyboard and wrote:

The loft ladder access does wave a "lack of planning permission" flag
but doesn't rule it out of not being done properly.

Planning permission would almost certainly not have been required;
Building Regulations approval on the other hand would have, and with a
pull down ladder, it's virtually guaranteed that it wasn't applied
for.
--
Hugo Nebula
"If no-one on the internet wants a piece of this,
just how far from the pack have I strayed"?

On 30/08/2013 12:54, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:30:18 +0100, mogga wrote:

The loft ladder access does wave a "lack of planning permission"
flag
but doesn't rule it out of not being done properly.

But why waste money doing it properly only to skimp on access?

Maybe there isn't space for proper stairs and the "conversion" was
not to make a "habitable space" or before the regs required stairs
etc etc. That's why the suporting paper work needs to be sought and
examined to find out if the "conversion" is legal and if so what
should have been done.

My parents certainly have an unnofficial loft conversion that was done
to provide a computer room. It is accessed via ladders as that allows
access from the landing. The only place to put a staircase would have
been in one of the bedrooms. OK it's not right, but it's usable for the
purpose and it's not meant as living/sleeping space.

Since I bought my own place and then my sister moved out, they've got
spare space and now the loft room is only used for storage again - still
nicer to access than a dusty old loft.

SteveW

replying to harryagain, mfc wrote:
I have a victorian house and i had my loft made into a storage room the
rafters are around 3x2 and a around 14 inchs apart however i cross menbered
them weth 3x2 than overlayed with a wooden flooring and it is fine etc..the
span was 12 foot to the support wall in the middle of the house from the front
and rear wall of the house

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/uk-diy...or-918933-.htm

On Friday, 30 August 2013 10:30:18 UTC+1, mogga wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:11:13 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 08:49:14 +0100, Peter Crosland wrote:

Tell them to look elsewhere. It will not have been authorised and he is
unlikely to get approval for it without a lot of extra costs.

The loft ladder access does wave a "lack of planning permission" flag
but doesn't rule it out of not being done properly. Ask for copies of

But why waste money doing it properly only to skimp on access?

Probably no room for a staircase without taking an existing room.
Which defeats the object.

On 08/09/2017 09:30, harry wrote:
On Friday, 30 August 2013 10:30:18 UTC+1, mogga wrote:
On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 10:11:13 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:

On Fri, 30 Aug 2013 08:49:14 +0100, Peter Crosland wrote:

Tell them to look elsewhere. It will not have been authorised and he is
unlikely to get approval for it without a lot of extra costs.

The loft ladder access does wave a "lack of planning permission" flag
but doesn't rule it out of not being done properly. Ask for copies of

But why waste money doing it properly only to skimp on access?

Probably no room for a staircase without taking an existing room.
Which defeats the object.

My Victorian house had a tiny "maid's room" in the attic, originally
with a simple staircase which was removed to fit a bathroom. IIRC the
joists were the same size as for the other upstairs rooms.