There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

Cheers
Richard

"geraldthehamster" wrote in message
...
There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

Cheers
Richard

http://www.countryliving.co.uk/index...oom/topic/3571

On Jan 3, 9:19*pm, geraldthehamster wrote:
There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

Cheers
Richard

We have a Super Demon Boiler from the Hellfire Combustion Company.It
produces 60,000 BTU/hr on wood and 75,000 BTU/hr on solid fuels. It
has a back boiler and will heat up to 15 (I think) radiators.
Excellent machine.

Regards

Jonathan

On 03/01/2011 21:19, geraldthehamster wrote:
There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

Cheers
Richard

I've got a Morso stove in the living room, marvellous - well built and
seemingly efficient as these things go.

Rob

On Jan 3, 9:19*pm, geraldthehamster wrote:
There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

Cheers
Richard

Anything from Norway/Sweden. You mostly pay for fancy ironwork, some
of which is quite fragile. "Flamewashing" doesn't work.

If you can, go for a "roomsealed" one, ie draws air from outside
directly into the stove. These avoid drawing cold air into the room.
http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/external-air-stove.html

Jonathan wrote:

On Jan 3, 9:19 pm, geraldthehamster wrote:
There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

We have a Super Demon Boiler from the Hellfire Combustion Company.It
produces 60,000 BTU/hr on wood and 75,000 BTU/hr on solid fuels. It
has a back boiler and will heat up to 15 (I think) radiators.
Excellent machine.

If someone asks for a recommendation for a small runabout car for
urban commuting and shopping, please bear in mind that it's not
going to help the enquirer much if you tell them how happy you are
with your 4x4 with a tow hook that will take a trailer in which you
can carry 15 weeks' worth of shopping.

So here we have someone asking about stoves in the 5-8kW range,
and you wax lyrical about a stove which gives 60-75 kBTU/h, which
is around 20 kW. Duh.

Someone else mentioned Morso, which I would endorse. They make a
range of multifuel stoves from just under 5 to just over 10 kW.
Many of their models are named after animals, and I used to have
a Squirrel, which is the baby of the range. Very happy with it.
They make a variant of this which is approved for the burning of
wood in smoke control areas.

Don't know about the "Miele" aspect, but they're pretty rugged.

In message
,
harry writes
On Jan 3, 9:19*pm, geraldthehamster wrote:
There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

Cheers
Richard

Anything from Norway/Sweden. You mostly pay for fancy ironwork, some
of which is quite fragile. "Flamewashing" doesn't work.

If you can, go for a "roomsealed" one, ie draws air from outside
directly into the stove. These avoid drawing cold air into the room.
http://www.stovesonline.co.uk/external-air-stove.html

Not a recommendation but a couple of points....

Fire bars used for multifuel are more expensive as they are said to need
chrome steel.

Heat output to the room is seriously diminished by back and side
boilers.

We have a stove from Clearview (Shropshire), welded steel, underfloor
draft option and airwash.

In my experience, airwash does work. The glass accumulates a grey finish
over several weeks constant use. This can be readily scrubbed off with
washing up liquid and sponge. Dry, mainly hardwood fuel. Previous
experience with glass doors was black soot requiring pot scouring.

regards

--
Tim Lamb

Thanks (with one obvious exception) for the replies.

I've been sort of offered a Stovax Sheraton in need of refurbishment,
which on the face of it looks plausible if the price is right. I won't
be using a back boiler. I'm intending to use it as a backup to our
bottled gas central heating boiler (no mains gas out here). Next
winter if I can avoid using the boiler so much, maybe it'll cost me
less than the £400 quid I spent on gas in December just in keeping the
house warm.

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from? I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a
few tree surgeons. I've considered turning half my garden into an ash
coppice, but from what I've read on the amount of land needed, I'd be
very far from self-sufficiency, though it might make a contribution.

Cheers
Richard

On Tue, 4 Jan 2011 10:07:20 +0000, Tim Lamb wrote:

Heat output to the room is seriously diminished by back and side
boilers.

Yeah but then you have heat which you can move to other parts of the
house and not just have one room a Death Valley temperatures and the
all the others with ice on the windows. B-)

--
Cheers
Dave.

geraldthehamster wrote:
Thanks (with one obvious exception) for the replies.

I've been sort of offered a Stovax Sheraton in need of refurbishment,
which on the face of it looks plausible if the price is right. I won't
be using a back boiler. I'm intending to use it as a backup to our
bottled gas central heating boiler (no mains gas out here). Next
winter if I can avoid using the boiler so much, maybe it'll cost me
less than the £400 quid I spent on gas in December just in keeping the
house warm.


join the club mate. Bottled gas is however bloody expensive.

Buy oil ant much cheaper these days y'know.


Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from? I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a
few tree surgeons. I've considered turning half my garden into an ash
coppice, but from what I've read on the amount of land needed, I'd be
very far from self-sufficiency, though it might make a contribution.

Aye, there's the rub. With what estates do provide wood now running out
on a regular basis, and the smell of woodsmoke a lot more prevalent than
it once was, wood is no longer a cheap fuel.

The average output of land used for biofuel is about 100mW per square
meter. Given you probably need about a KW for a house on average, that's
something like a hectare.



Cheers
Richard

Ronald Raygun ) wibbled on Tuesday 04 January
2011 10:06:

Jonathan wrote:

On Jan 3, 9:19 pm, geraldthehamster wrote:
There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

We have a Super Demon Boiler from the Hellfire Combustion Company.It
produces 60,000 BTU/hr on wood and 75,000 BTU/hr on solid fuels. It
has a back boiler and will heat up to 15 (I think) radiators.
Excellent machine.

If someone asks for a recommendation for a small runabout car for
urban commuting and shopping, please bear in mind that it's not
going to help the enquirer much if you tell them how happy you are
with your 4x4 with a tow hook that will take a trailer in which you
can carry 15 weeks' worth of shopping.

So here we have someone asking about stoves in the 5-8kW range,
and you wax lyrical about a stove which gives 60-75 kBTU/h, which
is around 20 kW. Duh.

On that note, I'm happy with my Aga Little Wenlock Classic.

Technically it burns most fuels, except for house coal (too tarry) and
petrocokes (too hot).

But in reality, it is best with anthracite, or better, high quality
manufactured fuels (eggs) as you can't get much wood in it so it needs
refuelling extremely often compared to burning phurnacite where it will burn
flat out for a couple of hours or upto about 10 hours on slumber.

Thus, to the OP, I would recommend the biggest stove that will fit with a
decent sized grate and ashpan so you can get a sensible amount of wood in if
required.

Cheers

Tim
--
Tim Watts

On Jan 3, 9:19*pm, geraldthehamster wrote:
There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

Cheers
Richard

A lot will depend on your installation. Do you need a freestanding or
inset stove? What age is your house and what style will match it?
I've had 2 stoves in different houses.
The first was a Clearview. That was great. I used it as my main heat
source and worked it hard. I replaced the usual consumables (door
seal, firebrick liners and a baffle plate) after about 6 years
although some weren't really necessary.
My current stove is a Stovax Riva 55. It''s an inset stove of about
8kW. It needs 2 baffle plates a year and isn't a patch on the
Clearview. I suspect it's built more for style than function.
You say you want 5-8kW. Where do you get this figure? If you look at
the standard calculation used by the majority of suppliers, it simply
uses the room volume to work it out. This ignores insulation levels,
draughts, etc. It also assumes a max achievable temp difference of
only 20C. In other words, that's the best you will get after the
stove's been running for ever. We've been dropping to -10C easily
recently. I installed a stove that was double the calculated room
value. Admittedly it was into a 250 year old house but I never
regretted going up in size. You can always turn it down or do what I
did and open the doors to the rest of the house.

John

geraldthehamster wrote:

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from?

Local distributors.

I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a few tree surgeons.

Perhaps, but the beauty of multifuel stoves is that they don't just burn
wood. Wood gives a nice pretty effect but has a low specific heat which
means you need to feed the stove quite often. If you want heat with less
fuss, the stuff to burn is one of the manufactured solid fuels, like
Homefire or Phurnacite, then the stove will keep going 24/7 while needing
attention only 2-3 times a day.

On 4 Jan, 10:33, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
geraldthehamster wrote:
Thanks (with one obvious exception) for the replies.

I've been sort of offered a Stovax Sheraton in need of refurbishment,
which on the face of it looks plausible if the price is right. I won't
be using a back boiler. I'm intending to use it as a backup to our
bottled gas central heating boiler (no mains gas out here). Next
winter if I can avoid using the boiler so much, maybe it'll cost me
less than the £400 quid I spent on gas in December just in keeping the
house warm.

join the club mate. Bottled gas is however bloody expensive.

Buy oil ant much cheaper these days y'know.

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from? I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a
few tree surgeons. I've considered turning half my garden into an ash
coppice, but from what I've read on the amount of land needed, I'd be
very far from self-sufficiency, though it might make a contribution.

Aye, there's the rub. With what estates do provide wood now running out
on a regular basis, and the smell of woodsmoke a lot more prevalent than
it once was, wood is no longer a cheap fuel.

The average output of land used for biofuel is about 100mW per square
meter. Given you probably need about a KW for a house on average, that's
something like a hectare.



Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I read somewhere recently, in one forum or other, that you;d need
about 10 acres to be completely self-sufficient for a 3-4 bedroom
house. Fortunately I' not aiming to be self-sufficient. With the space
available I reckon I could grow 100 trees and still have some garden
left, but on (for the sake of argument) 5 year rotation for ash, that
would mean I was only coppicing 20 trees a year - say 100 poles if I
was lucky.

Cheers
Richard

On 4 Jan, 11:22, John wrote:
On Jan 3, 9:19*pm, geraldthehamster wrote:

There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

Cheers
Richard

A lot will depend on your installation. Do you need a freestanding or
inset stove? What age is your house and what style will match it?
I've had 2 stoves in different houses.
The first was a Clearview. That was great. I used it as my main heat
source and worked it hard. I replaced the usual consumables (door
seal, firebrick liners and a baffle plate) after about 6 years
although some weren't really necessary.
My current stove is a Stovax Riva 55. It''s an inset stove of about
8kW. It needs 2 baffle plates a year and isn't a patch on the
Clearview. I suspect it's built more for style than function.
You say you want 5-8kW. Where do you get this figure? If you look at
the standard calculation used by the majority of suppliers, it simply
uses the room volume to work it out. This ignores insulation levels,
draughts, etc. It also assumes a max achievable temp difference of
only 20C. In other words, that's the best you will get after the
stove's been running for ever. We've been dropping to -10C easily
recently. I installed a stove that was double the calculated room
value. Admittedly it was into a 250 year old house but I never
regretted going up in size. You can always turn it down or do what I
did and open the doors to the rest of the house.

John

I calculated the value needed for the room at about 2 1/2 kW, but the
room is open to the hall and has the stairs in it as well, so I want
the heat to heat more than just the room that the stove will be in.

Cheers
Richard

On Jan 4, 11:54 am, Ronald Raygun
wrote:
geraldthehamster wrote:
Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from?

Local distributors.

I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a few tree surgeons.

who will be friendlyly charging you £50 odd per dumpy bag ;)

Perhaps, but the beauty of multifuel stoves is that they don't just burn
wood. Wood gives a nice pretty effect but has a low specific heat which
means you need to feed the stove quite often.

If you want heat with less
fuss, the stuff to burn is one of the manufactured solid fuels, like
Homefire or Phurnacite, then the stove will keep going 24/7 while needing
attention only 2-3 times a day.

as you trot in and out with buckets of red hot ashes.... and hoover
the coal dust out of the carpets, and wash your hands every time you
touch it - horiible filthy dusty stuff!

IME we have to feed/tend it *more* when we burn coal based stuff.
This winter we're using coal up before an outhouse gets knocked down -
our usage of fiirelighters must have tripled through 1) extra starting
heat required 2) false starts and 3)unexpected extinguishments
requiring later relighting.

With wood :- 1/2 a firelighter *per day*

1 X Franco Belge (sp) 8kw
1 X EFEL (Foundries Lyonnaise) 10kw

MUCH prefer the latter - better built, better control

Airwash works on both when burning wood, best on latter
(don;t believe you can airwash glass doors when burning coal as needs
bottom fed air thru grate)

Jim K

On Jan 3, 9:19*pm, geraldthehamster wrote:
There seems to be a lot of variation in price, for the same
kilowattage. Would anyone care to recommend a make, in the 5-8 kW
range? What is the Miele of multifuel stoves?

Cheers
Richard

Another vote for Morso - they are massively better than anything else
we've tried in terms of ease of lighting, ruggedness and reliability.
Clearviews look really good too, but are much more expensive.


A

On Jan 4, 12:06 pm, geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Jan, 10:33, The Natural Philosopher wrote:



geraldthehamster wrote:
Thanks (with one obvious exception) for the replies.

I've been sort of offered a Stovax Sheraton in need of refurbishment,
which on the face of it looks plausible if the price is right. I won't
be using a back boiler. I'm intending to use it as a backup to our
bottled gas central heating boiler (no mains gas out here). Next
winter if I can avoid using the boiler so much, maybe it'll cost me
less than the £400 quid I spent on gas in December just in keeping the
house warm.

join the club mate. Bottled gas is however bloody expensive.

Buy oil ant much cheaper these days y'know.

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from? I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a
few tree surgeons. I've considered turning half my garden into an ash
coppice, but from what I've read on the amount of land needed, I'd be
very far from self-sufficiency, though it might make a contribution.

Aye, there's the rub. With what estates do provide wood now running out
on a regular basis, and the smell of woodsmoke a lot more prevalent than
it once was, wood is no longer a cheap fuel.

The average output of land used for biofuel is about 100mW per square
meter. Given you probably need about a KW for a house on average, that's
something like a hectare.

Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I read somewhere recently, in one forum or other, that you;d need
about 10 acres to be completely self-sufficient for a 3-4 bedroom
house. Fortunately I' not aiming to be self-sufficient. With the space
available I reckon I could grow 100 trees and still have some garden
left, but on (for the sake of argument) 5 year rotation for ash, that
would mean I was only coppicing 20 trees a year - say 100 poles if I
was lucky.

Cheers
Richard

mmm so how much wood "in the pile" would that give you - in m3 or
dumpy bags worth?

Jim K

On 4 Jan, 12:35, Jim K wrote:
On Jan 4, 12:06 pm, geraldthehamster wrote:





On 4 Jan, 10:33, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

geraldthehamster wrote:
Thanks (with one obvious exception) for the replies.

I've been sort of offered a Stovax Sheraton in need of refurbishment,
which on the face of it looks plausible if the price is right. I won't
be using a back boiler. I'm intending to use it as a backup to our
bottled gas central heating boiler (no mains gas out here). Next
winter if I can avoid using the boiler so much, maybe it'll cost me
less than the £400 quid I spent on gas in December just in keeping the
house warm.

join the club mate. Bottled gas is however bloody expensive.

Buy oil ant much cheaper these days y'know.

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from? I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a
few tree surgeons. I've considered turning half my garden into an ash
coppice, but from what I've read on the amount of land needed, I'd be
very far from self-sufficiency, though it might make a contribution..

Aye, there's the rub. With what estates do provide wood now running out
on a regular basis, and the smell of woodsmoke a lot more prevalent than
it once was, wood is no longer a cheap fuel.

The average output of land used for biofuel is about 100mW per square
meter. Given you probably need about a KW for a house on average, that's
something like a hectare.

Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I read somewhere recently, in one forum or other, that you;d need
about 10 acres to be completely self-sufficient for a 3-4 bedroom
house. Fortunately I' not aiming to be self-sufficient. With the space
available I reckon I could grow 100 trees and still have some garden
left, but on (for the sake of argument) 5 year rotation for ash, that
would mean I was only coppicing 20 trees a year - say 100 poles if I
was lucky.

Cheers
Richard

mmm so how much wood "in the pile" would that give you - in m3 or
dumpy bags worth?

Jim K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Not a fat lot I don't think.

Cheers
Richard

Jim K wrote:

On Jan 4, 11:54 am, Ronald Raygun
wrote:

If you want heat with less
fuss, the stuff to burn is one of the manufactured solid fuels, like
Homefire or Phurnacite, then the stove will keep going 24/7 while needing
attention only 2-3 times a day.

as you trot in and out with buckets of red hot ashes....

Your ashes should never be red hot except after riddling. You should
empty the ashpan *before* riddling, when it will have had 8-12 hours to
cool down from the last riddling.

My routine was to remove the full ashpan and put it down underneath or in
front of the stove, onto the (relatively) cool hearth plinth for 20 mins
or so while making breakfast. Then they were cool enough to be tipped into
a plastic bin. Then replace ashpan, riddle, top up fuel. Without this
cooling-down step, the ashes would have had to be tipped into a metal
bucket first, which generates quite a bit of dust.

and hoover the coal dust out of the carpets,

True, alas. Better not to have carpet near the stove.

and wash your hands every time you
touch it - horiible filthy dusty stuff!

Try gloves. :-)

IME we have to feed/tend it *more* when we burn coal based stuff.

That would have been the case if you used e.g. Coalite which is very light,
or even actual coal. You need the dense stuff like Ancit or Phurnacite.

Ronald Raygun ) wibbled on Tuesday 04 January
2011 11:54:

geraldthehamster wrote:

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from?

Local distributors.

Anthracite - DJ Davies of Wales, tonne at a time.

Phurnacite - Fergusson of Scotland, tonne

Both are shipped on a pallette of 40 x 25kg or 50 x 20kg bags and works out
rather less all in (50-70 quid) less than the "local" coal merchants.

Only downside is unloading a pallette but even I can do that in an hour and
bags are handy of you don't have a bunker - pile them up all over the place
whereever's out the way.

--
Tim Watts

Ronald Raygun ) wibbled on Tuesday 04 January
2011 12:43:

Jim K wrote:

On Jan 4, 11:54 am, Ronald Raygun
wrote:

If you want heat with less
fuss, the stuff to burn is one of the manufactured solid fuels, like
Homefire or Phurnacite, then the stove will keep going 24/7 while
needing attention only 2-3 times a day.

as you trot in and out with buckets of red hot ashes....

Your ashes should never be red hot except after riddling. You should
empty the ashpan *before* riddling, when it will have had 8-12 hours to
cool down from the last riddling.

My routine was to remove the full ashpan and put it down underneath or in
front of the stove, onto the (relatively) cool hearth plinth for 20 mins
or so while making breakfast. Then they were cool enough to be tipped
into
a plastic bin. Then replace ashpan, riddle, top up fuel. Without this
cooling-down step, the ashes would have had to be tipped into a metal
bucket first, which generates quite a bit of dust.

I went to a lot of trouble to procure a metal bucket (they aren't in even
the most Arkwrighty of hardwaqre stores here). I keep it outside and carry
the ashpan and dump it there, red hot if needs be.

I learnt last year dumping ask inside was a bad idea...

and hoover the coal dust out of the carpets,

I get virtually no spillage - a little dust does accumulate near the stove
but I hoover that up when the stove is cold - or wipe it up with a damp
cloth.

True, alas. Better not to have carpet near the stove.

and wash your hands every time you
touch it - horiible filthy dusty stuff!

Try gloves. :-)

Ash comes off pretty easiliy IME - it's coal dust that gets ingrained...

IME we have to feed/tend it *more* when we burn coal based stuff.

That would have been the case if you used e.g. Coalite which is very
light,
or even actual coal. You need the dense stuff like Ancit or Phurnacite.

Yep - Phurnacite has the best energy density, easiest to light (with just
large chuck of firelighter) and best slumbering of several I tried
(Maxibrite, Anthracite, New Flame and wood). Antracite had the disadvntage
that it clickers up the grate which the manufacturered fuels don't.

--
Tim Watts

On Jan 4, 12:43 pm, Ronald Raygun
wrote:

You should
empty the ashpan *before* riddling, when it will have had 8-12 hours to
cool down from the last riddling.

"cool down" ? inside a 200degC metal box runnning 24/7 as you say?
erm....

My routine was to remove the full ashpan and put it down underneath or in
front of the stove, onto the (relatively) cool hearth plinth for 20 mins
or so while making breakfast. Then they were cool enough to be tipped into
a plastic bin. Then replace ashpan, riddle, top up fuel. Without this
cooling-down step, the ashes would have had to be tipped into a metal
bucket first, which generates quite a bit of dust.

how big was your ashpan?!

and wash your hands every time you
touch it - horiible filthy dusty stuff!

Try gloves. :-)

clean pair each time? ;) - coal dust gets everywhere including inside
gloves.

Jim K

Aye, there's the rub. With what estates do provide wood now running out
on a regular basis, and the smell of woodsmoke a lot more prevalent than
it once was, wood is no longer a cheap fuel.

Now the wood burners have turned all the spare wood into CO2 they want to
burn cheaper stuff like oil and gas to make even more CO2 instead of buying
wood grown to burn.
Typical I'm alright sod everyone else attitude.

Jim K wrote:

On Jan 4, 12:43 pm, Ronald Raygun
wrote:

You should
empty the ashpan *before* riddling, when it will have had 8-12 hours to
cool down from the last riddling.

"cool down" ? inside a 200degC metal box runnning 24/7 as you say?
erm....

Erm what? Would you not agree that 200degC is a lot cooler than red hot?
The idea is that when the ashpan comes out of the stove, it should not be
at the temperature of the red hot embers but at the cooler temperature of
the stove itself. That's phase 1 of the coolong down. Phase 2 (described
below) then cools the ashes down further so that they could be dumped into
a plastic bin without risk of melting it.

My routine was to remove the full ashpan and put it down underneath or in
front of the stove, onto the (relatively) cool hearth plinth for 20 mins
or so while making breakfast. Then they were cool enough to be tipped
into
a plastic bin. Then replace ashpan, riddle, top up fuel. Without this
cooling-down step, the ashes would have had to be tipped into a metal
bucket first, which generates quite a bit of dust.

how big was your ashpan?!

Why do you ask? Can't remember exactly. In inches it's something like
7x10x1.5; it has to fit through the small lower door. It needed emptying
only once a day when using phurnacite.

I now live with a 2-oven (pre-1974 "Deluxe") Aga range with water heater.
The ash pan on that is much bigger than the Squirrel's, some 6x14x4 in3,
because it uses more fuel (around 15-20 lbs a day), but still needs emptying
only once a day. I tip that into a metal bucket in the back door vestibule
and quickly close the kitchen door to keep most of the ash dust out. This
bucket holds about 3-4 days' worth of ash.

The Aga ash pan often has the odd red hot chunk of not-fully-burnt fuel in
it even before riddling, so the ash needs to cool in the metal bucket for a
whole day before I empty the bucket into a bin liner.

Tim Watts wrote:

Ronald Raygun ) wibbled on Tuesday 04
January 2011 11:54:

geraldthehamster wrote:

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from?

Local distributors.

Anthracite - DJ Davies of Wales, tonne at a time.

Phurnacite - Fergusson of Scotland, tonne

Both are shipped on a pallette of 40 x 25kg or 50 x 20kg bags and works
out rather less all in (50-70 quid) less than the "local" coal merchants.

Only downside is unloading a pallette but even I can do that in an hour
and bags are handy of you don't have a bunker - pile them up all over the
place whereever's out the way.

Fergusson *is* my local distributor. :-)

I do have a bunker, so get my phurnacite delivered in open 50kg sacks which
they empty into the bunker, and take the sacks away to re-use. It's not a
huge bunker so I can only take 300kg per delivery. At that quantity I'm
currently paying £417 per tonne.

On 1/4/2011 7:58 AM, Jim K wrote:
On Jan 4, 12:43 pm, Ronald
wrote:

Try gloves. :-)

clean pair each time? ;) - coal dust gets everywhere including inside
gloves.


I use cheap disposables for messy jobs like that.

geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Jan, 10:33, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
geraldthehamster wrote:
Thanks (with one obvious exception) for the replies.
I've been sort of offered a Stovax Sheraton in need of refurbishment,
which on the face of it looks plausible if the price is right. I won't
be using a back boiler. I'm intending to use it as a backup to our
bottled gas central heating boiler (no mains gas out here). Next
winter if I can avoid using the boiler so much, maybe it'll cost me
less than the £400 quid I spent on gas in December just in keeping the
house warm.
join the club mate. Bottled gas is however bloody expensive.

Buy oil ant much cheaper these days y'know.

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from? I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a
few tree surgeons. I've considered turning half my garden into an ash
coppice, but from what I've read on the amount of land needed, I'd be
very far from self-sufficiency, though it might make a contribution.
Aye, there's the rub. With what estates do provide wood now running out
on a regular basis, and the smell of woodsmoke a lot more prevalent than
it once was, wood is no longer a cheap fuel.

The average output of land used for biofuel is about 100mW per square
meter. Given you probably need about a KW for a house on average, that's
something like a hectare.



Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I read somewhere recently, in one forum or other, that you;d need
about 10 acres to be completely self-sufficient for a 3-4 bedroom
house.

I would say that is about right.


Fortunately I' not aiming to be self-sufficient. With the space
available I reckon I could grow 100 trees and still have some garden
left, but on (for the sake of argument) 5 year rotation for ash, that
would mean I was only coppicing 20 trees a year - say 100 poles if I
was lucky.


poles don't make very good firewood. Best is mature trees and they take
many years.


Cheers
Richard

On 4 Jan, 15:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Jan, 10:33, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
geraldthehamster wrote:
Thanks (with one obvious exception) for the replies.
I've been sort of offered a Stovax Sheraton in need of refurbishment,
which on the face of it looks plausible if the price is right. I won't
be using a back boiler. I'm intending to use it as a backup to our
bottled gas central heating boiler (no mains gas out here). Next
winter if I can avoid using the boiler so much, maybe it'll cost me
less than the £400 quid I spent on gas in December just in keeping the
house warm.
join the club mate. Bottled gas is however bloody expensive.

Buy oil ant much cheaper these days y'know.

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from? I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a
few tree surgeons. I've considered turning half my garden into an ash
coppice, but from what I've read on the amount of land needed, I'd be
very far from self-sufficiency, though it might make a contribution.
Aye, there's the rub. With what estates do provide wood now running out
on a regular basis, and the smell of woodsmoke a lot more prevalent than
it once was, wood is no longer a cheap fuel.

The average output of land used for biofuel is about 100mW per square
meter. Given you probably need about a KW for a house on average, that's
something like a hectare.

Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I read somewhere recently, in one forum or other, that you;d need
about 10 acres to be completely self-sufficient for a 3-4 bedroom
house.

I would say that is about right.

Fortunately I' not aiming to be self-sufficient. With the space
available I reckon I could grow 100 trees and still have some garden
left, but on (for the sake of argument) 5 year rotation for ash, that
would mean I was only coppicing 20 trees a year - say 100 poles if I
was lucky.

poles don't make very good firewood. Best is mature trees and they take
many years.



Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're right, coppicing as a source of fuel will never catch on.

Cheers
Richard

On Jan 4, 10:17*am, geraldthehamster wrote:
Thanks (with one obvious exception) for the replies.

I've been sort of offered a Stovax Sheraton in need of refurbishment,
which on the face of it looks plausible if the price is right. I won't
be using a back boiler. I'm intending to use it as a backup to our
bottled gas central heating boiler (no mains gas out here). Next
winter if I can avoid using the boiler so much, maybe it'll cost me
less than the £400 quid I spent on gas in December just in keeping the
house warm.

Then there's the question of fuel - where do stove users on the list
get theirs from? I suppose it would be handy to make friends with a
few tree surgeons. I've considered turning half my garden into an ash
coppice, but from what I've read on the amount of land needed, I'd be
very far from self-sufficiency, though it might make a contribution.

Cheers
Richard

I have planted firewood on my ground, it'll be a year or two before
it's ready. I have an estimated four year supply to hand.
Meantime I travel with a bowsaw in the back of my car. I f I see a
fallen branch, it's mine. Builders merchants &c have pallets and
spacers and other scrap timber you can use. Tree surgeons normally cut
up & sell their timber.
As someone else said, it's getting harder to find & more expensive to
buy.

geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Jan, 15:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

poles don't make very good firewood. Best is mature trees and they take
many years.



Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're right, coppicing as a source of fuel will never catch on.

oh, it can, but its a poor source for all but boilers designed for it.

there isn't enough land area for it to make more than a small dent in
energy usage: Its also possible that deforestation causes climatic
shifts as well.

But if the alternative is bottled gas..you probably need a heatpump!

you can get about 100w/sq meter out of that.

Unless they carry on building windmills of course. Then there won't be
any electricity at all :-)

As someone else said, it's getting harder to find & more expensive to
buy.

Our local B&Q has a pile of pallets outside with a sign saying
"Firewood - help yourself"
You could try asking at your local stores.

John

On Jan 4, 2:00 pm, Ronald Raygun
wrote:
Jim K wrote:
On Jan 4, 12:43 pm, Ronald Raygun
wrote:

You should
empty the ashpan *before* riddling, when it will have had 8-12 hours to
cool down from the last riddling.

"cool down" ? inside a 200degC metal box runnning 24/7 as you say?
erm....

Erm what? Would you not agree that 200degC is a lot cooler than red hot?

so what? still too hot to handle without metalware/dust (whatever
colour it is)?

The idea is that when the ashpan comes out of the stove, it should not be
at the temperature of the red hot embers but at the cooler temperature of
the stove itself. That's phase 1 of the coolong down. Phase 2 (described
below) then cools the ashes down further so that they could be dumped into
a plastic bin without risk of melting it.

My routine was to remove the full ashpan and put it down underneath or in
front of the stove, onto the (relatively) cool hearth plinth for 20 mins
or so while making breakfast. Then they were cool enough to be tipped
into
a plastic bin. Then replace ashpan, riddle, top up fuel. Without this
cooling-down step, the ashes would have had to be tipped into a metal
bucket first, which generates quite a bit of dust.

how big was your ashpan?!

Why do you ask?

cos a tiny one will cool down like you say I expect - however a larger
one will take longer.....

Jim K

On 4 Jan, 16:32, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
geraldthehamster wrote:
On 4 Jan, 15:49, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
poles don't make very good firewood. Best is mature trees and they take
many years.

Cheers
Richard- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're right, coppicing as a source of fuel will never catch on.

oh, it can, but its a poor source for all but boilers designed for it.

there isn't enough land area for it to make more than a small dent in
energy usage: Its also possible that deforestation causes climatic
shifts as well.

But if the alternative is bottled gas..you probably need a heatpump!

you can get about 100w/sq meter out of that.

Unless they carry on building windmills of course. Then there won't be
any electricity at all :-)

Coppicing isn't deforestation. Especially if you plant the coppice.
It's entirely carbon neutral.

Cheers
Richard

"geraldthehamster" wrote in message
...


Coppicing isn't deforestation. Especially if you plant the coppice.
It's entirely carbon neutral.

Its not carbon neutral if you use tools, chainsaw fuel, transport to and
from, etc.

Jim K wrote:

On Jan 4, 2:00 pm, Ronald Raygun
wrote:
Jim K wrote:
On Jan 4, 12:43 pm, Ronald Raygun
wrote:

You should
empty the ashpan *before* riddling, when it will have had 8-12 hours
to cool down from the last riddling.

"cool down" ? inside a 200degC metal box runnning 24/7 as you say?
erm....

Erm what? Would you not agree that 200degC is a lot cooler than red hot?

so what? still too hot to handle without metalware/dust (whatever
colour it is)?

My point was that if I take out the ash pan and sit it on the stone hearth,
it stands a better chance of (within 20 minutes) ending up cool enough to
put it into a plastic container without risk of melting it or setting fire
to the wooden floor underneath, if said ash pan contains 200 degree ash
than if it contains red hot ash as it would if you riddled the stove before
taking out the ash pan.

Even if you use a metal bin/bucket so that you could, at a pinch, dump red
hot ash into it without risk of damage, red hot ash is more volatile and
dusty than 200 degree "cool" ash, so there is always an advantage in
riddling just after emptying compared with riddling just before emptying.

my point is that if the OP is encouraged to run "24/7" with a *bigger*
stove than your old one, he will have to consider the supply and
disposal of fuel and waste/ashes and associated crap and filth - *more
so* with coal based solid fuels than wood IME.

Jim K

On 5 Jan, 10:08, Jim K wrote:
my point is that if the OP is encouraged to run "24/7" with a *bigger*
stove than your old one, he will have to consider the supply and
disposal of fuel and waste/ashes and associated crap and filth - *more
so* with coal based solid fuels than wood IME.

Jim K

OP here - not intending to run 24/7, or to use coal-based solid fuels.

Hope this helps this branch of the discussion ;-)

Cheers
Richard

Jim K wrote:

my point is that if the OP is encouraged to run "24/7" with a *bigger*
stove than your old one, he will have to consider the supply and
disposal of fuel and waste/ashes

So what? He will need to consider those things no matter how big or
small a stove he uses. The dodgy practice I described, of letting the
ash pan cool to room temperature for a short while before tipping it
into a plastic bin was not a recommendation (you should always use a
metal bin), it was merely illustrative to amplify the point that it is
important that one's riddling routine should be such as to avoid the
ash pan being full of red hot stuff while it is taken out of the stove.

Even when one tips it into a metal bin, it's better that the ashes
should be at 200 than at 600 degrees C. The hotter the ash, the more
volatile it is, so it will generate more dust whilst in transit to the
bucket. Also, the hotter it is, and the more you tip into the metal
bucket (especially when it is empty), the bucket itself can get hot
enough to make melt/burn marks on the floor.

and associated crap and filth - *more
so* with coal based solid fuels than wood IME.

Agreed, the risk of finding incompletely burnt (and still glowing) bits
sitting in the ash is lower with wood (provided the stove has not been
recently riddled!). At least this doesn't matter much when using a
metal ash bin.

But using wood for a 24/7 stove will produce a greater volume of ash per
day, the stove will tend to need more than one emptying per day, there is
a greater risk of the stove going out overnight, and it needs feeding more
frequently than if you use manufactured smokeless fuel. You need also to
consider the price of fuel, and to provide suitable on-site storage for it,
and for the same amount of energy you produce per day, you need either more
room or more frequent deliveries when your fuel of choice is wood.

The advantage of a multifuel stove is that you can mix and compromise. You
can burn wood while you're spending time in the room, and then top up with
black stuff for overnight.

On Jan 5, 11:14 am, Ronald Raygun
wrote:
Jim K wrote:
my point is that if the OP is encouraged to run "24/7" with a *bigger*
stove than your old one, he will have to consider the supply and
disposal of fuel and waste/ashes

So what? He will need to consider those things no matter how big or
small a stove he uses.

So-- the bigger the ash pan the hotter it will stay for longer?

The dodgy practice I described, of letting the
ash pan cool to room temperature for a short while before tipping it
into a plastic bin was not a recommendation (you should always use a
metal bin), it was merely illustrative to amplify the point that it is
important that one's riddling routine should be such as to avoid the
ash pan being full of red hot stuff while it is taken out of the stove.

Even when one tips it into a metal bin, it's better that the ashes
should be at 200 than at 600 degrees C. The hotter the ash, the more
volatile it is, so it will generate more dust whilst in transit to the
bucket. Also, the hotter it is, and the more you tip into the metal
bucket (especially when it is empty), the bucket itself can get hot
enough to make melt/burn marks on the floor.

so keep it on the hearth til you sling it out?

NB I don't recall "less" dust from colder ashes.... but then I'm not
running 24/7...

and associated crap and filth - *more
so* with coal based solid fuels than wood IME.

Agreed, the risk of finding incompletely burnt (and still glowing) bits
sitting in the ash is lower with wood (provided the stove has not been
recently riddled!). At least this doesn't matter much when using a
metal ash bin.

of course we know we don;t riddle wood fires very often....they need
the bed of ash and only air from the top...

But using wood for a 24/7 stove will produce a greater volume of ash per
day, the stove will tend to need more than one emptying per day, there is
a greater risk of the stove going out overnight, and it needs feeding more
frequently than if you use manufactured smokeless fuel.

.... not IME no.

You need also to
consider the price of fuel, and to provide suitable on-site storage for it,
and for the same amount of energy you produce per day, you need either more
room or more frequent deliveries when your fuel of choice is wood.

indeed

The advantage of a multifuel stove is that you can mix and compromise. You
can burn wood while you're spending time in the room, and then top up with
black stuff for overnight.

but only after you've emptied all the woodash so the coal can burn
with air from the bottom as intended ;)

Jim K