I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. What do people use? Any other advice?

Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. What do people use? Any other advice?

Well I am a using

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html

for some jobs.

--
Adam

On Mar 17, 1:53*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice?

Well I am a using

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html


Ah. I'd seen the 03 (but remembered much sucking of teeth last time
it was discussed), but I need the 04.

I've also found the wiki on "Cable crimping", but that doesn't discuss
how to join more than two cables together (poke more than one cable in
each end?).

This all comes about because I've already made the joint with the
junction box, and one of the lights suddenly stopped ... and then
suddenly started again (both times involving significant vibration in
the floor above).

My immediate reaction was "lose connection", but I was really puzzled
that
all the connectors felt cold; if the joint was lose, I'd expect it to
get warm.

On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:30:46 -0000, Martin Bonner
wrote:

My immediate reaction was "lose connection", but I was really puzzled
that all the connectors felt cold; if the joint was lose, I'd expect
it to get warm.

I've often seen people write 'loose' when they mean 'lose', but I think
this is the first time I've spotted the opposite affliction. :-)

But to get back to the point, I'd only expect a loose joint to get warm if
it was making a partial (i.e. resistive) connection. If it's simply
intermittent (sometimes making a good connection, sometimes making no
connection at all) there's no reason to expect significant heating.

Richard.
http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/

On Mar 17, 1:45*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice?

http://www.wagobox.com/

I'm a complete convert to these. They're really quick and easy to use,
and can be put in inaccessible locations as well. Check out the videos
on their Support page.

dan.

On Mar 17, 1:45*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch.

What do people use? *

Wago. Marvellous things. No tools, affordable, do the job.

Andy Dingley wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch.

What do people use?

Wago. Marvellous things. No tools, affordable, do the job.

The Ashley JBs I linked to operate just like Wago connectors but in a JB
with with cable grips

--
Adam

On 17/03/2011 14:47, dent wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. What do people use? Any other advice?

http://www.wagobox.com/

I'm a complete convert to these. They're really quick and easy to use,
and can be put in inaccessible locations as well. Check out the videos
on their Support page.

dan.

Me too.
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ago/index.html

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Mar 17, 4:12*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote:
Wago. Marvellous things. * No tools, affordable, do the job.

The Ashley JBs I linked to operate just like Wago connectors but in a JB
with with cable grips

Yes, those look useful too. I'll pick some up next time I'm over at
TLC.

Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch.

I've seen it argued on here that a junction box above a ceiling *is*
accessible as you can just cut a hole in the ceiling to access it.

Though, a chocblock wrapped in insulating tape, as I seem to find
quite frequently, is not acceptable.

JGH

On Mar 17, 1:45*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice?

Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some
sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak.


NT

In article op.vshsl8s9n5ksl5@richard, says...
If it's simply
intermittent (sometimes making a good connection, sometimes making no
connection at all) there's no reason to expect significant heating.


In my experience, when an intermittent connetion is on, it's rarely a
good connection, they they almost always get at least warm and often
hot.

--
Skipweasel - never knowingly understood.

On Mar 17, 10:29*pm, jgharston wrote:
Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch.

I've seen it argued on here that a junction box above a ceiling *is*
accessible as you can just cut a hole in the ceiling to access it.

Though, a chocblock wrapped in insulating tape, as I seem to find
quite frequently, is not acceptable.

JGH

Long long before this group existed I installed a junction box
somewhere on one of my kitchen walls that is plastered over and even
possibly behind a kitchen unit -- hmmm !

Rob

On Mar 17, 6:54*pm, The Medway Handyman
wrote:
On 17/03/2011 14:47, dent wrote:









On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin *wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice?

http://www.wagobox.com/

I'm a complete convert to these. They're really quick and easy to use,
and can be put in inaccessible locations as well. Check out the videos
on their Support page.

dan.

Me too.http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...s_Index/Wago/i...


The 773 push-wire, or the 222 lever connectors?

In article
,
Tabby wrote:
Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some
sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak.

Do you provide strain relief when soldering copper pipes?

--
*Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Mar 18, 2:28*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Mar 17, 6:54*pm, The Medway Handyman
wrote:



On 17/03/2011 14:47, dent wrote:

On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin *wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice?

http://www.wagobox.com/

I'm a complete convert to these. They're really quick and easy to use,
and can be put in inaccessible locations as well. Check out the videos
on their Support page.

dan.

Me too.http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...s_Index/Wago/i...

The 773 push-wire, or the 222 lever connectors?

I use the push-wire ones mostly, because they are smaller (a 6-way
push is the same size as a 3-way lever) and so you can get more
connections in a box. The push-fits are mostly 24A though, so if you
want to wire up higher power circuits you either need to use the
bigger push-wires (41A), or the levers (32A). Levers are very
convenient for temporary work (the push-fit do come apart, but not as
easily). Anything using flexible stranded cable - light fittings for
example - needs the lever sort.

dan.

On Mar 17, 1:45*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice?

What's the right word that describes all these connectors, ie choc
strip, junction boxes, wagos etc? I can't think of anything better
than 'connectors.'


NT

In article ,
John Rumm wrote:
On 18/03/2011 14:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some
sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak.

Do you provide strain relief when soldering copper pipes?

Yup, one pipe is swaged into the other... If you try making a butt joint
in pipe it will break easily.

You'd use a butt joint to solder cables together?

--
*Not all men are annoying. Some are dead.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 17/03/2011 22:29, jgharston wrote:
Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch.

I've seen it argued on here that a junction box above a ceiling *is*
accessible as you can just cut a hole in the ceiling to access it.

Though, a chocblock wrapped in insulating tape, as I seem to find
quite frequently, is not acceptable.

I find them all the time as well.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On 18/03/2011 14:47, dent wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:28 pm, Martin wrote:
On Mar 17, 6:54 pm, The Medway
wrote:



On 17/03/2011 14:47, dent wrote:

On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. What do people use? Any other advice?

http://www.wagobox.com/

I'm a complete convert to these. They're really quick and easy to use,
and can be put in inaccessible locations as well. Check out the videos
on their Support page.

dan.

Me too.http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...s_Index/Wago/i...

The 773 push-wire, or the 222 lever connectors?

I use the push-wire ones mostly, because they are smaller (a 6-way
push is the same size as a 3-way lever) and so you can get more
connections in a box. The push-fits are mostly 24A though, so if you
want to wire up higher power circuits you either need to use the
bigger push-wires (41A), or the levers (32A). Levers are very
convenient for temporary work (the push-fit do come apart, but not as
easily). Anything using flexible stranded cable - light fittings for
example - needs the lever sort.

I use the grey 101's (1 solid to 1 flex) and the white 112's (2 solid to
1 flex) for the switch live & neutrals.



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:51:28 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:

Though, a chocblock wrapped in insulating tape, as I seem to find
quite frequently, is not acceptable.

I find them all the time as well.

Not a red plastic wall plug, stuffed over twisted together wires and
then taped up? Poor quality tape the adhesive had become soft and the
tape was starting to fall off. Found that here.

--
Cheers
Dave.

In article ,
John Rumm writes:
On 18/03/2011 14:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some
sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak.

I have used ordinary junction boxes with screwed terminals as normal,
and then soldered the terminals afterwards. However, unless you are
very expert at soldering, I wouldn't recommend you do this as you
could easily create dry joints unknowingly.

Crimping using a ratchet crimper and the right sized crimps is likely
to be much more reliable in unskilled hands.

Do you provide strain relief when soldering copper pipes?

Yup, one pipe is swaged into the other...

I have an old book on working with copper tube. If you take a standard
soldered joint and apply enough force to pull it apart, the copper tube
breaks somewhere other than at the joint, as if soldered properly, the
joint is stronger than the bare tubing.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:
On 18/03/2011 14:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some
sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak.

I have used ordinary junction boxes with screwed terminals as normal,
and then soldered the terminals afterwards. However, unless you are
very expert at soldering, I wouldn't recommend you do this as you
could easily create dry joints unknowingly.

Crimping using a ratchet crimper and the right sized crimps is likely
to be much more reliable in unskilled hands.

Do you provide strain relief when soldering copper pipes?

Yup, one pipe is swaged into the other...

I have an old book on working with copper tube. If you take a standard
soldered joint and apply enough force to pull it apart, the copper tube
breaks somewhere other than at the joint, as if soldered properly, the
joint is stronger than the bare tubing.

I've a feeling the solder used for pipework is stronger than electronic
solder.

If I were soldering mains cable. I'd twist the connectors first. That
would provide a fair degree of mechanical strength even before it is
soldered.

--
*You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
John Rumm writes:
On 18/03/2011 14:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:
Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some
sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak.

I have used ordinary junction boxes with screwed terminals as normal,
and then soldered the terminals afterwards. However, unless you are
very expert at soldering, I wouldn't recommend you do this as you
could easily create dry joints unknowingly.

Crimping using a ratchet crimper and the right sized crimps is likely
to be much more reliable in unskilled hands.

Do you provide strain relief when soldering copper pipes?
Yup, one pipe is swaged into the other...

I have an old book on working with copper tube. If you take a standard
soldered joint and apply enough force to pull it apart, the copper tube
breaks somewhere other than at the joint, as if soldered properly, the
joint is stronger than the bare tubing.

I've a feeling the solder used for pipework is stronger than electronic
solder.

No, it's more or less the same alloy. The extra strength relative to the
materials being joined when soldering pipework comes from the much
greater joint area and the relative thin-ness of the pipe on domestic
plumbing. Tens of square millimetres of solder in shear rather than
square millimetres in tension. Solder joints are also stronger in shear
than they are in tension. Either way, the thinner the solder film, the
stronger the joint.

--
Tciao for Now!

John.

Crimping using a ratchet crimper and the right sized crimps is likely
to be much more reliable in unskilled hands.


Used these for years for a lot of applications and never once a problem
but you must spend on a decent pair of ratchet crimpers, not that
abortion with Two bits of pressed flat metal!...

--
Tony Sayer

On 18/03/2011 04:46, Tabby wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it
as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I have a recollection that the
only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping
(possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that).

Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for
electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for
mains work. What do people use? Any other advice?

Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some
sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak.

Is crimping a repair and burying it in plaster actually totally kosher?

Just asking because after my brush with a broken ring main a few months
ago (see my posts passim!), which I eventually was forced into getting a
sparks in to sort out, he located a broken, buried cable half way down a
wall... at one point it looked like the house might have needed to be
half-demolished to access the ends of said cable in order to replace it,
and I asked whether he couldn't crimp in a new bit. He was adamant that
he wouldn't.

Ultimately he managed to circumvent the problem by pulling a new length
of cable through the capping (phew!) and I didn't need to press the
issue - but just wondering?

David

On 25 Mar,
tony sayer wrote:

Used these for years for a lot of applications and never once a problem
but you must spend on a decent pair of ratchet crimpers, not that
abortion with Two bits of pressed flat metal!...

We once had problems with large crimps(100mm^2), which were a size too large
for the cable. This caused the cable to stretch and work harden and fail
after a year or two. If the correct size had been used there would have been
no problem.

The equipment fed rom this supply also had problems. The wrong flux(acid) had
been used on soldered lugs and not washed off, leading to corrosion causing
failure particularly on the smaller sizes.

Altogether a bad batch!

--
B Thumbs
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