Had a crash on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.

Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

TIA

"Simon Cee" wrote in message
...
Had a crash on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.

Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

TIA

If you were an insurance company assessor would you accept the recordings?

Simon Cee wrote:
Had a crash on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.

Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

http://www.roadhawk.co.uk/?gclid=CNv...FYYmtAodUEM90A

I don't know how much use it would be, we have four external and a
couple of internal cameras on our buses, and it's amazing how often the
details needed by the police and insurance company are missed by all of
them.

Maplin used to sell one that held the last 90 minutes of video on an SD
card, stopping recording when it was turned off. It's probably
stillavailable, but not from Maplin.


--
Tciao for Now!

John.

"Mr Pounder" wrote in message
...

"Simon Cee" wrote in message
...
Had a crash on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.

Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

TIA

If you were an insurance company assessor would you accept the recordings?

Why not?

It's not the sort of thing that somebody can doctor and it can't be a set up
because you are using it to show the "normally assumed guilty party" is
innocent

tim

In message , John Williamson
writes
Simon Cee wrote:
Had a crash on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.
Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

http://www.roadhawk.co.uk/?gclid=CNv...FYYmtAodUEM90A

I don't know how much use it would be, we have four external and a
couple of internal cameras on our buses, and it's amazing how often the
details needed by the police and insurance company are missed by all of
them.

Maplin used to sell one that held the last 90 minutes of video on an SD
card, stopping recording when it was turned off. It's probably
stillavailable, but not from Maplin.

Of course, for catching accidents, you don't really need hours of
recording time. All you will need is continuous recording, with storage
medium being constantly overwritten, and keeping only the last few
seconds of the journey (well, a few minutes would be nice). I'm sure
such devices exist.
--
Ian

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , John Williamson
writes
Simon Cee wrote:
Had a crash on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.
Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

http://www.roadhawk.co.uk/?gclid=CNv...FYYmtAodUEM90A

I don't know how much use it would be, we have four external and a couple
of internal cameras on our buses, and it's amazing how often the details
needed by the police and insurance company are missed by all of them.

Maplin used to sell one that held the last 90 minutes of video on an SD
card, stopping recording when it was turned off. It's probably
stillavailable, but not from Maplin.

Of course, for catching accidents, you don't really need hours of
recording time. All you will need is continuous recording, with storage
medium being constantly overwritten, and keeping only the last few seconds
of the journey (well, a few minutes would be nice). I'm sure such devices
exist.

They're certainly available for the haulage industry

I suspect that the problem is in fitting them in a way that won't get nicked

tim

On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 20:25:11 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In message , John Williamson
writes
Simon Cee wrote:

Maplin used to sell one that held the last 90 minutes of video on an SD
card, stopping recording when it was turned off. It's probably
stillavailable, but not from Maplin.

Of course, for catching accidents, you don't really need hours of
recording time. All you will need is continuous recording, with storage
medium being constantly overwritten,

John/Ian/all,

Thanks for the replies. Something that just recorded the last 90
minutes of journey time would sound ideal if anyone knows of something
appropriate. I'm thinking about something that might simply clip over
the rear view mirror to record the view ahead, and powered by
rechargeable batteries. Am I hoping for too much?

One question though, in the accident on Monday we were both (passenger
and driver) taken by ambulance to hospital as a precaution. Our
vehicle was recovered by police and put in a compound. So any camera
that overwrote recordings 90 minutes ago would simply show our car
sitting in a deserted car pound unless we had the presence of mind and
were physically capable of stopping the recording. Something to bear
in mind?

I'm thinking that these days battery life is limiting factor, not
memory capacity. So perhaps a simple 4 -hour (say) memory capacity
would be better. Any advice gratefully received. Thank you.

"Ian Jackson" wrote in message
...
In message , John Williamson
writes
Simon Cee wrote:
Had a crash on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.
Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

http://www.roadhawk.co.uk/?gclid=CNv...FYYmtAodUEM90A

I don't know how much use it would be, we have four external and a couple
of internal cameras on our buses, and it's amazing how often the details
needed by the police and insurance company are missed by all of them.

Maplin used to sell one that held the last 90 minutes of video on an SD
card, stopping recording when it was turned off. It's probably
stillavailable, but not from Maplin.

Of course, for catching accidents, you don't really need hours of
recording time. All you will need is continuous recording, with storage
medium being constantly overwritten, and keeping only the last few seconds
of the journey (well, a few minutes would be nice). I'm sure such devices
exist.

You can get apps for smart phones that do that and they record gps position,
speed, etc. android or apple and possibly others.

In message , Simon Cee
writes



One question though, in the accident on Monday we were both (passenger
and driver) taken by ambulance to hospital as a precaution. Our
vehicle was recovered by police and put in a compound. So any camera
that overwrote recordings 90 minutes ago would simply show our car
sitting in a deserted car pound unless we had the presence of mind and
were physically capable of stopping the recording. Something to bear
in mind?

I'm thinking that these days battery life is limiting factor, not
memory capacity. So perhaps a simple 4 -hour (say) memory capacity
would be better. Any advice gratefully received. Thank you.

I would have thought that such devices would only work when the vehicle
ignition was turned on (possibly continuing for a few minutes after it
has been turned off). If so - problem solved.
--
Ian

Ian Jackson wrote:
In message , Simon Cee
writes



One question though, in the accident on Monday we were both (passenger
and driver) taken by ambulance to hospital as a precaution. Our
vehicle was recovered by police and put in a compound. So any camera
that overwrote recordings 90 minutes ago would simply show our car
sitting in a deserted car pound unless we had the presence of mind and
were physically capable of stopping the recording. Something to bear
in mind?

I'm thinking that these days battery life is limiting factor, not
memory capacity. So perhaps a simple 4 -hour (say) memory capacity
would be better. Any advice gratefully received. Thank you.

I would have thought that such devices would only work when the vehicle
ignition was turned on (possibly continuing for a few minutes after it
has been turned off). If so - problem solved.

On checking, the current version is out of stock at the moment, but can
be told to do what you want.:-

http://www.maplin.co.uk/novus-blackv...-camera-517575

Continuously running, under manual control or triggered by G forces.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

On Sep 2, 7:19*pm, Simon Cee wrote:
Had a crash *on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses *so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.

Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in

I believe Roadhawk is the one of the more popular ones in the haulage
industry.
http://www.roadhawk.co.uk/

Simon Cee wrote:

Had a crash on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.

Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

TIA

I have one of these
http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/prod...ucts_id=110355
or
http://tinyurl.com/62nh56y
it records in 5min clips with a two sec pause between each clip
and over-writes when the card is full.
quality is ok ish for the price.

-

On Sep 2, 8:56*pm, Simon Cee wrote:

So any camera
that overwrote recordings 90 minutes ago would simply show our car
sitting in a deserted car pound

They're designed for this - they have an accelerometer that stops
recording shortly after an impact.

Try China, via eBay, DealExtreme or ChinaVision. Lot's of them out
there now.

On Sep 2, 7:19*pm, Simon Cee wrote:
Had a crash *on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses *so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.

Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

TIA

Insurance companies see this sort of thing every day with identical
accidents. I wouldn't worry. They'll understand perfectly well.

I don't know about that but I am aware that most modern cars seem to have
the equiv of a black box flight recorder that can give all the parameters
of the vehicle when it crashed, including air bags etc.

Brian

--
Brian Gaff -
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!
"Simon Cee" wrote in message
...
Had a crash on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.

Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

TIA

For peace of mind I agree with the idea and it would save a lot of issues if
there was a 50-50 liability type situation
eBay item 350489131284 for £45 seems a bargain, and it's in England ready to
ship.

I certainly would welcome this idea if, like in many countries, these
devices are fitted as part of insurance company liability and premium
reduction schemes





Had a crash on Monday, thankfully a fairly minor one. Driver pulled
out of side road without looking, and I have a few witnesses so I'm
hoping the claim process should be so straightforward.

Trying to describe events to the insurance company is a bit of a
nightmare however, so I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance. Just in
case similar happens again it would make the whole process a lot more
straightforward plus we seem to be "blessed" with a loss of fraudulent
cash for crash scams around here recently, so that would help protect
against these cowboys.

TIA

Mark wrote:

http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/prod...ucts_id=110355
or
http://tinyurl.com/62nh56y
it records in 5min clips with a two sec pause between each clip
and over-writes when the card is full.
quality is ok ish for the price.

-

How long does the battery last?
Could it be used unattended for a day to watch for fly tippers?

AJH

andrew wrote:

Mark wrote:


http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/prod...ucts_id=110355
or
http://tinyurl.com/62nh56y
it records in 5min clips with a two sec pause between each clip
and over-writes when the card is full.
quality is ok ish for the price.

-

How long does the battery last?
Could it be used unattended for a day to watch for fly tippers?

AJH

No you would need one that does motion detection, and probably IR night
vision.


-

Mark wrote:

andrew wrote:

Could it be used unattended for a day to watch for fly tippers?

No you would need one that does motion detection, and probably IR night
vision.

Search for "trail camera" though a lot of them are stills rather than video.

Andy Burns wrote:

Mark wrote:

andrew wrote:

Could it be used unattended for a day to watch for fly tippers?

No you would need one that does motion detection, and probably IR night
vision.

Search for "trail camera" though a lot of them are stills rather than
video.

I already use the bushman but it takes about a second to react.

AJH

andrew wrote:

Andy Burns wrote:

Mark wrote:

andrew wrote:

Could it be used unattended for a day to watch for fly tippers?

No you would need one that does motion detection, and probably IR night
vision.

Search for "trail camera" though a lot of them are stills rather than
video.

I already use the bushman but it takes about a second to react.

AJH

Bloody quick fly tippers !
The €œHD Vehicle video cam kit€� link to ebay that somebody gave earlier at
£51 is also available from 7dayshop for £30, which does do motion detection,
but i have no idea how good it is, or how long the battery would last in MD
mode.


-

On Fri, 02 Sep 2011 20:56:50 +0100, Simon Cee wrote:

Thanks for the replies. Something that just recorded the last 90
minutes of journey time would sound ideal if anyone knows of something
appropriate. I'm thinking about something that might simply clip over
the rear view mirror to record the view ahead, and powered by
rechargeable batteries. Am I hoping for too much?

7dayshop.com have them as do ebay - look for 'helmet cams'.

On 02/09/2011 20:56, Simon Cee wrote:
On Fri, 2 Sep 2011 20:25:11 +0100, Ian Jackson
wrote:

In , John Williamson
writes
Simon Cee wrote:

Maplin used to sell one that held the last 90 minutes of video on an SD
card, stopping recording when it was turned off. It's probably
stillavailable, but not from Maplin.

Of course, for catching accidents, you don't really need hours of
recording time. All you will need is continuous recording, with storage
medium being constantly overwritten,

John/Ian/all,

Thanks for the replies. Something that just recorded the last 90
minutes of journey time would sound ideal if anyone knows of something
appropriate. I'm thinking about something that might simply clip over
the rear view mirror to record the view ahead, and powered by
rechargeable batteries. Am I hoping for too much?

One question though, in the accident on Monday we were both (passenger
and driver) taken by ambulance to hospital as a precaution. Our
vehicle was recovered by police and put in a compound. So any camera
that overwrote recordings 90 minutes ago would simply show our car
sitting in a deserted car pound unless we had the presence of mind and
were physically capable of stopping the recording. Something to bear
in mind?

I'm thinking that these days battery life is limiting factor, not
memory capacity. So perhaps a simple 4 -hour (say) memory capacity
would be better. Any advice gratefully received. Thank you.

Go and read what the Roadhawk does from the link you were given a few
posts ago. It does exactly what you want and more, and if it senses
deceleration (or the driver presses a button) automatically stores the
last few minutes which *isn't* overwritten.
It has a GPS sensor so knows the speeds involved etc etc.

I'm considering one myself also...

Simon Cee wrote:

I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?]. Ideally battery-powered, and with a decent endurance.

Have a look he

http://www.flyonthewall.uk.com/

I've used them for covert cameras and in-vehicle cameras in the past.
They have good specification units.

I'd look at something like this that can record up to 32 hours of
640x480 video.

http://www.flyonthewall.uk.com/infra...ord-p-333.html

Don't buy anything with less than 640x480 video, the images are
next to useless. QVGA (320x240) isn't up to the job at all and the
cameras are a waste of money.

On Sep 3, 10:58 pm, Mark wrote:
andrew wrote:
Mark wrote:

http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/prod...777_1&products...

or
http://tinyurl.com/62nh56y
it records in 5min clips with a two sec pause between each clip
and over-writes when the card is full.
quality is ok ish for the price.

-

How long does the battery last?
Could it be used unattended for a day to watch for fly tippers?

AJH

No you would need one that does motion detection, and probably IR night
vision.

-

tho any useable IR will be a) power hungry and b) visible to anyone
looking....

Jim K

Mark wrote:
[snip]

Bloody quick fly tippers !
The €œHD Vehicle video cam kit€� link to ebay that somebody gave earlier at
£51 is also available from 7dayshop for £30, which does do motion detection,
but i have no idea how good it is, or how long the battery would last in MD
mode.

FWIW I use three trail cams to keep an eye on my property. The are "Little
Acorn" 8MP cameras with infra-red flash. They can also record 640x480
video. The flash is invisible, some trail cams show a red glow.

The cameras record to SDHC cards and are happy with 16GB cards (largest
that I have tried). They take 4x AA batteries internally but they also have
an external pack that is used as the wall/post mount that accepts 4x
AABatteries giving 2-4 months operation on a set of alkaline batteries. So
far all they have caught are the wild boar on the land, which TBH is a
relief.

Not cheap at £100 each but I found cheap cams to have multiple faults such
as poor PIRs, visible flash, no video capability and resolution so poor
that they could not be used as evidence.

Good trail cams have three PIRs to detect approaches from the side and
delay the shutter until the object is in the field of vision of the camera.
Single PIR cameras are great for taking photos of something just leaving
the scene (lots of pictures of tails or the backs of fly tippers).

Jim K wrote:


tho any useable IR will be a) power hungry and b) visible to anyone
looking....

In fact the 8 AA cells in the Bushnell ( NOT bushman as I posted earlier)
last for thousands of photos.

Yes they do glow and I would be interested in the little acorn Steve
mentioned to reduce this.

I have had to have a steel cage made and chain the camera to a tree.
Currently it takes about 2k images a fortnight on a little used track. The
problem is a car driving past will often be out of field of view before the
camera triggers but its good for tractors, pedestrians, foxes, roe and
fallow deer.

AJH

andrew wrote:

Yes they do glow and I would be interested in the little acorn Steve
mentioned to reduce this.

There's a version of LTL 5210A with 940nm LEDs, various reports say they
glow much less, but can be seen from 4' to 10' away, the flash range is
reduced compared to normal iR LEDs

andrew wrote:

Yes they do glow and I would be interested in the little acorn Steve
mentioned to reduce this.

This is the model I bought - hmm 12Mp, not 8Mp. I think I must have
chosen the lower setting to get more pictures on the SD card.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/250866676414

I see that the seller only has three on offer at the moment, but I did
find several other sellers when I bought earlier in the year. Including
KGB cameras:

http://www.kgbcameras.co.uk/cameras/Wildlife-camera.htm


There's a copy of the manual he

http://kgbcameras.co.uk/cameras/User...mera%20v21.pdf

And some sample photos he

http://www.huntingnet.com/forum/trai...corn-pics.html

Steve Firth wrote:

This is the model I bought - hmm 12Mp, not 8Mp. I think I must have
chosen the lower setting to get more pictures on the SD card.

It seems the 12MP is interpolated from a 5MP sensor, one review site
seemed to have spent several months going through various pre-production
models and firmware revisions ... have you had the issue of water
gathering in the rear battery pack?

"Simon Cee" wrote in message
...

I was wondering if there are any cheap and easy
to use cameras that can record an entire days travelling [up to
4hrs?].

I use the Sentient one that Maplin used to sell.
Ebay item number 380366422560

Only this evening I had a near miss when some numpty decided
to turn left from lane three at the entrance to a roundabout.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/12199275@N03/6114301944/

No longer available from Maplin but it has the obvious forward facing
camera as well an internal view of the car. Has GPS and logs speed etc.

Andy Burns wrote:
Steve Firth wrote:

This is the model I bought - hmm 12Mp, not 8Mp. I think I must have
chosen the lower setting to get more pictures on the SD card.

It seems the 12MP is interpolated from a 5MP sensor, one review site
seemed to have spent several months going through various pre-production
models and firmware revisions ... have you had the issue of water
gathering in the rear battery pack?

No, that site is IMO a heap of rambling crap full of egotistical drivel. If
you read the site carefully you will see that the makers told him that he
had not assembled the camera correctly - there's a screw to hold the
backplate onto the camera and two lever locks that he does not mention.
Also the camera back is sealed - he makes it sound as if it is not.

When I started to read that page it seemed as if he had an axe to grind.

For the use I have, I'm happy with the camera.

On Sun, 4 Sep 2011 16:49:18 +0000 (UTC), Steve Firth
wrote:

Mark wrote:
[snip]

Bloody quick fly tippers !
The “HD Vehicle video cam kit” link to ebay that somebody gave earlier at
£51 is also available from 7dayshop for £30, which does do motion detection,


FWIW I use three trail cams to keep an eye on my property. The are "Little
Acorn" 8MP cameras with infra-red flash. They can also record 640x480
video. The flash is invisible, some trail cams show a red glow.

The cameras record to SDHC cards and are happy with 16GB cards (largest
that I have tried). They take 4x AA batteries internally

Out of curiosity do yours hold the internal batteries in firmly? Mine
had a weak clip on the internal flap which meant occasionally it would
break contact or eject the cells when you hinged it open to retrieve a
card. This became a PIA so I drilled a small hole 1mm in the case
and made a pin from thin brass wire I had lying about. This keeps the
internal flap in place when the hinged base is open.
A previous poster mentioned the delay with a trail camera so it is
worth mentioning that the Little Acorn has side sensors which prepare
he main one to trigger so the delay is less than on some.

G.Harman

wrote:
[snip]

little acorn cameras

Out of curiosity do yours hold the internal batteries in firmly?

So far, yes.

Mine
had a weak clip on the internal flap which meant occasionally it would
break contact or eject the cells when you hinged it open to retrieve a
card. This became a PIA so I drilled a small hole 1mm in the case
and made a pin from thin brass wire I had lying about. This keeps the
internal flap in place when the hinged base is open.

Thanks, I'll remember that if I get problems.

A previous poster mentioned the delay with a trail camera so it is
worth mentioning that the Little Acorn has side sensors which prepare
he main one to trigger so the delay is less than on some.

Yes, I tried to explain that. Probably not well enough.