We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

So we are looking at alternatives, we are already on an Economy 7
tariff for electricity, thus storage heaters would seem to be
something to explore. How good are they nowadays? I.e. are they
really able to not output much heat unless the fan runs? What other
pros and cons do they have? They're not particularly cheap (start at
around £450 as far as I can see) so one wants to be sure they really
do the job reasonably well. Also are there any particularly to be
recommended (or the opposite) and is there anywhere I can get some
sort of independent review and comparison?

--
Chris Green

On Nov 20, 11:18 am, wrote:
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

eh???????

go on do tell - which small stove with optional boiler, flue and
associated "hot" water pipework = 6000?

I can only presume that includes the fat ****-take Xmas bonus for the
bent HETAS engineer?

Did you get more than one quote? have you priced it up for DIYing it?

Jim K

wrote in message ...
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

snip

I don't think you are comparing like for like.
I would be interested to know where the £6,000 goes.
You should be able to get a small (4-5Kw) multi fuel stove for under £500.
Assuming you have a chimney then a liner should not cost more than £1,000.
If so, the whole shooting match including refurbishing a hearth should come
in around £2,000 - possibly less if you are lucky.

This would then be directly comparable with a storage heater or two.

You don't get the hot water side with a storage heater, obviously, so
presumably you might be thinking of an overnight immersion heater to go with
the storage heater(s)?
If so, you can still do this with the multi-fuel stove.

The main issue will be the running costs, coupled with flexibility.
If you have a reasonable budget supply of solid fuel then this could cost in
against the electrcity over the years.
However the low up front installation cost for the storage heater must be
tempting.

Cheers

Dave R

--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 03:38:57 -0800 (PST)
Jim K wrote:

On Nov 20, 11:18 am, wrote:
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other
end of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a
lot of our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a
fairly small installation (it does include some hot water with the
space heating, but that's all).

eh???????

go on do tell - which small stove with optional boiler, flue and
associated "hot" water pipework = 6000?

I can only presume that includes the fat ****-take Xmas bonus for the
bent HETAS engineer?

Did you get more than one quote? have you priced it up for DIYing it?

Jim K

I thought that the quote that I just had for installing a wood-burning
stove in a thatched house, for £2,000, was expensive. £6,000 sounds
outrageous, or it must be gold-plated.
-
Davey.

wrote in message ...
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

So we are looking at alternatives, we are already on an Economy 7
tariff for electricity, thus storage heaters would seem to be
something to explore. How good are they nowadays? I.e. are they
really able to not output much heat unless the fan runs? What other
pros and cons do they have? They're not particularly cheap (start at
around £450 as far as I can see) so one wants to be sure they really
do the job reasonably well. Also are there any particularly to be
recommended (or the opposite) and is there anywhere I can get some
sort of independent review and comparison?

The type without a fan start at 150 pounds.

I would try getting one SR and sighting it in a strategic central position
in the house where it provides some "base" heating and see how it affects
your other fuel use.

Yes, it will (probably) discharge most of its heat during the day and be
cold(ish) by the evening, but I think that you will find that the SR will
have kept the house warmer overall and the costs of heating the house in the
evening will be less than if you didn't have it.

Note that its installation needs to be "part P-ed". If you think about
where you might want to put a second and third SR if you like them and get
the electrician to run those circuits at the same time, this might not cost
you much more. Connecting an SR into an already supplied circuit does not
need to be certified and can be done as a DIY job later.

tim

wrote:
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

should not be more than 3000 at te very worst.

So we are looking at alternatives, we are already on an Economy 7
tariff for electricity, thus storage heaters would seem to be
something to explore. How good are they nowadays? I.e. are they
really able to not output much heat unless the fan runs? What other
pros and cons do they have? They're not particularly cheap (start at
around £450 as far as I can see) so one wants to be sure they really
do the job reasonably well. Also are there any particularly to be
recommended (or the opposite) and is there anywhere I can get some
sort of independent review and comparison?


they are as crap as they always were AFAIK.

Jim K wrote:
On Nov 20, 11:18 am, wrote:
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

eh???????

go on do tell - which small stove with optional boiler, flue and
associated "hot" water pipework = 6000?

It's for a Stovax Stockton 8HB plus, of course, the required flue etc.

We were a bit surprised by the price too! However as soon as you
start adding bits up it does start to become expensive. One could
possibly do a small, basic, space heat only, stove for £2000 or so
including flue but as soon as you start adding other requirements the
price builds up.


I can only presume that includes the fat ****-take Xmas bonus for the
bent HETAS engineer?

Possibly.


Did you get more than one quote? have you priced it up for DIYing it?

It's all very well getting more than one quote but there aren't *that*
many HETAS approved installers around here who are willing to quote.
The chap who installed our other wood-burner (several years ago) isn't
'wet' approved and neither are several of the others we approached.

I am definitely considering DIYing it but want to look into the
alternatives before going down that route. I have *loads* of other
DIY stuff to do so any more is a bit of a pain.

--
Chris Green

David WE Roberts wrote:

wrote in message ...
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

snip

I don't think you are comparing like for like.
I would be interested to know where the £6,000 goes.
You should be able to get a small (4-5Kw) multi fuel stove for under £500.
Assuming you have a chimney then a liner should not cost more than £1,000.
If so, the whole shooting match including refurbishing a hearth should come
in around £2,000 - possibly less if you are lucky.

It's a complete installation, no hearth at present, no chimney at
present, slightly awkward location that needs quite a long flue to get
far enough away from an upstairs dormer window. The stove they have
quoted for is a Stovex Stockton 8HB, 4.9kW to room, 8.2kW to hot water.


This would then be directly comparable with a storage heater or two.

I'd guess what we're being quoted for is equivalent to around four
storage heaters.


You don't get the hot water side with a storage heater, obviously, so
presumably you might be thinking of an overnight immersion heater to go with
the storage heater(s)?
If so, you can still do this with the multi-fuel stove.

The only reason for adding the hot water to the stove is that the
kitchen in particular is a *long* way from our existing hot water
cylinder and it takes a huge amount of waste water before it runs hot
in the sink. Thus an alternative would be an instant water heater of
some sort by the sink.


The main issue will be the running costs, coupled with flexibility.
If you have a reasonable budget supply of solid fuel then this could cost in
against the electrcity over the years.
However the low up front installation cost for the storage heater must be
tempting.

Exactly, which is why I'm asking the questions about how well storage
heaters actually work nowadays.

--
Chris Green

tim.... wrote:

wrote in message ...
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

So we are looking at alternatives, we are already on an Economy 7
tariff for electricity, thus storage heaters would seem to be
something to explore. How good are they nowadays? I.e. are they
really able to not output much heat unless the fan runs? What other
pros and cons do they have? They're not particularly cheap (start at
around £450 as far as I can see) so one wants to be sure they really
do the job reasonably well. Also are there any particularly to be
recommended (or the opposite) and is there anywhere I can get some
sort of independent review and comparison?

The type without a fan start at 150 pounds.

Can you point me at some examples please.

I would try getting one SR and sighting it in a strategic central position
in the house where it provides some "base" heating and see how it affects
your other fuel use.

Hmm, that's going to be quite difficult to quantify! :-)


Yes, it will (probably) discharge most of its heat during the day and be
cold(ish) by the evening, but I think that you will find that the SR will
have kept the house warmer overall and the costs of heating the house in the
evening will be less than if you didn't have it.

Note that its installation needs to be "part P-ed". If you think about
where you might want to put a second and third SR if you like them and get
the electrician to run those circuits at the same time, this might not cost
you much more. Connecting an SR into an already supplied circuit does not
need to be certified and can be done as a DIY job later.

Do they actually need new circuits? There won't be a separate meter
or anything like that. I suppose though that the load is such that
separate feeds might make sense.

--
Chris Green

On Nov 20, 2:33 pm, wrote:
David WE Roberts wrote:



wrote in ....
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

snip

I don't think you are comparing like for like.
I would be interested to know where the £6,000 goes.
You should be able to get a small (4-5Kw) multi fuel stove for under £500.
Assuming you have a chimney then a liner should not cost more than £1,000.
If so, the whole shooting match including refurbishing a hearth should come
in around £2,000 - possibly less if you are lucky.

It's a complete installation, no hearth at present, no chimney at
present, slightly awkward location that needs quite a long flue to get
far enough away from an upstairs dormer window. The stove they have
quoted for is a Stovex Stockton 8HB, 4.9kW to room, 8.2kW to hot water.

so not quite the "small solid fuel stove" you described initially
then?

The main issue will be the running costs, coupled with flexibility.
If you have a reasonable budget supply of solid fuel then this could cost in
against the electrcity over the years.

running a potential 13kw stove daily is going to need some wood supply
along with storage/seasoning space too.... never mind moving it all
inside and taking the ashes out/cleaning the mess up....

Jim K

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:28:39 +0000, wrote:

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the
other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot
of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly
small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space
heating,
but that's all).

eh???????

go on do tell - which small stove with optional boiler, flue and
associated "hot" water pipework = 6000?

We were a bit surprised by the price too! However as soon as you
start adding bits up it does start to become expensive.

One could possibly do a small, basic, space heat only, stove for £2000
or so including flue ...

That's all the other posters seem to be refering to. They seem to
have missed the ho****er and space heating by which I assume you mean
a few radiators rather than just heat from the stove heating the room
it is in.

6K does seem a lot but what does that include? Stove, hearth, flue,
thermal store, heat dump, plumbing for DHW, plumbing for radiators,
control system, making good, etc, probably several days labour. As
you say it all adds up.

Don't under estimate the cost of flue liner. The 10m length installed
here cost £200/m + VAT so an single item cost of £2,500...

As for electric storage heaters I hate the damn things but I've only
experienced the traditional type that are cold by late evening and
cook the house through the day.

If you can get ones that will hold most of their heat until you need
it in the evening and have that release vauguely automagic they might
be more acceptable. Ideally they need a room temperature sensor so
they can keep the daytime temp at no less than, say, 15C then switch
to 20C for the evening without user intervention.

--
Cheers
Dave.

Do not think of storage heaters unless you have very high levels of
insulation.
Roof insulated, at least cavity wall insulated and ideally 50mm
Celotex on internal walls, carpets with high tog underlay if draughty
underfloor voids, double glazing or decent perspex secondary glazing.

Storage heaters are best used for background heating, sized correctly
with adequate insulation they do not go cold at night - indeed you
have to remember to turn output to max to get the stored heat out at
6pm or so. They are useful as a backup heating in a hallway, say 1-2x
18kWhr or 24kWhr charge versions. They are also fit-n-forget for 25yrs
pretty much.

The BEST storage heaters are the proper commercial fan storage type,
obvious by their bottom fan outlet (not the fan combi stuff). Elnur do
a 2kW 3kW 4kW and allegedly 5kW one for £477-800, with Stiebel Eltron,
Dimplex VFMi and Creda TSF Turbo doing 3.4-6.9kW at £700-1300. They
leak next to nothing overnight (they hold heat 48hrs), you stick a
thermostat on a wall and the fan pumps out heat when you want it on
demand quite literally. There are many more subtle variants in
Germany, probably because they expect "smart metering" to recharge
when the wind blows... as it were :-)

The electronic Dimplex Duoheat combine a low wattage heater on the
front panel (280-430W) with storage heater inside. This is tackling
the "cold by evening and want a boost in the evening without a pig
ugly combi fan storage heater". They are quite attractive compared to
conventional units (which lack any aesthetic engineering), but are
smaller capacity for their size than the conventional storage-heater
only type AND electronics have a finite life. It adds a layer of
vulnerability to an otherwise "dumb 160kg reliable pile of cast iron
blocks". They are basically a panel heater & storage heater in one.

On 20/11/2011 14:33, wrote:

The only reason for adding the hot water to the stove is that the
kitchen in particular is a *long* way from our existing hot water
cylinder and it takes a huge amount of waste water before it runs hot
in the sink. Thus an alternative would be an instant water heater of
some sort by the sink.

Not convinced your plan is great idea. Adding the boiler to the stove
massively increases the complexity, and it won't burn as well.

If you didn't already have a hot water supply, yes, could be worth it,
but you say you've already got one.

On Nov 20, 3:20 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:28:39 +0000, wrote:
We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the
other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot
of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly
small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space
heating,
but that's all).

eh???????

go on do tell - which small stove with optional boiler, flue and
associated "hot" water pipework = 6000?

We were a bit surprised by the price too! However as soon as you
start adding bits up it does start to become expensive.

One could possibly do a small, basic, space heat only, stove for £2000
or so including flue ...

That's all the other posters seem to be refering to. They seem to
have missed the ho****er and space heating by which I assume you mean
a few radiators

which, rather obviously, you don't get from a "small stove"......

Jim K

On Nov 20, 11:18*am, wrote:
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

So we are looking at alternatives, we are already on an Economy 7
tariff for electricity, thus storage heaters would seem to be
something to explore. *How good are they nowadays? *I.e. are they
really able to not output much heat unless the fan runs? *What other
pros and cons do they have? *They're not particularly cheap (start at
around £450 as far as I can see) so one wants to be sure they really
do the job reasonably well. *Also are there any particularly to be
recommended (or the opposite) and is there anywhere I can get some
sort of independent review and comparison?

--
Chris Green


Or go for massive insulation and buy none of them. I have massive
insulation. The TV heats my house.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ara-chl...7627608971673/

On 20/11/2011 11:18, wrote:

We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

So we are looking at alternatives, we are already on an Economy 7
tariff for electricity, thus storage heaters would seem to be
something to explore. How good are they nowadays? I.e. are they

Unless you are talking about the huge ducted fan assisted beasts that
run off 3 phase, then as crap as ever IME.

really able to not output much heat unless the fan runs? What other
pros and cons do they have? They're not particularly cheap (start at
around £450 as far as I can see) so one wants to be sure they really
do the job reasonably well. Also are there any particularly to be
recommended (or the opposite) and is there anywhere I can get some
sort of independent review and comparison?

Would a heat bank be a better "storage heater" for your application?
Charge on E7 electric, but then use the heat when you want via the
existing wet CH system?

(to improve further, perhaps the heating could be done via heatpump
rather than directly from the E7)

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Nov 20, 3:20 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:28:39 +0000, wrote:
We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the
other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot
of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly
small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space
heating,
but that's all).

eh???????

go on do tell - which small stove with optional boiler, flue and
associated "hot" water pipework = 6000?

We were a bit surprised by the price too! However as soon as you
start adding bits up it does start to become expensive.

One could possibly do a small, basic, space heat only, stove for £2000
or so including flue ...

That's all the other posters seem to be refering to. They seem to
have missed the ho****er and space heating by which I assume you mean
a few radiators rather than just heat from the stove heating the room
it is in.

6K does seem a lot but what does that include? Stove, hearth, flue,
thermal store, heat dump, plumbing for DHW, plumbing for radiators,
control system, making good, etc, probably several days labour. As
you say it all adds up.

Don't under estimate the cost of flue liner. The 10m length installed
here cost £200/m + VAT so an single item cost of £2,500...

just re read that.... what's the spec of this then?

stainless? twin wall? 27/28mm insulation between walls? Inner liner
316LStainless steel
Outer case 304 stainless steel? Fully CE approved, complies with EN
1856-1? T600?

Jim K

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:30:12 -0800 (PST), Jim K wrote:

Don't under estimate the cost of flue liner. The 10m length
installed
here cost £200/m + VAT so an single item cost of
£2,500...

just re read that.... what's the spec of this then?

http://www.mi-flues.com/mi_shop_inve...6Z-180-1&diame
ter=175mm%20(7%20inch)&id=371&keywords=QUATTRO%20F lue%20Liner

http://tinyurl.com/c2x9fm4

7" 904L stainless in and out single strip construction, only about
1/4" thick but the makers claim it doesn't *need* the chimney back
filling with insulation.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:12:56 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

Would a heat bank be a better "storage heater" for your application?
Charge on E7 electric, but then use the heat when you want via the
existing wet CH system?

(to improve further, perhaps the heating could be done via heatpump
rather than directly from the E7)

That is certainly worth looking at. You do need a large store for it
to be viable though, think 1000 to 1500l.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:33:47 +0000, wrote:

It's a complete installation, no hearth at present, no chimney at
present, slightly awkward location that needs quite a long flue to get
far enough away from an upstairs dormer window.

So quite a bit of building work of one form or another. £6k is
looking far more reasonable...

The stove they have quoted for is a Stovex

Stovax?

Stockton 8HB, 4.9kW to room, 8.2kW to hot water.

I hope you have a *big* room with as near as damn it 5kW of heat
being thumped into it...

You might be better off looking at the Stockton 8 with a clip in
boiler. 3.6 to the room but only 4.4 to water.

Our Stockton 11, with clip in boiler, is supposed to be 3kW to room
and
7 to water. 3kW could well be too much for the 3.2 x 4.4 x 2.4m
(33.75cu m) room it is in. Got to admit to not being convinced by
these figures how come the 8HB has a total heat output of 13kW but
the 8 only 8kW total? I guess the 8HB has a complete "wrap aound"
boiler which can make fireing it tricker.

Remember if an integral boiler fails it's new stove time if a
clip in fails it's "just" a new boiler or you can take it out, refit
the baffles that you take out to fit the boiler, block the pipe holes
and still use it as a stove.

The only reason for adding the hot water to the stove is that the
kitchen in particular is a *long* way from our existing hot water
cylinder and it takes a huge amount of waste water ...

Are you on a water meter?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Nov 20, 8:01 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:30:12 -0800 (PST), Jim K wrote:
Don't under estimate the cost of flue liner. The 10m length
installed
here cost £200/m + VAT so an single item cost of
£2,500...

just re read that.... what's the spec of this then?

http://www.mi-flues.com/mi_shop_inve...6Z-180-1&diame
ter=175mm%20(7%20inch)&id=371&keywords=QUATTRO%20F lue%20Liner

http://tinyurl.com/c2x9fm4

7" 904L stainless in and out single strip construction, only about
1/4" thick but the makers claim it doesn't *need* the chimney back
filling with insulation.

Jesus H Christ it's only a flue liner???!!! who specced that?

ISTR none of them "have to be" backfilled with insulation, it's sposed
to help by limiting condensation and "furring up" higher up....

Any proper reason to use that rather than a more usual £60 odd a metre
7" 904 grade liner?

Jim K

On Sunday, November 20, 2011 6:38:49 PM UTC, harry wrote:
On Nov 20, 11:18*am, wrote:
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

So we are looking at alternatives, we are already on an Economy 7
tariff for electricity, thus storage heaters would seem to be
something to explore. *How good are they nowadays? *I.e. are they
really able to not output much heat unless the fan runs? *What other
pros and cons do they have? *They're not particularly cheap (start at
around £450 as far as I can see) so one wants to be sure they really
do the job reasonably well. *Also are there any particularly to be
recommended (or the opposite) and is there anywhere I can get some
sort of independent review and comparison?

--
Chris Green


Or go for massive insulation and buy none of them. I have massive
insulation. The TV heats my house.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/ara-chl...7627608971673/

Harry, could you describe types and quantities of insulation in your house? How much insulation is "massive". You could only do this in a new build I guess. If I was doing a new build, I would definitely go down that route.
Also, assuming the photo is your house, its nice to see famous solar panels..
Simon.

On 20/11/2011 19:12, John Rumm wrote:

Unless you are talking about the huge ducted fan assisted beasts that
run off 3 phase, then as crap as ever IME.

There are some better-insulated domestic storage heaters around now,
allowing improved control of core heat release under time switch and
thermostat control.

For example:
http://www.dimplex.co.uk/products/do...cification.htm

In the end though, storage heaters are well-suited to well-insulated
high thermal mass buildings, since these have a long thermal time
constant. They are a poor match when the building has a short thermal
time constant (poor insulation, lightweight construction).

--
Andy

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.co.uk...
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:30:12 -0800 (PST), Jim K wrote:

Don't under estimate the cost of flue liner. The 10m length
installed
here cost £200/m + VAT so an single item cost of
£2,500...

just re read that.... what's the spec of this then?

http://www.mi-flues.com/mi_shop_inve...6Z-180-1&diame
ter=175mm%20(7%20inch)&id=371&keywords=QUATTRO%20F lue%20Liner

http://tinyurl.com/c2x9fm4

7" 904L stainless in and out single strip construction, only about
1/4" thick but the makers claim it doesn't *need* the chimney back
filling with insulation.

Rubbish. Always always always backfill . It's a HETAS prerequistite anyhow.

tim.

On Nov 20, 11:35*pm, Andy Wade wrote:
On 20/11/2011 19:12, John Rumm wrote:

Unless you are talking about the huge ducted fan assisted beasts that
run off 3 phase, then as crap as ever IME.

There are some better-insulated domestic storage heaters around now,
allowing improved control of core heat release under time switch and
thermostat control.

For example:http://www.dimplex.co.uk/products/do...alled_heating/...

Ouch, surprising how much a bit bigger steel & silica costs :-)

Dimplex VFM24i (3.4kWhr) are £741 inc VAT at discountelectrical.
Can have a remote timer or thermostat & have peak-rate boost element.

Elnur 2kW are £477 inc VAT on Ebay, Online elsewhere.
Require a remote timer or thermostat, do not have peak-rate boost
element.
The Elnur usually have free delivery, so can avoid a £30-40 pallet
cost.

The latter are a good price point, although 2kW is not very big at
all. With the "no cook overnight" you can risk oversizing, it just
gives more of a reserve for a 2010-Dec. Physically they are 24cm deep,
not small things.

wrote in message news
tim.... wrote:

wrote in message
...
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

So we are looking at alternatives, we are already on an Economy 7
tariff for electricity, thus storage heaters would seem to be
something to explore. How good are they nowadays? I.e. are they
really able to not output much heat unless the fan runs? What other
pros and cons do they have? They're not particularly cheap (start at
around £450 as far as I can see) so one wants to be sure they really
do the job reasonably well. Also are there any particularly to be
recommended (or the opposite) and is there anywhere I can get some
sort of independent review and comparison?

The type without a fan start at 150 pounds.

Can you point me at some examples please.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ers/index.html

(Note prices are ex VAT)


I would try getting one SR and sighting it in a strategic central
position
in the house where it provides some "base" heating and see how it affects
your other fuel use.

Hmm, that's going to be quite difficult to quantify! :-)

But something that you will want to do whatever you decide :-)

Yes, it will (probably) discharge most of its heat during the day and be
cold(ish) by the evening, but I think that you will find that the SR will
have kept the house warmer overall and the costs of heating the house in
the
evening will be less than if you didn't have it.

Note that its installation needs to be "part P-ed". If you think about
where you might want to put a second and third SR if you like them and
get
the electrician to run those circuits at the same time, this might not
cost
you much more. Connecting an SR into an already supplied circuit does
not
need to be certified and can be done as a DIY job later.

Do they actually need new circuits?

Yes. They need to be on individually "fused" circuits, usually from a
separate CU to the "day" circuits

There won't be a separate meter
or anything like that. I suppose though that the load is such that
separate feeds might make sense.

--
Chris Green

Dave Liquorice wrote:
[snip, thanks for useful comments]

The only reason for adding the hot water to the stove is that the
kitchen in particular is a *long* way from our existing hot water
cylinder and it takes a huge amount of waste water ...

Are you on a water meter?

Yes, but in addition think about all that wasted heated water.

It seems to be about a sink full of water before it runs hot, that's
quite a lot of wasted heat as much of it will be lost to places where
we don't need the heat (under floorboards etc.).

For some reason the sink in the kitchen takes *much* longer than
anywhere else in the house for the water to run hot. It is a fair way
from the hot water cylinder and I guess the pipes must just take the
long way round to get there!

--
Chris Green

tim.... wrote:
The type without a fan start at 150 pounds.

Can you point me at some examples please.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ers/index.html

(Note prices are ex VAT)

Thanks, I use TLC quite a lot for wiring accessories etc., I hadn't
thought of looking there for heaters and such.

--
Chris Green

On Nov 21, 6:29 pm, wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:

[snip, thanks for useful comments]

The only reason for adding the hot water to the stove is that the
kitchen in particular is a *long* way from our existing hot water
cylinder and it takes a huge amount of waste water ...

Are you on a water meter?

Yes, but in addition think about all that wasted heated water.

It seems to be about a sink full of water before it runs hot, that's
quite a lot of wasted heat as much of it will be lost to places where
we don't need the heat (under floorboards etc.).

could change it to microbore? and/or insulate the existing copper or
insulate a new run of plastic Hep20 ??

Jim K

John Rumm wrote:
On 20/11/2011 11:18, wrote:

We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

So we are looking at alternatives, we are already on an Economy 7
tariff for electricity, thus storage heaters would seem to be
something to explore. How good are they nowadays? I.e. are they

Unless you are talking about the huge ducted fan assisted beasts that
run off 3 phase, then as crap as ever IME.

really able to not output much heat unless the fan runs? What other
pros and cons do they have? They're not particularly cheap (start at
around £450 as far as I can see) so one wants to be sure they really
do the job reasonably well. Also are there any particularly to be
recommended (or the opposite) and is there anywhere I can get some
sort of independent review and comparison?

Would a heat bank be a better "storage heater" for your application?
Charge on E7 electric, but then use the heat when you want via the
existing wet CH system?

Possibly, I've not really investigated that route, I'll start looking
into it.

(to improve further, perhaps the heating could be done via heatpump
rather than directly from the E7)

That starts getting into big money though.

--
Chris Green

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 19:12:56 +0000, John Rumm wrote:

Would a heat bank be a better "storage heater" for your application?
Charge on E7 electric, but then use the heat when you want via the
existing wet CH system?

(to improve further, perhaps the heating could be done via heatpump
rather than directly from the E7)

That is certainly worth looking at. You do need a large store for it
to be viable though, think 1000 to 1500l.

That's one thing we do have - *lots* of space.

--
Chris Green

On Nov 21, 6:37*pm, wrote:
That's one thing we do have - *lots* of space.

If you have the space and a wet system, you can always top-up that
thermal store from multiple sources - wood burner boiler, chimney back
boiler, electric air source heat pump, vacuum solar array, economy 7.

Wet electric central heating systems tend to have a limited water
storage capacity because they are aimed at well insulated small flats.
They use Economy 10 to top-up the thermal store & then costly on-peak
when necessary, but few suppliers offer Economy 10 so it is costly
with little price competition. Some loony builders have been known to
skip on even Economy 7 and wire to peak rate.

Since you have the space a very large thermal store with Economy 7
could be used, but the key question is how much do you need - poor
insulation could require a silo of hot water cylinders and run out of
electricity supply capacity. It then becomes a case of design for -5oC
on Economy 7 and use peak-rate top-up for the periods when colder.
House insulation is key to any electric heating, do it sufficiently
and panel heaters on peak rate can do it.

wrote in message ...
David WE Roberts wrote:

wrote in message
...
We live out in the sticks and our central heating (which we rarely
turn on nowadays) runs on locally stored gas which is becoming
steadily more expensive.

We have a large multi-fuel stove which we keep alight through the
coldest weather and we have a good supply of wood for that.

We *were* thinking of adding a small solid fuel stove at the other end
of the house in the breakfast room where we do spend quite a lot of
our time but the costs are just silly - like £6000 for a fairly small
installation (it does include some hot water with the space heating,
but that's all).

snip

I don't think you are comparing like for like.
I would be interested to know where the £6,000 goes.
You should be able to get a small (4-5Kw) multi fuel stove for under
£500.
Assuming you have a chimney then a liner should not cost more than
£1,000.
If so, the whole shooting match including refurbishing a hearth should
come
in around £2,000 - possibly less if you are lucky.

It's a complete installation, no hearth at present, no chimney at
present, slightly awkward location that needs quite a long flue to get
far enough away from an upstairs dormer window. The stove they have
quoted for is a Stovex Stockton 8HB, 4.9kW to room, 8.2kW to hot water.


This would then be directly comparable with a storage heater or two.

I'd guess what we're being quoted for is equivalent to around four
storage heaters.


You don't get the hot water side with a storage heater, obviously, so
presumably you might be thinking of an overnight immersion heater to go
with
the storage heater(s)?
If so, you can still do this with the multi-fuel stove.

The only reason for adding the hot water to the stove is that the
kitchen in particular is a *long* way from our existing hot water
cylinder and it takes a huge amount of waste water before it runs hot
in the sink. Thus an alternative would be an instant water heater of
some sort by the sink.


The main issue will be the running costs, coupled with flexibility.
If you have a reasonable budget supply of solid fuel then this could cost
in
against the electrcity over the years.
However the low up front installation cost for the storage heater must be
tempting.

Exactly, which is why I'm asking the questions about how well storage
heaters actually work nowadays.


How about having a water cylinder near your sink, on Economy 7 heating over
night?
Then doing the £2k stove only option for the heating?
The cylinder could meet your hot water needs for the day, with the option to
top up on normal leccy if you use a lot.
Obviously major insulation around the cylinder.

Possibly even have it refilled using the hot/warm/cool feed from your
existing cylinder instead of cold mains?
Hmmmm....take your existing hot water feed (insulated up to the eyeballs)
and feed it into the bottom of the new hot water cylinder which is heated by
Economy 7?
Heat loss is therefore only the portion of cool water in the pipe run from
your existing cylinder to the new one and is absorbed within the hot water
in your new cylinder.
You always have hot water to the tap..
Sort of secondary cylinder and local heat store to avoid the cold rush of
water.
Minimal extra heat requirements.

I presume it is not feasible to heat a second cylinder from your existing
hot water system.

Alternatively, just replace the pipework to the breakfast room sink with
very heavily insulated pipework - then you take one hit to run out the cold
but after that have reasonably hot water on tap (I assume you aren't just
trying to avoid the initial run to get hot water). This is less attractive
if you only use the sink a few times a day an so always have to run the cold
through.

Cheers

Dave R
--
No plan survives contact with the enemy.
[Not even bunny]

Helmuth von Moltke the Elder

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