On Mar 12, 2:27*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:22:56 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:41 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:31:16 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:49 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 19:27:58 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:37 am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:21:13 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 10, 10:15 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 21:40:14 -0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2012 20:30, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:10:38 -0000, NT wrote:

One could go even further: with an RCD there's very little theoretical
need for double insulation or earthing, one could simply use very thin
speaker wire.

It's the fire hazard that would concern me more. Speaker wire could get
snagged easily.

a tad over 2A is unlikely to do it much harm...

A minor short could easily occur if it's flimsy wire, which can cause a fire.

Either don't make the insulation flimsy, or do and have a little
consideration for where the wire goes. Bell wire isnt damaged by
normal use and abuse - but then its far from 0.16mm2.

Conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the
cable.

String is stronger than wire?

Is it? news to me.

No. *So why did you say "conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the cable"?

because they can be, and string's cheaper than more copper.

Make up your mind! *You just questioned me saying string is stronger than wire.

Perhaps the confusion isnt in my mind.

No, it's in your clarity with words.



Another approach I'm a lot less sure about is to use copper
clad steel to increase conductor strength.

Anyway, if you're not earthing, then brass lighting fixtures wouldn't be
protected against loose live wires,

The RCD does that. Or one can mandate only plastic and double
insulated metal fittings on such circuits.

How can an RCD protect it? *Since the fitting isn't earthed, there will be no current flow to earth. *The thing will sit there with a live chassis.

RCD protects against shock from live things by cutting the power if it
becomes live and you touch it.

I'd be more concerned about fire from the chassis being live and conducting to god knows what. *If the live wire is loose, the neutral might be too.

it current flows from L to somewhere earthy, the RCD trips.

And with no earthing in the lighting circuit like you suggested......

The CPC to the lights is usually not part of the shock path

It can't be if there is no earth in the lights! *Hence the shock will more likely be to a neutral....

....from someone I keep having to explain elementary stuff to.

NT

On Mar 12, 1:37*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:24:19 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:48 pm, John Williamson
wrote:
NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:49 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 19:27:58 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:37 am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:21:13 -0000, NT wrote:
Conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the
cable.
String is stronger than wire?
Is it? news to me.
No. *So why did you say "conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the cable"?

because they can be, and string's cheaper than more copper.

More to the point, it's cheaper and possibly stronger than the
insulation it displaces, though I've not seen it used this Century.

In fact, the last time I saw it used was in some rubber insulated,
cotton covered flex.

Yup, much more flexible too. 3 string flexes flop flat on the floor,
looking much nicer. I do wonder why its not commonplace today.

Because rubber perishes.

not even relevant

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:00:41 -0000, NT wrote:

On Mar 12, 2:27 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:22:56 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:41 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:31:16 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:49 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 19:27:58 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:37 am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:21:13 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 10, 10:15 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 21:40:14 -0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2012 20:30, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:10:38 -0000, NT wrote:

One could go even further: with an RCD there's very little theoretical
need for double insulation or earthing, one could simply use very thin
speaker wire.

It's the fire hazard that would concern me more. Speaker wire could get
snagged easily.

a tad over 2A is unlikely to do it much harm...

A minor short could easily occur if it's flimsy wire, which can cause a fire.

Either don't make the insulation flimsy, or do and have a little
consideration for where the wire goes. Bell wire isnt damaged by
normal use and abuse - but then its far from 0.16mm2.

Conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the
cable.

String is stronger than wire?

Is it? news to me.

No. So why did you say "conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the cable"?

because they can be, and string's cheaper than more copper.

Make up your mind! You just questioned me saying string is stronger than wire.

Perhaps the confusion isnt in my mind.

No, it's in your clarity with words.



Another approach I'm a lot less sure about is to use copper
clad steel to increase conductor strength.

Anyway, if you're not earthing, then brass lighting fixtures wouldn't be
protected against loose live wires,

The RCD does that. Or one can mandate only plastic and double
insulated metal fittings on such circuits.

How can an RCD protect it? Since the fitting isn't earthed, there will be no current flow to earth. The thing will sit there with a live chassis.

RCD protects against shock from live things by cutting the power if it
becomes live and you touch it.

I'd be more concerned about fire from the chassis being live and conducting to god knows what. If the live wire is loose, the neutral might be too.

it current flows from L to somewhere earthy, the RCD trips.

And with no earthing in the lighting circuit like you suggested......

The CPC to the lights is usually not part of the shock path

It can't be if there is no earth in the lights! Hence the shock will more likely be to a neutral....

...from someone I keep having to explain elementary stuff to.

What part of the absent earth meaning the fault will stay there don't you understand?

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

When advised that France had announced it would not assist, become allied with, or otherwise support the US in any war on Iraq, former US Presidential candidate Ross Perot reportedly said: "Having to go to war without France is sorta like having to go deer hunting without an accordion".

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:01:46 -0000, NT wrote:

On Mar 12, 1:37 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:24:19 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:48 pm, John Williamson
wrote:
NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:49 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 19:27:58 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:37 am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:21:13 -0000, NT wrote:
Conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the
cable.
String is stronger than wire?
Is it? news to me.
No. So why did you say "conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the cable"?

because they can be, and string's cheaper than more copper.

More to the point, it's cheaper and possibly stronger than the
insulation it displaces, though I've not seen it used this Century.

In fact, the last time I saw it used was in some rubber insulated,
cotton covered flex.

Yup, much more flexible too. 3 string flexes flop flat on the floor,
looking much nicer. I do wonder why its not commonplace today.

Because rubber perishes.

not even relevant

It's why it's not commonplace.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Seen in the back window of a car:
In case of emergency screw driver on back seat.

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
What on earth makes you think it's a bad idea?

The fact that a considerable number of them ended up with live foil ionsulation.

Thats why the govt had to inspect the lot, and found quite a few.

They could have looked where the cables were.

Not possible once you have the entire area covered in foil insulation and you are stapling it.

Remember where it is,

Not even possible if more than one person is doing it.

or do it a bit at a time.

You clearly have never done it.

Got him the darwin award.

Corse plenty of others risk killing someone else, particularly if they staple it with the power turned off and
dont even notice the problem they have produced.

Why would they turn the power off?

Because its possible to staple thru a power cable and kill yourself, stupid.

If they know that's possible, then they must know that when they turn it back on, the staple can cause a fire.

Much more likely to just see the insulation live.

Even the stupidest would notice that the fuse/breaker
keeps blowing when they turn the power on again.

Depends if the staple is big enough.

Nope.

I doubt too many of the indians know what it means either.

They have enough trouble with words like roof and insulation
but dont have any problem with words like dollar.

[titter]

It isnt hard to fix that. You just have insulwool immediately under the decking with chicken wire forcing it
against the decking.

I didnt bother myself, it doesnt rain that heavy enough to matter here.

Still be loud on the outside,

Nope. And I'm not stupid to be outside when its raining like that anyway.

Are you soluble?

Nope, just refer to stay dry in that sort of rain.

You're too stupid to even get out of the rain ?

Your problem.

It's only water.

Dunno why you bother with a roof at all.

and if you had a window open.

Nope.

Sound doesn't come through your open windows?

There is no sound to come in.

Rain hitting metal is loud.

Nope, not when its a pitched roof it isnt.

And it isnt with the metal fences either.

And it looks cheap and tacky.

You cant see it at all with a flat roof.

I just said that up there ;-)

Everyone can see for themselves that you didnt.

I most certainly did.

Everyone can see for themselves that you didnt.

I wrote it before I got to this bit, but after you wrote this bit.

But everyone can see you said nothing like what you claim you said.

His parents werent around at the time.

Then presumably the kid wanted to

You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fellas ?

I don't believe in age limits. Kids can make their own decisions.

Fortunately the regulatory authoritys have more of a clue than that.

Thats might just be why we dont let them drive around the streets etc etc etc.

If they can pass the test, why not?

Many of them cant even manage to look a back over their shoulders
when riding their bikes and not crash when they do that.

- was he forced to do it at gunpoint?

Nope.

Still stupid to let the kid do it.

Stupid kid to say yes.

Kids believe they are immortal. Thats why we use them in wars.

Darwin awards clean the gene pool.

It clearly hasnt helped with you.

An attic usually has a floor etc that you can walk on.

I've fitted a rudimentary floor in mine so I can store a lot of stuff up there, but otherwise you can simply place
the smoke alarm on a rafter you can reach from the hatch.

You need more than one, so that cant fly.

One is enough in mine. It's a small attic.

Most arent that small even in that soggy little island.

Yes they are.

No they arent.

Hardly anyone puts smoke detectors in the roof space

They should do. It's a lot more useful to be told about a fire you cannot see.

Sure, but there is a problem getting warned about needing
new batterys and even just hearing the alarm if it does go off.

Not what I've found.

Thats because you only have a tiny hovel.

I can hear the single little bleep of the low battery very easily.

And you may well not be able to do that when you get older.

The system has to allow for deaf old farts.

Most people don't go that deaf.

Plenty cant hear the low battery beep in a smoke alarm in the roof space.

Sure, wired alarms would work, but they arent legally
requited in roof spaces and few have them there.

**** the legal requirement, do what makes sense.

A single battery powered smoke detector that only kids can hear doesnt.

Most people don't go that deaf.

Plenty cant hear the low battery beep in a smoke alarm in the roof space.

and there is a problem with even hearing them if you do, let alone the batterys.

Not mine there isn't. They bleep very loudly, the sound goes
straight through a hatch, or through the plasterboard ceilnig.

Not necessarily if you have it well insulated and with a proper floor.

The hatch isn't insulated.

More fool you.

Why would I bother insulating that tiny bit? It has to be what....less than 1% of the area?

And doesnt even cost 1% of the cost of insulating the ceiling
to insulate it when you do it with the inevitable offcuts.

You could always wire the sounder (and battery) in the house and the detector in the roof space like I'm doing with
my garage.

You could always install a full sprinkler system in the roof space too.

Water makes a mess inside.

So does the roof space catching fire.

You'd need more than one.

If it's a big house maybe.

In a normal house too.

How many roof spaces do you have?

Its a ****ing big area, no single smoke detetector would be
viable and its far too far from one end to the other for anyone
to be able to hear the battery beep down the other end anyway.

You'd need the wired ones then.

I've actually got enough of a clue to do the wiring
properly so I wont have a fire in the roof space.

And thats a legal requirement anyway, it was always going to
be inspected before I was allowed to move in, even tho I did
it all myself and had an electrician mate of mine claim he did it.

You can get battery ones that connect together (or get mains ones, then you don't have to go into your chavvy
non-floored attic).

Dont have an attic, the roof space is only a tad over 1' deep
at most, not a lot of point in having a floor, we dont see too
many 10" midgets and even they wouldnt be able to walk
around in there, only the cat and the occassional mouse can
manage that and I dont plan to bother with a floor for them.

Then the house one will sound if the attic ones detect smoke.

There wont be any smoke. I did the wiring right.

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 21:32:21 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Lieutenant Scott wrote


The fact that a considerable number of them ended up with live foil ionsulation.

Thats why the govt had to inspect the lot, and found quite a few.

They could have looked where the cables were.

Not possible once you have the entire area covered in foil insulation and you are stapling it.

Remember where it is,

Not even possible if more than one person is doing it.

or do it a bit at a time.

You clearly have never done it.

Why use one huge piece?

Here we have fibreglass insulation.

Because its possible to staple thru a power cable and kill yourself, stupid.

If they know that's possible, then they must know that when they turn it back on, the staple can cause a fire.

Much more likely to just see the insulation live.

Even the stupidest would notice that the fuse/breaker
keeps blowing when they turn the power on again.

Depends if the staple is big enough.

Nope.

Yip. A small staple might not blow the fuse but could get very hot and start a fire.

Nope. And I'm not stupid to be outside when its raining like that anyway.

Are you soluble?

Nope, just refer to stay dry in that sort of rain.

You're too stupid to even get out of the rain ?

Your problem.

It's only water.

Dunno why you bother with a roof at all.

Because the household items don't like it.

Nope.

Sound doesn't come through your open windows?

There is no sound to come in.

Rain hitting metal is loud.

Nope, not when its a pitched roof it isnt.

I've heard it, and it is loud. It must be worse with a flat roof.

And it isnt with the metal fences either.

They have gaps.

You cant see it at all with a flat roof.

I just said that up there ;-)

Everyone can see for themselves that you didnt.

I most certainly did.

Everyone can see for themselves that you didnt.

I did. But not in the correct time frame.

I wrote it before I got to this bit, but after you wrote this bit.

But everyone can see you said nothing like what you claim you said.

I said exactly what you did.

You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fellas ?

I don't believe in age limits. Kids can make their own decisions.

Fortunately the regulatory authoritys have more of a clue than that.

Thats might just be why we dont let them drive around the streets etc etc etc.

If they can pass the test, why not?

Many of them cant even manage to look a back over their shoulders
when riding their bikes and not crash when they do that.

Then they would fail the test and not be allowed to drive. But I know kids that could drive better than a lot of adults if given the chance.

Nope.

Still stupid to let the kid do it.

Stupid kid to say yes.

Kids believe they are immortal. Thats why we use them in wars.

Darwin awards clean the gene pool.

It clearly hasnt helped with you.

My genes don't need a wash.

You need more than one, so that cant fly.

One is enough in mine. It's a small attic.

Most arent that small even in that soggy little island.

Yes they are.

No they arent.

Go check the average house size.

Sure, but there is a problem getting warned about needing
new batterys and even just hearing the alarm if it does go off.

Not what I've found.

Thats because you only have a tiny hovel.

I can hear the single little bleep of the low battery very easily.

And you may well not be able to do that when you get older.

The system has to allow for deaf old farts.

Most people don't go that deaf.

Plenty cant hear the low battery beep in a smoke alarm in the roof space.

I do not believe that most people are deafer than me.

Sure, wired alarms would work, but they arent legally
requited in roof spaces and few have them there.

**** the legal requirement, do what makes sense.

A single battery powered smoke detector that only kids can hear doesnt.

Most people don't go that deaf.

Plenty cant hear the low battery beep in a smoke alarm in the roof space.

Stop repeating yourself :-P

Not necessarily if you have it well insulated and with a proper floor.

The hatch isn't insulated.

More fool you.

Why would I bother insulating that tiny bit? It has to be what....less than 1% of the area?

And doesnt even cost 1% of the cost of insulating the ceiling
to insulate it when you do it with the inevitable offcuts.

And when I opened it bits of insulation would go everywhere.

You could always wire the sounder (and battery) in the house and the detector in the roof space like I'm doing with
my garage.

You could always install a full sprinkler system in the roof space too.

Water makes a mess inside.

So does the roof space catching fire.

If it alerts you, you can go up there with a CO2.

In a normal house too.

How many roof spaces do you have?

Its a ****ing big area, no single smoke detetector would be
viable and its far too far from one end to the other for anyone
to be able to hear the battery beep down the other end anyway.

You'd need the wired ones then.

I've actually got enough of a clue to do the wiring
properly so I wont have a fire in the roof space.

You never know.

And thats a legal requirement anyway, it was always going to
be inspected before I was allowed to move in, even tho I did
it all myself and had an electrician mate of mine claim he did it.

They've recently brought in nanny rules here about SELLING your house, but what you do with your own home is surely your own business.

You can get battery ones that connect together (or get mains ones, then you don't have to go into your chavvy
non-floored attic).

Dont have an attic, the roof space is only a tad over 1' deep
at most,

Chavvy flat roof.

not a lot of point in having a floor, we dont see too
many 10" midgets and even they wouldnt be able to walk
around in there, only the cat and the occassional mouse can
manage that and I dont plan to bother with a floor for them.

The occasional wire eating mouse. Or a possum.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Why do our kids have to take the Iowa Test for Basic Skills?
Why can't we have a Georgia Test of Basic Skills with questions like,
"Bubba's got three cars and he done traded for two more. How many cement blocks is Bubba gonna need?"

On Mar 12, 7:03*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:00:41 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:27 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:22:56 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:41 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:31:16 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:49 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 19:27:58 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:37 am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:21:13 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 10, 10:15 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 21:40:14 -0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2012 20:30, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:10:38 -0000, NT wrote:

One could go even further: with an RCD there's very little theoretical
need for double insulation or earthing, one could simply use very thin
speaker wire.

It's the fire hazard that would concern me more. Speaker wire could get
snagged easily.

a tad over 2A is unlikely to do it much harm...

A minor short could easily occur if it's flimsy wire, which can cause a fire.

Either don't make the insulation flimsy, or do and have a little
consideration for where the wire goes. Bell wire isnt damaged by
normal use and abuse - but then its far from 0.16mm2.

Conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the
cable.

String is stronger than wire?

Is it? news to me.

No. *So why did you say "conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the cable"?

because they can be, and string's cheaper than more copper.

Make up your mind! *You just questioned me saying string is stronger than wire.

Perhaps the confusion isnt in my mind.

No, it's in your clarity with words.

Another approach I'm a lot less sure about is to use copper
clad steel to increase conductor strength.

Anyway, if you're not earthing, then brass lighting fixtures wouldn't be
protected against loose live wires,

The RCD does that. Or one can mandate only plastic and double
insulated metal fittings on such circuits.

How can an RCD protect it? *Since the fitting isn't earthed, there will be no current flow to earth. *The thing will sit there with a live chassis.

RCD protects against shock from live things by cutting the power if it
becomes live and you touch it.

I'd be more concerned about fire from the chassis being live and conducting to god knows what. *If the live wire is loose, the neutral might be too.

it current flows from L to somewhere earthy, the RCD trips.

And with no earthing in the lighting circuit like you suggested.......

The CPC to the lights is usually not part of the shock path

It can't be if there is no earth in the lights! *Hence the shock will more likely be to a neutral....

...from someone I keep having to explain elementary stuff to.

What part of the absent earth meaning the fault will stay there don't you understand?

What I dont understand is how someone can be so sure of themselves
when they have such a profound lack of knowledge on the topic


NT

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 23:17:16 -0000, NT wrote:

On Mar 12, 7:03 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:00:41 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:27 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:22:56 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:41 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:31:16 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:49 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 19:27:58 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:37 am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:21:13 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 10, 10:15 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 21:40:14 -0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2012 20:30, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:10:38 -0000, NT wrote:

One could go even further: with an RCD there's very little theoretical
need for double insulation or earthing, one could simply use very thin
speaker wire.

It's the fire hazard that would concern me more. Speaker wire could get
snagged easily.

a tad over 2A is unlikely to do it much harm...

A minor short could easily occur if it's flimsy wire, which can cause a fire.

Either don't make the insulation flimsy, or do and have a little
consideration for where the wire goes. Bell wire isnt damaged by
normal use and abuse - but then its far from 0.16mm2.

Conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the
cable.

String is stronger than wire?

Is it? news to me.

No. So why did you say "conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the cable"?

because they can be, and string's cheaper than more copper.

Make up your mind! You just questioned me saying string is stronger than wire.

Perhaps the confusion isnt in my mind.

No, it's in your clarity with words.

Another approach I'm a lot less sure about is to use copper
clad steel to increase conductor strength.

Anyway, if you're not earthing, then brass lighting fixtures wouldn't be
protected against loose live wires,

The RCD does that. Or one can mandate only plastic and double
insulated metal fittings on such circuits.

How can an RCD protect it? Since the fitting isn't earthed, there will be no current flow to earth. The thing will sit there with a live chassis.

RCD protects against shock from live things by cutting the power if it
becomes live and you touch it.

I'd be more concerned about fire from the chassis being live and conducting to god knows what. If the live wire is loose, the neutral might be too.

it current flows from L to somewhere earthy, the RCD trips.

And with no earthing in the lighting circuit like you suggested......

The CPC to the lights is usually not part of the shock path

It can't be if there is no earth in the lights! Hence the shock will more likely be to a neutral....

...from someone I keep having to explain elementary stuff to.

What part of the absent earth meaning the fault will stay there don't you understand?

What I dont understand is how someone can be so sure of themselves
when they have such a profound lack of knowledge on the topic

What I don't understand is why you want to know everything.


--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

When you own Llamas... spit happens

Squady Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Squady Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Squady Scott wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Squady Scott wrote

The fact that a considerable number of them ended up with live foil ionsulation.

Thats why the govt had to inspect the lot, and found quite a few.

They could have looked where the cables were.

Not possible once you have the entire area covered in foil insulation and you are stapling it.

Remember where it is,

Not even possible if more than one person is doing it.

or do it a bit at a time.

You clearly have never done it.

Why use one huge piece?

Never said anything about one huge piece.

Here we have fibreglass insulation.

We have a hell of a lot more than just two sorts.

Because its possible to staple thru a power cable and kill yourself, stupid.

If they know that's possible, then they must know that when they turn it back on, the staple can cause a fire.

Much more likely to just see the insulation live.

Even the stupidest would notice that the fuse/breaker
keeps blowing when they turn the power on again.

Depends if the staple is big enough.

Nope.

Yip.

You one of those horrible little dogs ?

A small staple might not blow the fuse but could get very hot and start a fire.

Fantasy.

Nope. And I'm not stupid to be outside when its raining like that anyway.

Are you soluble?

Nope, just refer to stay dry in that sort of rain.

You're too stupid to even get out of the rain ?

Your problem.

It's only water.

Dunno why you bother with a roof at all.

Because the household items don't like it.

So why do you run outside whenever it rains like a little kid ?

Nope.

Sound doesn't come through your open windows?

There is no sound to come in.

Rain hitting metal is loud.

Nope, not when its a pitched roof it isnt.

I've heard it, and it is loud.

Fraid not.

It must be worse with a flat roof.

And it isnt with the metal fences either.

They have gaps.

Nope.

You cant see it at all with a flat roof.

I just said that up there ;-)

Everyone can see for themselves that you didnt.

I most certainly did.

Everyone can see for themselves that you didnt.

I did.

Everyone can see for themselves that you didnt.

But not in the correct time frame.

Everyone can see for themselves that you didnt.

I wrote it before I got to this bit, but after you wrote this bit.

But everyone can see you said nothing like what you claim you said.

I said exactly what you did.

Everyone can see for themselves that you didnt.

You quite sure you aint one of those rocket scientist fellas ?

I don't believe in age limits. Kids can make their own decisions.

Fortunately the regulatory authoritys have more of a clue than that.

Thats might just be why we dont let them drive around the streets etc etc etc.

If they can pass the test, why not?

Many of them cant even manage to look a back over their shoulders
when riding their bikes and not crash when they do that.

Then they would fail the test and not be allowed to drive. But I know kids that could drive better than a lot of
adults if given the chance.

We arent actually stupid enough to waste the testers time with all the kids that cant.

Cant imagine why for the life of me.

Nope.

Still stupid to let the kid do it.

Stupid kid to say yes.

Kids believe they are immortal. Thats why we use them in wars.

Darwin awards clean the gene pool.

It clearly hasnt helped with you.

My genes don't need a wash.

Wrong, as always.

You need more than one, so that cant fly.

One is enough in mine. It's a small attic.

Most arent that small even in that soggy little island.

Yes they are.

No they arent.

Go check the average house size.

Dont need to.

Sure, but there is a problem getting warned about needing
new batterys and even just hearing the alarm if it does go off.

Not what I've found.

Thats because you only have a tiny hovel.

I can hear the single little bleep of the low battery very easily.

And you may well not be able to do that when you get older.

The system has to allow for deaf old farts.

Most people don't go that deaf.

Plenty cant hear the low battery beep in a smoke alarm in the roof space.

I do not believe that most people are deafer than me.

More fool you.

Sure, wired alarms would work, but they arent legally
requited in roof spaces and few have them there.

**** the legal requirement, do what makes sense.

A single battery powered smoke detector that only kids can hear doesnt.

Most people don't go that deaf.

Plenty cant hear the low battery beep in a smoke alarm in the roof space.

Stop repeating yourself :-P

Get stuffed. No smiley, thats an order, squady.

Not necessarily if you have it well insulated and with a proper floor.

The hatch isn't insulated.

More fool you.

Why would I bother insulating that tiny bit? It has to be what....less than 1% of the area?

And doesnt even cost 1% of the cost of insulating the ceiling
to insulate it when you do it with the inevitable offcuts.

And when I opened it bits of insulation would go everywhere.

Not if you do it properly they wont.

You could always wire the sounder (and battery) in the house and the detector in the roof space like I'm doing
with my garage.

You could always install a full sprinkler system in the roof space too.

Water makes a mess inside.

So does the roof space catching fire.

If it alerts you, you can go up there with a CO2.

Only if you happen to be there at the time.

In a normal house too.

How many roof spaces do you have?

Its a ****ing big area, no single smoke detetector would be
viable and its far too far from one end to the other for anyone
to be able to hear the battery beep down the other end anyway.

You'd need the wired ones then.

I've actually got enough of a clue to do the wiring
properly so I wont have a fire in the roof space.

You never know.

Corse I do, I have the stats that prove that I wont.

And thats a legal requirement anyway, it was always going to
be inspected before I was allowed to move in, even tho I did
it all myself and had an electrician mate of mine claim he did it.

They've recently brought in nanny rules here about SELLING your house, but what you do with your own home is surely
your own business.

Fraid not.

You can get battery ones that connect together (or get mains ones,
then you don't have to go into your chavvy non-floored attic).

Dont have an attic, the roof space is only a tad over 1' deep at most,

Chavvy flat roof.

Leaves your tiny little hovel for dead.

not a lot of point in having a floor, we dont see too
many 10" midgets and even they wouldnt be able to walk
around in there, only the cat and the occassional mouse can
manage that and I dont plan to bother with a floor for them.

The occasional wire eating mouse. Or a possum.

Neither need a floor, they are quite happy to walk around on whats there.

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:17:16 -0700 (PDT), NT
wrote:

On Mar 12, 7:03*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:00:41 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:27 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:22:56 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:41 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:31:16 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:49 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 19:27:58 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:37 am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:21:13 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 10, 10:15 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 21:40:14 -0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2012 20:30, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:10:38 -0000, NT wrote:

One could go even further: with an RCD there's very little theoretical
need for double insulation or earthing, one could simply use very thin
speaker wire.

It's the fire hazard that would concern me more. Speaker wire could get
snagged easily.

a tad over 2A is unlikely to do it much harm...

A minor short could easily occur if it's flimsy wire, which can cause a fire.

Either don't make the insulation flimsy, or do and have a little
consideration for where the wire goes. Bell wire isnt damaged by
normal use and abuse - but then its far from 0.16mm2.

Conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the
cable.

String is stronger than wire?

Is it? news to me.

No. *So why did you say "conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the cable"?

because they can be, and string's cheaper than more copper.

Make up your mind! *You just questioned me saying string is stronger than wire.

Perhaps the confusion isnt in my mind.

No, it's in your clarity with words.

Another approach I'm a lot less sure about is to use copper
clad steel to increase conductor strength.

Anyway, if you're not earthing, then brass lighting fixtures wouldn't be
protected against loose live wires,

The RCD does that. Or one can mandate only plastic and double
insulated metal fittings on such circuits.

How can an RCD protect it? *Since the fitting isn't earthed, there will be no current flow to earth. *The thing will sit there with a live chassis.

RCD protects against shock from live things by cutting the power if it
becomes live and you touch it.

I'd be more concerned about fire from the chassis being live and conducting to god knows what. *If the live wire is loose, the neutral might be too.

it current flows from L to somewhere earthy, the RCD trips.

And with no earthing in the lighting circuit like you suggested......

The CPC to the lights is usually not part of the shock path

It can't be if there is no earth in the lights! *Hence the shock will more likely be to a neutral....

...from someone I keep having to explain elementary stuff to.

What part of the absent earth meaning the fault will stay there don't you understand?

What I dont understand is how someone can be so sure of themselves
when they have such a profound lack of knowledge on the topic

Because people are prepared to argue with him he feels that he's a
vital contributor to the discussion...

He's probably a loner with no proper friends.

--
Frank Erskine

NT wrote:
On Mar 12, 7:03 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:00:41 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:27 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:22:56 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:41 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:31:16 -0000, NT
wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:49 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 19:27:58 -0000, NT
wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:37 am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:21:13 -0000, NT
wrote:
On Mar 10, 10:15 pm, "Lieutenant Scott"
wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 21:40:14 -0000, John Rumm
wrote:
On 10/03/2012 20:30, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:10:38 -0000, NT
wrote:

One could go even further: with an RCD there's very
little theoretical need for double insulation or
earthing, one could simply use very thin speaker wire.

It's the fire hazard that would concern me more. Speaker
wire could get snagged easily.

a tad over 2A is unlikely to do it much harm...

A minor short could easily occur if it's flimsy wire,
which can cause a fire.

Either don't make the insulation flimsy, or do and have a
little consideration for where the wire goes. Bell wire
isnt damaged by normal use and abuse - but then its far
from 0.16mm2.

Conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including
string in the cable.

String is stronger than wire?

Is it? news to me.

No. So why did you say "conductors can easily be reinforced by
simply including string in the cable"?

because they can be, and string's cheaper than more copper.

Make up your mind! You just questioned me saying string is
stronger than wire.

Perhaps the confusion isnt in my mind.

No, it's in your clarity with words.

Another approach I'm a lot less sure about is to use copper
clad steel to increase conductor strength.

Anyway, if you're not earthing, then brass lighting
fixtures wouldn't be protected against loose live wires,

The RCD does that. Or one can mandate only plastic and
double insulated metal fittings on such circuits.

How can an RCD protect it? Since the fitting isn't earthed,
there will be no current flow to earth. The thing will sit
there with a live chassis.

RCD protects against shock from live things by cutting the
power if it becomes live and you touch it.

I'd be more concerned about fire from the chassis being live
and conducting to god knows what. If the live wire is loose,
the neutral might be too.

it current flows from L to somewhere earthy, the RCD trips.

And with no earthing in the lighting circuit like you
suggested......

The CPC to the lights is usually not part of the shock path

It can't be if there is no earth in the lights! Hence the shock
will more likely be to a neutral....

...from someone I keep having to explain elementary stuff to.

What part of the absent earth meaning the fault will stay there
don't you understand?

What I dont understand is how someone can be so sure of themselves
when they have such a profound lack of knowledge on the topic

Usual thing, 'employ them when they are still young, while they still know everything"

On Mar 13, 12:28*am, Frank Erskine
wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:17:16 -0700 (PDT), NT
wrote:



On Mar 12, 7:03*pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:00:41 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:27 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:22:56 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:41 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:31:16 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:49 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 19:27:58 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:37 am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:21:13 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 10, 10:15 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 21:40:14 -0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2012 20:30, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:10:38 -0000, NT wrote:

What part of the absent earth meaning the fault will stay there don't you understand?

What I dont understand is how someone can be so sure of themselves
when they have such a profound lack of knowledge on the topic

Because people are prepared to argue with him he feels that he's a
vital contributor to the discussion...

makes sense

He's probably a loner with no proper friends.


NT

Lieutenant Scott wrote:

[snip]

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.re...sg/6a621eace9a
eb11f

yawn that was the kicked-arse Animal rights terrorist "pete" who had a
hissy fit when it was pointed out that he was a liar, with the evidence
to support the statement.

http://www.mac-help.com/t198755-stev...usion-kid.html


Same source.

http://www.diy-forum.net/re-mrsa-cou...h-firth-consul
ting-ltd-and-gisberto-co-uk-still-bullying-and-cyberstalking-t53835.htm
l

Same source.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch...ulture/2008-01
/msg01595.html

Same source.

Wonderful, so your claims that "15" people have killfiled me in the
"driving groups" have come down to one lame-arsed tosser with a grudge
because he was shown to be a stupid lame-arsed tosser. Not only that bue
there's not a single mention of killfiling me, just a one-trick pony
hammering away with the same crap and only one of ht egroups is a
"driving group".

Even someone as ****witted as you would have noticed that each of those
posts is near identical. I'm fairly convinced that a tosser like you
would not have noticed that the majority of those groups have nothing to
do with driving.

You've been caught out again PHucker, telling lies and talking bull****.
It's something that you are very good at. It's a shame that you can't do
as well with common sense, integrity and honesty, isn't it?

On Wed, 14 Mar 2012 08:51:01 -0000, Steve Firth wrote:

Lieutenant Scott wrote:

[snip]

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.re...sg/6a621eace9a
eb11f

yawn that was the kicked-arse Animal rights terrorist "pete" who had a
hissy fit when it was pointed out that he was a liar, with the evidence
to support the statement.

http://www.mac-help.com/t198755-stev...usion-kid.html


Same source.

http://www.diy-forum.net/re-mrsa-cou...h-firth-consul
ting-ltd-and-gisberto-co-uk-still-bullying-and-cyberstalking-t53835.htm
l

Same source.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch...ulture/2008-01
/msg01595.html
Same source.

Wonderful, so your claims that "15" people have killfiled me in the
"driving groups" have come down to one lame-arsed tosser with a grudge
because he was shown to be a stupid lame-arsed tosser. Not only that bue
there's not a single mention of killfiling me, just a one-trick pony
hammering away with the same crap and only one of ht egroups is a
"driving group".

Even someone as ****witted as you would have noticed that each of those
posts is near identical. I'm fairly convinced that a tosser like you
would not have noticed that the majority of those groups have nothing to
do with driving.

You've been caught out again PHucker, telling lies and talking bull****.
It's something that you are very good at. It's a shame that you can't do
as well with common sense, integrity and honesty, isn't it?

I just did a search to see if you were infamous. This is nothing to do with my driving group claim which came about in some thread we were both in a number of months ago where several people asked me and others why we were bothering to reply to you as they had you killfiled.

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Remember when you were kid and you used to blow bubbles?
Well, I saw him the other day and he says hello.

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:34:06 -0000, Rod Speed wrote:

NT wrote:
On Mar 12, 7:03 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:00:41 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:27 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
It can't be if there is no earth in the lights! Hence the shock
will more likely be to a neutral....

...from someone I keep having to explain elementary stuff to.

What part of the absent earth meaning the fault will stay there
don't you understand?

What I dont understand is how someone can be so sure of themselves
when they have such a profound lack of knowledge on the topic

Usual thing, 'employ them when they are still young, while they still know everything"

...... and haven't become bogged down with rules and regulations, but still use common sense.


--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Sensitivity - The politically correct term for political correctness.

On Tue, 13 Mar 2012 00:28:07 -0000, Frank Erskine wrote:

On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 16:17:16 -0700 (PDT), NT
wrote:

On Mar 12, 7:03 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 19:00:41 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:27 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:22:56 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 8:41 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 20:31:16 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 7:49 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 19:27:58 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 11, 10:37 am, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sun, 11 Mar 2012 01:21:13 -0000, NT wrote:
On Mar 10, 10:15 pm, "Lieutenant Scott" wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 21:40:14 -0000, John Rumm wrote:
On 10/03/2012 20:30, Lieutenant Scott wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:10:38 -0000, NT wrote:

One could go even further: with an RCD there's very little theoretical
need for double insulation or earthing, one could simply use very thin
speaker wire.

It's the fire hazard that would concern me more. Speaker wire could get
snagged easily.

a tad over 2A is unlikely to do it much harm...

A minor short could easily occur if it's flimsy wire, which can cause a fire.

Either don't make the insulation flimsy, or do and have a little
consideration for where the wire goes. Bell wire isnt damaged by
normal use and abuse - but then its far from 0.16mm2.

Conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the
cable.

String is stronger than wire?

Is it? news to me.

No. So why did you say "conductors can easily be reinforced by simply including string in the cable"?

because they can be, and string's cheaper than more copper.

Make up your mind! You just questioned me saying string is stronger than wire.

Perhaps the confusion isnt in my mind.

No, it's in your clarity with words.

Another approach I'm a lot less sure about is to use copper
clad steel to increase conductor strength.

Anyway, if you're not earthing, then brass lighting fixtures wouldn't be
protected against loose live wires,

The RCD does that. Or one can mandate only plastic and double
insulated metal fittings on such circuits.

How can an RCD protect it? Since the fitting isn't earthed, there will be no current flow to earth. The thing will sit there with a live chassis.

RCD protects against shock from live things by cutting the power if it
becomes live and you touch it.

I'd be more concerned about fire from the chassis being live and conducting to god knows what. If the live wire is loose, the neutral might be too.

it current flows from L to somewhere earthy, the RCD trips.

And with no earthing in the lighting circuit like you suggested......

The CPC to the lights is usually not part of the shock path

It can't be if there is no earth in the lights! Hence the shock will more likely be to a neutral....

...from someone I keep having to explain elementary stuff to.

What part of the absent earth meaning the fault will stay there don't you understand?

What I dont understand is how someone can be so sure of themselves
when they have such a profound lack of knowledge on the topic

Because people are prepared to argue with him he feels that he's a
vital contributor to the discussion...

He's probably a loner with no proper friends.

Or maybe I'm just asking questions and pointing out your mistakes......

--
http://petersparrots.com
http://petersphotos.com

Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.

Lieutenant Scott wrote:
Because people are prepared to argue with him he feels that he's a
vital contributor to the discussion...

He's probably a loner with no proper friends.

Or maybe I'm just asking questions and pointing out your
mistakes......

You are asking stupid questions.

--
Adam

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
...
Lieutenant Scott wrote:
Because people are prepared to argue with him he feels that he's a
vital contributor to the discussion...

He's probably a loner with no proper friends.

Or maybe I'm just asking questions and pointing out your
mistakes......

You are asking stupid questions.

You only have to see the crap he types in demon.local like the other
numpties.
Actually, demon.local should be thickly (appropriate) padded all over.