Found this in the garden, looks like something used to key 2 bricks
together, but why is there a twist in the middle?

http://www.dalecu.co.uk/images/dscf0016.jpg


Dave

"Dave" wrote in message ...
Found this in the garden, looks like something used to key 2 bricks
together, but why is there a twist in the middle?

http://www.dalecu.co.uk/images/dscf0016.jpg


Dave


Its a vertical twist tie used to tie cavity and external walls.

They're laid on a slight slope. The twist is so that any water
or built up moisture or condensation drips off the twist in the
middle of the tie rather than running down to the end and soaking the
cavity wall.

michael adams

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 12:37:44 +0000, Dave wrote:

Found this in the garden, looks like something used to key 2 bricks
together, but why is there a twist in the middle?

http://www.dalecu.co.uk/images/dscf0016.jpg



It's a wall tie. The twist is so that any condensation or moisture
leakage drips down the centre of the cavity rather than reaching the
interior wall.

--
Mick (Working in a M$-free zone!)
Web: http://www.nascom.info
Filtering everything posted from googlegroups to kill spam.

Dave wrote:
Found this in the garden, looks like something used to key 2 bricks
together, but why is there a twist in the middle?

http://www.dalecu.co.uk/images/dscf0016.jpg


Dave
It is indeed a brick tie. goes across a cavity IIRC.

Never did understand why the twist.

On Sun, 04 Jul 2010 14:07:17 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

Dave wrote:
Found this in the garden, looks like something used to key 2 bricks
together, but why is there a twist in the middle?

http://www.dalecu.co.uk/images/dscf0016.jpg


Dave
It is indeed a brick tie. goes across a cavity IIRC.

Never did understand why the twist.


The previous posts explain the twist.

Thanks for all the replies.

Dave

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Dave wrote:
Found this in the garden, looks like something used to key 2 bricks
together, but why is there a twist in the middle?

http://www.dalecu.co.uk/images/dscf0016.jpg


Dave
It is indeed a brick tie. goes across a cavity IIRC.

Never did understand why the twist.

The twist is so that whichever way up it gets put in, there's a low point in
the centre for moisture to drip off.
Prior to this, they had just a 'bump', and they were supposed to be laid
with the bottom of the bump at the underside, but dozy bricklayers often put
them in with the bump at the top.

The one in the picture is called a fishtail brick tie, these rust terribly
and push courses apart, usually every 6 courses and often near the upper
parts of the building.
Once they start going, they need isolating and new replacement ties going
in, they are isolated by chipping all around each one (found by metal
detector) and a plastic sleeve containing grease is slid over the end of
each one to prevent further corrosion, new ties are put through the face of
the brick rather than the beds.

Galvanised ones were used after this but they too were shunned in favour of
stainless steel and even plastic ones, which had a short lived popularity in
the early 90's.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

On Sun, 4 Jul 2010 14:29:26 +0100, "Phil L"
wrote:


The twist is so that whichever way up it gets put in, there's a low point in
the centre for moisture to drip off.
Prior to this, they had just a 'bump', and they were supposed to be laid
with the bottom of the bump at the underside, but dozy bricklayers often put
them in with the bump at the top.

The one in the picture is called a fishtail brick tie, these rust terribly
and push courses apart, usually every 6 courses and often near the upper
parts of the building.
Once they start going, they need isolating and new replacement ties going
in, they are isolated by chipping all around each one (found by metal
detector) and a plastic sleeve containing grease is slid over the end of
each one to prevent further corrosion, new ties are put through the face of
the brick rather than the beds.

Galvanised ones were used after this but they too were shunned in favour of
stainless steel and even plastic ones, which had a short lived popularity in
the early 90's.


The things you learn on this group!

Dave

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember (Dave) saying
something like:

Found this in the garden, looks like something used to key 2 bricks
together, but why is there a twist in the middle?

http://www.dalecu.co.uk/images/dscf0016.jpg

A cavity wall-tie, the twist is for moisture to drip off.

Phil L wrote:

Galvanised ones were used after this but they too were shunned in favour of
stainless steel and even plastic ones, which had a short lived popularity in
the early 90's.


It's the galvanised ones I grew up with. Are _any_ of them good long term?

Andy

Andy Champ wrote:
Phil L wrote:

Galvanised ones were used after this but they too were shunned in
favour of stainless steel and even plastic ones, which had a short
lived popularity in the early 90's.


It's the galvanised ones I grew up with. Are _any_ of them good long term?

Andy
Houses in the 50s were built with em, Houses in the 50s still standing :-)

In article ,
Tim Streater writes:
In article ,
Andy Champ wrote:

Phil L wrote:

Galvanised ones were used after this but they too were shunned in favour of
stainless steel and even plastic ones, which had a short lived popularity
in
the early 90's.


It's the galvanised ones I grew up with. Are _any_ of them good long term?

Yerrss. Our house was built 30s, when we had DG recently I checked them
far as I could see into the cavity as each old winder was took out, they
all seemed in good nick, orright?

The damage happens to the part embedded in the outside wall.
If that starts rusting, it swells and can push the bricks apart
at the mortar lines with great force.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Andy Champ wrote:
Phil L wrote:

Galvanised ones were used after this but they too were shunned in
favour of stainless steel and even plastic ones, which had a short
lived popularity in the early 90's.


It's the galvanised ones I grew up with. Are _any_ of them good long
term?
Andy

They all do exactly what they are supposed to do, and that is to tie the two
skins of brickwork together, or to keep them apart, whichever way you want
to look at it.

The only problems with any of them are sulphur attack, IE rusting and
forcing the brickwork apart.
Stainless ones will never do this and so they are obviously the best ties to
use.
Galvanised ones are the next best, but these were laid to rest by someone
sitting in an office somewhere who had nothing better to do than have
idiotic brainwaves....the story goes along these lines; the bricklayers
often rattle down the ties with their trowel, and this could chip off the
zinc, leaving the ties unprotected and so they were banned.
IME I've only ever seen brickies hit the ties in the centre, IE above the
twist and so if any damage did occur, it wouldn't be near any mortar beds it
would be in the centre of the cavity, and even then in only about 1% of the
ties.
I have them in my house, as do all the other properties around here, they
are all 50 - 60 years old and none of them have shown any signs of failure
or sulphur attack

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
Phil L wrote:

Galvanised ones were used after this but they too were shunned in
favour of stainless steel and even plastic ones, which had a short
lived popularity in the early 90's.


It's the galvanised ones I grew up with. Are _any_ of them good
long term? Andy
Houses in the 50s were built with em, Houses in the 50s still
standing :-)

Yep and they probably will be for another 100 years or so.
Galvanised ones aren't sold anymore AFAIK due to them not meeting building
regs, although there are probably several hundred million still knocking
about in people's sheds etc.
Stainless ones are fairly cheap nowadays anyway

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Phil L wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
Phil L wrote:

Galvanised ones were used after this but they too were shunned in
favour of stainless steel and even plastic ones, which had a short
lived popularity in the early 90's.


It's the galvanised ones I grew up with. Are _any_ of them good
long term? Andy
Houses in the 50s were built with em, Houses in the 50s still
standing :-)

Yep and they probably will be for another 100 years or so.
Galvanised ones aren't sold anymore AFAIK due to them not meeting building
regs, although there are probably several hundred million still knocking
about in people's sheds etc.
Stainless ones are fairly cheap nowadays anyway

The ties in my house built in 1925 are starting to fail. Main problem is
that the tails are swelling with rust and forcing the bricks apart.
The problem is exacerbated by high porosity handmade bricks.
Lime mortar was used in those days so the wall will have to be rebuilt
in the next few years. I've no idea if they are galvanised or plain
steel from that era. Still 85 years is not too bad!

Bob

On 05/07/2010 15:45, Bob Minchin wrote:
The ties in my house built in 1925 are starting to fail. Main problem is
that the tails are swelling with rust and forcing the bricks apart.
The problem is exacerbated by high porosity handmade bricks.
Lime mortar was used in those days so the wall will have to be rebuilt
in the next few years. I've no idea if they are galvanised or plain
steel from that era. Still 85 years is not too bad!

We had a similar problem with our 1927 house - porous bricks, lime
mortar and ties which appear to have been galvanised originally but
which were rusting to bits.

We had a company install stainless wall ties over all the external walls
by drilling through the bricks, they then dug out the lime mortar around
the ends of the ties and put a sheath around them, repointing as necessary.

Cost in the region of 4 grand.

Phil L wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
Phil L wrote:
Galvanised ones were used after this but they too were shunned in
favour of stainless steel and even plastic ones, which had a short
lived popularity in the early 90's.

It's the galvanised ones I grew up with. Are _any_ of them good long
term?
Andy

They all do exactly what they are supposed to do, and that is to tie the two
skins of brickwork together, or to keep them apart, whichever way you want
to look at it.

The only problems with any of them are sulphur attack, IE rusting and
forcing the brickwork apart.
Stainless ones will never do this and so they are obviously the best ties to
use.
Galvanised ones are the next best, but these were laid to rest by someone
sitting in an office somewhere who had nothing better to do than have
idiotic brainwaves....the story goes along these lines; the bricklayers
often rattle down the ties with their trowel, and this could chip off the
zinc, leaving the ties unprotected and so they were banned.
IME I've only ever seen brickies hit the ties in the centre, IE above the
twist and so if any damage did occur, it wouldn't be near any mortar beds it
would be in the centre of the cavity, and even then in only about 1% of the
ties.
I have them in my house, as do all the other properties around here, they
are all 50 - 60 years old and none of them have shown any signs of failure
or sulphur attack

No. walls are designed mainly to not get soaking wet.

On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:04:52 +0100, Phil L wrote:

Galvanised ones are the next best, but these were laid to rest by
someone sitting in an office somewhere who had nothing better to do than
have idiotic brainwaves....the story goes along these lines; the
bricklayers often rattle down the ties with their trowel, and this could
chip off the zinc, leaving the ties unprotected and so they were banned.
IME I've only ever seen brickies hit the ties in the centre, IE above
the twist and so if any damage did occur, it wouldn't be near any mortar
beds it would be in the centre of the cavity, and even then in only
about 1% of the ties.

I was always told that the whole point of galvanising was that it didn't
actually matter if the coating wasn't continuous.

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Jim wrote:
On 05/07/2010 15:45, Bob Minchin wrote:
The ties in my house built in 1925 are starting to fail. Main
problem is that the tails are swelling with rust and forcing the
bricks apart. The problem is exacerbated by high porosity handmade
bricks.
Lime mortar was used in those days so the wall will have to be
rebuilt in the next few years. I've no idea if they are galvanised
or plain steel from that era. Still 85 years is not too bad!

We had a similar problem with our 1927 house - porous bricks, lime
mortar and ties which appear to have been galvanised originally but
which were rusting to bits.

We had a company install stainless wall ties over all the external
walls by drilling through the bricks, they then dug out the lime
mortar around the ends of the ties and put a sheath around them,
repointing as necessary.
Cost in the region of 4 grand.

And this job would have made a perfect DIY project and saved you thousands.

You can buy all the materials you need online or from BM's and hire metal
detector, SDS drill and thin chisel bit.
One man could do an average semi in a week and total cost of materials, tool
hire etc £500, and £300 of that would be for new SS ties!

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


No. walls are designed mainly to not get soaking wet.

? ? ?

A combination of wind and rain will see all walls get soaking wet from time
to time, regardless of which way they're facing.

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:04:52 +0100, Phil L wrote:

Galvanised ones are the next best, but these were laid to rest by
someone sitting in an office somewhere who had nothing better to do
than have idiotic brainwaves....the story goes along these lines; the
bricklayers often rattle down the ties with their trowel, and this
could chip off the zinc, leaving the ties unprotected and so they
were banned. IME I've only ever seen brickies hit the ties in the
centre, IE above the twist and so if any damage did occur, it
wouldn't be near any mortar beds it would be in the centre of the
cavity, and even then in only about 1% of the ties.

I was always told that the whole point of galvanising was that it
didn't actually matter if the coating wasn't continuous.

me too, but that's jobsworth's for you, they've nothing better to do than
sit around making up ridiculous rules.

It's like the water bylaw that states your shower hose must go through a
ring on the riser rail, apparently this is so that you can't leave the
shower head in a bathful of dirty water and switched on, when someone
further down the street could turn the water supply off, and in theory, the
shower head could siphon the dirty bathwater into the mains pipes!! - how
many times has that ever happened? answer: never, but there's a possibility
it could and so it came into force, bearing this in mind, I am going to
paint, 'don't crash here' on my roof to warn passing pilots and UFO's not to
do their dirty buisness on my house :-)

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

On 05/07/2010 17:05, Huge wrote:
On 2010-07-05, Phil wrote:
Jim wrote:

We had a company install stainless wall ties over all the external
walls by drilling through the bricks, they then dug out the lime
mortar around the ends of the ties and put a sheath around them,
repointing as necessary.
Cost in the region of 4 grand.

And this job would have made a perfect DIY project and saved you thousands.

You can buy all the materials you need online or from BM's and hire metal
detector, SDS drill and thin chisel bit.
One man could do an average semi in a week and total cost of materials, tool
hire etc£500, and £300 of that would be for new SS ties!

Yes, but the insurance compnay wouldn't pay for that. )

Indeed. Our mortgage was contingent on having a nice warranty-backed
certificate.

On 5 July, 15:45, Bob Minchin
wrote:
Phil L wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Andy Champ wrote:
Phil L wrote:

Galvanised ones were used after this but they too were shunned in
favour of stainless steel and even plastic ones, which had a short
lived popularity in the early 90's.

It's the galvanised ones I grew up with. *Are _any_ of them good
long term? Andy
Houses in the 50s were built with em, Houses in the 50s still
standing :-)

Yep and they probably will be for another 100 years or so.
Galvanised ones aren't sold anymore AFAIK due to them not meeting building
regs, although there are probably several hundred million still knocking
about in people's sheds etc.
Stainless ones are fairly cheap nowadays anyway

The ties in my house built in 1925 are starting to fail. Main problem is
that the tails are swelling with rust and forcing the bricks apart.
The problem is exacerbated by high porosity handmade bricks.
Lime mortar was used in those days so the wall will have to be rebuilt
in the next few years. I've no idea if they are galvanised or plain
steel from that era. Still 85 years is not too bad!

Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I once knocked a wall down, I should think it was Victorian. The wall
ties were all cast bronze, the drip was formed with a "bump" of about
35mm. They too had fish tails. They were in absolutely perfect
condition, just slightly green.

I think the wire ties are fairly suspect. Lots from the 50's and 60's
failing now. At least they don't seem to force the brickwork apart.
An alternative to the post fix wall ties is cavity wall foam
insulation. Glues the two halves together. Allegedly. We'll see.

Huge wrote:
On 2010-07-05, Phil wrote:
Jim wrote:

We had a company install stainless wall ties over all the external
walls by drilling through the bricks, they then dug out the lime
mortar around the ends of the ties and put a sheath around them,
repointing as necessary.
Cost in the region of 4 grand.

And this job would have made a perfect DIY project and saved you thousands.

You can buy all the materials you need online or from BM's and hire metal
detector, SDS drill and thin chisel bit.
One man could do an average semi in a week and total cost of materials, tool
hire etc£500, and £300 of that would be for new SS ties!

Yes, but the insurance compnay wouldn't pay for that. )


Is the failure of wall ties likely to be covered by a 'normal' house
buildings insurance?
There is no mortgage co involved and we have a very low incidence of
claims (3 minor ones in 28 years)
Bob

Bob Eager wrote:
On Mon, 05 Jul 2010 14:04:52 +0100, Phil L wrote:

Galvanised ones are the next best, but these were laid to rest by
someone sitting in an office somewhere who had nothing better to do than
have idiotic brainwaves....the story goes along these lines; the
bricklayers often rattle down the ties with their trowel, and this could
chip off the zinc, leaving the ties unprotected and so they were banned.
IME I've only ever seen brickies hit the ties in the centre, IE above
the twist and so if any damage did occur, it wouldn't be near any mortar
beds it would be in the centre of the cavity, and even then in only
about 1% of the ties.

I was always told that the whole point of galvanising was that it didn't
actually matter if the coating wasn't continuous.

to an extent that is true. However, in the limit 'no continuous='not
there at all'.

So by reductio ad absurdum, you can see its not wholly true.

Phil L wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:


No. walls are designed mainly to not get soaking wet.

? ? ?

A combination of wind and rain will see all walls get soaking wet from time
to time, regardless of which way they're facing.

yes, but they dry out faster than the water seeps inside.

Phil L wrote:
snipbearing this in mind, I am going to
paint, 'don't crash here' on my roof to warn passing pilots and UFO's not to
do their dirty buisness on my house :-)


Think carefully before you do that. It appears that the real story
isn't as good as the legend...

http://www.targeta.co.uk/wheretogo.htm

.... which was that every pilot in the country went to see, but even so...

Andy

On Mon, 5 Jul 2010 16:44:32 +0100, Phil L wrote:

I am going to paint, 'don't crash here' on my roof to warn passing
pilots and UFO's not to do their dirty buisness on my house :-)

Seriously thinking about painting a band 18" down from the roof line
and an 18" wide vertical column in aluminium paint on the gable end
of the house that faces down the valley before painting over in
ordinary masonary paint. Hopefully it would show as an upward
pointing arrow on the radar or thermal imagers on the fast jets as
they approach and use us as a marker to take the bend in the
valley...

--
Cheers
Dave.

harry wrote:

I once knocked a wall down, I should think it was Victorian. The wall
ties were all cast bronze, the drip was formed with a "bump" of about
35mm. They too had fish tails. They were in absolutely perfect
condition, just slightly green.

I think the wire ties are fairly suspect. Lots from the 50's and 60's
failing now. At least they don't seem to force the brickwork apart.
An alternative to the post fix wall ties is cavity wall foam
insulation. Glues the two halves together. Allegedly. We'll see.

the injected foam has absolutely no adhesive properties whatsoever - it's
nothing like the modern foam used in various building applications like
affixing frames etc, and even that would be completely useless as an
adhesive for brick/blockwork.

Foam insulation has never been marketed as, nor had claims made about it
'glueing' the two walls together, given that it's final consistency when
fully cured is that of candy floss.


--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Phil L wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:


No. walls are designed mainly to not get soaking wet.

? ? ?

A combination of wind and rain will see all walls get soaking wet
from time to time, regardless of which way they're facing.

yes, but they dry out faster than the water seeps inside.

The amount of water getting into the cavity is irrelevant in relation to the
outer brickwork, and by association the outer portion of the wall ties
getting wet periodically, and this is what causes them to rust.

That said, it only occurs when oxygen is present, and if the mortar is solid
and it gets wet, no rust can occur, it's only once hairline cracks appear in
the mortar beds that the rust takes proper hold and forces the cracks even
wider, thus perpetuating the cycle

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Bob Minchin wrote:
Huge wrote:
On 2010-07-05, Phil wrote:
Jim wrote:

We had a company install stainless wall ties over all the external
walls by drilling through the bricks, they then dug out the lime
mortar around the ends of the ties and put a sheath around them,
repointing as necessary.
Cost in the region of 4 grand.

And this job would have made a perfect DIY project and saved you
thousands. You can buy all the materials you need online or from BM's
and hire
metal detector, SDS drill and thin chisel bit.
One man could do an average semi in a week and total cost of
materials, tool hire etc£500, and £300 of that would be for new SS
ties!

Yes, but the insurance compnay wouldn't pay for that. )


Is the failure of wall ties likely to be covered by a 'normal' house
buildings insurance?
There is no mortgage co involved and we have a very low incidence of
claims (3 minor ones in 28 years)
Bob

Highly unlikely to be covered, but it might be worth a try if they need
doing, but they won't take your word for it, they will insist on a survey by
a wall tie company

--
Phil L
RSRL Tipster Of The Year 2008

Phil L wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:
Phil L wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:


No. walls are designed mainly to not get soaking wet.
? ? ?

A combination of wind and rain will see all walls get soaking wet
from time to time, regardless of which way they're facing.

yes, but they dry out faster than the water seeps inside.

The amount of water getting into the cavity is irrelevant in relation to the
outer brickwork, and by association the outer portion of the wall ties
getting wet periodically, and this is what causes them to rust.

That said, it only occurs when oxygen is present, and if the mortar is solid
and it gets wet, no rust can occur, it's only once hairline cracks appear in
the mortar beds that the rust takes proper hold and forces the cracks even
wider, thus perpetuating the cycle

Or when you have lime mortar, which is essentially porous.