Inaccessible junction boxes

I need to use junction boxes to connect up socket connections (spurs)
to a ring main, but these junction boxes will be inaccessible later on.
Can I solder the solid cores, and then clamp them under the terminal
screws?

In article .com,
"Ren" writes:
Inaccessible junction boxes

I need to use junction boxes to connect up socket connections (spurs)
to a ring main, but these junction boxes will be inaccessible later on.
Can I solder the solid cores, and then clamp them under the terminal
screws?

If you are soldering, do it the other way round -- screw them in
as normal first, and then solder the terminal and conductors
together. You should only be considering this if you are already
fully competent at electrical soldering. More commonly crimped
connections are used, as it's a method which is more likely to
produce a good result in less skilled hands, but with the proviso
that a good quality ratchet crimper is used.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Ren wrote:

Inaccessible junction boxes

I need to use junction boxes to connect up socket connections (spurs)
to a ring main, but these junction boxes will be inaccessible later on.

Where are these junction boxes going?

Junction boxes under floorboards are considered to be accessible -
even when gaining access involves removing long floorboards, laminate
flooring, two sofas a piano and a complete set of the Encyclopedia
Britannica. :-)

If the junction boxes are really going to be inaccessible it's better
to redesign the circuit to move them somewhere with access, if only
because you can guarantee where any fault will occur.

Spurs are often wired into a socket that is on the ring, which avoids
the need for a junction box.

Can I solder the solid cores, and then clamp them under the terminal
screws?

No this is a bad idea as it would be difficult to get a satisfactory
joint. Such joints would normally be crimped, but again you need to
use the proper tools to get a good joint.

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

John White wrote:

Junction boxes under floorboards are considered to be accessible -
even when gaining access involves removing long floorboards, laminate
flooring, two sofas a piano and a complete set of the Encyclopedia
Britannica. :-)

Does that include fitted carpets on which are shelving units bolted to
the wall?

If so, thats *crazy* - a junction box buried in painted plaster would
be far easier to get at.

Or is it accessible as in "I eventually had to go down to the cellar to
find them."
"That's the Display Department."
"With a torch."
"The lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But you found the plans, didn't you?"
"Oh yes, they were 'on display' in the bottom of a locked filing
cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying
'Beware of the leopard.'"

I'm sure Douglas Adams would have loved Part P.

Sid

John White wrote:

Can I solder the solid cores, and then clamp them under the terminal
screws?

No this is a bad idea as it would be difficult to get a satisfactory
joint. Such joints would normally be crimped, but again you need to
use the proper tools to get a good joint.

Is there really any likelihood of junction boxes developing a contact
fault? As long as they are done up tight enough but not so tight as the
screws are bordering on splaying the female socket apart, I can't see
how or why a junction box would ever fail.

Well, that's what I'm hoping as I have 2 buggers that are only
accessible by pulling down the downstairs ceilings!

:¬)

--
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wrote:

John White wrote:

Junction boxes under floorboards are considered to be accessible -
even when gaining access involves removing long floorboards, laminate
flooring, two sofas a piano and a complete set of the Encyclopedia
Britannica. :-)

Does that include fitted carpets on which are shelving units bolted to
the wall?

No problem. I have a Stanley knife and a staple gun in the toolbox. I
did have to cut through a downstairs ceiling to get to one beneath the
floorboards and under a bath though.

If so, thats *crazy* - a junction box buried in painted plaster would
be far easier to get at.

Seen lots of those too. I've even met one with a gas cooker connector
screwed through it as well.

I'm sure Douglas Adams would have loved Part P.

So would Kafka.

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

Pet @ www.gymratz.co.uk ;¬) wrote:

Is there really any likelihood of junction boxes developing a contact
fault? As long as they are done up tight enough but not so tight as the
screws are bordering on splaying the female socket apart, I can't see
how or why a junction box would ever fail.

I see a few junction boxes where the connections inside them have
failed in some way. Usually these faults are where a conductor has
broken off at the terminal which has sometimes then led to arcing
within the box.

These problem are, as you suggest, usually the result of defects in
the initial installation, such as the connections being under or over
tightened. Cross-threaded screws are another common problem.

These are rare events though. Most junction boxes will outlast the
rest of the installation.

Well, that's what I'm hoping as I have 2 buggers that are only
accessible by pulling down the downstairs ceilings!

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it - just keep a large hole-saw handy.
;-)

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

John White wrote:

Junction boxes under floorboards are considered to be accessible [...]

Not by the NICEIC these days, apparently.

--
Andy

wrote:
Does that include fitted carpets on which are shelving units bolted to
the wall?

If so, thats *crazy* - a junction box buried in painted plaster would
be far easier to get at.

Or is it accessible as in "I eventually had to go down to the cellar to
find them."
"That's the Display Department."
"With a torch."
"The lights had probably gone."
"So had the stairs."
"But you found the plans, didn't you?"
"Oh yes, they were 'on display' in the bottom of a locked filing
cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying
'Beware of the leopard.'"

I'm sure Douglas Adams would have loved Part P.

Sid


This isn't anything to do with Part P, which is flawed for enough
reasons - but this isn't one of them.

The message
from Andy Wade contains these words:

Junction boxes under floorboards are considered to be accessible [...]

Not by the NICEIC these days, apparently.

If they're /that/ inaccessible they'll never know they're there!

--
Skipweasel
Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.

Andy Wade wrote:

John White wrote:

Junction boxes under floorboards are considered to be accessible [...]

Not by the NICEIC these days, apparently.

Presumably this is NICEIC's interpretation that's changed, rather than
the regs themselves.

You don't happen to have a reference or URL, do you ?

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

John White wrote:

Presumably this is NICEIC's interpretation that's changed, rather than
the regs themselves.

Yes.

You don't happen to have a reference or URL, do you ?

"Connections" magazine, Issue 157 (Spring 2006), page 43 - an article on
accessibility of connections, which contains the following:

"[...] However connections required by Reg. 526-04-01 to be accessible
should *not* generally be located under a floor where a carpet is likely
to be laid. A fitted carpet can effectively render connections beneath
the floor inaccessible because of objections from the occupier to the
carpet being lifted, or difficulties in finding the access trap."

IMO carpets are the least of your worries. It's laminate flooring,
sheet vinyl on hardboard, or even ceramic tiles over floorboards that
make such connections _really_ inaccessible.

--
Andy

On 2006-09-17 13:16:21 +0100, Andy Wade said:

John White wrote:

Presumably this is NICEIC's interpretation that's changed, rather than
the regs themselves.

Yes.

You don't happen to have a reference or URL, do you ?

"Connections" magazine, Issue 157 (Spring 2006), page 43 - an article
on accessibility of connections, which contains the following:

"[...] However connections required by Reg. 526-04-01 to be accessible
should *not* generally be located under a floor where a carpet is
likely to be laid. A fitted carpet can effectively render connections
beneath the floor inaccessible because of objections from the occupier
to the carpet being lifted, or difficulties in finding the access trap."

IMO carpets are the least of your worries. It's laminate flooring,
sheet vinyl on hardboard, or even ceramic tiles over floorboards that
make such connections _really_ inaccessible.

Hmm....

All a bit subjective, isn't it?

I don't recall NICEIC being given the authority to set standards or
even to lay down the rules on their interpretation.

Having said that, one can see some common sense in what is being said.

Andy Wade wrote:

John White wrote:

Presumably this is NICEIC's interpretation that's changed, rather than
the regs themselves.

Yes.

As I suspected.

You don't happen to have a reference or URL, do you ?

"Connections" magazine, Issue 157 (Spring 2006), page 43 - an article on
accessibility of connections, which contains the following:

"[...] However connections required by Reg. 526-04-01 to be accessible
should *not* generally be located under a floor where a carpet is likely
to be laid. A fitted carpet can effectively render connections beneath
the floor inaccessible because of objections from the occupier to the
carpet being lifted, or difficulties in finding the access trap."

Thanks for this.

IMO carpets are the least of your worries. It's laminate flooring,
sheet vinyl on hardboard, or even ceramic tiles over floorboards that
make such connections _really_ inaccessible.

That laminate flooring is usually laid _across_ the floorboards
doesn't help either. Even vinyl flooring laid over hardboard is bad
enough.

I now generally consider laminate floors as being "solid" and design
or quote accordingly.

Fortunately the only time I've really had to get under some ceramic
tiles there was enough space to crawl under the floor from another
room.

Phrases you don't want to hear: No.765
"We've had new flooring put down since you quoted for the work."

John
--
John White,
Electrical Contractor

On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 13:45:17 +0100, Andy Hall wrote:

On 2006-09-17 13:16:21 +0100, Andy Wade said:

John White wrote:

Presumably this is NICEIC's interpretation that's changed, rather than
the regs themselves.

Yes.

You don't happen to have a reference or URL, do you ?

"Connections" magazine, Issue 157 (Spring 2006), page 43 - an article
on accessibility of connections, which contains the following:

"[...] However connections required by Reg. 526-04-01 to be accessible
should *not* generally be located under a floor where a carpet is
likely to be laid. A fitted carpet can effectively render connections
beneath the floor inaccessible because of objections from the occupier
to the carpet being lifted, or difficulties in finding the access trap."

IMO carpets are the least of your worries. It's laminate flooring,
sheet vinyl on hardboard, or even ceramic tiles over floorboards that
make such connections _really_ inaccessible.

Hmm....

All a bit subjective, isn't it?

I don't recall NICEIC being given the authority to set standards or
even to lay down the rules on their interpretation.

Having said that, one can see some common sense in what is being said.

You are right that they don't set the standards. They do _interpret_ the
standards in the field. Their inspectors have something of a reputation
for ring-fencing the regs. It would take a lot of courage for a member to
challenge the inspector. OTOH the member could change to one of the
many (currently nine I believe) other organizations that register
electricians. However the NICEIC have positioned/marketed themselves to
the point that many members of the general public and many
goernment/ngo/commercial 'officials' treat them as if they were the only
certification body for electricians.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
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