On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:40:01 -0700 (PDT), Man at B&Q wrote:

I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to
selectively cut the power to appliances. Whole supply maybe but not
just the Fridge.

The ones being installed now are not smart meters at all. They just
get called that because it sounds sexy and ignorant journos are
involved.

Whilst I'm inclined to believe the latter part I don't think the first is
quite right. Agreed the early "smart meters" may have been not much more
than a meter with built in energy monitor but I think the ones going in
now are the proper "smart" ones with remote reading that doesn't require
visit or even a van driving down the street polling the meters.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 29 Apr 2013 12:56:54 GMT, Terry Fields wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

"It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and freezers switching will be for a few seconds and
only occasionally"


So switching a running fridge pot is 'harmless'? Off is OK but if the pot
has been running for some time, so that the pressure in it it high and is
then turned off for a minute or two and then back on, it's starting on load.
If I need to turn off my freezer I always try to do it when the pot isn't
running. If there's a supply fault that's on-off, the freezer then any
computery things are first to be switched off. Lights and heaters are OK to
greater or lesser extent (oh dear, blown a CFL, what a pity).
--
Peter.
The gods will stay away
whilst religions hold sway

On Apr 30, 9:48*am, Andy Champ wrote:
On 30/04/2013 06:15, harry wrote:









On Apr 29, 11:46 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe uk.railway? *I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on the German
grid, the system frequency *during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of generation *(this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a frequency of around
48.8Hz. *No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.

I've never understood why a load on the grid _must_ affect frequency.
(and yet it does...)

A generator is shoving out a certain amount of power into a load. If the
load increases (reduces its resistance) either the power goes up, or the
voltage comes down.

I can see why the easiest way for the voltage to come down is for the
generator to slow down. The coils aren't going through the fields as
fast, so you get less power consumed. In the case of the grid, where all
the generators are synchronously locked, if they all slow down then the
grid frequency drops.

But why can't you just control the current into the field coils to keep
the frequency spot on, and let the volts go up and down?

Andy

The frequency of the alternator depends on it's speed which depends on
the speed of the driving device. To vary power output/maintain
voltage, the excitation current is varied.

This means that the mechanical input torque has to be increased if
excitation is increased. If this fails to happen the frequency will
fall.

On Apr 30, 3:17*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:40:01 -0700 (PDT), Man at B&Q wrote:
I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to
selectively cut the power to appliances. Whole supply maybe but not
just the Fridge.

The ones being installed now are not smart meters at all. They just
get called that because it sounds sexy and ignorant journos are
involved.

Whilst I'm inclined to believe the latter part I don't think the first is
quite right. Agreed the early "smart meters" may have been not much more
than a meter with built in energy monitor but I think the ones going in
now are the proper "smart" ones with remote reading that doesn't require
visit or even a van driving down the street polling the meters.

--
Cheers
Dave.

I think they can alter smart meters by changing a chip or
reprogramming so it can do virtually anything. Maybe even
reprogramming remotely.
This is just the thin edge of the wedge.

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 2:40:01 PM UTC+1, Man at B&Q wrote:
On Apr 29, 3:53*pm, "Dave Liquorice"

wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Gabriel wrote:

"Can shut down supply without warning - or your consent"



That's the main function of smart meters, which I already mentioned

in another thread.



I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to

selectively cut the power to appliances. Whole supply maybe but not just

the Fridge.



The ones being installed now are not smart meters at all. They just

get called that because it sounds sexy and ignorant journos are

involved.

Well they are smarter than the journos :-)

On 30/04/2013 14:03, John Williamson wrote:
On 30/04/2013 12:56, polygonum wrote:

Out of genuine ignorance, I ask what aspects of German and our
electricity distribution make it "not a grid" there, but "a grid" here?

Should have said "Not an independent grid", I think.

The German grid is tied into other European countries by direct wiring,
so the whole of that zone works as a "grid". The UK is only linked to
the mainland by DC links, and the inverters at each end are locked to
their respective grids, so our internal transmission frequency and
phasing can and does vary from the mainland grid.


Right - that certainly makes sense, thanks.

--
Rod

On 30/04/2013 14:18, Andrew Gabriel wrote:


It is a grid, but covers all the countries in the Zone, not just Germany.

It is a grid but not as we know it. :-)

--
Rod

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 4:37:40 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Apr 30, 3:17*pm, "Dave Liquorice"

wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:40:01 -0700 (PDT), Man at B&Q wrote:

I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to

selectively cut the power to appliances. Whole supply maybe but not

just the Fridge.



The ones being installed now are not smart meters at all. They just

get called that because it sounds sexy and ignorant journos are

involved.



Whilst I'm inclined to believe the latter part I don't think the first is

quite right. Agreed the early "smart meters" may have been not much more

than a meter with built in energy monitor but I think the ones going in

now are the proper "smart" ones with remote reading that doesn't require

visit or even a van driving down the street polling the meters.



--

Cheers

Dave.



I think they can alter smart meters by changing a chip or

reprogramming so it can do virtually anything.

Doubt that, due to cost.

Maybe even

reprogramming remotely.

That would make sense but for what purpose, until I replace my fridge and freezer and every other applience it won't be able to talk to them any more than talk to my cat with her RFID chip.
What it can do it's altere the price per unit, buyt I'm not convinced that turning appliancies off in times of high demand is the aim.




This is just the thin edge of the wedge.

The slippery slope that the snowball is on is my concern. ;-)

On 30/04/2013 14:00, whisky-dave wrote:
On Monday, April 29, 2013 6:40:23 PM UTC+1, Nightjar wrote:
On 29/04/2013 16:33, whisky-dave wrote:

...

That would be worrying, one could be playing an important game
just about to reach a new level and the power goes off !!!!!!...



That is the purpose of a UPS.

Now it would bypass the UPS as it would be direct to yuor computer,
it would be a chipmon the mother board. And as UPS are basically
inefficient the'y be the first to be switched off if teh tech was
available.

With an "online" UPS then computer would be running from the inverter
all the time, and never see the grid frequency.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 30 Apr, 15:17, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:40:01 -0700 (PDT), Man at B&Q wrote:
I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to
selectively cut the power to appliances. Whole supply maybe but not
just the Fridge.

The ones being installed now are not smart meters at all. They just
get called that because it sounds sexy and ignorant journos are
involved.

Whilst I'm inclined to believe the latter part I don't think the first is
quite right. Agreed the early "smart meters" may have been not much more
than a meter with built in energy monitor but I think the ones going in
now are the proper "smart" ones with remote reading that doesn't require
visit or even a van driving down the street polling the meters.

Even that is not sufficient. A real smart meter is one which is
integrated into a smart grid network and takes part in grid balancing
by dynamically switching loads, so called "demand side management".

Try http://www.altera.co.uk/literature/w...rid-design.pdf

MBQ

On 30/04/2013 16:30, harry wrote:
On Apr 30, 9:48 am, Andy Champ wrote:

I've never understood why a load on the grid _must_ affect frequency.
(and yet it does...)

A generator is shoving out a certain amount of power into a load. If the
load increases (reduces its resistance) either the power goes up, or the
voltage comes down.

I can see why the easiest way for the voltage to come down is for the
generator to slow down. The coils aren't going through the fields as
fast, so you get less power consumed. In the case of the grid, where all
the generators are synchronously locked, if they all slow down then the
grid frequency drops.

But why can't you just control the current into the field coils to keep
the frequency spot on, and let the volts go up and down?

Andy

The frequency of the alternator depends on it's speed which depends on
the speed of the driving device. To vary power output/maintain
voltage, the excitation current is varied.

This means that the mechanical input torque has to be increased if
excitation is increased. If this fails to happen the frequency will
fall.

Yes. And?

If you get an increased load, surely you can maintain speed by reducing
the excitation current - can't you?

Andy

In message , Andy Champ
writes
On 30/04/2013 16:30, harry wrote:
On Apr 30, 9:48 am, Andy Champ wrote:

I've never understood why a load on the grid _must_ affect frequency.
(and yet it does...)

A generator is shoving out a certain amount of power into a load. If the
load increases (reduces its resistance) either the power goes up, or the
voltage comes down.

I can see why the easiest way for the voltage to come down is for the
generator to slow down. The coils aren't going through the fields as
fast, so you get less power consumed. In the case of the grid, where all
the generators are synchronously locked, if they all slow down then the
grid frequency drops.

But why can't you just control the current into the field coils to keep
the frequency spot on, and let the volts go up and down?

Andy

The frequency of the alternator depends on it's speed which depends on
the speed of the driving device. To vary power output/maintain
voltage, the excitation current is varied.

This means that the mechanical input torque has to be increased if
excitation is increased. If this fails to happen the frequency will
fall.

Yes. And?

If you get an increased load, surely you can maintain speed by reducing
the excitation current - can't you?

This will result in a reduction of generator output voltage.
--
Ian

On 30/04/2013 06:15, harry wrote:
On Apr 29, 11:46 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC), (Andrew

Gabriel) wrote:
This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of generation (this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a frequency of around
48.8Hz. No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.

No, frequency and load are closely related....


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

In message
,
harry writes
On Apr 29, 11:20*pm, geoff wrote:
In message , The Other Mike

writeshttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...g-brother-swit
ch-fridg
e-Power-giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

What percentage of the time do fridges and freezers sit there doing
nothing until the compressor kicks in - 90%?

So on the whole, **** all saving

--
geoff

Not 90%. But it depends on ambient temperature.
Why don't you check and do some fag packet calculations before you
open your mouth?

It was a finger in the air figure Harry. It depends on much more than
ambient temperature

go away and do some real figures and report back private harold


--
geoff

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 10:59:37 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

m pretty sure that somewhere down the line,
at the sub-stations, there is some tap-switching equipment which tries
to maintain a more-constant voltage at the customer.

There is automatic voltage control at the generator to keep the terminal voltage
near constant, terminal voltage being a predefined generator design parameter
and controlled to within a few % of that figure. It's typically somewhere in
the region of 15 - 25kV on the majority of UK coal/oil/nuke/gas generating
capacity) This is then stepped up to a transmission voltage (400/275/132kV)
The grid systems with one or two exceptions is always run at their nominal
voltage, the transformers between these three voltages are usually
autotransformers or in a few cases double wound. So the lower voltage networks
run at a strict ratio to the higher voltage ones with no adjustment possible.

The variable tapping takes place at the interface between the transmission
voltage and the distribution voltage and often on the secondary of a transformer
having 132kV on its primary. Metering of power leaving the grid system is
normally performed at these nodes. (Contrary to the norm are a small number of
400kV and 275kV to 66kV/33kV/11kV transformers on UK power networks)






--

On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 11:35:49 PM UTC+1, The Other Mike wrote:

Equip the entire country of 24 million household with identical fridge freezers
and on average only 1/24 of them would be requiring power per one hour period.
They don't all turn on at precisely 17:32:06 and each present 4.8kW load to the
grid.
So for a typical A++ rated fridge freezer your entire demand control capability
for one hour is 600MW for an installed base of 24 million fridge freezers..
Install the same overall level of demand control for a few hundred commercial or
industrial consumers and the payback for the customer is much quicker, the costs
of implementing it are significantly lower for all parties, the customer sees
100% return on their invested capital in five years or so. The infrastructure to
support this demand control exists now and has done for a few decades. Above
all it requires no investment from anyone but the customer.
All smart metering schemes will require wiring changes/appliance
changes/infrastructure changes. The benefit to the domestic end user is near
zero. The benefit to grid system operator and distribution network operator is
near zero. The only ones that benefit are the parasites supplying and
installing the appliances / equipment.


If the government keep their stupid fingers out, it won't be long before appliances with this feature are available for an extra £5. An 8 bit cpu can respond to frequency, and send the appliance serial number down the wiring now and then, and the power co software will automatically knock £1 off the bill. The customer is free to choose, and it'll become popular because & when its worth it.

With government involvement it'll be nothing but problems and one more parasite ripping us off. Seems they really cant help but be idiots.


NT

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rother-switch-
fridge-Power-giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

I know it's the Mail but WTF do you start with the ******** it spouts.

"Can shut down supply without warning - or your consent"

There will be something buried in the User Guide that gives your consent
by the simple act using the appliance. That happens already for lots of
things.

In the graphic it says demand surged during the Royal Wedding. I doubt it
was during but immediatly afterwards when everyone leapt up for a cuppa
and a wee (pumps coming on to supply water and take it away). Not even
sure that 2.4 GW is correct either and if it is it's probably one of, if
not the, largest load pickups ever and can be planned for and is why we
have Dinorwic.

"Sensors in domestic appliances would check this frequency every 0.2
seconds, and if it fell to 47Hz - a level that would risk blackouts - the
devices would kick in and shut fridges, freezers and ovens down."

Only "risk" blackouts at 47 Hz? The limit 50 Hz is +/- 0.5 Hz. I reckon
if it ever got down to 47 Hz there would be power stations tripping out
left right and center.

"If the frequency of the supply nudged towards 52 Hz, the devices could
make fridges become cooler, increasing demand and balancing out the
system."

Pardon, do I really see what I'm reading? HTF can a switch make a device
use more energy? Or are they saying it switches on when it doesn't need
to?

"'It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and
freezers switching will be for a few seconds and only occasionally.'"


If it shut down for a few seconds, would not it use more energy
switching back on again than it saved by switching off?




Well if they don't cut in until 47 Hz I think "occasionally" is likely to
be "never" or if they do will they switch the appliance off before the
supply anyway.

Very much looks like the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels have been
taken to some very nice meals.

On 01/05/13 01:58, F Murtz wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:55:31 +0100, The Other Mike wrote:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rother-switch-
fridge-Power-giants-make-millions--pay-sinister-technology.html

I know it's the Mail but WTF do you start with the ******** it spouts.

"Can shut down supply without warning - or your consent"

There will be something buried in the User Guide that gives your consent
by the simple act using the appliance. That happens already for lots of
things.

In the graphic it says demand surged during the Royal Wedding. I
doubt it
was during but immediatly afterwards when everyone leapt up for a cuppa
and a wee (pumps coming on to supply water and take it away). Not even
sure that 2.4 GW is correct either and if it is it's probably one of, if
not the, largest load pickups ever and can be planned for and is why we
have Dinorwic.

"Sensors in domestic appliances would check this frequency every 0.2
seconds, and if it fell to 47Hz - a level that would risk blackouts -
the
devices would kick in and shut fridges, freezers and ovens down."

Only "risk" blackouts at 47 Hz? The limit 50 Hz is +/- 0.5 Hz. I reckon
if it ever got down to 47 Hz there would be power stations tripping out
left right and center.

"If the frequency of the supply nudged towards 52 Hz, the devices could
make fridges become cooler, increasing demand and balancing out the
system."

Pardon, do I really see what I'm reading? HTF can a switch make a device
use more energy? Or are they saying it switches on when it doesn't need
to?

"'It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and
freezers switching will be for a few seconds and only occasionally.'"


If it shut down for a few seconds, would not it use more energy
switching back on again than it saved by switching off?


that is possible.
high current transients cause extra losses in power lines because its I
squared R, So delivering the same average power down a resistive line is
less efficient at lower duty cyles.

When the idea s to use less power overall, its rather more complex.

A problem many have encountered in the RC electric plane world, where
controllers blow up at part throttle, not full (throttling being done
by chopping the supply) .Its critically linked to the leakage inductance
of the motors: low inductance (the best motors) will have massive peak
currents at part throttle.



Well if they don't cut in until 47 Hz I think "occasionally" is
likely to
be "never" or if they do will they switch the appliance off before the
supply anyway.

Very much looks like the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels have been
taken to some very nice meals.




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 30/04/13 22:26, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/04/2013 06:15, harry wrote:
On Apr 29, 11:46 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew

Gabriel) wrote:
This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe
uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on
the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of
generation (this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was
about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a
larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a
frequency of around
48.8Hz. No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in
Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.

No, frequency and load are closely related....


yes, but they are still separate issues.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 01/05/2013 03:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
On 30/04/13 22:26, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/04/2013 06:15, harry wrote:
On Apr 29, 11:46 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew

Gabriel) wrote:
This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe
uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on
the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of
generation (this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was
about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a
larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a
frequency of around
48.8Hz. No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in
Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.

No, frequency and load are closely related....


yes, but they are still separate issues.

separate issues, but codependent if you prefer.


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Apr 30, 4:49*pm, whisky-dave wrote:
On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 4:37:40 PM UTC+1, harry wrote:
On Apr 30, 3:17*pm, "Dave Liquorice"

wrote:

On Tue, 30 Apr 2013 06:40:01 -0700 (PDT), Man at B&Q wrote:

I don't think any Smart Meter installations have the ability to

selectively cut the power to appliances. Whole supply maybe but not

just the Fridge.

The ones being installed now are not smart meters at all. They just

get called that because it sounds sexy and ignorant journos are

involved.

Whilst I'm inclined to believe the latter part I don't think the first is

quite right. Agreed the early "smart meters" may have been not much more

than a meter with built in energy monitor but I think the ones going in

now are the proper "smart" ones with remote reading that doesn't require

visit or even a van driving down the street polling the meters.

--

Cheers

Dave.

I think they can alter smart meters by changing a chip or

reprogramming so it can do virtually anything.

Doubt that, due to cost.

Maybe even

reprogramming remotely.

That would make sense but for what purpose, until I replace my fridge and freezer and every other applience it won't be able to talk to them any more than talk to my cat with her RFID chip.
What it can do it's altere the price per unit, buyt I'm not convinced that turning appliancies off in times of high demand is the aim.

Possibly not. Everything is driven by money.

On Apr 30, 8:37*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
On 30/04/2013 16:30, harry wrote:







On Apr 30, 9:48 am, Andy Champ wrote:

I've never understood why a load on the grid _must_ affect frequency.
(and yet it does...)

A generator is shoving out a certain amount of power into a load. If the
load increases (reduces its resistance) either the power goes up, or the
voltage comes down.

I can see why the easiest way for the voltage to come down is for the
generator to slow down. The coils aren't going through the fields as
fast, so you get less power consumed. In the case of the grid, where all
the generators are synchronously locked, if they all slow down then the
grid frequency drops.

But why can't you just control the current into the field coils to keep
the frequency spot on, and let the volts go up and down?

Andy

The frequency of the alternator depends on it's speed which depends on
the speed of the driving device. To *vary power output/maintain
voltage, the excitation current is varied.

This means that the mechanical input torque has to be increased if
excitation is increased. *If this fails to happen the frequency will
fall.

Yes. And?

If you get an increased load, surely you can maintain speed by reducing
the excitation current - can't you?

But that also reduces voltage. If you reduced it sufficiently the
"generator"
would be run as a "motor".

On Apr 30, 10:26*pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/04/2013 06:15, harry wrote:









On Apr 29, 11:46 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC), (Andrew

Gabriel) wrote:
This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe uk.railway? *I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on the German
grid, the system frequency *during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of generation *(this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a frequency of around
48.8Hz. *No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.

No, frequency and load are closely related....

--
Cheers,

John.

As any generator is in parallel with others, the speed/frequency,
cannot change.
So torque is increased and excitation.
As torque is increased, the load angle increases until eventually
pole skipping occurs.
(Which is why excitation is also increased)

On 01/05/2013 01:58, F Murtz wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

"'It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and
freezers switching will be for a few seconds and only
occasionally.'"


If it shut down for a few seconds, would not it use more energy
switching back on again than it saved by switching off?

I think that is entirely possible if you take your current refrigerator
and add a simplistic device that switches off at least the motor for a
few seconds. But if the device has been designed to support brief
interruptions, then it could be designed to behave more intelligently.
Maybe to wait until the motor switched off anyway before applying the
interruption. Sure, that reduces the speed at which load is shed, but
maybe that is not so very important?

--
Rod

On May 1, 3:55*am, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/05/2013 03:38, The Natural Philosopher wrote:









On 30/04/13 22:26, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/04/2013 06:15, harry wrote:
On Apr 29, 11:46 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew

Gabriel) wrote:
This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe
uk.railway? *I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on
the German
grid, the system frequency *during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of
generation *(this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was
about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a
larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a
frequency of around
48.8Hz. *No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in
Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.

No, frequency and load are closely related....

yes, but they are still separate issues.

separate issues, but codependent if you prefer.

--
No. The generators are driven at constant speed. They are linked
magnetically with every other generator in the country.
As demand increases, the torque and excitation are increased.
If demand exceeds availabilty then the voltage falls/is allowed
to fall. No more torque can be applied, no more excitation
can be applied or the machine will overload by too much
current in the stator.

Al of the above is near impossible with wind turbines which
run most efficiently at different speeds for different wind
speeds. which is why their output is first rectified and then
inverted to mains frequency. This overcomes a major
control problem

On 01/05/2013 09:52, Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

If each appliance is fitted with a "smart device", then no changes are
needed to the home wiring.
I would have thought is better to have "essential" and
"non-essential" circuits in every house.

I honestly can't see that for the mark space ratio that a fridge
compressor on a decent fridge-freezer runs at it is even worth the
bother. An electric immersion heater that was on a smart meter to use
nigh time energy might make a little bit more sense.

Given the propensity of certain washing machines to catch fire I am not
sure I would ever want to let mine run overnight anyway.

And you think the teenagers are going to remember which socket to plug
something in to? Or the average person, come to that.

You think anyone is going to convert their existing house to that - put
all your furniture in storage, move out, have all the walls bashed
around to have a second set of cabling installed, replaster, complete
redecoration, move back in.

Dream on.

You missed the bit where they ruin the existing ring main or a hidden
water pipe by accidentally drilling into it somewhere along the line.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

In article ,
Martin Brown wrote:
On 01/05/2013 09:52, Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

If each appliance is fitted with a "smart device", then no changes are
needed to the home wiring.
I would have thought is better to have "essential" and
"non-essential" circuits in every house.

I honestly can't see that for the mark space ratio that a fridge
compressor on a decent fridge-freezer runs at it is even worth the
bother. An electric immersion heater that was on a smart meter to use
nigh time energy might make a little bit more sense.

Given the propensity of certain washing machines to catch fire I am not
sure I would ever want to let mine run overnight anyway.

And you think the teenagers are going to remember which socket to plug
something in to? Or the average person, come to that.

You think anyone is going to convert their existing house to that - put
all your furniture in storage, move out, have all the walls bashed
around to have a second set of cabling installed, replaster, complete
redecoration, move back in.

Dream on.

You missed the bit where they ruin the existing ring main or a hidden
water pipe by accidentally drilling into it somewhere along the line.

'twas on a Monday morning that the gas man came to call .....

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On May 1, 3:37*am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:


A problem many have encountered in the RC electric plane world, where
controllers blow up at part throttle, not full (throttling being *done
by chopping the supply) .Its critically linked to the leakage inductance
of the motors: low inductance (the best motors) will have massive peak
currents at part throttle.

In the model train world it's expensive coreless motors that brick if
the PWM frequency is too low.

MBQ

On May 1, 8:18*am, harry wrote:


As any generator is in parallel with others, the speed/frequency,
*cannot change.

It does.

MBQ

On 01/05/2013 10:50, Man at B&Q wrote:
On May 1, 8:18 am, harry wrote:


As any generator is in parallel with others, the speed/frequency,
cannot change.

It does.

But not relative to the others.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On 01/05/2013 10:40, Huge wrote:
On 2013-05-01, Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

If each appliance is fitted with a "smart device", then no changes are
needed to the home wiring.
I would have thought is better to have "essential" and
"non-essential" circuits in every house.

And you think the teenagers are going to remember which socket to plug
something in to? Or the average person, come to that.

You think anyone is going to convert their existing house to that - put
all your furniture in storage, move out, have all the walls bashed
around to have a second set of cabling installed, replaster, complete
redecoration, move back in.

Dream on.

I've looked at 2 houses now that have parallel wiring systems for 110V and
BFO transformers tucked away somewhere. Most odd. I would have thought it
would have been *much* cheaper for American ex-pats to throw away their
electrical appliances and buy new ones here, and get a proper washing
machine into the bargain.


Ahbut, the Merkins think that *their* stuff is infintely superior to
anything available outside the US of A.

If they work for the forces, then moving stuff around the world is free
for them, and as they may move every few months....

Were the houses you looked at fairly close to a base, and in an estate
of suspiciously similar-looking ones? Almost as if they'd been built to
accommodate US personnel during the Cold War?

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 8:27:47 AM UTC+1, polygonum wrote:
On 01/05/2013 01:58, F Murtz wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

"'It will have no material impact on the operation of fridges and
freezers switching will be for a few seconds and only
occasionally.'"

If it shut down for a few seconds, would not it use more energy
switching back on again than it saved by switching off?

I think that is entirely possible if you take your current refrigerator
and add a simplistic device that switches off at least the motor for a
few seconds. But if the device has been designed to support brief
interruptions, then it could be designed to behave more intelligently.
Maybe to wait until the motor switched off anyway before applying the
interruption. Sure, that reduces the speed at which load is shed, but
maybe that is not so very important?

It makes little sense to switch it off for seconds when a filled freezer can be left off for an hour without issue. Just shift the temp setting by 1C.


NT

On 01/05/2013 10:40, Huge wrote:
On 2013-05-01, Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

If each appliance is fitted with a "smart device", then no changes are
needed to the home wiring.
I would have thought is better to have "essential" and
"non-essential" circuits in every house.

And you think the teenagers are going to remember which socket to plug
something in to? Or the average person, come to that.

You think anyone is going to convert their existing house to that - put
all your furniture in storage, move out, have all the walls bashed
around to have a second set of cabling installed, replaster, complete
redecoration, move back in.

Dream on.

I've looked at 2 houses now that have parallel wiring systems for 110V and
BFO transformers tucked away somewhere. Most odd. I would have thought it
would have been *much* cheaper for American ex-pats to throw away their
electrical appliances and buy new ones here, and get a proper washing
machine into the bargain.

They are dumb enough to think that their gear is the best in the world.

The Japanese may actually have a point believing that but much of their
kit will run on anything since half the country is 50Hz and half on 60Hz
depending on whether it was under US or UK influence after WWII.

Most portable equipment sold in the ROW these days will accept 50-60Hz
100-240v ac and run quite happily. Americans still have 60Hz only 110v.

I still recall discovering how my Ronson electric razor was supposed to
work when I first visited the US. A crap design that relied on a 60Hz
mechanical resonance. I have used Braun or a wet shave ever since.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown

On Wednesday, May 1, 2013 12:33:51 AM UTC+1, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 30, 2013 11:35:49 PM UTC+1, The Other Mike wrote:



Equip the entire country of 24 million household with identical fridge freezers

and on average only 1/24 of them would be requiring power per one hour period.

They don't all turn on at precisely 17:32:06 and each present 4.8kW load to the

grid.

So for a typical A++ rated fridge freezer your entire demand control capability

for one hour is 600MW for an installed base of 24 million fridge freezers.

Install the same overall level of demand control for a few hundred commercial or

industrial consumers and the payback for the customer is much quicker, the costs

of implementing it are significantly lower for all parties, the customer sees

100% return on their invested capital in five years or so. The infrastructure to

support this demand control exists now and has done for a few decades. Above

all it requires no investment from anyone but the customer.

All smart metering schemes will require wiring changes/appliance

changes/infrastructure changes. The benefit to the domestic end user is near

zero. The benefit to grid system operator and distribution network operator is

near zero. The only ones that benefit are the parasites supplying and

installing the appliances / equipment.





If the government keep their stupid fingers out, it won't be long before appliances with this feature are available for an extra £5.

No you'll be entered into a free prize draw....

An 8 bit cpu can respond to frequency,
Not that easily, and I doubt using that method would be very successful.
Far better to have teh aplience switched off on demand from the suplier than wait for the frequency to alter which would be difficult to measure cheaply.

Be silly to have to measure the frequency of every device.

and send the appliance serial number down the wiring now and then, and the power co software will automatically knock £1 off the bill.

Too much hassle and no need for it.

The customer is free to choose, and it'll become popular because & when its worth it.



With government involvement it'll be nothing but problems and one more parasite ripping us off. Seems they really cant help but be idiots.





NT

In article , John Williamson
wrote:
On 01/05/2013 10:40, Huge wrote:
On 2013-05-01, Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

If each appliance is fitted with a "smart device", then no changes
are needed to the home wiring. I would have thought is better to have
"essential" and "non-essential" circuits in every house.

And you think the teenagers are going to remember which socket to plug
something in to? Or the average person, come to that.

You think anyone is going to convert their existing house to that -
put all your furniture in storage, move out, have all the walls bashed
around to have a second set of cabling installed, replaster, complete
redecoration, move back in.

Dream on.

I've looked at 2 houses now that have parallel wiring systems for 110V
and BFO transformers tucked away somewhere. Most odd. I would have
thought it would have been *much* cheaper for American ex-pats to throw
away their electrical appliances and buy new ones here, and get a
proper washing machine into the bargain.


Ahbut, the Merkins think that *their* stuff is infintely superior to
anything available outside the US of A.

If they work for the forces, then moving stuff around the world is free
for them, and as they may move every few months....

Were the houses you looked at fairly close to a base, and in an estate
of suspiciously similar-looking ones? Almost as if they'd been built to
accommodate US personnel during the Cold War?

There was such an estate at the side of Holy Loch, near Dunoon, in the
70s. Even their tv came from the base ship which replayed tapes of US
programmes on a cable system.

--
From KT24

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.18

On 01/05/2013 08:18, harry wrote:
On Apr 30, 10:26 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/04/2013 06:15, harry wrote:









On Apr 29, 11:46 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC), (Andrew

Gabriel) wrote:
This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that on the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of generation (this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a frequency of around
48.8Hz. No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about in Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.

No, frequency and load are closely related....

As any generator is in parallel with others, the speed/frequency,
cannot change.

The logic does not follow. Since "the others" can and do change
frequency as a group, the frequency of any individual one *must* also
change so as to remain in sync.



--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On 01/05/13 10:47, Man at B&Q wrote:
On May 1, 3:37 am, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

A problem many have encountered in the RC electric plane world, where
controllers blow up at part throttle, not full (throttling being done
by chopping the supply) .Its critically linked to the leakage inductance
of the motors: low inductance (the best motors) will have massive peak
currents at part throttle.
In the model train world it's expensive coreless motors that brick if
the PWM frequency is too low.

MBQ
ah well we went high frequency many moons ago. For that very reason.




--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 01/05/13 10:50, Man at B&Q wrote:
On May 1, 8:18 am, harry wrote:

As any generator is in parallel with others, the speed/frequency,
cannot change.
It does.
across the whole grid, yes, not across any individual generator with
respect to any other.

MBQ



--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 01/05/13 11:09, Martin Brown wrote:
On 01/05/2013 10:40, Huge wrote:
On 2013-05-01, Tim Streater wrote:
In article
,
harry wrote:

If each appliance is fitted with a "smart device", then no changes are
needed to the home wiring.
I would have thought is better to have "essential" and
"non-essential" circuits in every house.

And you think the teenagers are going to remember which socket to plug
something in to? Or the average person, come to that.

You think anyone is going to convert their existing house to that - put
all your furniture in storage, move out, have all the walls bashed
around to have a second set of cabling installed, replaster, complete
redecoration, move back in.

Dream on.

I've looked at 2 houses now that have parallel wiring systems for
110V and
BFO transformers tucked away somewhere. Most odd. I would have
thought it
would have been *much* cheaper for American ex-pats to throw away their
electrical appliances and buy new ones here, and get a proper washing
machine into the bargain.

They are dumb enough to think that their gear is the best in the world.

The Japanese may actually have a point believing that but much of
their kit will run on anything since half the country is 50Hz and half
on 60Hz depending on whether it was under US or UK influence after WWII.

Most portable equipment sold in the ROW these days will accept 50-60Hz
100-240v ac and run quite happily. Americans still have 60Hz only 110v.

I still recall discovering how my Ronson electric razor was supposed
to work when I first visited the US. A crap design that relied on a
60Hz mechanical resonance. I have used Braun or a wet shave ever since.

One of the most curious and interesting projects I ever worked on was a
digital stiorage scope for Gould Advance which could run on anything
from 48vDC to 250VAC without changing any settings whatsoever. All
handled by a pretty good SMPS.


--
Ineptocracy

(in-ep-toc-ra-cy) €“ a system of government where the least capable to lead are elected by the least capable of producing, and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.

On 01/05/2013 11:26, John Rumm wrote:
On 01/05/2013 08:18, harry wrote:
On Apr 30, 10:26 pm, John Rumm wrote:
On 30/04/2013 06:15, harry wrote:

On Apr 29, 11:46 pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 14:24:18 +0000 (UTC),
(Andrew

Gabriel) wrote:
This is for EU-wide product supply.
UK had historically aimed to maintain +/-0.1Hz for no other reason
than CEGB had controls good enough to do so.
Much of the rest of the EU aims for +/-1Hz, and there may be some
EU synchronisation zones even outside that range.
The appliances will have to cope with the worst case.

There was someone on another group in the past few months, maybe
uk.railway? I
think the poster was possibly German, and they were claiming that
on the German
grid, the system frequency during the loss of 1.5 - 2GW of
generation (this
was a one trip, one site event) with a system loading of 50GW was
about 0.05Hz.

Yes you read that right zero point zero five hertz. So that's a
larger loss than
the Sizewell B Longannet incident of 2008 that resulted in a
frequency of around
48.8Hz. No, I didn't believe it either!

Not got any measurements in Germany but the frequency moves about
in Italy about
the same as the UK.

--

Frequency, load and efficiency are separate issues.

No, frequency and load are closely related....

As any generator is in parallel with others, the speed/frequency,
cannot change.

The logic does not follow. Since "the others" can and do change
frequency as a group, the frequency of any individual one *must* also
change so as to remain in sync.--

Indeed they keep the long term average frequency equal to 50.0000Hz but
the spot frequency is dependent on actual load. Notably they run faster
at night when the load is light - this used to be mildly annoying in the
bad old days when telescopes used mains synchronous motors.

--
Regards,
Martin Brown