Hi,

I bought a 220ml can of pipe freezing spray from tool station:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plum.../sd2711/p42240

Pros: quick and easy, saves draining down pipes
Cons: expensive, especially for 22mm pipes; draining down costs
nothing to do (or does it? If you drain the CH and don't recycle the
water, you would need to buy new inhibitor*)

The can says you need to use one small can to freeze a 15mm pipe and
two small cans for a 22mm pipe.

They also sell a big can. I was wondering: one big can is cheaper than
two little cans; is there a clever way to use half the big can at a
time? If working on CH you might need to freeze two pipes: flow and
return. How could you estimate when you had used half the can on one
and use the remaining half on the other? Or is it just best to pay the
extra and buy two little cans?

Tool station are usually excellent on price but I think they are not
the best price for these. I see other places selling "freezer spray"
but some of it is advertised as for cooling electronics. Is it the
same stuff or must you buy the plumbing type for plumbing jobs?

TIA


*In anticipation of the post about inhibitor, I realise you would want
to replace it with fresh every couple of years anyway.

On 4 Oct, 15:17, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I bought a 220ml can of pipe freezing spray from tool station:http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plum...eezer+Spray+22...

Pros: quick and easy, saves draining down pipes
Cons: expensive, especially for 22mm pipes; draining down costs
nothing to do (or does it? If you drain the CH and don't recycle the
water, you would need to buy new inhibitor*)

The can says you need to use one small can to freeze a 15mm pipe and
two small cans for a 22mm pipe.

all depends how long you want to stop the flow for... i have used
these sorts of things in the past and for what I wanted to do, have
*never* used a whole can of any size on one 15mm pipe - so take that
with a pinch of salt ;)


They also sell a big can. I was wondering: one big can is cheaper than
two little cans; is there a clever way to use half the big can at a
time?

just stop squirting it? it's not like expanding foam i.e. once you
start you have to finish....


If working on CH you might need to freeze two pipes: flow and
return. How could you estimate when you had used half the can on one
and use the remaining half on the other?

if necessary (see above) - weigh it?

Jim K

Weigh the full can. Then use it and weigh again, and when you are a few
grams above half the weight that you first had, you have used about half the
freezer, and allowed for the weight of the can. Someone once told me that
they used industrial chewing gum removal freezer as electronic freezer and
that it was much cheaper. Electronics freezer used to be quite cheap, but is
now expensive. I wonder if it's all actually the same stuff ? Electronics
freezer claims to be to -50 deg C. What's the figure for pipe freezer ? I
thought I had some left in the garage, but I must have used it, so can't
check if it says on the can.

Arfa

"Fred" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I bought a 220ml can of pipe freezing spray from tool station:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plum.../sd2711/p42240

Pros: quick and easy, saves draining down pipes
Cons: expensive, especially for 22mm pipes; draining down costs
nothing to do (or does it? If you drain the CH and don't recycle the
water, you would need to buy new inhibitor*)

The can says you need to use one small can to freeze a 15mm pipe and
two small cans for a 22mm pipe.

They also sell a big can. I was wondering: one big can is cheaper than
two little cans; is there a clever way to use half the big can at a
time? If working on CH you might need to freeze two pipes: flow and
return. How could you estimate when you had used half the can on one
and use the remaining half on the other? Or is it just best to pay the
extra and buy two little cans?

Tool station are usually excellent on price but I think they are not
the best price for these. I see other places selling "freezer spray"
but some of it is advertised as for cooling electronics. Is it the
same stuff or must you buy the plumbing type for plumbing jobs?

TIA


*In anticipation of the post about inhibitor, I realise you would want
to replace it with fresh every couple of years anyway.

Fred wrote:

I bought a 220ml can of pipe freezing spray from tool station:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plum...+Spray+220ml/d
20/sd2711/p42240

Pros: quick and easy, saves draining down pipes
Cons: expensive, especially for 22mm pipes; draining down costs
nothing to do (or does it? If you drain the CH and don't recycle the
water, you would need to buy new inhibitor*)

The biggest gain is in time. I had to change a downstairs radiator and
pipework in a 3 storey house. I could either wait the 15 mins or so for
it to drain down fully then cut the pipes, fit the new valves, then
refill, and drain/test every raditaor in the house. 1.5 hours minimum.
Also with the added hassle of getting to every radiator in the house -
it is quite common for one end to be stuck behind a wardrobe, or behind
so much rubbish that it is 10 minutes to clear a space to get access to
the valve.
Or take a chance, cut the pipe while full, and quickly slip on a
compression isolator valve and hope it doesnt leak too much. 5 minutes,
Pretty good chance of a leak, especially over walls.
Or, freeze the pipe, and do it with relative ease.Takes maybe half an
hour start to finish. Cost £8 for the one-off kit.

I froze it, with little fuss, and saved at least an hour compared to
draining off.

The can says you need to use one small can to freeze a 15mm pipe and
two small cans for a 22mm pipe.

If you are careful, and quick, one can will do a 22mm pipe or 2 x 15mm
pipes. I did it a few weeks ago on the above 2x15mm central heating
radiator pipes that needed to be changed. Didnt leak at all.

Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On Mon, 04 Oct 2010 15:17:07 +0100, Fred wrote:
Hi,

I bought a 220ml can of pipe freezing spray from tool station:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plum.../sd2711/p42240

Pros: quick and easy, saves draining down pipes
Cons: expensive, especially for 22mm pipes; draining down costs
nothing to do (or does it? If you drain the CH and don't recycle the
water, you would need to buy new inhibitor*)

The can says you need to use one small can to freeze a 15mm pipe and
two small cans for a 22mm pipe.

They also sell a big can. I was wondering: one big can is cheaper than
two little cans; is there a clever way to use half the big can at a
time? If working on CH you might need to freeze two pipes: flow and
return. How could you estimate when you had used half the can on one
and use the remaining half on the other? Or is it just best to pay the
extra and buy two little cans?

Tool station are usually excellent on price but I think they are not
the best price for these. I see other places selling "freezer spray"
but some of it is advertised as for cooling electronics. Is it the
same stuff or must you buy the plumbing type for plumbing jobs?

TIA


*In anticipation of the post about inhibitor, I realise you would want
to replace it with fresh every couple of years anyway.

When I've used pipe freezer before (I can't remember the supplier - could've
been Toolstation) I've always been aware that once you've started, you've
got to finish. If the job takes longer than you expected, or you didn't
use enough freezer to start with then the pipe can start to thaw out. if
that happens you don't have many choices! As a consequence, if I thought
I'd need 2 cans for a job I'd make sure I had three. Likewise, my natural
caution tells me not to skimp on this stuff. Touse what it says, rather than
the amount I think might do the job. So I tend to use whole cans and make
sure I've got all the bits I need before starting.
As a DIY-er the time element is less important, but I could imaging that
when a pro puts an hourly rate on their time, this stuff would save money
if it avoids the time needed to drain down the CH before starting.

--
http://www.thisreallyismyhost.99k.or...1108245249.php

When I've used pipe freezer before (I can't remember the supplier - could've
been Toolstation) I've always been aware that once you've started, you've
got to finish. If the job takes longer than you expected, or you didn't
use enough freezer to start with then the pipe can start to thaw out. if
that happens you don't have many choices! As a consequence, if I thought
I'd need 2 cans for a job I'd make sure I had three. Likewise, my natural
caution tells me not to skimp on this stuff. Touse what it says, rather than
the amount I think might do the job. So I tend to use whole cans and make
sure I've got all the bits I need before starting.
As a DIY-er the time element is less important, but I could imaging that
when a pro puts an hourly rate on their time, this stuff would save money
if it avoids the time needed to drain down the CH before starting.


Course a bag of frozen peas wrapped around the joint might eke out the
frozen time a bit..
--
Tony Sayer

tony sayer wrote:
When I've used pipe freezer before (I can't remember the supplier -
could've been Toolstation) I've always been aware that once you've
started, you've got to finish. If the job takes longer than you
expected, or you didn't
use enough freezer to start with then the pipe can start to thaw
out. if that happens you don't have many choices! As a consequence,
if I thought
I'd need 2 cans for a job I'd make sure I had three. Likewise, my
natural caution tells me not to skimp on this stuff. Touse what it
says, rather than the amount I think might do the job. So I tend to
use whole cans and make sure I've got all the bits I need before
starting.
As a DIY-er the time element is less important, but I could imaging
that when a pro puts an hourly rate on their time, this stuff would
save money
if it avoids the time needed to drain down the CH before starting.


Course a bag of frozen peas wrapped around the joint might eke out the
frozen time a bit..

You only need enough time to get a service valve on the pipe :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"The Medway Handyman" wrote in message
...
tony sayer wrote:
When I've used pipe freezer before (I can't remember the supplier -
could've been Toolstation) I've always been aware that once you've
started, you've got to finish. If the job takes longer than you
expected, or you didn't
use enough freezer to start with then the pipe can start to thaw
out. if that happens you don't have many choices! As a consequence,
if I thought
I'd need 2 cans for a job I'd make sure I had three. Likewise, my
natural caution tells me not to skimp on this stuff. Touse what it
says, rather than the amount I think might do the job. So I tend to
use whole cans and make sure I've got all the bits I need before
starting.
As a DIY-er the time element is less important, but I could imaging
that when a pro puts an hourly rate on their time, this stuff would
save money
if it avoids the time needed to drain down the CH before starting.


Course a bag of frozen peas wrapped around the joint might eke out the
frozen time a bit..

You only need enough time to get a service valve on the pipe :-)


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

One can also hire an electric type of pipe freezin kit, which are very good
on larger jobs, have used them numerous times
when a spray can just wouldn't cut the mustard so to speak.

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

One can also hire an electric type of pipe freezin kit, which are very
good on larger jobs, have used them numerous times
when a spray can just wouldn't cut the mustard so to speak.

And there are ones which use a carbon dioxide cylinder (rather like a fire
extinguisher) feeding a cuff.

Got any friends around a decent science lab? Liquid nitrogen works a treat
provided you are used to handling it.

On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 18:27:40 +0100, The Medway Handyman wrote:

You only need enough time to get a service valve on the pipe :-)

Or a push fit stop end, make sure you get ones that are easy to
release.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 4 Oct, 23:07, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 18:27:40 +0100, The Medway Handyman wrote:
You only need enough time to get a service valve on the pipe :-)

Or a push fit stop end, make sure you get ones that are easy to
release.

? and a bucket to catch the flow when you do? ;)

Jim K

On Tue, 5 Oct 2010 00:15:43 -0700 (PDT), Jim K wrote:

You only need enough time to get a service valve on the pipe :-)

Or a push fit stop end, make sure you get ones that are easy to
release.

? and a bucket to catch the flow when you do? ;)

Same applies to removing the temporary service valve...

Not quite sure what the problem is though. Pressurised system release
the pressure, reseal, nothing will come out. Vented system use bungs
in the feed and expansion pipes, nothing comes out. "Nothing" being
only very little provided there are no other places in the system air
can get in.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On 5 Oct, 09:14, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
On Tue, 5 Oct 2010 00:15:43 -0700 (PDT), Jim K wrote:
You only need enough time to get a service valve on the pipe :-)

Or a push fit stop end, make sure you get ones that are easy to
release.

? and a bucket to catch the flow when you do? ;)

Same applies to removing the temporary service valve...

well no-one said temporary.....

Not quite sure what the problem is though. Pressurised system release
the pressure, reseal, nothing will come out. Vented system use bungs
in the feed and expansion pipes, nothing comes out. "Nothing" being
only very little provided there are no other places in the system air
can get in.

agreed

Jim K

Arfa Daily wrote:
Weigh the full can. Then use it and weigh again, and when you are a few
grams above half the weight that you first had, you have used about half
the freezer, and allowed for the weight of the can. Someone once told me
that they used industrial chewing gum removal freezer as electronic
freezer and that it was much cheaper. Electronics freezer used to be
quite cheap, but is now expensive. I wonder if it's all actually the
same stuff ? Electronics freezer claims to be to -50 deg C. What's the
figure for pipe freezer ? I thought I had some left in the garage, but I
must have used it, so can't check if it says on the can.

Pipe freezing spray and electronic freezer and a product called "air
brush air duster" by servisol, (used to blow the dust off your keyboard
etc)is usually R134a, The refrigerant used in car air conditioners, the
same stuff that the refrigeration people say that is so dangerous that
you get fined thousands if you vent it to atmosphere from your car air con.



Arfa

"Fred" wrote in message
...
Hi,

I bought a 220ml can of pipe freezing spray from tool station:
http://www.toolstation.com/shop/Plum.../sd2711/p42240


Pros: quick and easy, saves draining down pipes
Cons: expensive, especially for 22mm pipes; draining down costs
nothing to do (or does it? If you drain the CH and don't recycle the
water, you would need to buy new inhibitor*)

The can says you need to use one small can to freeze a 15mm pipe and
two small cans for a 22mm pipe.

They also sell a big can. I was wondering: one big can is cheaper than
two little cans; is there a clever way to use half the big can at a
time? If working on CH you might need to freeze two pipes: flow and
return. How could you estimate when you had used half the can on one
and use the remaining half on the other? Or is it just best to pay the
extra and buy two little cans?

Tool station are usually excellent on price but I think they are not
the best price for these. I see other places selling "freezer spray"
but some of it is advertised as for cooling electronics. Is it the
same stuff or must you buy the plumbing type for plumbing jobs?

TIA


*In anticipation of the post about inhibitor, I realise you would want
to replace it with fresh every couple of years anyway.

On 05/10/2010 09:14, Dave Liquorice wrote:


Same applies to removing the temporary service valve...


You may not need to - you can just leave it in the circuit.


Not quite sure what the problem is though. Pressurised system release
the pressure, reseal, nothing will come out. Vented system use bungs
in the feed and expansion pipes, nothing comes out. "Nothing" being
only very little provided there are no other places in the system air
can get in.

Agreed. I've got full bore ball valves on the flow and return of my CH
system, and I can break into it at any single point (like to replace a
radiator valve[1]) with virtually no spillage.

[1] This would require the rad to be drained first, of course - but
again, with drain-off lockshield valves, this can easily be done with no
spillage
--
Cheers,
Roger
____________
Please reply to Newsgroup. Whilst email address is valid, it is seldom
checked.

On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 07:43:02 -0700 (PDT), Jim K
wrote:

i have used
these sorts of things in the past and for what I wanted to do, have
*never* used a whole can of any size on one 15mm pipe - so take that
with a pinch of salt ;)

IIRC the can also says to wait 15 minutes for the pipe to freeze
completely. When I used the can it seemed to me that it had frozen
before I had used all the can and long before the 15 minutes but of
course, I didn't have x-ray vision to see the middle of the pipe so I
did as I was told, just to be sure. I may have skimped on the 15
minutes, I can't quite remember.

I suppose it depends what pipe you are freezing? Surely a cold water
pipe at room temperature would require less freezing than a hot pipe
that needs to be cooled from 70C?

The Bes web site says two cans are needed for plastic pipe and yet it
was a plastic pipe I froze with only one can. Perhaps they are selling
a different make of spray? I can see that a copper pipe might conduct
heat (or cold) better than a plastic one, which might take more
cooling. But as I said, I managed to freeze a plastic pipe with one
can, so I am tempted to agree with your pinch of salt statement.

The problem is that if you do anything different, you don't know until
you've cut the pipe whether the spray has worked! I suppose in summary
"YMMV"!

On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 22:21:10 +1000, F Murtz
wrote:

Pipe freezing spray and electronic freezer and a product called "air
brush air duster" by servisol, (used to blow the dust off your keyboard
etc)is usually R134a, The refrigerant used in car air conditioners, the
same stuff that the refrigeration people say that is so dangerous that
you get fined thousands if you vent it to atmosphere from your car air con.

I never knew that air duster was refrigerant. I always assumed it was
compressed air until I read the can said flammable and then I assumed
it was butane, as that seems to be used in all aerosols. Thinking
about it though, it wouldn't be sensible using butane to dust a hot
surface! I wonder why refrigerant is used? Is it very cheap? It seems
a bit wasteful.

A couple of years ago Wickes and B&Q were selling split unit air
conditioners. I always fancied buying one but the "summer" always
finished before I got round to it. I would have liked one when we had
our hot fortnight this year but never saw any. I did think it was
strange no-one was selling them. That explains why. Thanks.

On Thu, 07 Oct 2010 16:05:01 +0100, Fred
wrote:


I never knew that air duster was refrigerant. I always assumed it was
compressed air until I read the can said flammable and then I assumed
it was butane, as that seems to be used in all aerosols.

I have a tin of Servisol Aero Duster labelled as (Non-flammable), but
it warns you that 10% of the contents by mass _are_ flammable.

Hmmm. 8-)

--
Frank Erskine

Fred wrote:
On Tue, 05 Oct 2010 22:21:10 +1000, F
wrote:

Pipe freezing spray and electronic freezer and a product called "air
brush air duster" by servisol, (used to blow the dust off your keyboard
etc)is usually R134a, The refrigerant used in car air conditioners, the
same stuff that the refrigeration people say that is so dangerous that
you get fined thousands if you vent it to atmosphere from your car air con.

I never knew that air duster was refrigerant. I always assumed it was
compressed air until I read the can said flammable and then I assumed
it was butane, as that seems to be used in all aerosols. Thinking
about it though, it wouldn't be sensible using butane to dust a hot
surface! I wonder why refrigerant is used? Is it very cheap? It seems
a bit wasteful.

A couple of years ago Wickes and B&Q were selling split unit air
conditioners. I always fancied buying one but the "summer" always
finished before I got round to it. I would have liked one when we had
our hot fortnight this year but never saw any. I did think it was
strange no-one was selling them. That explains why. Thanks.

The split unit probably uses R22 which is a different gas.This is
getting off topic but a big secret that you are "not supposed to know"
is that they will run on propane (r290)which in some countries can be
used by people without a refrigeration license.

On 7 Oct, 16:01, Fred wrote:
On Mon, 4 Oct 2010 07:43:02 -0700 (PDT), Jim K
wrote:

i have used
these sorts of things in the past and for what I wanted to do, have
*never* used a whole can of any size on one 15mm pipe - so take that
with a pinch of salt ;)

IIRC the can also says to wait 15 minutes for the pipe to freeze
completely. When I used the can it seemed to me that it had frozen
before I had used all the can and long before the 15 minutes but of
course, I didn't have x-ray vision to see the middle of the pipe so I
did as I was told, just to be sure. I may have skimped on the 15
minutes, I can't quite remember.

I suppose it depends what pipe you are freezing? Surely a cold water
pipe at room temperature would require less freezing than a hot pipe
that needs to be cooled from 70C?

The Bes web site says two cans are needed for plastic pipe and yet it
was a plastic pipe I froze with only one can. Perhaps they are selling
a different make of spray? I can see that a copper pipe might conduct
heat (or cold) better than a plastic one, which might take more
cooling. But as I said, I managed to freeze a plastic pipe with one
can, so I am tempted to agree with your pinch of salt statement.

The problem is that if you do anything different, you don't know until
you've cut the pipe whether the spray has worked! I suppose in summary
"YMMV"!

From memory there was always a means to check whether the pipe was in
fact sufficiently frozen up - a bleed valve, tap or some other "test"
that could be applied to monitor progress.

Lots of corporate arse covering by retailers and lots of marketing
"skill" by manufacturers muddy the true waters!

Jim K

In message , F Murtz
wrote

Pipe freezing spray and electronic freezer and a product called "air
brush air duster" by servisol, (used to blow the dust off your keyboard
etc)is usually R134a, The refrigerant used in car air conditioners, the
same stuff that the refrigeration people say that is so dangerous that
you get fined thousands if you vent it to atmosphere from your car air con.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/355298.pdf
[quote]
"Not regarded as dangerous for the environment.
["/quote]


--
Alan
news2009 {at} admac {dot} myzen {dot} co {dot} uk

Alan wrote:
In message , F Murtz
wrote

Pipe freezing spray and electronic freezer and a product called "air
brush air duster" by servisol, (used to blow the dust off your
keyboard etc)is usually R134a, The refrigerant used in car air
conditioners, the same stuff that the refrigeration people say that is
so dangerous that you get fined thousands if you vent it to atmosphere
from your car air con.

http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/355298.pdf
[quote]
"Not regarded as dangerous for the environment.
["/quote]


Is that why they are going to ban its use soon in car air conditioners?
It does not seem to be dangerous to humans as it is used as a propellant
in some asthma sprays.