In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on
the brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor
having a foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short
of explosives.

There's the BMW serial bus hack via the tyre pressure sensors on the
older ones.

Then tell the car to accelerate hard, and put ONE front brake on.



Back in eh 60s some apprentices at an aircraft factory designed an a
antitheft system for the wages van. Unless a hidden switch was flicked
within 3 minutes of starting up the engine would cut out and the
steering would go hard right. Needless to say they were told to take it
off.
--
bert

In message , The Other Mike
writes
On Tue, 6 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, "harryagain"
wrote:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the
brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a foot
brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short of
explosives.

Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.

Buy them an electric car and watch them die of terminal boredom. However,
getting anyone but a complete cretin to accept the gift is going to be a huge
and problem.

But we all know at least one who would.....
--
bert

In message , polygonum
writes
On 06/08/2013 17:28, harryagain wrote:
Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the
brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a foot
brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short of
explosives.

Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.


The obvious suggestion is to replace some of the software. For example,
if you know something of the person's pattern of driving, you might be
able to reason some viable approach. For example, as soon as the car
reaches 75mph, make it open the throttle fully. Especially if it is
capable of a much higher speed. Not that it would be impossible to do
something (such as apply the brakes so hat the speed doesn't rise too
much) and gently steer into a crash barrier. But keeping a level head
is not always easy.

In most cases short of having the Fickle Finger of Fate poised above
the wreckage, I suspect the software would not be inspected after an
incident.

Fraud Exploder did a similar thing but using the cruise control
(allegedly) Came close to killing one or two.
--
bert

bert ] wrote:
In message , polygonum writes
On 06/08/2013 17:28, harryagain wrote:
Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the
brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a foot
brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short of
explosives.

Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.


The obvious suggestion is to replace some of the software. For example,
if you know something of the person's pattern of driving, you might be
able to reason some viable approach. For example, as soon as the car
reaches 75mph, make it open the throttle fully. Especially if it is
capable of a much higher speed. Not that it would be impossible to
do something (such as apply the brakes so hat the speed doesn't
rise too much) and gently steer into a crash barrier. But keeping a
level head is not always easy.

In most cases short of having the Fickle Finger of Fate poised above
the wreckage, I suspect the software would not be inspected after an incident.

Fraud Exploder did a similar thing but using the cruise control
(allegedly) Came close to killing one or two.

An event that only seemed to happen to people wanting a big compo handout.
I drove one for fourteen years, over 300,000 miles. Number of cruise
control malfunctions (0).

Most likely cause, idiots who don't understand the "resume" button.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

Unopened bypass for a little practice?

Is that a euphemism?

Jim K

On 07/08/2013 17:45, Steve Firth wrote:
bert ] wrote:
In message , polygonum writes
On 06/08/2013 17:28, harryagain wrote:
Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the
brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a foot
brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short of
explosives.

Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.


The obvious suggestion is to replace some of the software. For example,
if you know something of the person's pattern of driving, you might be
able to reason some viable approach. For example, as soon as the car
reaches 75mph, make it open the throttle fully. Especially if it is
capable of a much higher speed. Not that it would be impossible to
do something (such as apply the brakes so hat the speed doesn't
rise too much) and gently steer into a crash barrier. But keeping a
level head is not always easy.

In most cases short of having the Fickle Finger of Fate poised above
the wreckage, I suspect the software would not be inspected after an incident.

Fraud Exploder did a similar thing but using the cruise control
(allegedly) Came close to killing one or two.

An event that only seemed to happen to people wanting a big compo handout.
I drove one for fourteen years, over 300,000 miles. Number of cruise
control malfunctions (0).

Most likely cause, idiots who don't understand the "resume" button.

Quite possibly on the payout front!

I did at one time have a Golf. If filled with super unleaded (whatever
it was called) it seemed OK much of the time. But every so often the
revs would move towards around 3000 rpm - speeding up or slowing down as
required and that was very unsettling. I only ever used super unleaded
when I couldn't get ordinary unleaded. Once I realised what was
happening I avoided the super and all was well.

I have always put that experience down to the engine management being
unable to cope and switching to some "I can't handle this so I'll revert
to some fallback settings".

--
Rod

"harryagain" wrote in message
...
Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the
brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a
foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short
of explosives.

Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.

In the old days of black and white movies that was how it was done.

On Wed, 07 Aug 2013 16:34:41 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

In article ,
"mark" wrote:

"Tim Watts" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday 06 August 2013 17:28 harryagain wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the
instant I wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put
my foot on the brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance
wher nor having a foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death
short of explosives.

Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.

And in the films where the car is careering down the hill and the
stupid nonce does not try the gears (and yes, it's a manual).

Easier way is to take an empty syringe with a needle and inject air
into a suitable vein. Death by embolism, nothing to be detected and a
tiny puncture wound unlikely to be noticed. Only theory at the moment.

See "Unnatural Death" by Dorothy L Sayers.

Not undetected as such, but "Lamb to the Slaughter" by Roald Dahl has to
be my favourite for "perfect" crimes.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK: http://www.mirrorservice.org
My posts (including this one) are my copyright and if @diy_forums on
Twitter wish to tweet them they can pay me £30 a post
*lightning surge protection* - a w_tom conductor

On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 16:31:44 +0000, Adrian wrote:

On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, harryagain wrote:

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant
I wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on
the brake.

And the great big red warning light for low fluid, which's been a legal
requirement for decades, would also be a hint.

I s'pose you could severely weaken a line - probably a flexi would be
easiest, so that it'd blow at some stage in the very near future but not
immediately.

All you have to do is leave the special bleed nut spanner on the bleed nut
when you go out for a test drive.

After a while the weight of the spanner undoes the nut enough for brake
fluid to squirt out of the bleed nipple.

After a while you run out of brake fluid........

But then again, in those days, speeds were slower and there wasn't much on
the roads late at night.

Fortunately.

Cheers

Dave R

Oh, and I think they were automatic bleed nipples; the spring loaded ones
to aid bleeding the brakes without an assistant.

On 07/08/2013 10:59, Mentalguy2k8 wrote:

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...

So how do these new engine related serious crashes happen then where
the electronics are tweaked to make it unable to stop?

IIUC, these "bait cars" they use in the US telly programmes are tampered
with so that they can be stopped by remote control when the thief drives
off in them, I'm sure someone with the relevant skills could do
something similar to make the car unstoppable. I know my car has various
"drive by wire" stuff like the throttle and the semi-auto gear box which
are electrical rather than mechanical. I had a hire car with a
push-button ignition a while ago, so a simple over-ride of that part of
the circuit means you wouldn't be able to turn the ignition off either.

I'm sure I read somewhere that pressing and holding the start/stop
button causes a hard-wired shut-off (rather like a PC!)

SteveW

"Mentalguy2k8" wrote in message
...

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...

I agree that's the law, but suppose I decide to try to kill a person
just by wishing them dead? I might have the intent to kill, but mere bad
thoughts have never been known to work in the past. You reckon I could
be convicted, even though it ought to be laughed out of court?


A slight problem of proving the act in that case. However, if it could be
proven that you did and that you genuinely believed it possible to kill
in that way, you could probably be burned as a witch :-)

It's an interesting question though; if you genuinely believe you can kill
someone just by thinking it, and you tried as hard as you could to "think
them dead" in front of witnesses, what would be the legal position? You
intended to kill them, regardless of the reality of your "skills".

My guess would be that you'd be sectioned instead of facing charges.

Tsch.
It can be done. Well known and established fact.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_po...#Bone_pointing

"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on
the brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor
having a foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short
of explosives.

There's the BMW serial bus hack via the tyre pressure sensors on the
older ones.

Then tell the car to accelerate hard, and put ONE front brake on.



Back in eh 60s some apprentices at an aircraft factory designed an a
antitheft system for the wages van. Unless a hidden switch was flicked
within 3 minutes of starting up the engine would cut out and the steering
would go hard right. Needless to say they were told to take it off.


Obvious urban myth.
How would the steering in a 1960's car be made to go hard right?
No-one that had the slightest knowledge of car mechanics would be taken in
by that one.
Be difficult even with todays cars with electric power steering.

But then there's folks here think dealing with nuclear waste is easy.

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, "harryagain"

wrote:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the
brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a
foot
brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short
of
explosives.

Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.

Buy them an electric car and watch them die of terminal boredom. However,
getting anyone but a complete cretin to accept the gift is going to be a
huge
and problem.


Have you ever driven one?
Ah. Another of your strange theories coming from a position of zero
experience/knowledge.

"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , The Other Mike
writes
On Tue, 6 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, "harryagain"

wrote:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the
brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a
foot
brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short
of
explosives.

Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.

Buy them an electric car and watch them die of terminal boredom. However,
getting anyone but a complete cretin to accept the gift is going to be a
huge
and problem.

But we all know at least one who would.....
--
bert

Well that's the three thickest here.
Speaking from positions of zero knowledge or experience.
Oh but then they always do that.

Go and get a horse. Much more exciting.
You can never guarantee exactly what it will do next.

"Brian Gaff" wrote in message
...
So how do these new engine related serious crashes happen then where the
electronics are tweaked to make it unable to stop?

Brian

The days of a steel wire/boden cable going from the accelarator pedal to the
throttle device are long gone.
It's a copper wire now and you are in the hands of your computer.
I

"Mentalguy2k8" wrote in message
...

"harryagain" wrote in message
...
Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the
brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a
foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short
of explosives.

Yes, this does tend to assume that the driver manages to get from his semi
in Guildford to a fast winding unfenced downhill road in the French Alps
without using his brakes and noticing that something is amiss.

I think the brake line versus explosives scenario is neccessary in book
plots because it's (relatively) undetectable, and invariably successful
unless it's the car of the "hero", in which case the car is totalled but
he survives. If the car and driver are blown to smithereens with half a
ton of fertiliser in the boot, I don't think it would take the Police/life
insurers/MI5 bosses long to figure out that foul play was afoot.

I think a cut brake line would be easy to detect. All crashes are
investigated.

"Onetap" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 5:28:27 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.



The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.

Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I

wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the

brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a
foot

brake would kill you.

I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short
of

explosives.



Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.

Writing for a technically illiterate readership.

Some chav tried that on a car belonging to one of his neighbours , about
10 years ago ISTR.

The flexible hydraulic hose he cut was not for the braking system, but the
suspension.
He may have realised the difference in the short time between the Citroen
settling gracefully onto him and his expiry from asphyxiation a short time
later.

Heh. Excellent urban myth
The only thing is, the Citroen sinks/sank to it's lowest level anyway when
the engine is shut off.
Also the brakes and suspension ran off the same system.

Interestingly, you had no brakes at all if the engine was not running.
Handbrake wasn't particularly efficient either.

"Mr Pounder" wrote in message
...

"harryagain" wrote in message
...
Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the
brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a
foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short
of explosives.

Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.

In the old days of black and white movies that was how it was done.

Only the wealthy had cars back then and most people didn't know any better.
And Roy Rogers could unerringly shoot someone down at fifty yards with his
six shooter.

In article , harryagain
wrote:

"Onetap" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 5:28:27 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.



The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.

Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant
I

wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on
the

brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having
a foot

brake would kill you.

I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death
short of

explosives.



Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.

Writing for a technically illiterate readership.

Some chav tried that on a car belonging to one of his neighbours ,
about 10 years ago ISTR.

The flexible hydraulic hose he cut was not for the braking system, but
the suspension. He may have realised the difference in the short time
between the Citroen settling gracefully onto him and his expiry from
asphyxiation a short time later.

Heh. Excellent urban myth The only thing is, the Citroen sinks/sank to
it's lowest level anyway when the engine is shut off.

Not on my C5.

Also the brakes and suspension ran off the same system.

Interestingly, you had no brakes at all if the engine was not running.
Handbrake wasn't particularly efficient either.

not true either

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 08/08/2013 06:30, harryagain wrote:
"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on
the brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor
having a foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short
of explosives.

There's the BMW serial bus hack via the tyre pressure sensors on the
older ones.

Then tell the car to accelerate hard, and put ONE front brake on.



Back in eh 60s some apprentices at an aircraft factory designed an a
antitheft system for the wages van. Unless a hidden switch was flicked
within 3 minutes of starting up the engine would cut out and the steering
would go hard right. Needless to say they were told to take it off.


Obvious urban myth.
How would the steering in a 1960's car be made to go hard right?

If it had rack and pinion steering, add an hydraulic cylinder from the
landing gear of one of the aircraft. For any sort of steering, fit a
large motor to the steering column, using a worm drive to prevent anyone
from being able to resist it.

No-one that had the slightest knowledge of car mechanics would be taken in
by that one.

Any engineer worth his salt could do it easily, given an entire aircraft
factory to play with.

Be difficult even with todays cars with electric power steering.

The large motor would still work.

Colin Bignell

On 08/08/2013 08:14, charles wrote:
In article , harryagain
wrote:

"Onetap" wrote in message
...
....
The flexible hydraulic hose he cut was not for the braking system, but
the suspension. He may have realised the difference in the short time
between the Citroen settling gracefully onto him and his expiry from
asphyxiation a short time later.

Heh. Excellent urban myth The only thing is, the Citroen sinks/sank to
it's lowest level anyway when the engine is shut off.

Not on my C5...

The Citroen DS did slowly lumber up, one wheel at a time, as the system
pressurised. Very odd when you were inside.

Colin Bignell

In article ,
Nightjar wrote:
On 08/08/2013 08:14, charles wrote:
In article , harryagain
wrote:

"Onetap" wrote in message
...
...
The flexible hydraulic hose he cut was not for the braking system, but
the suspension. He may have realised the difference in the short time
between the Citroen settling gracefully onto him and his expiry from
asphyxiation a short time later.

Heh. Excellent urban myth The only thing is, the Citroen sinks/sank to
it's lowest level anyway when the engine is shut off.

Not on my C5...

The Citroen DS did slowly lumber up, one wheel at a time, as the system
pressurised. Very odd when you were inside.

Colin Bignell

they'd obviously got it right 30+ years later.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 09:51:48 +0100, charles wrote:

The flexible hydraulic hose he cut was not for the braking system,
but the suspension. He may have realised the difference in the
short time between the Citroen settling gracefully onto him and his
expiry from asphyxiation a short time later.

Heh. Excellent urban myth The only thing is, the Citroen sinks/sank
to it's lowest level anyway when the engine is shut off.

But not immediately - over quite a few hours, assuming all is in good
condition. A worn brake valve, particularly, will cause the back to drop
down in an hour or two, especially combined with a flat accumulator
sphere.

Not on my C5...

The Citroen DS did slowly lumber up, one wheel at a time, as the system
pressurised. Very odd when you were inside.

they'd obviously got it right 30+ years later.

A lot longer than that - b'sides being nearly 40yrs since the D was
discontinued, it's 58 years since it was launched - and some Tractions
used hydraulic suspension on the back a couple of years earlier.

All but the earliest Xantias and XMs included an extra pressure reservoir
sphere to slow the sinking right down, largely due to the pump being down-
specced at the same time, causing the pump-up from flat to be MUCH slower.

C5s and C6s change the engine-driven pump to an electric one, which is
triggered as soon as the car's unlocked, to pressurise the suspension
even before the engine's started.

On 08/08/2013 09:51, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
Nightjar wrote:

On 08/08/2013 06:30, harryagain wrote:
"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the
instant I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my
foot on
the brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor
having a foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee
death short
of explosives.

There's the BMW serial bus hack via the tyre pressure sensors on the
older ones.

Then tell the car to accelerate hard, and put ONE front brake on.



Back in eh 60s some apprentices at an aircraft factory designed an a
antitheft system for the wages van. Unless a hidden switch was flicked
within 3 minutes of starting up the engine would cut out and the
steering
would go hard right. Needless to say they were told to take it off.


Obvious urban myth.
How would the steering in a 1960's car be made to go hard right?

If it had rack and pinion steering, add an hydraulic cylinder from the
landing gear of one of the aircraft. For any sort of steering, fit a
large motor to the steering column, using a worm drive to prevent
anyone from being able to resist it.

No-one that had the slightest knowledge of car mechanics would be
taken in
by that one.

Any engineer worth his salt could do it easily, given an entire
aircraft factory to play with.

Be difficult even with todays cars with electric power steering.

The large motor would still work.

Colin Bignell

Don't forget this is harry we are talking about. Who doesn't know his
arse from a hole in the ground.

Certainly, to me, the idea that the steering would go hard right made it
much more believable. It is exactly the sort of unnecessary
embellishment I would expect from a group of engineering apprentices.

Colin Bignell

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 6:49:43 AM UTC+1, harry wrote:

Heh. Excellent urban myth

The only thing is, the Citroen sinks/sank to it's lowest level anyway when

the engine is shut off.

Also the brakes and suspension ran off the same system.


Not an urban myth, actually happened, reported in the papers as I have said.
Whether those reports were accurate is another matter.
You could probably find some reference to the incident if you were to rummage through newspaper cuttings libraries.

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 10:28:32 +0100, Tim Streater wrote:

C5s and C6s change the engine-driven pump to an electric one, which is
triggered as soon as the car's unlocked, to pressurise the suspension
even before the engine's started.

I take it the similar noise I hear on my dizzle C4 is the fuel pump?

Probably. C4s use springs. As, it should be said, do pikey-spec current-
shape C5s. Only the old shape and Exclusive-spec current shape C5s use
hydraulics.

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 9:38:00 AM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 08/08/2013 08:14, charles wrote:

In article , harryagain

wrote:



"Onetap" wrote in message

...

...

The flexible hydraulic hose he cut was not for the braking system, but

the suspension. He may have realised the difference in the short time

between the Citroen settling gracefully onto him and his expiry from

asphyxiation a short time later.



Heh. Excellent urban myth The only thing is, the Citroen sinks/sank to

it's lowest level anyway when the engine is shut off.



Not on my C5...



The Citroen DS did slowly lumber up, one wheel at a time, as the system

pressurised. Very odd when you were inside.

There was also hydragas or hydrolastic suspension fitted on many BL cars, Princess etc., ISTR.
I've no idea how that system worked.

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 08:41:34 -0700, Onetap wrote:

There was also hydragas or hydrolastic suspension fitted on many BL
cars, Princess etc., ISTR.
I've no idea how that system worked.

Front-to-rear interlinking, but no pressure generated, purely captive -
hence so many sitting on the bumpstops, because they'd not met the man in
the brown coat's bike pump for a while.

Onetap wrote:
On Thursday, August 8, 2013 6:49:43 AM UTC+1, harry wrote:

Heh. Excellent urban myth

The only thing is, the Citroen sinks/sank to it's lowest level anyway when

the engine is shut off.

Also the brakes and suspension ran off the same system.


Not an urban myth, actually happened, reported in the papers as I have said.

I don't believe a word of it.

Whether those reports were accurate is another matter.

Whether they existed outside your imagination another.

You could probably find some reference to the incident if you were to
rummage through newspaper cuttings libraries.

Off you go then. Until you do what you say is purest bull****.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

"harryagain" wrote:
"Onetap" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 5:28:27 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.



The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.

Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant I

wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on the

brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a
foot

brake would kill you.

I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death short
of

explosives.



Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.

Writing for a technically illiterate readership.

Some chav tried that on a car belonging to one of his neighbours , about
10 years ago ISTR.

The flexible hydraulic hose he cut was not for the braking system, but the
suspension.
He may have realised the difference in the short time between the Citroen
settling gracefully onto him and his expiry from asphyxiation a short time
later.

Heh. Excellent urban myth
The only thing is, the Citroen sinks/sank to it's lowest level anyway when
the engine is shut off.

No that's cobblers. It takes time for Cit to sink on its suspension. My
Cits were all still at normal ride height after being parked overnight. A
Citroen less than ten years old will (probably) have Hydractive 3
suspension and will not settle on its suspension.

Also the brakes and suspension ran off the same system.

Which tends to confirm an element of the tale.

Interestingly, you had no brakes at all if the engine was not running.

Again cobblers. There was enough reserve of pressure in the system to allow
the brakes to work.

Handbrake wasn't particularly efficient either.

Cobblers.

I think the OP's story is ********. But then so is yours.

--
€¢DarWin|
_/ _/

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 08/08/2013 06:30, harryagain wrote:
"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant
I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on
the brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor
having a foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death
short
of explosives.

There's the BMW serial bus hack via the tyre pressure sensors on the
older ones.

Then tell the car to accelerate hard, and put ONE front brake on.



Back in eh 60s some apprentices at an aircraft factory designed an a
antitheft system for the wages van. Unless a hidden switch was flicked
within 3 minutes of starting up the engine would cut out and the
steering
would go hard right. Needless to say they were told to take it off.


Obvious urban myth.
How would the steering in a 1960's car be made to go hard right?

If it had rack and pinion steering, add an hydraulic cylinder from the
landing gear of one of the aircraft. For any sort of steering, fit a large
motor to the steering column, using a worm drive to prevent anyone from
being able to resist it.

So how would the steering wheel be turned whilst the motor was unenergised/



No-one that had the slightest knowledge of car mechanics would be taken
in
by that one.

Any engineer worth his salt could do it easily, given an entire aircraft
factory to play with.

Be difficult even with todays cars with electric power steering.

The large motor would still work.

Colin Bignell

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 16:56:39 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:

Not an urban myth, actually happened, reported in the papers as I have
said.

I don't believe a word of it.

I'm not sure I believe it's ever _happened_, as in some attempted
assassin really _did_ meet his maker this way.

But it's certainly feasible enough. Just chop the main rear suspension
feed, and that back end's coming down at a rate of knots in a cloud of
pressurised green fluid. Or into the engine bay and take the main pipe
from accumulator to distribution block. Or from distribution block to
front height corrector.

You're rolling around under there in the dark with a torch in your mouth
and a pair of side cutters in one hand, just take your pick of any of the
several bits of "brake pipe" that'd have exactly the same effect. They
all look pretty much the same.

Or even, ffs, the metal rod from the height selector lever to the front
and rear height correctors.

Back when I was running my ol' CX GTi, a mate borrowed it whilst I was
away. Parked outside his house one night, the alarm went off. Except it
had no alarm. He jumped in, fired it up, it rose - and a very ****ed-off
cat shot out from where it was not just trapped but getting gently more
squished as the car sank. True. I promise you.

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 16:56:39 +0000, Steve Firth wrote:

Handbrake wasn't particularly efficient either.

Cobblers.

How many CXs have you had, Steve? The handbrake's a once-a-year MOT high
point thing.

All hydraulic Cits have the handbrake on the front discs. No drum-in-
disc. Not on the rear drums. They've all got rear trailing arms, so as
they sink, the wheelbase lengthens. Not great if you've left it in gear.
And we all know how **** disc handbrakes can be at the best of times -
especially if they're on the front, with allowance having to be made for
the steering angles.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
...
"harryagain" wrote:
"Onetap" wrote in message
...
On Tuesday, August 6, 2013 5:28:27 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.



The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.

Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant
I

wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on
the

brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor having a
foot

brake would kill you.

I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death
short
of

explosives.



Stupid plot. These authors must be like journalists, thick as ****.

Writing for a technically illiterate readership.

Some chav tried that on a car belonging to one of his neighbours , about
10 years ago ISTR.

The flexible hydraulic hose he cut was not for the braking system, but
the
suspension.
He may have realised the difference in the short time between the
Citroen
settling gracefully onto him and his expiry from asphyxiation a short
time
later.

Heh. Excellent urban myth
The only thing is, the Citroen sinks/sank to it's lowest level anyway
when
the engine is shut off.

No that's cobblers. It takes time for Cit to sink on its suspension. My
Cits were all still at normal ride height after being parked overnight. A
Citroen less than ten years old will (probably) have Hydractive 3
suspension and will not settle on its suspension.

Also the brakes and suspension ran off the same system.

Which tends to confirm an element of the tale.

Interestingly, you had no brakes at all if the engine was not running.

Again cobblers. There was enough reserve of pressure in the system to
allow
the brakes to work.

Handbrake wasn't particularly efficient either.

Cobblers.

The hancbrake was crap. It worked on the front discs which were located
immediately in frontof the dashboard.
Four little pads the size of old pennies.
There was a weird system of levers and pulleys.

I once put my foot on the footbrake of mine (engine not ruinning) and let
the handbrake off. It ran away though the pedal was as hard as a rock.

As an ex owner, I know you are full of ****.

On Thu, 08 Aug 2013 18:57:32 +0100, harryagain wrote:

The hancbrake was crap. It worked on the front discs which were located
immediately in frontof the dashboard.
Four little pads the size of old pennies.

So you're thinking of a GS. Handbrake on the G was actually quite decent,
because the inboard discs meant that the cable compromises on the CX etc
weren't a problem.

But **** adjustment, as ever, could be.

There was a weird system of levers and pulleys.

No, not really. The spade handle out the dash just pulled a lever pivoted
on the bulkhead, which then operated the cable balancer then the cables
directly on towards the calipers. Pretty much exactly as any other
handbrake, but a lot less cable and/or rod. Just much more visible.

On 08/08/2013 18:35, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 08/08/2013 06:30, harryagain wrote:
"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the instant
I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot on
the brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor
having a foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death
short
of explosives.

There's the BMW serial bus hack via the tyre pressure sensors on the
older ones.

Then tell the car to accelerate hard, and put ONE front brake on.



Back in eh 60s some apprentices at an aircraft factory designed an a
antitheft system for the wages van. Unless a hidden switch was flicked
within 3 minutes of starting up the engine would cut out and the
steering
would go hard right. Needless to say they were told to take it off.


Obvious urban myth.
How would the steering in a 1960's car be made to go hard right?

If it had rack and pinion steering, add an hydraulic cylinder from the
landing gear of one of the aircraft. For any sort of steering, fit a large
motor to the steering column, using a worm drive to prevent anyone from
being able to resist it.

So how would the steering wheel be turned whilst the motor was unenergised/...

The drive would be disconnected under normal conditions and engaged with
a dog clutch when required. However, bearing in mind this was something
thought up by engineering apprentices, it would probably have ended up
being something far more complex.

Colin Bignell

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 5:56:39 PM UTC+1, Steve Firth wrote:

I don't believe a word of it.



Whether those reports were accurate is another matter.



Whether they existed outside your imagination another.



You could probably find some reference to the incident if you were to

rummage through newspaper cuttings libraries.



Off you go then. Until you do what you say is purest bull****.


Ah, Firth has pitched in.

Sorry Stevie, you're wrong.
Chav bloke was found pinned under a car with a sharp instrument.

You're the main bull**** merchant and it usually involves your fables about how awesome Steve Firth is.

I can distinctly recall the press reports and have no reason to lie about it.
That's all there is to it.

On 08/08/2013 06:41, harryagain wrote:

The days of a steel wire/boden cable going from the accelarator pedal to the
throttle device are long gone.
It's a copper wire now and you are in the hands of your computer.
I


Both my car and my wife's have a cable and direct mechanical control of
the butterfly. OK, they aren't new, but those days are not "long gone".
Though I must admit I've driven a few cars recently with noticeable
throttle lag that could easily be a slow reacting butterfly motor.

Andy

On Thursday, August 8, 2013 1:25:39 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 08/08/2013 09:51, Tim Streater wrote:

In article ,

Nightjar wrote:



On 08/08/2013 06:30, harryagain wrote:

"bert" ] wrote in message

...

In message , Bob Eager

writes

On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, harryagain wrote:



Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.



The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.

Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the

instant I

wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my

foot on

the brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor

having a foot brake would kill you.

I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee

death short

of explosives.



There's the BMW serial bus hack via the tyre pressure sensors on the

older ones.



Then tell the car to accelerate hard, and put ONE front brake on.







Back in eh 60s some apprentices at an aircraft factory designed an a

antitheft system for the wages van. Unless a hidden switch was flicked

within 3 minutes of starting up the engine would cut out and the

steering

would go hard right. Needless to say they were told to take it off.





Obvious urban myth.

How would the steering in a 1960's car be made to go hard right?



If it had rack and pinion steering, add an hydraulic cylinder from the

landing gear of one of the aircraft. For any sort of steering, fit a

large motor to the steering column, using a worm drive to prevent

anyone from being able to resist it.



No-one that had the slightest knowledge of car mechanics would be

taken in

by that one.



Any engineer worth his salt could do it easily, given an entire

aircraft factory to play with.



Be difficult even with todays cars with electric power steering.



The large motor would still work.



Colin Bignell



Don't forget this is harry we are talking about. Who doesn't know his

arse from a hole in the ground.



Certainly, to me, the idea that the steering would go hard right made it

much more believable. It is exactly the sort of unnecessary

embellishment I would expect from a group of engineering apprentices.


You can make a Prius do something similar, allegedly.

http://hackaday.com/2013/07/26/defco...ivers-control/

'Can' does not mean 'should'.

"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 08/08/2013 18:35, harryagain wrote:
"Nightjar" wrote in message
...
On 08/08/2013 06:30, harryagain wrote:
"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Bob Eager
writes
On Tue, 06 Aug 2013 17:28:27 +0100, harryagain wrote:

Reading one of SWMBO's crime novels.

The victim is murdered by cutting a car brake line.
Though it was a pre dual circuit car I reckon I would know the
instant
I
wnet to start the engine there was a fault as I always put my foot
on
the brake. Even without that, there are few circumstance wher nor
having a foot brake would kill you.
I can't think of a single way to sabotage a car to guarantee death
short
of explosives.

There's the BMW serial bus hack via the tyre pressure sensors on the
older ones.

Then tell the car to accelerate hard, and put ONE front brake on.



Back in eh 60s some apprentices at an aircraft factory designed an a
antitheft system for the wages van. Unless a hidden switch was flicked
within 3 minutes of starting up the engine would cut out and the
steering
would go hard right. Needless to say they were told to take it off.


Obvious urban myth.
How would the steering in a 1960's car be made to go hard right?

If it had rack and pinion steering, add an hydraulic cylinder from the
landing gear of one of the aircraft. For any sort of steering, fit a
large
motor to the steering column, using a worm drive to prevent anyone from
being able to resist it.

So how would the steering wheel be turned whilst the motor was
unenergised/...

The drive would be disconnected under normal conditions and engaged with a
dog clutch when required. However, bearing in mind this was something
thought up by engineering apprentices, it would probably have ended up
being something far more complex.

Colin Bignell

And I suppose the victim won't notice their car is missing for weeks whilst
all this is being done?