"polygonum" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/2013 19:30, dennis@home wrote:
On 19/05/2013 18:15, mcp wrote:
On Sun, 19 May 2013 10:27:10 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

If they want into the EU they will have to have the Euro.
Britain is the only country with a separate currency and the Scotts
can't keep the pound as they will have different economic activity and
we don't want an independent country to be able to interfere with us.
The EU will want them to have the Euro.

The Euro is only used by 17 of the current 27 EU members. Countries
that wish to join the Euro must successfully participate in the ERM
for at least 2 years beforehand. There is no requirement for EU
countries to join the ERM so Scotland can't be forced to have the
Euro. The Pound and the Bank of England are the property of the UK so
they are partly Scottish. As the pound is a freely convertible
currency there is very little the rest of the former UK could do to
stop an independant Scotland (or anyone else) using it.


So we could start printing and using US dollars?

Is it so very difficult to read "using" rather than "printing" (rather
than both linked by "and")?

The fact that Scotland could not print Bank of England currency is a
problem in that it precludes some of the controls over currency that
sovereign states have. Like printing more! And setting interest rates. If
an independent Scotland didn't like what BoE did, they might not have much
beyond words to get a policy changed.

And that is in fact what happened with the Irish pound when they chose to
leave.

"charles" wrote in message
...
In article om,
dennis@home wrote:
On 19/05/2013 07:06, harry wrote:

The problem is the Scots don't know what they are voting for and what
they'll be getting on many topics. They'll only find out when it's too
late.

Well they probably want to be in the EU and the council of Europe and
the European economic area.


If they want into the EU they will have to have the Euro.
Britain is the only country with a separate currency

not so. A number of the newer members do not use the Euro. We were in The
Czech Republic 2 weeks ago. 2018 is the tentative date for their use of
the Euro.

And it remains to be seen how many planning to do that
change their mind now the **** has hit the fan with the euro.

On 19/05/2013 18:01, mcp wrote:
On Sun, 19 May 2013 11:05:57 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 18/05/2013 18:52, mcp wrote:
...
I don't know where you are getting your figures from but with 9.9% of
income and 9.3% of spending it is not Scotland who is subsidised.
Unemployment in Scotland is lower than in the rest of the UK and
health is a devolved power, already included in Scottish spending.


As I said, you can only claim 9.9% if you include all tax income from
North Sea oil. which Salmond does, but HM Treasury does not. The non-oil
tax revenue from Scotland is 8.3%.

A geographic share of North Sea oil adds up to 9.9% of income, not all
oil.


Whatever. Scotland still gets £10bn more paid to it than it pays into
the exchequer, even if you include the oil revenue. £16bn if you don't.

Colin Bignell

On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur, then we will start to see
sane economic policy.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of 'this
is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

On Sun, 19 May 2013 23:46:12 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 19/05/2013 18:01, mcp wrote:
On Sun, 19 May 2013 11:05:57 +0100, Nightjar
wrote:

On 18/05/2013 18:52, mcp wrote:
...
I don't know where you are getting your figures from but with 9.9% of
income and 9.3% of spending it is not Scotland who is subsidised.
Unemployment in Scotland is lower than in the rest of the UK and
health is a devolved power, already included in Scottish spending.

As I said, you can only claim 9.9% if you include all tax income from
North Sea oil. which Salmond does, but HM Treasury does not. The non-oil
tax revenue from Scotland is 8.3%.

A geographic share of North Sea oil adds up to 9.9% of income, not all
oil.

Whatever. Scotland still gets £10bn more paid to it than it pays into
the exchequer, even if you include the oil revenue. £16bn if you don't.

So you are counting the defeit as some kind of subsidy to Scotland
despite England having a much greater defict per head?

On May 19, 7:30*pm, "dennis@home"
wrote:
On 19/05/2013 18:15, mcp wrote:









On Sun, 19 May 2013 10:27:10 +0100, "dennis@home"
wrote:

If they want into the EU they will have to have the Euro.
Britain is the only country with a separate currency and the Scotts
can't keep the pound as they will have different economic activity and
we don't want an independent country to be able to interfere with us.
The EU will want them to have the Euro.

The Euro is only used by 17 of the current 27 EU members. Countries
that wish to join the Euro must successfully participate in the ERM
for at least 2 years beforehand. There is no requirement for EU
countries to join the ERM so Scotland can't be forced to have the
Euro. The Pound and the Bank of England are the property of the UK so
they are partly Scottish. As the pound is a freely convertible
currency there is very little the rest of the former UK could do to
stop an independant Scotland (or anyone else) using it.

So we could start printing and using US dollars?

Panama and Ecuador have used US dollars for years.

On 20/05/13 01:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur, then we will start to see
sane economic policy.

+1

'Austerity' will continue not to work as long as people (especially
politicians) continue to think that everything will be alright if only
they can borrow a bit more to tide them over or find a few coppers down
the back of the sofa. There is no money, get used to it.

--
djc

On Monday 20 May 2013 08:01 harry wrote in uk.d-i-y:

Panama and Ecuador have used US dollars for years.

I did not know that. I work with an Ecuadorian - I must ask him why...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.


Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.


then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.
Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

"djc" wrote in message
...
On 20/05/13 01:09, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur, then we will start to see
sane economic policy.

+1

'Austerity' will continue not to work as long as people (especially
politicians) continue to think that everything will be alright if only
they can borrow a bit more to tide them over

Have fun explaining why it has worked for america.

or find a few coppers down the back of the sofa. There is no money, get
used to it.

Some ran the same line in the great depression too.

Turned out to be just plain wrong.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of an
era? An era of growth?

That is unlikely given that the great depression wasnt.

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor

Yes.

and still are poor.

That does not mean that they never saw any growth again tho.

That did not happen with Spain, Portugal, Holland,
or even Rome and Greece or Turkey or China or Japan.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.

That is not right with economic growth.

The planet is only as big as it is.

Yes, population may well stop growing.

It has already in the modern first world if you
take out immigration.

But that is not the same thing as economic growth stopping.

then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.

People like me have nothing to do with what politicians
do in recessions. They have noticed that if they do not
attempt to do something about recessions, the voters
decide to see if the other side can do any better.

dennis wrote:
If they want into the EU they will have to have the Euro.
Britain is the only country with a separate currency

No it isn't. There are 17 EU countries in the Euro zone and 10
countries outside it.

JGH

On 20/05/2013 03:37, mcp wrote:
.....
So you are counting the defeit as some kind of subsidy to Scotland
despite England having a much greater defict per head?

I don't recall using the term subsidy at any stage. I have, however,
repeated pointed out that your figures are wrong, because they rely upon
Scotland receiving a geographical share of oil revenue, rather than a
per capita share.

Colin Bignell

On May 20, 8:57*am, Tim Watts wrote:
On Monday 20 May 2013 08:01 harry wrote in uk.d-i-y:

*Panama and Ecuador have used US dollars for years.

I did not know that. I work with an Ecuadorian - I must ask him why...


Ecudador is one of these places with constant inflation/economic
chaos. About 2000 ago they abandoned their own currency and took up US
$

Bit here on the whole sad story.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecuador#Currency

On May 20, 1:56*am, "Simon Brown" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in ...

On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of 'this
is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.


The Roman one didn't.

On May 20, 9:42*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.



then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.

We definitely need a zero growth economic system.
And zero growth population to go with it.

jgharston wrote:
dennis wrote:
If they want into the EU they will have to have the Euro.
Britain is the only country with a separate currency

No it isn't. There are 17 EU countries in the Euro zone and 10
countries outside it.

JGH

I see dennis is now our resident expert on the Euro.

BTW is your email valid?

--
Adam

"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 20, 1:56 am, "Simon Brown" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in
...

On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this
is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.


The Roman one didn't.

That wasn't a recession, they got overwhelmed.

Plenty have lost wars too.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 20, 9:42 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.



then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.

We definitely need a zero growth economic system.

There is no such animal.

And zero growth population to go with it.

All modern first world countries aren't even self
replacing now if you take out immigration.

On May 21, 9:31*pm, "Simon Brown" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

On May 20, 1:56 am, "Simon Brown" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in
...

On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this
is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

The Roman one didn't.

That wasn't a recession, they got overwhelmed.

Plenty have lost wars too.

Rubbish.
Their currency became worthless and there was economic and political
collapse.
Almost the same as the USSR.

On May 21, 9:33*pm, "Simon Brown" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...









On May 20, 9:42 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.

then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.
We definitely need a zero growth economic system.

There is no such animal.

There'd better be.
Or we need/will get a war/pestilence to kill a few billions off.

harry writes:

On May 20, 9:42=A0am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.



then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.

We definitely need a zero growth economic system.
And zero growth population to go with it.

You're correct, of course, but somehow people don't want to believe it.

In a book, or a footnote within a book, Isaac Asimov played with the
current exponentially-increassing population numbers to prove that
within a historically short space of time it would be 'standing room
only' on the planet, and within a galactically short space of time the
entire galaxy would consist of human flesh.

Some virulent new bug - a worse Ebola maybe - will eventually come
along and kill us before we have time to discover what to do about it.


--
Windmill, Use t m i l l
J.R.R. Tolkien:- @ O n e t e l . c o m
All that is gold does not glister / Not all who wander are lost

"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 21, 9:31 pm, "Simon Brown" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...

On May 20, 1:56 am, "Simon Brown" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in
...

On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this
is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

The Roman one didn't.

That wasn't a recession, they got overwhelmed.

Plenty have lost wars too.

Rubbish.

We'll see...

Their currency became worthless

Wrong.

and there was economic and political collapse.

But not JUST a recession.

Almost the same as the USSR.

Nothing like the USSR in fact.

And the economic problem the USSR had did come to an end too.

"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 21, 9:33 pm, "Simon Brown" wrote:
"harry" wrote in message

...









On May 20, 9:42 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end
of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.

then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.
We definitely need a zero growth economic system.

There is no such animal.

There'd better be.

There isn't.

Or we need/will get a war/pestilence to kill a few billions off.

No. Not one modern first world country is even self
replacing on population now if you take out immigration.

The birth rate is dropping now everywhere except
where the birth rate is right down in the noise now.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...fertility_rate

The biggest country in the world fixed the population problem for them.

In message , Simon Brown
writes


"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 20, 9:42 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.



then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.

We definitely need a zero growth economic system.

There is no such animal.

There was prior to the industrial revolution.
And zero growth population to go with it.

All modern first world countries aren't even self
replacing now if you take out immigration.

--
bert

On May 22, 3:56*pm, bert ] wrote:
In message , Simon Brown
writes









"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 20, 9:42 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.

then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.

We definitely need a zero growth economic system.

There is no such animal.

There was prior to the industrial revolution.

And zero growth population to go with it.

All modern first world countries aren't even self
replacing now if you take out immigration.

--
bert

The present economy/population was built on cheap fossil fuels.
As these disappear, chemical/fossil fuel driven agriculture will
collapse and there will be mass starvation.
We are seeing the begining of it now.
We can do it the hard way by ignoring the facts or adjust in a
controlled fashion.
Or just pull up the drawbridge here in the UK.
The latter seems most feasible.

On 22/05/13 17:56, harry wrote:
On May 22, 3:56 pm, bert ] wrote:
In message , Simon Brown
writes









"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 20, 9:42 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.
the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.
No, all recessions come to an end eventually.
Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of
an era? An era of growth?
Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.
Once people stop expecting growth to occur,
Growth will not stop.
Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.
then we will start to see sane economic policy.
Fantasy, particularly in recessions.
Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.
We definitely need a zero growth economic system.
There is no such animal.
There was prior to the industrial revolution.

And zero growth population to go with it.
All modern first world countries aren't even self
replacing now if you take out immigration.
--
bert
The present economy/population was built on cheap fossil fuels.
As these disappear, chemical/fossil fuel driven agriculture will
collapse and there will be mass starvation.

unless we build a lot of nukes

We are seeing the begining of it now.
We can do it the hard way by ignoring the facts or adjust in a
controlled fashion.
Or just pull up the drawbridge here in the UK.
The latter seems most feasible.
still need some energy to maintain population above about 7 million


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 22/05/13 18:21, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

still need some energy to maintain population above about 7 million

7 million is probably about all we need. It was enough to see off
Napoleon.

yebbut what do we do with the rest?



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Simon Brown wrote:

The biggest country in the world fixed the population problem for
them.

The Catholics will not be pleased.

--
Adam

"Windmill" wrote in message
...
harry writes:

On May 20, 9:42=A0am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.



then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.

We definitely need a zero growth economic system.
And zero growth population to go with it.

You're correct, of course, but somehow people don't want to believe it.

In a book, or a footnote within a book, Isaac Asimov played with the
current exponentially-increassing population numbers to prove that
within a historically short space of time it would be 'standing room
only' on the planet, and within a galactically short space of time the
entire galaxy would consist of human flesh.

Some virulent new bug - a worse Ebola maybe - will eventually come
along and kill us before we have time to discover what to do about it.

What will actually happen is that the birth rate will keep
dropping everywhere until there is no population problem.

Already birth rates are dropping world wide without exception
except where the birth rate is already down in the noise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...fertility_rate

"bert" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Simon Brown
writes


"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 20, 9:42 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.



then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.

We definitely need a zero growth economic system.

There is no such animal.

There was prior to the industrial revolution.

No there was not. There was a lot of economic growth
in Britain before the industrial revolution. That's why
the British weren't still living in caves and mud huts etc.

And zero growth population to go with it.

All modern first world countries aren't even self
replacing now if you take out immigration.

--
bert

"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 22, 3:56 pm, bert ] wrote:
In message , Simon Brown
writes









"harry" wrote in message
...
On May 20, 9:42 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
On 20/05/13 01:56, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 19/05/13 17:07, harry wrote:
When/if the recession ends we will see the true price of energy.

the recession isn't a temporary pause in growth: It is the start
of
'this is as good as it gets'.

No, all recessions come to an end eventually.

Well if they are in fact recessions...but what it its simply the end
of
an era? An era of growth?

Historically, many cultures that were once rich became poor and still
are poor.

Once people stop expecting growth to occur,

Growth will not stop.

Growrh MUST stop.
The planet is only as big as it is.

then we will start to see sane economic policy.

Fantasy, particularly in recessions.

Its people like you who are the problem, frankly.

We definitely need a zero growth economic system.

There is no such animal.

There was prior to the industrial revolution.

And zero growth population to go with it.

All modern first world countries aren't even self
replacing now if you take out immigration.

The present economy/population was built on cheap fossil fuels.

And before they showed up other stuff like wood was used instead.

As these disappear,

We will start using something else, just like we
did when we moved from wood to fossil fuels.

chemical/fossil fuel driven agriculture will collapse

No, it will just adjust like it did before
fossil fuels were ever used in agriculture.

and there will be mass starvation.

No. The obesity epidemic shows that we
have no problem with mass starvation.

During WW2 when fossil fuels and chemicals
for agriculture were very hard to come by, there
was no mass starvation, people just grew their
own food without using that stuff and were
actually better off health wise for that.

We are seeing the begining of it now.

Like hell we are. We no longer see any mass starvation
at all except when the country has degenerated into the
most obscene levels of civil war or civil strife or are actually
stupid enough to let some fool like Kim Jong Il rule the roost.

We can do it the hard way by ignoring the
facts or adjust in a controlled fashion.

We ALWAYS adjust in a controlled fashion,
like we did during WW2 when fossil fuels
were much harder to come by for agriculture.

You don't even need fossil fuels for agriculture,
biodiesel works fine in agricultural engines.

Or just pull up the drawbridge here in the UK.

Yes, you could certainly return to what was done in WW2.

The latter seems most feasible.

No.

"ARW" wrote in message
...
Simon Brown wrote:

The biggest country in the world fixed the population problem for
them.

The Catholics will not be pleased.

They aren't too thrilled about the fact that
their devotees just ignore what the fools in
Rome proclaim on birth control right thruout
the modern first world now.

Tough titty.

On 22/05/13 22:02, Simon Brown wrote:


"
Yes, you could certainly return to what was done in WW2.

you have your head in the clouds mate.

WE didnt 'do without fossil fuels' in WWII, we did with a lot less
fossil fuel, and it was very tough.

there is not the land area in the uk to grow even one percent of the
biofuel we would need. WE had serious reserves of coal in those days, too.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/05/13 22:02, Simon Brown wrote:


"
Yes, you could certainly return to what was done in WW2.

you have your head in the clouds mate.

WE didnt 'do without fossil fuels' in WWII,

Not much fossil fuel was used in the agriculture being discussed.

And we have since worked out how to use biodiesel in ag machines too.

we did with a lot less fossil fuel, and it was very tough.

But nothing like the mass starvation that he claimed is guaranteed.

there is not the land area in the uk to grow even one percent of the
biofuel we would need.

That is just plain wrong with the agriculture that
he claimed would collapse.

WE had serious reserves of coal in those days, too.

And now have coal seam gas instead.

On 22/05/13 22:54, Simon Brown wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/05/13 22:02, Simon Brown wrote:


"
Yes, you could certainly return to what was done in WW2.

you have your head in the clouds mate.

WE didnt 'do without fossil fuels' in WWII,

Not much fossil fuel was used in the agriculture being discussed.

No? what did the tractors run on?? and why was the battle of the
atlantic so vital? cos we were importing half our food and most of our
fuel from america.
And how doi te food get from farm and portt to teh cities?
Hint: it wasnt on hors drawn wagins or canal nboats.


And we have since worked out how to use biodiesel in ag machines too.

we did with a lot less fossil fuel, and it was very tough.

But nothing like the mass starvation that he claimed is guaranteed.


it is guranteed. The last time we were fully renewable the population
was less than 4 million. Its now 70 million.

there is not the land area in the uk to grow even one percent of the
biofuel we would need.

That is just plain wrong with the agriculture that
he claimed would collapse.

It is in fact entirely correvct.

WE had serious reserves of coal in those days, too.

And now have coal seam gas instead.
that isn't not having fossil fuel is it?

we have maybe 20 years of gas and then nada.

nuclear or megadeath.

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/05/13 22:54, Simon Brown wrote:


"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/05/13 22:02, Simon Brown wrote:


"
Yes, you could certainly return to what was done in WW2.

you have your head in the clouds mate.

WE didnt 'do without fossil fuels' in WWII,

Not much fossil fuel was used in the agriculture being discussed.

No? what did the tractors run on?? and why was the battle of the atlantic
so vital?

To move the vast amount of stuff the military was using.

cos we were importing half our food

Not during the war itself.

and most of our fuel from america.
And how doi te food get from farm and portt to teh cities?
Hint: it wasnt on hors drawn wagins or canal nboats.

Mostly by rail.

And we have since worked out how to use biodiesel in ag machines too.

we did with a lot less fossil fuel, and it was very tough.

But nothing like the mass starvation that he claimed is guaranteed.

it is guranteed.

No.

The last time we were fully renewable the population was less than 4
million. Its now 70 million.

And plenty of places manage to feed themselves with much
higher population numbers than that with very little fossil
fuel or chemicals used in their agriculture in say the last
couple of decades.

there is not the land area in the uk to grow even one percent of the
biofuel we would need.

That is just plain wrong with the agriculture that
he claimed would collapse.

It is in fact entirely correvct.

Now explain why it did not happen in all those
places that used very little fossil fuel or chemicals
in their agriculture in the last couple of decades.

WE had serious reserves of coal in those days, too.

And now have coal seam gas instead.

that isn't not having fossil fuel is it?

Yes, but that coal is going to last for hundreds of years.

we have maybe 20 years of gas

It is going to last a lot longer than that.

and then nada.

That is just plain wrong too.

nuclear or megadeath.

Now explain why it did not happen in all those
places that used very little fossil fuel or chemicals
in their agriculture in the last couple of decades.

On May 23, 3:11*am, "Simon Brown" wrote:
"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in ...









On 22/05/13 22:54, Simon Brown wrote:

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
On 22/05/13 22:02, Simon Brown wrote:

"
Yes, you could certainly return to what was done in WW2.

you have your head in the clouds mate.

WE didnt 'do without fossil fuels' in WWII,

Not much fossil fuel was used in the agriculture being discussed.
No? what did the tractors run on?? and why was the battle of the atlantic
so vital?

To move the vast amount of stuff the military was using.

cos we were importing half our food

Not during the war itself.

and most of our fuel from america.
And how doi te food get from farm and portt to teh cities?
Hint: it wasnt on hors drawn wagins or canal nboats.

Mostly by rail.

And we have since worked out how to use biodiesel in ag machines too.

we did with a lot less fossil fuel, and it was very tough.

But nothing like the mass starvation that he claimed is guaranteed.
it is guranteed.

No.

The last time we were fully renewable the population was less than 4
million. Its now 70 million.

And plenty of places manage to feed themselves with much
higher population numbers than that with very little fossil
fuel or chemicals used in their agriculture in say the last
couple of decades.

there is not the land area in the uk to grow even one percent of the
biofuel we would need.

That is just plain wrong with the agriculture that
he claimed would collapse.

It is in fact entirely correvct.

Now explain why it did not happen in all those
places that used very little fossil fuel or chemicals
in their agriculture in the last couple of decades.

WE had serious reserves of coal in those days, too.

And now have coal seam gas instead.
that isn't not having fossil fuel is it?

Yes, but that coal is going to last for hundreds of years.

we have maybe 20 years of gas

It is going to last a lot longer than that.

and then nada.

That is just plain wrong too.

nuclear or megadeath.

Now explain why it did not happen in all those
places that used very little fossil fuel or chemicals
in their agriculture in the last couple of decades.

The other factor of course being global warming which will disprupt
agriculture however it manifests itself.

On Wednesday, May 22, 2013 6:21:29 PM UTC+1, Tim Streater wrote:
In article ,

The Natural Philosopher wrote:



still need some energy to maintain population above about 7 million



7 million is probably about all we need. It was enough to see off

Napoleon.



--

Tim



"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed,

nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted" -- Bill of Rights 1689

Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo by a coalition force of troops not just British troops so I don't think it can be claimed as a British, or judging by the rhetoric in this thread, English victory. Troops lead incidentally by an Irishman