On 03/05/2013 00:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The way it goes is this. You start your powerstation and then when its
in phase with the grid, you connect it. At this point if you pull torque
off it. it will be a motor driven BY the grid, and as you increase
torque on it, it will start to phase lead the grid slightly and push
power onto it. You can control the voltage using the exciters - you
match that to the grid voltage.

OK, I think I get it. It's being a small fixed amount ahead of the grid
phase that means you are pushing power in. If you shove less steam into
the turbine you'll lead by less, and be putting less current in even
though your RMS voltage is the same.

But no-one answered my question - what has overall control of the grid
frequency? Some guy with a meter and a phone, calling the CCGT stations?

Andy

On Fri, 03 May 2013 09:46:04 +0100, Andy Champ wrote:

On 03/05/2013 00:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The way it goes is this. You start your powerstation and then when its
in phase with the grid, you connect it. At this point if you pull torque
off it. it will be a motor driven BY the grid, and as you increase
torque on it, it will start to phase lead the grid slightly and push
power onto it. You can control the voltage using the exciters - you
match that to the grid voltage.

OK, I think I get it. It's being a small fixed amount ahead of the grid
phase that means you are pushing power in. If you shove less steam into
the turbine you'll lead by less, and be putting less current in even
though your RMS voltage is the same.

But no-one answered my question - what has overall control of the grid
frequency? Some guy with a meter and a phone, calling the CCGT stations?

There is a mark one eyeball in use although this is a last resort

Unless there is a failure of duplicated data comms links no one uses the phone
to dispatch generation in the UK. The vast majority is predetermined a number of
hours or days ahead by keyboard pressing.

In terms of what controls the frequency there is legislation, a number of UK
Grid Codes that all generators have to comply with, upfront commercial
agreements between the Grid System Operator (National Grid) and a number of UK
Generation operators, and prediction processes at Grid System Control to get the
load and demand matched at all times

In the case of commercial agreements a generator may opt to support frequency
between the standard limits of 49.5 to 50.5 Hz and get paid nothing by the Grid
System Operator, but if they offer to support system frequency from say 49Hz to
51Hz they get paid more during the time that response is required.

How this is achieved in practice is the setting the generator governors* to
achieve the desired dynamic frequency response. The target value is **always**
50Hz. The response either side of that programmable depending on the commercial
arrangements.

* now just a couple of near anonymous boxes in a rack each with a processor
driving an actuator on a steam valve or a fuelling valve.


--

On 03/05/13 09:46, Andy Champ wrote:
On 03/05/2013 00:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The way it goes is this. You start your powerstation and then when its
in phase with the grid, you connect it. At this point if you pull torque
off it. it will be a motor driven BY the grid, and as you increase
torque on it, it will start to phase lead the grid slightly and push
power onto it. You can control the voltage using the exciters - you
match that to the grid voltage.

OK, I think I get it. It's being a small fixed amount ahead of the
grid phase that means you are pushing power in. If you shove less
steam into the turbine you'll lead by less, and be putting less
current in even though your RMS voltage is the same.

But no-one answered my question - what has overall control of the grid
frequency? Some guy with a meter and a phone, calling the CCGT stations?

Andy
essentially yes.

at one level.

at another level the jennys are on governors. they will push harder when
the freq drops.

the grid central gets called in when the jennys cant cope and the freq.
is still falling...

--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On May 3, 9:42*am, Andy Champ wrote:
On 03/05/2013 07:10, harry wrote:

The grid frequency is controlled by the speedof the generators. *The
only way to change that is change their speed. *They are all linked
together no single generator can run faster than the others.
They are locked together as surely as they were all on the same shaft
by the alternating current they generate.

I think not. They can be a few degrees out of phase; those that lead are
putting power in, and those that trail are taking power out. I dare say
the pumped-storage systems do both at different times.

Andy

The Load Angle may change but the frequency does not.

On Fri, 03 May 2013 12:11:19 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

On 03/05/13 09:46, Andy Champ wrote:
On 03/05/2013 00:17, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
The way it goes is this. You start your powerstation and then when its
in phase with the grid, you connect it. At this point if you pull torque
off it. it will be a motor driven BY the grid, and as you increase
torque on it, it will start to phase lead the grid slightly and push
power onto it. You can control the voltage using the exciters - you
match that to the grid voltage.

OK, I think I get it. It's being a small fixed amount ahead of the
grid phase that means you are pushing power in. If you shove less
steam into the turbine you'll lead by less, and be putting less
current in even though your RMS voltage is the same.

But no-one answered my question - what has overall control of the grid
frequency? Some guy with a meter and a phone, calling the CCGT stations?

Andy
essentially yes.

at one level.

at another level the jennys are on governors. they will push harder when
the freq drops.

the grid central gets called in when the jennys cant cope and the freq.
is still falling...

Who or what do you mean by the term "grid central"

--

On 02/05/2013 09:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Tell that to the German factories running synchronous motors that are
having f to intsall massive UPS/inverters because sudden fluctuations in
the mains frequency due to sun coming out/wind gust coming along are
destroying the machines the motors drive.



I have to point out that the solar inverters have a very stringent
frequency range over which they are allowed to operate.

They will drop out if the grid exceeds that range.

On Fri, 03 May 2013 08:57:05 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

In addition Japan abandonning nuclear so suddenly will also drive oil
and coal prices much higher in the short to medium term.

The Japanese goverment is trying to get their nukes back online but the
public aren't happy. I don't think they have much oil/coal generation but
do have gas and a recent Japanese delegation to Russia talked about gas
supplies...

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 04/05/13 00:02, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Fri, 03 May 2013 08:57:05 +0100, Martin Brown wrote:

In addition Japan abandonning nuclear so suddenly will also drive oil
and coal prices much higher in the short to medium term.
The Japanese goverment is trying to get their nukes back online but the
public aren't happy. I don't think they have much oil/coal generation but
do have gas and a recent Japanese delegation to Russia talked about gas
supplies...

Think they had a change of government and are sayng 'nukes on or 30%
inflation; your choice' or something.

Its pathetic. Fukushima was a mere minor ripple in a massive disaster
that that killed thousands and decimated huge tracts of land.

The problem is the Japs don't trust their politicians even more than we
don't ours.

And the politicos don't understand radiation themselves.

So they cant be convincing.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 02/05/2013 16:26, harry wrote:
On May 2, 4:10 pm, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On May 2, 4:03 pm, harry wrote:











Frequency is less important now than it was as there are fewer timing
devices rely on it.

Tell that to the German factories running synchronous motors that are
having f to intsall massive UPS/inverters because sudden fluctuations in
the mains frequency due to sun coming out/wind gust coming along are
destroying the machines the motors drive.

Some times I wonder if you actually believe all this ******** harry, or
whether its just you way of amusing yourself by pretending that you do,
or whether you actually are a SPIV and make a living out of selling
useless irrelevant technology to gullible people.

--
Ineptocracy

The reason the power from turbines is rectified then inverted via a
grid link inverter is so they avoid all the problems of
synchronisation.
In different wind speeds they need to run at different speeds to be
efficient.

Gosh! You don't say!

There are much bigger ones available too.

Wow!

So you half wit, the wind turbines are not synchonised with the grid.

Er, where did he say they were?

And PV panels generate DC so they are not synchronised either.

Where did anyone claim otherwise?

Which all goes to show how full of **** you are ranting on about
topics you have zero knowledge about.

You have just demonstrated you know f**k all about what happens to the
grid due to fluctuations in renewable energy.

MBQ

Grid tie inverters generate whatever frequency they "see" on the gird
connection. So their operation has no effect of the grid frequency.

Nonsense. If you introduce a sudden surge of extra current then it will
result in the grid frequency rising. The grid tie inverter will then
have to track it. So the cause is indirect, but it still happens.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On May 4, 6:38*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/05/2013 16:26, harry wrote:









On May 2, 4:10 pm, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On May 2, 4:03 pm, harry wrote:

Frequency is less important now than it was as there are fewer timing
devices rely on it.

Tell that to the German factories running synchronous motors that are
having f to intsall massive UPS/inverters because sudden fluctuations in
the mains frequency due to sun coming out/wind gust coming along are
destroying the machines the motors drive.

Some times I wonder if you actually believe all this ******** harry, or
whether its just you way of amusing yourself by pretending that you do,
or whether you actually are a SPIV and make a living out of selling
useless irrelevant technology to gullible people.

--
Ineptocracy

The reason the power from turbines is rectified then inverted via a
grid link inverter is so they avoid all the problems of
synchronisation.
In different wind speeds they need to run at different speeds to be
efficient.

Gosh! You don't say!

There are much bigger ones available too.

Wow!

So you half wit, the wind turbines are not synchonised with the grid.

Er, where did he say they were?

And PV panels generate DC so they are not synchronised either.

Where did anyone claim otherwise?

Which all goes to show how full of **** you are ranting on about
topics you have zero knowledge about.

You have just demonstrated you know f**k all about what happens to the
grid due to fluctuations in renewable energy.

MBQ

Grid tie inverters generate whatever frequency they "see"
on the gird connection. *So their operation has no effect of the grid
frequency.

Nonsense. If you introduce a sudden surge of extra current then it will
result in the grid frequency rising. The grid tie inverter will then
have to track it. So the cause is indirect, but it still happens.

--

Why should a "sudden surge of extra current" change the frequency?
I can see you have no knowledge at all of this topic.

On 05/05/13 07:43, harry wrote:
On

Why should a "sudden surge of extra current" change the frequency?
I can see you have no knowledge at all of this topic.
Why would it not?

I can see you have no knowledge at all of this topic.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 05/05/13 07:43, harry wrote:
On

Why should a "sudden surge of extra current" change the frequency?
I can see you have no knowledge at all of this topic.
Why would it not?

I can see you have no knowledge at all of this topic.


He's spent quite lot of time and wasted many bytes of data transmission
proving this over the last few days.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 05/05/2013 07:43, harry wrote:
On May 4, 6:38 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/05/2013 16:26, harry wrote:









On May 2, 4:10 pm, "Man at B&Q" wrote:
On May 2, 4:03 pm, harry wrote:

Frequency is less important now than it was as there are fewer timing
devices rely on it.

Tell that to the German factories running synchronous motors that are
having f to intsall massive UPS/inverters because sudden fluctuations in
the mains frequency due to sun coming out/wind gust coming along are
destroying the machines the motors drive.

Some times I wonder if you actually believe all this ******** harry, or
whether its just you way of amusing yourself by pretending that you do,
or whether you actually are a SPIV and make a living out of selling
useless irrelevant technology to gullible people.

--
Ineptocracy

The reason the power from turbines is rectified then inverted via a
grid link inverter is so they avoid all the problems of
synchronisation.
In different wind speeds they need to run at different speeds to be
efficient.

Gosh! You don't say!

There are much bigger ones available too.

Wow!

So you half wit, the wind turbines are not synchonised with the grid.

Er, where did he say they were?

And PV panels generate DC so they are not synchronised either.

Where did anyone claim otherwise?

Which all goes to show how full of **** you are ranting on about
topics you have zero knowledge about.

You have just demonstrated you know f**k all about what happens to the
grid due to fluctuations in renewable energy.

MBQ

Grid tie inverters generate whatever frequency they "see"
on the gird connection. So their operation has no effect of the grid
frequency.

Nonsense. If you introduce a sudden surge of extra current then it will
result in the grid frequency rising. The grid tie inverter will then
have to track it. So the cause is indirect, but it still happens.

--

Why should a "sudden surge of extra current" change the frequency?

Because it will result in a sudden unloading of the spinning generating
kit. This will result in a rise in rotation speed (yes even if you have
a second order control system built into the governor)

I can see you have no knowledge at all of this topic.

It must seem like magic to you harry.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message
,
harry writes

Nonsense. If you introduce a sudden surge of extra current then it will
result in the grid frequency rising. The grid tie inverter will then
have to track it. So the cause is indirect, but it still happens.

--

Why should a "sudden surge of extra current" change the frequency?
I can see you have no knowledge at all of this topic.


Well, du-uh harry

Have you TOTALLY missed the many discussions on phase angle which have
been had recently here


--
geoff

On 03/05/2013 09:33, The Other Mike wrote:
Then grid frequency is determined by the governor set point on all the
generators connected to the grid at that particular moment. In the UK they all
control to 50Hz.

Thanks Mike, I think I have it. Fortunately I don't have to implement it

Andy

On 03/05/2013 17:55, harry wrote:
On May 3, 9:42 am, Andy Champ wrote:
On 03/05/2013 07:10, harry wrote:

The grid frequency is controlled by the speedof the generators. The
only way to change that is change their speed. They are all linked
together no single generator can run faster than the others.
They are locked together as surely as they were all on the same shaft
by the alternating current they generate.

I think not. They can be a few degrees out of phase; those that lead are
putting power in, and those that trail are taking power out. I dare say
the pumped-storage systems do both at different times.


The Load Angle may change but the frequency does not.

If they were on the same shaft the load angle would not be able to
change. But I think we're all on the same page

Andy

On 02/05/2013 06:10, harry wrote:

Lot of people round here need to get their heads out of their arses.
You actually need a zero energy house.

Nice in theory... now what about the bulk of the UK housing stock that
is not and never will be?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On May 6, 5:39*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/05/2013 06:10, harry wrote:

Lot of people round here need to get their heads out of their arses.
You actually need a zero energy house.

Nice in theory... now what about the bulk of the UK housing stock that
is not and never will be?


All new houses should be built to this standard. Plenty could be
converted.

On 06/05/2013 18:47, harry wrote:
On May 6, 5:39 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 02/05/2013 06:10, harry wrote:

Lot of people round here need to get their heads out of their arses.
You actually need a zero energy house.

Nice in theory... now what about the bulk of the UK housing stock that
is not and never will be?


All new houses should be built to this standard. Plenty could be
converted.

Where "plenty" amounts to a small minority...


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30/04/2013 15:17, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:40:01 -0700 (PDT), Man at B&Q wrote:

I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to
selectively cut the power to appliances. Whole supply maybe but not
just the Fridge.

The ones being installed now are not smart meters at all. They just
get called that because it sounds sexy and ignorant journos are
involved.

Whilst I'm inclined to believe the latter part I don't think the first is
quite right. Agreed the early "smart meters" may have been not much more
than a meter with built in energy monitor but I think the ones going in
now are the proper "smart" ones with remote reading that doesn't require
visit or even a van driving down the street polling the meters.

Years ago I read a Phd student's work on powerline communication and
IIRC the first electricity meter to provide remote reading did so over
the supply lines - in 1890 !!!!

SteveW

TNP wrote:

But the real issue is how much load you could take off the grid anyway.
And as you will;l realise its at best 10% if that, and then only for a
few hours max.

I doubt that.

Reduction to: 5mins 4hours
------------- ----- ------
Water heating 0 50%
Space heating 0 50-66%
Stored heating 0 50%
kettle 50% -
fridge 0 -
washing machine 80% 50%
Oven 50% 80-100%
Lighting - -
Sml appliances - -
PCs - -
TVs, stereos - -
Shower - -

One could knock 50% off peak demand if wanted.



SO it is easy to see that smart grids do feck all to actually cope with
renewable intermittentcy, in exactly the same way that renewable energy
does feck all to reduce carbon emissions.

They both represent solutions to the problem of appearing to Do
Something About Climate change whilst making a ****ing big profit and
not actually doing anything at all. All they have to do is convince an
unsophisticated electorate with no real idea about how anything works,
with a plausible narrative that conforms to their belief systems A
country full of harrys, in fact.

Its pure political fraud. But then, what isn't?

The point of demand management is to enable less total generating capacity to be installed, and less grid capacity. Its about cost saving.


NT

On Thursday, May 9, 2013 11:25:51 AM UTC+1, wrote:
TNP wrote:



But the real issue is how much load you could take off the grid anyway.

And as you will;l realise its at best 10% if that, and then only for a

few hours max.



I doubt that.



Reduction to: 5mins 4hours

------------- ----- ------

Water heating 0 50%

Space heating 0 50-66%

Stored heating 0 50%

kettle 50% -

fridge 0 -

washing machine 80% 50%

Oven 50% 80-100%

Lighting - -

Sml appliances - -

PCs - -

TVs, stereos - -

Shower - -



One could knock 50% off peak demand if wanted.

But peak demand is during the day, from indusrty that's why they brought in economy 7, to use the 'night electricity'
I doubt you could really just cut off industry by 50% without causing some serious issues.
Looking at the daily demand we find that over the weekends we use less generlally speaking.

If you look at yearly demand there's not that much difernce between the seasons the most noticable drop is during the christmas break.



SO it is easy to see that smart grids do feck all to actually cope with

renewable intermittentcy, in exactly the same way that renewable energy

does feck all to reduce carbon emissions.



They both represent solutions to the problem of appearing to Do

Something About Climate change whilst making a ****ing big profit and

not actually doing anything at all. All they have to do is convince an

unsophisticated electorate with no real idea about how anything works,

with a plausible narrative that conforms to their belief systems A

country full of harrys, in fact.



Its pure political fraud. But then, what isn't?



The point of demand management is to enable less total generating capacity to be installed, and less grid capacity. Its about cost saving.





NT

On 09/05/2013 11:59, whisky-dave wrote:

One could knock 50% off peak demand if wanted.

But peak demand is during the day, from indusrty that's why they
brought in economy 7, to use the 'night electricity' I doubt you
could really just cut off industry by 50% without causing some
serious issues. Looking at the daily demand we find that over the
weekends we use less generlally speaking.

During the winter, peak demand is early evening - typically about 5pm
and stays there through til around 10pm. Economy 7 kicks in a midnight
when the demand has fallen away to its night time level.

If you look at yearly demand there's not that much difernce between
the seasons the most noticable drop is during the christmas break.

Jan through to march seem like the heaviest months.




--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On May 9, 11:59*am, whisky-dave wrote:
On Thursday, May 9, 2013 11:25:51 AM UTC+1, wrote:
TNP wrote:

But the real issue is how much load you could take off the grid anyway.

And as you will;l realise its at best 10% if that, and then only for a

few hours max.

I doubt that.

Reduction to: * * *5mins * 4hours

------------- * * *----- * ------

Water heating * * *0 * * * 50%

Space heating * * *0 * * * 50-66%

Stored heating * * 0 * * * 50%

kettle * * * * * * 50% * * -

fridge * * * * * * 0 * * * -

washing machine * *80% * * 50%

Oven * * * * * * * 50% * * 80-100%

Lighting * - * * * -

Sml appliances * * - * * * -

PCs * * * * * * * *- * * * -

TVs, stereos * * * - * * * -

Shower * * * * * * - * * * -

One could knock 50% off peak demand if wanted.

But peak demand is during the day, from indusrty that's why they brought in economy 7, to use the 'night electricity'
I doubt you could really just cut off industry by 50% without causing some serious issues.
Looking at the daily demand we find that over the weekends we use less generlally speaking.

If you look at yearly demand there's not that much difernce between the seasons the most noticable drop is during the christmas break.









SO it is easy to see that smart grids do feck all to actually cope with

renewable intermittentcy, in exactly the same way that renewable energy

does feck all to reduce carbon emissions.

They both represent solutions to the problem of appearing to Do

Something About Climate change whilst making a ****ing big profit and

not actually doing anything at all. All they have to do is convince an

unsophisticated electorate with no real idea about how anything works,

with a plausible narrative that conforms to their belief systems A

country full of harrys, in fact.

Its pure political fraud. But then, what isn't?

The point of demand management is to enable less total generating capacity to be installed, and less grid capacity. Its about cost saving.

NT

PV panels help meet day time peak demand.
We just need lots more.

On 10/05/2013 08:36, harry wrote:
PV panels help meet day time peak demand.
We just need lots more.

The big peak is the evening meal in winter, when "everyone" comes home
from work and puts the heating and cooker on. It's dark by then.

Andy

On 10/05/13 08:36, harry wrote:
PV panels help meet day time peak demand.
teh peak is not in the daytime

We just need lots more.
we would be better of without any at all.



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 10/05/13 09:00, Andy Champ wrote:
On 10/05/2013 08:36, harry wrote:
PV panels help meet day time peak demand.
We just need lots more.

The big peak is the evening meal in winter, when "everyone" comes home
from work and puts the heating and cooker on. It's dark by then.

Andy
Harry is just being 'on message' with the renewable lobby, since his
livelihood depends on it.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On Friday, May 10, 2013 9:55:43 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/05/13 08:36, harry wrote:

PV panels help meet day time peak demand.

teh peak is not in the daytime



We just need lots more.

we would be better of without any at all.







--

Ineptocracy



(in-ep-toc’-ra-cy) – a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

Whatever happened to the night time soalr cells that worked via infra-red ?
They were making them a few years ago .

In message ,
whisky-dave writes
On Friday, May 10, 2013 9:55:43 AM UTC+1, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 10/05/13 08:36, harry wrote:

Whatever happened to the night time soalr cells that worked via infra-red ?
They were making them a few years ago .


All bought up by the spanish


--
geoff