recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??

Cheers
Jim K

In article
, Jim
K writes
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

You're not havin much fun on this one are you?

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??

Unless you screwed it up I wouldn't expect so. You can make a reasonable
measurement of your tracking (well, toe-in at least) by using a couple
of long straight planks between the front and back wheels (same track
preferred) and calculating it from the difference in distance from the
plank to the front and rear of the front rims and the dist between the
measurement points (if that makes sense).

I've used nylon bushes on a car that had a bad rep for suspension
sloppiness, without a discernable increase in road noise.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

Jim K wrote:
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking

yes

for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??


possibly
Cheers
Jim K

On Jan 22, 8:46*pm, Jim K wrote:
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

It's a bitburp late so I'm not completely getting this.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the

as long as some is.

car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??

Although I havn't a clue whaT YOUR SHORTHAND REPRESENTS, THE ANSWER IS
" IT COULD".


Even in capitals.

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:46:04 -0800, Jim K wrote:

recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was pleasantly
surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged. Duly replaced
with heavy duty items a day ago.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the car
at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

possibly tyre wear-related; probably worth rotating the tyres just to see
if it goes away.

cheers

Jules

On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:46:04 -0800 (PST), Jim K
wrote:

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.?

No

or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ?

Yes


--

On Jan 22, 11:46*pm, The Other Mike
wrote:
On Sun, 22 Jan 2012 12:46:04 -0800 (PST), Jim K
wrote:

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.?

No

or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ?

Yes

--

So, you got the code?

Did on a friends Honda whateveritwas.
Brian

--
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email:
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________


"thirty-six" wrote in message
...
On Jan 22, 8:46 pm, Jim K wrote:
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

It's a bitburp late so I'm not completely getting this.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the

as long as some is.

car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??

Although I havn't a clue whaT YOUR SHORTHAND REPRESENTS, THE ANSWER IS
" IT COULD".


Even in capitals.

thirty-six wrote:

So, you got the code?

Not that difficult, since the answers were already in the
question.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

On Jan 23, 7:18 am, Chris J Dixon wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
So, you got the code?

Not that difficult, since the answers were already in the
question.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

thanks so far chaps.

ARB affecting tracking - for those who say "yes"- Why?

(on the car the ARB is secured to some crossmember by the ARB bushes/
clamps, then at the ends a weedy double ball jointed link connects
each end of the ARB up to the suspension strut. When I did the swap,
undoing the AR bush clamps allowed the ARB to move easily, swaying on
the (untouched) links (as described above). Replacing the bushes was
straightforward enough given how tight access is under there. )

So I am intrigued why some think the tracking/alignments etc could be
affected ??

Cheers
Jim K

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.?

If the old bushes had collapsed then the suspension angles will be different
with new bushes.
Without knowing which bushes had/had not collapsed its a bit difficult to
know what the changes will be.
The tracking could be different.

or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??

Using a firmer material for a bush will lead to more vibrations being
transmitted.
This doesn't always mean more noise as it may be absorbed elsewhere.
It could lead to resonances that weren't noticeable before.

You could put in more soundproofing or turn the radio up.

Jim K wrote:
On Jan 23, 7:18 am, Chris J Dixon wrote:
thirty-six wrote:
So, you got the code?
Not that difficult, since the answers were already in the
question.

Chris
--
Chris J Dixon Nottingham UK


Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

thanks so far chaps.

ARB affecting tracking - for those who say "yes"- Why?

(on the car the ARB is secured to some crossmember by the ARB bushes/
clamps, then at the ends a weedy double ball jointed link connects
each end of the ARB up to the suspension strut. When I did the swap,
undoing the AR bush clamps allowed the ARB to move easily, swaying on
the (untouched) links (as described above). Replacing the bushes was
straightforward enough given how tight access is under there. )

So I am intrigued why some think the tracking/alignments etc could be
affected ??


Depends if there was any slop anywhere else. And how the ARB is located
to the moving suspension parts. SOME put quite high stresses on them.


Cheers
Jim K

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:43:41 -0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

"Jim K" wrote in message
...

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.?

If the old bushes had collapsed then the suspension angles will be different
with new bushes.

It's a pure anti roll bar in the conventional sense (spring/torsion
bar linked to a suspension arm coupled through to an opposing wheel)
it doesn't affect the geometry in terms of toe in or toe out at a
particular amount of suspension movement from full bounce to full
droop at all.

Measure the toe at normal ride height

Alter the ride height by jacking the vehicle body or compressing the
suspension with some ratchet straps

Normal ride height toe = x
full bounce toe = x + y
full droop toe = x - z

Take the anti roll bar off and test again

The measurements of toe will be identical

Fit the anti roll bar with no bushes and very loose bolts and test
again

The measurement of toe will be identical

Fit new bushes on one side and cut the anti roll bar with a hacksaw
and test again

The measurement of toe will be identical

y and z can be positive or negative depending on amongst other things
the steering rack height and the position of the steering arms in
space.

The shape, material, spring rate, bush characteristic mounting, and
everything associated with the anti roll bar make absolutely bugger
all difference to the toe readings.

--

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??


I assume ARB means Anti Roll Bar. If so then no, the ARB does nothing to
control tracking or any other part of the suspension geometry. With most
vehicle you can throw them away and the only difference will be increased
body roll.

It probably is that the new bushes are merely transferring vibration that
was already there. Try stroking across the tyre surface to feel if the tread
is uneven. If the tracking is out you can often feel more resistance in one
direction than the other due to the tread being "feathered". Another common
cause of increased road noise is "Blocking" meaning the tread blocks are
wearing unevenly. Slowly spin a raised wheel and look for tread blocks of
differing heights, again stroke the surface, but around the tread this time,
and feel for uneven blocks.
A simple tracking check is to tie a long length of string all the way around
all four wheels. With the steering set straight ahead you can get a rough
idea if the tracking is toeing in or out, and even see if it is a long way
out.

Mike

In article
,
Jim K wrote:
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??

Changing the material the bushes are made from - like say rubber to
polythene - is very likely to transmit more noise and vibration. Car
makers spend a deal of time choosing the best material for a NVH/life
compromise.

--
*Why don't sheep shrink when it rains?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article , MuddyMike
writes

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??


I assume ARB means Anti Roll Bar. If so then no, the ARB does nothing to
control tracking or any other part of the suspension geometry. With most
vehicle you can throw them away and the only difference will be increased
body roll.

Very common for the anti-roll bar to control the front to back position
of the wheels in a simple MacPherson strut system and so the toeing.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

On Jan 23, 3:13 pm, fred wrote:
In article , MuddyMike
writes



"Jim K" wrote in message
...
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??

I assume ARB means Anti Roll Bar. If so then no, the ARB does nothing to
control tracking or any other part of the suspension geometry. With most
vehicle you can throw them away and the only difference will be increased
body roll.

Very common for the anti-roll bar to control the front to back position
of the wheels in a simple MacPherson strut system and so the toeing.

in this case the double jointed ARB links at each end allow all sorts
of movements, when just one ARB bushing was removed the whole lot (ARB
links intact & untouched) was easily moved fore and aft and even
sideways - the sh@gged other side's bush not offering much resistance
I expect)

I can't currently see how in this case they could be relied on to
control the position of anything ;))

Any lazy visual means to gauge front wheel alignment? light spray of
white primer across treads & see how it's worn after a couple of
miles??

Jim K

fred wrote:
In article , MuddyMike
writes

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.

However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??


I assume ARB means Anti Roll Bar. If so then no, the ARB does nothing to
control tracking or any other part of the suspension geometry. With most
vehicle you can throw them away and the only difference will be
increased
body roll.

Very common for the anti-roll bar to control the front to back position
of the wheels in a simple MacPherson strut system and so the toeing.

I've not seen that, but its seldom that an ARB does not exert some force
on the suspension links in some direction or other. If any of the fore
and aft control bushes have any play, that will change the tracking.

Jim K wrote:
On Jan 23, 3:13 pm, fred wrote:
In article , MuddyMike
writes



"Jim K" wrote in message
...
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.
However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....
Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??
I assume ARB means Anti Roll Bar. If so then no, the ARB does nothing to
control tracking or any other part of the suspension geometry. With most
vehicle you can throw them away and the only difference will be increased
body roll.
Very common for the anti-roll bar to control the front to back position
of the wheels in a simple MacPherson strut system and so the toeing.

in this case the double jointed ARB links at each end allow all sorts
of movements, when just one ARB bushing was removed the whole lot (ARB
links intact & untouched) was easily moved fore and aft and even
sideways - the sh@gged other side's bush not offering much resistance
I expect)

I can't currently see how in this case they could be relied on to
control the position of anything ;))

Any lazy visual means to gauge front wheel alignment? light spray of
white primer across treads & see how it's worn after a couple of
miles??

taker it to a Place wot does it - its a matter of minutes with the
correct machine.

Jim K

On Jan 23, 7:28 pm, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:
Jim K wrote:
On Jan 23, 3:13 pm, fred wrote:
In article , MuddyMike
writes

"Jim K" wrote in message
...
recently asked re anti roll bar drop links "knocking" and was
pleasantly surprised to find it wasthe ARB bushes that were sh@gged.
Duly replaced with heavy duty items a day ago.
However now I'm getting a "knobbly tyre on road" type noise *in* the
car at 30mph or above - speed related, but not engine related....
Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.? or is the firmer
material of the HD bushes likely to be transferring more road vibes
into the "chassis" ? or something else??
I assume ARB means Anti Roll Bar. If so then no, the ARB does nothing to
control tracking or any other part of the suspension geometry. With most
vehicle you can throw them away and the only difference will be increased
body roll.
Very common for the anti-roll bar to control the front to back position
of the wheels in a simple MacPherson strut system and so the toeing.

in this case the double jointed ARB links at each end allow all sorts
of movements, when just one ARB bushing was removed the whole lot (ARB
links intact & untouched) was easily moved fore and aft and even
sideways - the sh@gged other side's bush not offering much resistance
I expect)

I can't currently see how in this case they could be relied on to
control the position of anything ;))

Any lazy visual means to gauge front wheel alignment? light spray of
white primer across treads & see how it's worn after a couple of
miles??

taker it to a Place wot does it - its a matter of minutes with the
correct machine.

well indeed.
and funny how it *always* "needs doing mate" isn't it?

Jim K

"The Other Mike" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:43:41 -0000, "dennis@home"
wrote:

"Jim K" wrote in message
...

Can changing ARB bushes affect tracking for e.g.?

If the old bushes had collapsed then the suspension angles will be
different
with new bushes.

It's a pure anti roll bar in the conventional sense (spring/torsion
bar linked to a suspension arm coupled through to an opposing wheel)
it doesn't affect the geometry in terms of toe in or toe out at a
particular amount of suspension movement from full bounce to full
droop at all.

Oh so that's what ARB means.
They can have an effect on some cars BTW.

In article
, Jim
K writes

Any lazy visual means to gauge front wheel alignment? light spray of
white primer across treads & see how it's worn after a couple of
miles??

2 planks[1] and a ruler, just like I said in my original reply. Shout if
it's not obvious.

[1] or 1 plank if stuck.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
fred wrote:
In article ,
MuddyMike

I assume ARB means Anti Roll Bar. If so then no, the ARB does nothing to
control tracking or any other part of the suspension geometry. With most
vehicle you can throw them away and the only difference will be
increased
body roll.

Very common for the anti-roll bar to control the front to back position
of the wheels in a simple MacPherson strut system and so the toeing.

I've not seen that, but its seldom that an ARB does not exert some force
on the suspension links in some direction or other. If any of the fore
and aft control bushes have any play, that will change the tracking.

Just about every Ford in the 70s, 80s and at least part of the 90s, they
may still do, I've moved on.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

fred wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
fred wrote:
In article ,
MuddyMike

I assume ARB means Anti Roll Bar. If so then no, the ARB does
nothing to
control tracking or any other part of the suspension geometry. With
most
vehicle you can throw them away and the only difference will be
increased
body roll.

Very common for the anti-roll bar to control the front to back position
of the wheels in a simple MacPherson strut system and so the toeing.

I've not seen that, but its seldom that an ARB does not exert some force
on the suspension links in some direction or other. If any of the fore
and aft control bushes have any play, that will change the tracking.

Just about every Ford in the 70s, 80s and at least part of the 90s, they
may still do, I've moved on.

You sure? I thought the Mc Phersons were attached to a wishbone.. or if
not there was simply a trailing arm to locate the lower arm and no ARB
at all.

In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
fred wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
fred wrote:

Very common for the anti-roll bar to control the front to back position
of the wheels in a simple MacPherson strut system and so the toeing.

I've not seen that, but its seldom that an ARB does not exert some force
on the suspension links in some direction or other. If any of the fore
and aft control bushes have any play, that will change the tracking.

Just about every Ford in the 70s, 80s and at least part of the 90s, they
may still do, I've moved on.

You sure? I thought the Mc Phersons were attached to a wishbone.. or if
not there was simply a trailing arm to locate the lower arm and no ARB
at all.

Looks like it was only the front engine RWD models, sierra, capri,
oldest escort:

http://www.aronline.co.uk/images/tonistory_05.jpg (sierra)

Fiesta, less old escort, mondeo and focus appear to have used wishbones
as you say.
--
fred
it's a ba-na-na . . . .

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Very common for the anti-roll bar to control the front to back
position of the wheels in a simple MacPherson strut system and so the
toeing.

I've not seen that, but its seldom that an ARB does not exert some force
on the suspension links in some direction or other. If any of the fore
and aft control bushes have any play, that will change the tracking.

The SD1 Rover has strut suspension with a single link, not wishbone, as
the bottom arm. That is only located fore and aft by the anti-roll bar.
Which is pretty meaty. Works pretty well and is cheap. ;-)

--
*Life is hard; then you nap

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

fred wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
fred wrote:
In article , The Natural Philosopher
writes
fred wrote:

Very common for the anti-roll bar to control the front to back
position
of the wheels in a simple MacPherson strut system and so the toeing.

I've not seen that, but its seldom that an ARB does not exert some
force
on the suspension links in some direction or other. If any of the fore
and aft control bushes have any play, that will change the tracking.

Just about every Ford in the 70s, 80s and at least part of the 90s, they
may still do, I've moved on.

You sure? I thought the Mc Phersons were attached to a wishbone.. or if
not there was simply a trailing arm to locate the lower arm and no ARB
at all.

Looks like it was only the front engine RWD models, sierra, capri,
oldest escort:

http://www.aronline.co.uk/images/tonistory_05.jpg (sierra)


Blimey. That is appalling..surely the inner suspension bush is not a
ball joint tho..it looks like there is a wishbone but not a very good
one with a single bearing..using the ARB to control it cannot be done
without introducing either serious compliance or serious noise and
vibration.

Picture I saw had angled trailing arms to control the lower arms coming
from in front of the hubs.




Fiesta, less old escort, mondeo and focus appear to have used wishbones
as you say.

Ford makes it to the 20th century, finally.

In article ,
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Blimey. That is appalling..surely the inner suspension bush is not a
ball joint tho..it looks like there is a wishbone but not a very good
one with a single bearing..using the ARB to control it cannot be done
without introducing either serious compliance or serious noise and
vibration.

Worked well enough before they started using rubber bands for tyres. But
was of course an economical option. Many preferred double wishbone.

Picture I saw had angled trailing arms to control the lower arms coming
from in front of the hubs.

There will still be compliance issues with that.

--
*When it rains, why don't sheep shrink? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mon, 23 Jan 2012 13:38:17 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
wrote:

Changing the material the bushes are made from - like say rubber to
polythene - is very likely to transmit more noise and vibration.

Polyurethane - increased noise is a common complaint, but Hobson's
Choice when the original bushes are no longer made.