http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...echnology.html


--

In article , The Other Mike
writes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-fridge-Power-
giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

Yeah, I read that in the pub yesterday (buggered if I'm paying for the
Mail, and I washed my hands after). Typical Daily Heil scaremongering
crap.

Dynamic Demand have been flogging this idea for years.

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm

--
(\_/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

"It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and freezers switching will be for a few seconds and
only occasionally"

A bit like the assurances that police tazers would only be used in extreme circumstances....


--
Terry Fields

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rother-switch-
fridge-Power-giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

I know it's the Mail but WTF do you start with the ******** it spouts.

"Can shut down supply without warning - or your consent"

There will be something buried in the User Guide that gives your consent
by the simple act using the appliance. That happens already for lots of
things.

In the graphic it says demand surged during the Royal Wedding. I doubt it
was during but immediatly afterwards when everyone leapt up for a cuppa
and a wee (pumps coming on to supply water and take it away). Not even
sure that 2.4 GW is correct either and if it is it's probably one of, if
not the, largest load pickups ever and can be planned for and is why we
have Dinorwic.

"Sensors in domestic appliances would check this frequency every 0.2
seconds, and if it fell to 47Hz - a level that would risk blackouts - the
devices would kick in and shut fridges, freezers and ovens down."

Only "risk" blackouts at 47 Hz? The limit 50 Hz is +/- 0.5 Hz. I reckon
if it ever got down to 47 Hz there would be power stations tripping out
left right and center.

"If the frequency of the supply nudged towards 52 Hz, the devices could
make fridges become cooler, increasing demand and balancing out the
system."

Pardon, do I really see what I'm reading? HTF can a switch make a device
use more energy? Or are they saying it switches on when it doesn't need
to?

"'It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and
freezers switching will be for a few seconds and only occasionally.'"

Well if they don't cut in until 47 Hz I think "occasionally" is likely to
be "never" or if they do will they switch the appliance off before the
supply anyway.

Very much looks like the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels have been
taken to some very nice meals.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Monday 29 April 2013 13:56 Terry Fields wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

"It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and freezers
switching will be for a few seconds and only occasionally"

A bit like the assurances that police tazers would only be used in extreme
circumstances....



On people soak in flammable liquids...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Monday 29 April 2013 13:24 Mike Tomlinson wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article , The Other Mike
writes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...switch-fridge-
Power-
giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

Yeah, I read that in the pub yesterday (buggered if I'm paying for the
Mail, and I washed my hands after). Typical Daily Heil scaremongering
crap.

Dynamic Demand have been flogging this idea for years.

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/

http://www.dynamicdemand.co.uk/grid.htm


Rather elegant...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

Mike Tomlinson wrote:
In article , The Other Mike
writes

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-fridge-Power-
giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

Yeah, I read that in the pub yesterday (buggered if I'm paying for the
Mail, and I washed my hands after). Typical Daily Heil scaremongering
crap.

No worries, it won't add £40 to the price of appliances, and it will be
very easy to circumvent. It will be like the little modules hidden under
the rim of the wheeliebins. Very easy to remove. First time it causes a
problem there will be a nice market in fridge debugging.

Amusing to think that those with windmills will have their blades
whizzing round like buggery when the wind blows but their fridges will
still go off.

Bill

In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rother-switch-
fridge-Power-giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

I know it's the Mail but WTF do you start with the ******** it spouts.

I haven't read that, but I listened to the spokesman from the
european power generators association (whatever it was called)
being interviewed on this issue at lunchtime today.

"Can shut down supply without warning - or your consent"

That's the main function of smart meters, which I already mentioned
in another thread.

There will be something buried in the User Guide that gives your consent
by the simple act using the appliance. That happens already for lots of
things.

In the graphic it says demand surged during the Royal Wedding. I doubt it
was during but immediatly afterwards when everyone leapt up for a cuppa
and a wee (pumps coming on to supply water and take it away). Not even
sure that 2.4 GW is correct either and if it is it's probably one of, if
not the, largest load pickups ever and can be planned for and is why we
have Dinorwic.

"Sensors in domestic appliances would check this frequency every 0.2
seconds, and if it fell to 47Hz - a level that would risk blackouts - the
devices would kick in and shut fridges, freezers and ovens down."

Only "risk" blackouts at 47 Hz? The limit 50 Hz is +/- 0.5 Hz. I reckon
if it ever got down to 47 Hz there would be power stations tripping out
left right and center.

This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

"If the frequency of the supply nudged towards 52 Hz, the devices could
make fridges become cooler, increasing demand and balancing out the
system."

And probably all the substation fuses will pop, dropping loads of
load suddenly and unexpectedly, causing the frequency to rocket up
through positive feedback as all loads are shed.

Pardon, do I really see what I'm reading? HTF can a switch make a device
use more energy? Or are they saying it switches on when it doesn't need
to?

There's actually a large timing range for things like fridges (and
even more, freezers) that can cycle on/off without going outside
temperature spec. They do represent an excellent opportunity to store
energy. For example, if you know you're going to have a mass toilet
flushing and kettle boiling at the end of a royal wedding/funeral,
you could switch on freezers beforehand so they drop an extra 1C,
and then switch them off when the extra load is needed, and they then
won't use any more power for an extended period whilst you get the
toilet flushing and kettle boiling over and done with.

You are in effect using them to store electricity, but rather than
storing the electricity directly which is horribly expensive, you
are using them to convert the electricity to the final product in
advance, and store that (coldness in this case).

(No, this wasn't covered in the interview.)

"'It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and
freezers switching will be for a few seconds and only occasionally.'"

Well if they don't cut in until 47 Hz I think "occasionally" is likely to
be "never" or if they do will they switch the appliance off before the
supply anyway.

All our renewable generation automatically drops off the grid well
before 47Hz (supposing we're lucky enough for the wind to be blowing
and the sun shining in the first place, at the time of some major
power shortage).

Very much looks like the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels have been
taken to some very nice meals.

Power grids are struggling to think how to keep the lights on given
politicians inability to build any viable power generation over the
last 25 years, as the old plant ceases to work.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 29/04/2013 12:55, The Other Mike wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...echnology.html

You note the way the politicians like to shift the blame so that its the
national grid / power companies that are the bad boys here...

Do you suppose they would have chosen to integrate renewables were it
not for political influence?


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

"Can shut down supply without warning - or your consent"

That's the main function of smart meters, which I already mentioned
in another thread.

I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to
selectively cut the power to appliances. Whole supply maybe but not just
the Fridge.

There's actually a large timing range for things like fridges (and
even more, freezers) that can cycle on/off without going outside
temperature spec. They do represent an excellent opportunity to store
energy. For example, if you know you're going to have a mass toilet
flushing and kettle boiling at the end of a royal wedding/funeral,
you could switch on freezers beforehand so they drop an extra 1C,
and then switch them off when the extra load is needed, and they then
won't use any more power for an extended period whilst you get the
toilet flushing and kettle boiling over and done with.

Yes, that makes sense but that *isn't* what this device claims to be able
to do, Smart Meters *might*. This device is autonomous it just looks at
the frequency and switches off below 47 Hz on above 52 Hz(*). It's not
centrally controlled from anywhere. I guess one could artificially
increase the grid frequency to that extreme to trigger the devices but
I'd put that into the "bit risky" category. Power stations will trip off
on over frequency just as well as they do for under frequency.

(*) One would hope there would be some spread in the actual frequencies
that trigger the devices. Suddenly shedding or loading the grid with the
nations fridges might not be a good idea. I think it would require a bit
more control than just component tolerances as well.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
Tim Watts writes:
On Monday 29 April 2013 13:56 Terry Fields wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

"It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and freezers
switching will be for a few seconds and only occasionally"

A bit like the assurances that police tazers would only be used in extreme
circumstances....



On people soak in flammable liquids...

I can't help thinking that anyone to which that wasn't blindingly
obvious, should never have been given access to a tazer, or any
other weapon for that matter, not even a truncheon.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Monday 29 April 2013 15:54 Andrew Gabriel wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Tim Watts writes:
On Monday 29 April 2013 13:56 Terry Fields wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

"It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and
freezers
switching will be for a few seconds and only occasionally"

A bit like the assurances that police tazers would only be used in
extreme circumstances....



On people soak in flammable liquids...

I can't help thinking that anyone to which that wasn't blindingly
obvious, should never have been given access to a tazer, or any
other weapon for that matter, not even a truncheon.


This is plod we're talking about...

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://squiddy.blog.dionic.net/

http://www.sensorly.com/ Crowd mapping of 2G/3G/4G mobile signal coverage

Reading this on the web? See:
http://wiki.diyfaq.org.uk/index.php?title=Usenet

On Monday, April 29, 2013 3:53:31 PM UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:



"Can shut down supply without warning - or your consent"



That's the main function of smart meters, which I already mentioned

in another thread.



I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to

selectively cut the power to appliances.


That's what I was thinking, the appliances would either have to have some sort of TX/RX such as bluetooth or could be controlled through the mains but the fridge again would have to have the switching electronic circuits built in.

Whole supply maybe but not just

the Fridge.

That would be worrying, one could be playing an important game just about to reach a new level and the power goes off !!!!!!


There's actually a large timing range for things like fridges (and

even more, freezers) that can cycle on/off without going outside

temperature spec. They do represent an excellent opportunity to store

energy. For example, if you know you're going to have a mass toilet

flushing and kettle boiling at the end of a royal wedding/funeral,

you could switch on freezers beforehand so they drop an extra 1C,

and then switch them off when the extra load is needed, and they then

won't use any more power for an extended period whilst you get the

toilet flushing and kettle boiling over and done with.


Would that really save that much, surely this would be more use in kettles than fridage/freezers.
Or as the govenrment uses scotland for such things just switch scotland off should we get low on power ;-)



Yes, that makes sense but that *isn't* what this device claims to be able

to do, Smart Meters *might*. This device is autonomous it just looks at

the frequency and switches off below 47 Hz on above 52 Hz(*). It's not

centrally controlled from anywhere. I guess one could artificially

increase the grid frequency to that extreme to trigger the devices but

I'd put that into the "bit risky" category. Power stations will trip off

on over frequency just as well as they do for under frequency.


If it wasn;t for H&S I'd get my meter out and measure the labs frequency .
My cheap maplin brought power meter says 212V at 50HZ.

On Apr 29, 12:55*pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ther-switch-fr...

--Ads not by this site

All coming whether you like it or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_demand_management

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_grid

This was discussed a couple of days back here.
Welcome to tomorrow.
Renewable energy.
Wind turbines. PV electricity Tidal/wave power.
We can live with it.
Will have to.
Even needed for new nuclear.

On Monday, April 29, 2013 12:55:31 PM UTC+1, The Other Mike wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...echnology.html


Whether its a good or bad thing depends entirely on the details, as is so often the case.

Eg if it costs £1.50 per appliance (custom chip, relay) and doesnt make any noticeable diffrence to the end user, then it can cut generating & distribution costs a bit, and from that bills.

But if it costs £40 a pop (I cant see how it would), messes with your dinner and defrosts your food, and end users are legally required to use it, then its nothing but a stupid pest and an intrusion into basic liberty.


NT

On 29/04/2013 16:33, whisky-dave wrote:
....
That would be worrying, one could be playing an important game just about to reach a new level and the power goes off !!!!!!...

That is the purpose of a UPS.

Colin Bignell

On 29/04/2013 16:29, Tim Watts wrote:
On Monday 29 April 2013 15:54 Andrew Gabriel wrote in uk.d-i-y:

In article ,
Tim Watts writes:
On Monday 29 April 2013 13:56 Terry Fields wrote in uk.d-i-y:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

"It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and
freezers
switching will be for a few seconds and only occasionally"

A bit like the assurances that police tazers would only be used in
extreme circumstances....



On people soak in flammable liquids...

I can't help thinking that anyone to which that wasn't blindingly
obvious, should never have been given access to a tazer, or any
other weapon for that matter, not even a truncheon.


This is plod we're talking about...

New anti-taser tactic - wet yourself thoroughly with water and a few
drops of petrol. Anyone armed with a taser would now think twice (one
would hope) before using it unless they were sure the wet was not flammable.

--
Rod

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
...
In article o.uk,
"Dave Liquorice" writes:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rother-switch-
fridge-Power-giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

I know it's the Mail but WTF do you start with the ******** it spouts.

I haven't read that, but I listened to the spokesman from the
european power generators association (whatever it was called)
being interviewed on this issue at lunchtime today.

"Can shut down supply without warning - or your consent"

That's the main function of smart meters, which I already mentioned
in another thread.

There will be something buried in the User Guide that gives your consent
by the simple act using the appliance. That happens already for lots of
things.

In the graphic it says demand surged during the Royal Wedding. I doubt it
was during but immediatly afterwards when everyone leapt up for a cuppa
and a wee (pumps coming on to supply water and take it away). Not even
sure that 2.4 GW is correct either and if it is it's probably one of, if
not the, largest load pickups ever and can be planned for and is why we
have Dinorwic.

"Sensors in domestic appliances would check this frequency every 0.2
seconds, and if it fell to 47Hz - a level that would risk blackouts - the
devices would kick in and shut fridges, freezers and ovens down."

Only "risk" blackouts at 47 Hz? The limit 50 Hz is +/- 0.5 Hz. I reckon
if it ever got down to 47 Hz there would be power stations tripping out
left right and center.

This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

"If the frequency of the supply nudged towards 52 Hz, the devices could
make fridges become cooler, increasing demand and balancing out the
system."

And probably all the substation fuses will pop, dropping loads of
load suddenly and unexpectedly, causing the frequency to rocket up
through positive feedback as all loads are shed.

Pardon, do I really see what I'm reading? HTF can a switch make a device
use more energy? Or are they saying it switches on when it doesn't need
to?

There's actually a large timing range for things like fridges (and
even more, freezers) that can cycle on/off without going outside
temperature spec. They do represent an excellent opportunity to store
energy. For example, if you know you're going to have a mass toilet
flushing and kettle boiling at the end of a royal wedding/funeral,
you could switch on freezers beforehand so they drop an extra 1C,

In don't think that's gonna work with "frost-free" ones. Surely they resist
being "turned on early" to go a little bit colder

tim

On 29/04/2013 18:40, Nightjar wrote:
On 29/04/2013 16:33, whisky-dave wrote:
...
That would be worrying, one could be playing an important game just
about to reach a new level and the power goes off !!!!!!...

That is the purpose of a UPS.

Colin Bignell

No, the purpose of a decent sized UPS is to allow you to brew up when
the power loss has taken your IT systems out

SteveW

On Monday, April 29, 2013 12:55:31 PM UTC+1, The Other Mike wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...echnology.html

The ability to switch off individual appliances will be via a smart chip in a plug or socket, or future appliance.

This is already planned for the Dimplex Quantum series of storage heaters which are a visually redesigned proper fan storage heater like the commercial range. There will be a Smart Switch where that whirling (giggle) wind turbine can dump electricity into it at suitable times as essentially a large dump resistor bank when the wind is blowing, generating electricity, when no-one wants it :-)

Unfortunately whilst Dimplex have come up with a reasonably nice design, smart actual temperature regulation, fan only rather than leak output, ultra high value insulation, they have a) created silly prices (£650 or so for 3kW) and b) forgot you need about 65mm+ Celotex on every wall in a 3 bed semi for it to have a chance of heating. Ok, 50mm XPS will do, but it is the big stumbling block.


More of a concern is the ?rumour? that the EU wants to impose an annual kWhr limit, far below the typical 8-10 units per day people use (ignoring storage heaters, electric chair for the wife / kids / bank staff).

Aside, anyone fitted MK Isolators or their CU recently needs to check they are not part of the recall. Quality is going to the dogs broadly, ironically surprised at Legrand French outlets & parts recently - highest end models at eye watering prices on a house scale tho re NF100 requirements. Legrand sockets seem to have a low plug retention compared to MK. Things might have peaked in quality, sadly :-(

In message , The Other Mike
writes
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-switch-fridg
e-Power-giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html


What percentage of the time do fridges and freezers sit there doing
nothing until the compressor kicks in - 90%?

So on the whole, **** all saving


--
geoff

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC), (Andrew
Gabriel) wrote:

This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of generation (this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a frequency of around
48.8Hz. No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:43:00 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

More of a concern is the ?rumour? that the EU wants to impose an annual
kWhr limit, far below the typical 8-10 units per day people use
(ignoring storage heaters, electric chair for the wife / kids / bank
staff).

COUGH People can use that little a day? We sit at around 20 units/day
but then we aren't wage slaves so normally "in" so the daytime base load
is about 1 kW, compared to the 300 W overnight norm. Still that only
accounts for about five units of the twenty.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Apr 29, 11:20*pm, geoff wrote:
In message , The Other Mike
writeshttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-switch-fridg
e-Power-giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

What percentage of the time do fridges and freezers sit there doing
nothing until the compressor kicks in - 90%?

So on the whole, **** all saving

--
geoff

Not 90%. But it depends on ambient temperature.
Why don't you check and do some fag packet calculations before you
open your mouth?

On Apr 29, 11:46*pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC), (Andrew

Gabriel) wrote:
This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe uk.railway? *I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on the German
grid, the system frequency *during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of generation *(this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was about 0..05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a frequency of around
48.8Hz. *No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.

On Apr 29, 10:43*pm, wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2013 12:55:31 PM UTC+1, The Other Mike wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ther-switch-fr...

The ability to switch off individual appliances will be via a smart chip in a plug or socket, or future appliance.

This is already planned for the Dimplex Quantum series of storage heaters which are a visually redesigned proper fan storage heater like the commercial range. There will be a Smart Switch where that whirling (giggle) wind turbine can dump electricity into it at suitable times as essentially a large dump resistor bank when the wind is blowing, generating electricity, when no-one wants it :-)

Unfortunately whilst Dimplex have come up with a reasonably nice design, smart actual temperature regulation, fan only rather than leak output, ultra high value insulation, they have a) created silly prices (£650 or so for 3kW) and b) forgot you need about 65mm+ Celotex on every wall in a 3 bed semi for it to have a chance of heating. Ok, 50mm XPS will do, but it is the big stumbling block.

More of a concern is the ?rumour? that the EU wants to impose an annual kWhr limit, far below the typical 8-10 units per day people use (ignoring storage heaters, electric chair for the wife / kids / bank staff).

Aside, anyone fitted MK Isolators or their CU recently needs to check they are not part of the recall. Quality is going to the dogs broadly, ironically surprised at Legrand French outlets & parts recently - highest end models at eye watering prices on a house scale tho re NF100 requirements. Legrand sockets seem to have a low plug retention compared to MK. Things might have peaked in quality, sadly :-(

Well I use less than that now and I have no gas and an electric car.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 22:15:22 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.

Harry, let me guess, It's Tuesday so it must be the night after MDMA

--

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 22:12:20 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 29, 11:20*pm, geoff wrote:
In message , The Other Mike
writeshttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-switch-fridg
e-Power-giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

What percentage of the time do fridges and freezers sit there doing
nothing until the compressor kicks in - 90%?

So on the whole, **** all saving

Not 90%. But it depends on ambient temperature.

Which for most households in the UK with the fridge / freezer in the habitable
space is close to constant all year round

Why don't you check and do some fag packet calculations before you
open your mouth?

Harry we've already done that here just last week, not just fag packet
calculations made up on the spot like some spiv solar panel salesman, but real
world rough costings.

--

On 30/04/2013 06:15, harry wrote:
On Apr 29, 11:46 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of generation (this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a frequency of around
48.8Hz. No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.


I've never understood why a load on the grid _must_ affect frequency.
(and yet it does...)

A generator is shoving out a certain amount of power into a load. If the
load increases (reduces its resistance) either the power goes up, or the
voltage comes down.

I can see why the easiest way for the voltage to come down is for the
generator to slow down. The coils aren't going through the fields as
fast, so you get less power consumed. In the case of the grid, where all
the generators are synchronously locked, if they all slow down then the
grid frequency drops.

But why can't you just control the current into the field coils to keep
the frequency spot on, and let the volts go up and down?

Andy

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 23:46:05 +0100, The Other Mike
wrote:

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of generation

system frequency *change* !!!



--

In message , Andy Champ
writes
On 30/04/2013 06:15, harry wrote:
On Apr 29, 11:46 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe
uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on
the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of
generation (this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was
about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a
larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a
frequency of around
48.8Hz. No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in
Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.


I've never understood why a load on the grid _must_ affect frequency.
(and yet it does...)

A generator is shoving out a certain amount of power into a load. If
the load increases (reduces its resistance) either the power goes up,
or the voltage comes down.

I can see why the easiest way for the voltage to come down is for the
generator to slow down. The coils aren't going through the fields as
fast, so you get less power consumed. In the case of the grid, where
all the generators are synchronously locked, if they all slow down then
the grid frequency drops.

But why can't you just control the current into the field coils to keep
the frequency spot on, and let the volts go up and down?

When the load increases, the generator output voltage will decrease,
because of the resistance of the armature windings. However, this will
probably be a minor effect compared with the voltage drop on the power
distribution cables, and I'm pretty sure that somewhere down the line,
at the sub-stations, there is some tap-switching equipment which tries
to maintain a more-constant voltage at the customer. Unfortunately, this
will result in a further increase of the load on the generator.

Also, as the load on the generator increases, it will slow down, and the
guys at the power station will try to maintain its speed by (literally)
putting more coals on the fire in order to increase the drive power to
the shaft of the generator, and to apply more voltage to the field
windings (to increase its current, and thus maintain the output
voltage).

Unfortunately, if the load is so great that not enough coals can be put
on the fire quickly enough, something has to give - and there are only
two things that can happen. One is that the load has to be reduced (and
I guess that this is usually done by switching the customers to a slight
lower voltage - although in some cases, this may mean that some will
then try and draw more current to compensate). Alternatively, the output
voltage of the generator itself could be allowed to fall by reducing the
field current (although this might cause complications at the tap
switchers). The other alternative is to allow the generator to slow
down. In practice, in the home, we usually see both effects, ie that the
voltage is lower that we normally get, and frequency is less than 50Hz.
--
Ian

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 19:18:08 +0100, polygonum wrote:

New anti-taser tactic - wet yourself thoroughly with water and a few
drops of petrol. Anyone armed with a taser would now think twice (one
would hope) before using it unless they were sure the wet was not
flammable.

Reminds me of my mock Physics practical A level back in nineteen canteen.

I'd been given the problem of measuring the cubic coefficient of expansion of a liquid, using a precision flask
with a capillary stopper. The liquid smelled strongly of paraffin, but a whispered conversation about my result
with the chap next to me suggested that the liquid was in fact water.

When the teacher handed out the results (I got good marks) he admitted that it was water with an added drop of
paraffin.

Very effective at causing confusion....

--
Terry Fields

On 30/04/2013 11:16, Terry Fields wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 19:18:08 +0100, polygonum wrote:

New anti-taser tactic - wet yourself thoroughly with water and a few
drops of petrol. Anyone armed with a taser would now think twice (one
would hope) before using it unless they were sure the wet was not
flammable.

Reminds me of my mock Physics practical A level back in nineteen canteen.

I'd been given the problem of measuring the cubic coefficient of expansion of a liquid, using a precision flask
with a capillary stopper. The liquid smelled strongly of paraffin, but a whispered conversation about my result
with the chap next to me suggested that the liquid was in fact water.

When the teacher handed out the results (I got good marks) he admitted that it was water with an added drop of
paraffin.

Very effective at causing confusion....

Good trick.

And further thought has suggested that even really dousing yourself in
petrol might not help - the taser-armed person might assume it was water
with a drop of petrol...

--
Rod

In article ,
The Other Mike writes:

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of generation (this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a frequency of around
48.8Hz. No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in Italy about
the same as the UK.

Germany doesn't have a grid - it's part of a much larger sychronisation
zone which covers all EU countries between Portugal and Romainia, and
is controlled from Switzerland. (Also includes some north african
countries via a Gibraltar link, but I doubt that passes a large amount
of energy in relative terms.)

Originally all the eastern (political) european countries were part of
the USSR synchronisation zone, but they've been gradually moving across.
It was an interesting issue when the Berlin Wall came down - the West
was 50Hz +/-0.1Hz, and very short of power, and the East was 50Hz +/-1Hz
(but often a larger drift), and with a surpless of power, but very poluting
power generation.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 30/04/2013 12:44, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
The Other Mike writes:

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of generation (this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a frequency of around
48.8Hz. No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in Italy about
the same as the UK.

Germany doesn't have a grid - it's part of a much larger sychronisation
zone which covers all EU countries between Portugal and Romainia, and
is controlled from Switzerland. (Also includes some north african
countries via a Gibraltar link, but I doubt that passes a large amount
of energy in relative terms.)

Originally all the eastern (political) european countries were part of
the USSR synchronisation zone, but they've been gradually moving across.
It was an interesting issue when the Berlin Wall came down - the West
was 50Hz +/-0.1Hz, and very short of power, and the East was 50Hz +/-1Hz
(but often a larger drift), and with a surpless of power, but very poluting
power generation.

Out of genuine ignorance, I ask what aspects of German and our
electricity distribution make it "not a grid" there, but "a grid" here?

Quite obviously, there are cables between power stations and consumers.

Quite obviously, and you state it, there are standards to which they
adhere for frequency.

So what makes Germany (and the other countries) a synchronisation zone
but not a grid?

--
Rod

On Monday, April 29, 2013 6:40:23 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 29/04/2013 16:33, whisky-dave wrote:

...

That would be worrying, one could be playing an important game just about to reach a new level and the power goes off !!!!!!...



That is the purpose of a UPS.

Now it would bypass the UPS as it would be direct to yuor computer, it would be a chipmon the mother board. And as UPS are basically inefficient the'y be the first to be switched off if teh tech was available.

On 30/04/2013 12:56, polygonum wrote:

Out of genuine ignorance, I ask what aspects of German and our
electricity distribution make it "not a grid" there, but "a grid" here?

Should have said "Not an independent grid", I think.

The German grid is tied into other European countries by direct wiring,
so the whole of that zone works as a "grid". The UK is only linked to
the mainland by DC links, and the inverters at each end are locked to
their respective grids, so our internal transmission frequency and
phasing can and does vary from the mainland grid.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

In article ,
polygonum writes:
On 30/04/2013 12:44, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
Germany doesn't have a grid - it's part of a much larger sychronisation
zone which covers all EU countries between Portugal and Romainia, and

Oops, 'EU' should have said Europe. (It's nothing to do with the EU.)

is controlled from Switzerland. (Also includes some north african
countries via a Gibraltar link, but I doubt that passes a large amount
of energy in relative terms.)

Originally all the eastern (political) european countries were part of
the USSR synchronisation zone, but they've been gradually moving across.
It was an interesting issue when the Berlin Wall came down - the West
was 50Hz +/-0.1Hz, and very short of power, and the East was 50Hz +/-1Hz
(but often a larger drift), and with a surpless of power, but very poluting
power generation.

Out of genuine ignorance, I ask what aspects of German and our
electricity distribution make it "not a grid" there, but "a grid" here?

The post was talking about 50Hz stability, but Germany doesn't control
that - it's part of a single synchronisation zone covering lots of
countries (including Italy which was also mentioned), which have a
single supply infrastructure. This is the zone over which supply and
demand are matched using directly connected sychronised generation.

We are also connected to this, but not sychronised - we are our own
synchronisation zone and separate grid, and our 50Hz can drift against
the Europe 50Hz.

2GW loss is a much smaller proportion of the European zone than it is
of our zone.

Quite obviously, there are cables between power stations and consumers.

Quite obviously, and you state it, there are standards to which they
adhere for frequency.

So what makes Germany (and the other countries) a synchronisation zone
but not a grid?

It is a grid, but covers all the countries in the Zone, not just Germany.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On Apr 29, 3:53*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:
"Can shut down supply without warning - or your consent"

That's the main function of smart meters, which I already mentioned
in another thread.

I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to
selectively cut the power to appliances. Whole supply maybe but not just
the Fridge.

The ones being installed now are not smart meters at all. They just
get called that because it sounds sexy and ignorant journos are
involved.

MBQ

On Apr 30, 9:18*am, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 22:12:20 -0700 (PDT), harry
wrote:

On Apr 29, 11:20 pm, geoff wrote:
In message , The Other Mike
writeshttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...r-switch-fridg
e-Power-giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

What percentage of the time do fridges and freezers sit there doing
nothing until the compressor kicks in - 90%?

So on the whole, **** all saving

Not 90%. But it depends on ambient temperature.

Which for most households in the UK with the fridge / freezer in the habitable
space is close to constant all year round

Which doesn't negate the fact that the freezer effort will depend on
the ambient temperature, which could be very different between a
heated kitchen and a cold pantry, even if they are both constant.

What was the point you were trying to make?

MBQ