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Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a
lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. What do people use? Any other advice? |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. What do people use? Any other advice? Well I am a using http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html for some jobs. -- Adam |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Mar 17, 1:53*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote: Martin Bonner wrote: I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice? Well I am a using http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ804.html http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/ASJ803.html Ah. I'd seen the 03 (but remembered much sucking of teeth last time it was discussed), but I need the 04. I've also found the wiki on "Cable crimping", but that doesn't discuss how to join more than two cables together (poke more than one cable in each end?). This all comes about because I've already made the joint with the junction box, and one of the lights suddenly stopped ... and then suddenly started again (both times involving significant vibration in the floor above). My immediate reaction was "lose connection", but I was really puzzled that all the connectors felt cold; if the joint was lose, I'd expect it to get warm. |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Thu, 17 Mar 2011 14:30:46 -0000, Martin Bonner
wrote: My immediate reaction was "lose connection", but I was really puzzled that all the connectors felt cold; if the joint was lose, I'd expect it to get warm. I've often seen people write 'loose' when they mean 'lose', but I think this is the first time I've spotted the opposite affliction. :-) But to get back to the point, I'd only expect a loose joint to get warm if it was making a partial (i.e. resistive) connection. If it's simply intermittent (sometimes making a good connection, sometimes making no connection at all) there's no reason to expect significant heating. Richard. http://www.rtrussell.co.uk/ |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Mar 17, 1:45*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice? http://www.wagobox.com/ I'm a complete convert to these. They're really quick and easy to use, and can be put in inaccessible locations as well. Check out the videos on their Support page. dan. |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Mar 17, 1:45*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. What do people use? * Wago. Marvellous things. No tools, affordable, do the job. |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
Andy Dingley wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin Bonner wrote: I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. What do people use? Wago. Marvellous things. No tools, affordable, do the job. The Ashley JBs I linked to operate just like Wago connectors but in a JB with with cable grips -- Adam |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On 17/03/2011 14:47, dent wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin wrote: I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. What do people use? Any other advice? http://www.wagobox.com/ I'm a complete convert to these. They're really quick and easy to use, and can be put in inaccessible locations as well. Check out the videos on their Support page. dan. Me too. http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...ago/index.html -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Mar 17, 4:12*pm, "ARWadsworth"
wrote: Wago. Marvellous things. * No tools, affordable, do the job. The Ashley JBs I linked to operate just like Wago connectors but in a JB with with cable grips Yes, those look useful too. I'll pick some up next time I'm over at TLC. |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I've seen it argued on here that a junction box above a ceiling *is* accessible as you can just cut a hole in the ceiling to access it. Though, a chocblock wrapped in insulating tape, as I seem to find quite frequently, is not acceptable. JGH |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Mar 17, 1:45*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice? Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak. NT |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
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Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Mar 17, 10:29*pm, jgharston wrote:
Martin Bonner wrote: I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I've seen it argued on here that a junction box above a ceiling *is* accessible as you can just cut a hole in the ceiling to access it. Though, a chocblock wrapped in insulating tape, as I seem to find quite frequently, is not acceptable. JGH Long long before this group existed I installed a junction box somewhere on one of my kitchen walls that is plastered over and even possibly behind a kitchen unit -- hmmm ! Rob |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Mar 17, 6:54*pm, The Medway Handyman
wrote: On 17/03/2011 14:47, dent wrote: On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin *wrote: I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice? http://www.wagobox.com/ I'm a complete convert to these. They're really quick and easy to use, and can be put in inaccessible locations as well. Check out the videos on their Support page. dan. Me too.http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...s_Index/Wago/i... The 773 push-wire, or the 222 lever connectors? |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
In article
, Tabby wrote: Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak. Do you provide strain relief when soldering copper pipes? -- *Procrastination is the art of keeping up with yesterday. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Mar 18, 2:28*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
On Mar 17, 6:54*pm, The Medway Handyman wrote: On 17/03/2011 14:47, dent wrote: On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin *wrote: I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice? http://www.wagobox.com/ I'm a complete convert to these. They're really quick and easy to use, and can be put in inaccessible locations as well. Check out the videos on their Support page. dan. Me too.http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...s_Index/Wago/i... The 773 push-wire, or the 222 lever connectors? I use the push-wire ones mostly, because they are smaller (a 6-way push is the same size as a 3-way lever) and so you can get more connections in a box. The push-fits are mostly 24A though, so if you want to wire up higher power circuits you either need to use the bigger push-wires (41A), or the levers (32A). Levers are very convenient for temporary work (the push-fit do come apart, but not as easily). Anything using flexible stranded cable - light fittings for example - needs the lever sort. dan. |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Mar 17, 1:45*pm, Martin Bonner wrote:
I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. *It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. *I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. *What do people use? *Any other advice? What's the right word that describes all these connectors, ie choc strip, junction boxes, wagos etc? I can't think of anything better than 'connectors.' NT |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
In article ,
John Rumm wrote: On 18/03/2011 14:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , wrote: Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak. Do you provide strain relief when soldering copper pipes? Yup, one pipe is swaged into the other... If you try making a butt joint in pipe it will break easily. You'd use a butt joint to solder cables together? -- *Not all men are annoying. Some are dead. Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On 17/03/2011 22:29, jgharston wrote:
Martin Bonner wrote: I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I've seen it argued on here that a junction box above a ceiling *is* accessible as you can just cut a hole in the ceiling to access it. Though, a chocblock wrapped in insulating tape, as I seem to find quite frequently, is not acceptable. I find them all the time as well. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On 18/03/2011 14:47, dent wrote:
On Mar 18, 2:28 pm, Martin wrote: On Mar 17, 6:54 pm, The Medway wrote: On 17/03/2011 14:47, dent wrote: On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin wrote: I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. What do people use? Any other advice? http://www.wagobox.com/ I'm a complete convert to these. They're really quick and easy to use, and can be put in inaccessible locations as well. Check out the videos on their Support page. dan. Me too.http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...s_Index/Wago/i... The 773 push-wire, or the 222 lever connectors? I use the push-wire ones mostly, because they are smaller (a 6-way push is the same size as a 3-way lever) and so you can get more connections in a box. The push-fits are mostly 24A though, so if you want to wire up higher power circuits you either need to use the bigger push-wires (41A), or the levers (32A). Levers are very convenient for temporary work (the push-fit do come apart, but not as easily). Anything using flexible stranded cable - light fittings for example - needs the lever sort. I use the grey 101's (1 solid to 1 flex) and the white 112's (2 solid to 1 flex) for the switch live & neutrals. -- Dave - The Medway Handyman www.medwayhandyman.co.uk |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On Fri, 18 Mar 2011 17:51:28 +0000, The Medway Handyman wrote:
Though, a chocblock wrapped in insulating tape, as I seem to find quite frequently, is not acceptable. I find them all the time as well. Not a red plastic wall plug, stuffed over twisted together wires and then taped up? Poor quality tape the adhesive had become soft and the tape was starting to fall off. Found that here. -- Cheers Dave. |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
In article ,
John Rumm writes: On 18/03/2011 14:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , wrote: Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak. I have used ordinary junction boxes with screwed terminals as normal, and then soldered the terminals afterwards. However, unless you are very expert at soldering, I wouldn't recommend you do this as you could easily create dry joints unknowingly. Crimping using a ratchet crimper and the right sized crimps is likely to be much more reliable in unskilled hands. Do you provide strain relief when soldering copper pipes? Yup, one pipe is swaged into the other... I have an old book on working with copper tube. If you take a standard soldered joint and apply enough force to pull it apart, the copper tube breaks somewhere other than at the joint, as if soldered properly, the joint is stronger than the bare tubing. -- Andrew Gabriel [email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup] |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
In article ,
Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , John Rumm writes: On 18/03/2011 14:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , wrote: Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak. I have used ordinary junction boxes with screwed terminals as normal, and then soldered the terminals afterwards. However, unless you are very expert at soldering, I wouldn't recommend you do this as you could easily create dry joints unknowingly. Crimping using a ratchet crimper and the right sized crimps is likely to be much more reliable in unskilled hands. Do you provide strain relief when soldering copper pipes? Yup, one pipe is swaged into the other... I have an old book on working with copper tube. If you take a standard soldered joint and apply enough force to pull it apart, the copper tube breaks somewhere other than at the joint, as if soldered properly, the joint is stronger than the bare tubing. I've a feeling the solder used for pipework is stronger than electronic solder. If I were soldering mains cable. I'd twist the connectors first. That would provide a fair degree of mechanical strength even before it is soldered. -- *You're just jealous because the voices only talk to me * Dave Plowman London SW To e-mail, change noise into sound. |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article , Andrew Gabriel wrote: In article , John Rumm writes: On 18/03/2011 14:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote: In article , wrote: Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak. I have used ordinary junction boxes with screwed terminals as normal, and then soldered the terminals afterwards. However, unless you are very expert at soldering, I wouldn't recommend you do this as you could easily create dry joints unknowingly. Crimping using a ratchet crimper and the right sized crimps is likely to be much more reliable in unskilled hands. Do you provide strain relief when soldering copper pipes? Yup, one pipe is swaged into the other... I have an old book on working with copper tube. If you take a standard soldered joint and apply enough force to pull it apart, the copper tube breaks somewhere other than at the joint, as if soldered properly, the joint is stronger than the bare tubing. I've a feeling the solder used for pipework is stronger than electronic solder. No, it's more or less the same alloy. The extra strength relative to the materials being joined when soldering pipework comes from the much greater joint area and the relative thin-ness of the pipe on domestic plumbing. Tens of square millimetres of solder in shear rather than square millimetres in tension. Solder joints are also stronger in shear than they are in tension. Either way, the thinner the solder film, the stronger the joint. -- Tciao for Now! John. |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
Crimping using a ratchet crimper and the right sized crimps is likely
to be much more reliable in unskilled hands. Used these for years for a lot of applications and never once a problem but you must spend on a decent pair of ratchet crimpers, not that abortion with Two bits of pressed flat metal!... -- Tony Sayer |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On 18/03/2011 04:46, Tabby wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:45 pm, Martin wrote: I want to fit a junction box in the ceiling void. It will be above a lathe and plaster ceiling, and below a tiled floor, so describing it as "accessible" is a bit of a stretch. I have a recollection that the only permitted jointing technology in such circumstances is crimping (possibly also soldering, but I'm not sure about that). Searching for "electrical crimping tool" finds lots of crimps for electronics, comms, etc, but nothing that claims to be suitable for mains work. What do people use? Any other advice? Soldering's also permitted, but practically you need to provide some sort of strain relief for the joint, as solder is very weak. Is crimping a repair and burying it in plaster actually totally kosher? Just asking because after my brush with a broken ring main a few months ago (see my posts passim!), which I eventually was forced into getting a sparks in to sort out, he located a broken, buried cable half way down a wall... at one point it looked like the house might have needed to be half-demolished to access the ends of said cable in order to replace it, and I asked whether he couldn't crimp in a new bit. He was adamant that he wouldn't. Ultimately he managed to circumvent the problem by pulling a new length of cable through the capping (phew!) and I didn't need to press the issue - but just wondering? David |
Inaccessible junction box / electrical crimping tools
On 25 Mar,
tony sayer wrote: Used these for years for a lot of applications and never once a problem but you must spend on a decent pair of ratchet crimpers, not that abortion with Two bits of pressed flat metal!... We once had problems with large crimps(100mm^2), which were a size too large for the cable. This caused the cable to stretch and work harden and fail after a year or two. If the correct size had been used there would have been no problem. The equipment fed rom this supply also had problems. The wrong flux(acid) had been used on soldered lugs and not washed off, leading to corrosion causing failure particularly on the smaller sizes. Altogether a bad batch! -- B Thumbs Change lycos to yahoo to reply |
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