We have a brick wall in our house which we want to leave unplastered as
a feature. It needs to have a lightswitch and a double socket on it.

Since chasing the wall would look ugly, I'm trying to find something
which is surface mounted and that will look vaguely industrial/old
fashioned rather than tacky and white plastic.

Is anyone aware of a manufacturer that has anything like this? The only
surface mount stuff I can find at the moment is grey.

The other options seem to be drilling straight through the wall and
running the wires up the other side, or running the wires up the cavity
(strangely it's a cavity wall although it is internal: a relic of how
the extension was built). Neither of these, I think, are allowed under
the wiring regulations.

Jim wrote:
We have a brick wall in our house which we want to leave unplastered as
a feature. It needs to have a lightswitch and a double socket on it.

Since chasing the wall would look ugly, I'm trying to find something
which is surface mounted and that will look vaguely industrial/old
fashioned rather than tacky and white plastic.

Is anyone aware of a manufacturer that has anything like this? The only
surface mount stuff I can find at the moment is grey.

Tryy here - any number of options:
http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...dex/index.html

Not sure how many of these designs have bespoke surface-mounting boxes,
which is what you'll need, but there are certainly brass boxes
available, and also definitely steel ones if you want the 'industrial' look.

David

Jim wrote:
We have a brick wall in our house which we want to leave unplastered as
a feature. It needs to have a lightswitch and a double socket on it.

Since chasing the wall would look ugly, I'm trying to find something
which is surface mounted and that will look vaguely industrial/old
fashioned rather than tacky and white plastic.

Is anyone aware of a manufacturer that has anything like this? The only
surface mount stuff I can find at the moment is grey.

The other options seem to be drilling straight through the wall and
running the wires up the other side, or running the wires up the cavity
(strangely it's a cavity wall although it is internal: a relic of how
the extension was built). Neither of these, I think, are allowed under
the wiring regulations.

If you've got a bit of spare cash, then you could consider using bare
pyro. If you don't finish it, then it goes dark and blends in with
brick/stone quite quickly. Also, as you fix it with p-clips, it will
conform well with the wall.

You don't have to wire the whole circuit in pyro, just the bits on show.

http://www.buildingconservation.com/...ires/cable.jpg

In article ,
Jim wrote:
We have a brick wall in our house which we want to leave unplastered as
a feature. It needs to have a lightswitch and a double socket on it.

Since chasing the wall would look ugly, I'm trying to find something
which is surface mounted and that will look vaguely industrial/old
fashioned rather than tacky and white plastic.

Is anyone aware of a manufacturer that has anything like this? The only
surface mount stuff I can find at the moment is grey.

The other options seem to be drilling straight through the wall and
running the wires up the other side, or running the wires up the cavity
(strangely it's a cavity wall although it is internal: a relic of how
the extension was built). Neither of these, I think, are allowed under
the wiring regulations.

What looks best for that IMHO is a good quality metal surface mount
fitting wired in surface MICC cable with the PVC protective sleeve
removed, if you can't find it bare to start with. MICC looks like a small
copper pipe but can be bent by hand. The fitting to the box rather like a
brass compression fitting. As regards the fittings, look at all the large
maker's sites to find out which looks best to you. I've seen them in
brushed stainless and brass as well as painted grey.

--
* I like you. You remind me of when I was young and stupid

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 18/05/2010 13:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
What looks best for that IMHO is a good quality metal surface mount
fitting wired in surface MICC cable with the PVC protective sleeve
removed, if you can't find it bare to start with. MICC looks like a small
copper pipe but can be bent by hand. The fitting to the box rather like a
brass compression fitting. As regards the fittings, look at all the large
maker's sites to find out which looks best to you. I've seen them in
brushed stainless and brass as well as painted grey.

Thanks for that suggestion - I hadn't thought of MICC.

I've had a look at various websites, though, and I can't for the life of
me find anyone who makes the brushed stainless or brass surface mount
boxes. I'm sure I've seen them somewhere!

Jim wrote:
On 18/05/2010 13:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
What looks best for that IMHO is a good quality metal surface mount
fitting wired in surface MICC cable with the PVC protective sleeve
removed, if you can't find it bare to start with. MICC looks like a small
copper pipe but can be bent by hand. The fitting to the box rather like a
brass compression fitting. As regards the fittings, look at all the large
maker's sites to find out which looks best to you. I've seen them in
brushed stainless and brass as well as painted grey.

Thanks for that suggestion - I hadn't thought of MICC.

I've had a look at various websites, though, and I can't for the life of
me find anyone who makes the brushed stainless or brass surface mount
boxes. I'm sure I've seen them somewhere!

TLC as per my previous post certainly do brass ones

On 18/05/2010 14:14, Lobster wrote:
Jim wrote:
On 18/05/2010 13:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
What looks best for that IMHO is a good quality metal surface mount
fitting wired in surface MICC cable with the PVC protective sleeve
removed, if you can't find it bare to start with. MICC looks like a small
copper pipe but can be bent by hand. The fitting to the box rather like a
brass compression fitting. As regards the fittings, look at all the large
maker's sites to find out which looks best to you. I've seen them in
brushed stainless and brass as well as painted grey.

Thanks for that suggestion - I hadn't thought of MICC.

I've had a look at various websites, though, and I can't for the life of
me find anyone who makes the brushed stainless or brass surface mount
boxes. I'm sure I've seen them somewhere!

TLC as per my previous post certainly do brass ones

I guess you mean these?

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Ind...xes/index.html

I don't really think they're suitable, unfortunately.

In article ,
Jim wrote:
On 18/05/2010 13:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
What looks best for that IMHO is a good quality metal surface mount
fitting wired in surface MICC cable with the PVC protective sleeve
removed, if you can't find it bare to start with. MICC looks like a
small copper pipe but can be bent by hand. The fitting to the box
rather like a brass compression fitting. As regards the fittings, look
at all the large maker's sites to find out which looks best to you.
I've seen them in brushed stainless and brass as well as painted grey.

Thanks for that suggestion - I hadn't thought of MICC.

I've had a look at various websites, though, and I can't for the life of
me find anyone who makes the brushed stainless or brass surface mount
boxes. I'm sure I've seen them somewhere!

I know Crabtree once did as I've got the brushed chrome ones.

--
*My dog can lick anyone

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Lewden (very industrial, art deco style, 5A 13A 15A 30A) or Clipsal
(modern knockoff).

I would bring the cable in from the rear.
Run oval or round conduit down the other side into a BESA box sunk
into the wall, rear exit the BESA into the rear of whatever you
choose. No problem feeding a tape down with magnet, snap onto a magnet
puller and pulling through - along with conventional FTE. Permits
cable replacement easily in the future. You could sink the socket/
light switch and use brass faceplates, just realise moving them
requires quite a bit of future work if you change your mind :-) For a
horizontal run do the same re two leg conduit box and chase the wall
the other side horizontally. BESA boxes work well for this kind of
stuff - same with wall lights although some require architrave if the
light fitting itself is quite narrow.

Cable running down the wall may work , but a socket/switch sat
"cleanly" on a brick wall can look much better. Consider the outside
of your house - do you prefer cables running down to an accessory or a
lone accessory & lone light on the wall? Most people prefer the latter
with the cables hidden, particularly with FP200G/BS8436 being white.

In article ,
Jim wrote:
On 18/05/2010 13:33, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
What looks best for that IMHO is a good quality metal surface mount
fitting wired in surface MICC cable with the PVC protective sleeve
removed, if you can't find it bare to start with. MICC looks like a
small copper pipe but can be bent by hand. The fitting to the box
rather like a brass compression fitting. As regards the fittings, look
at all the large maker's sites to find out which looks best to you.
I've seen them in brushed stainless and brass as well as painted grey.

Thanks for that suggestion - I hadn't thought of MICC.

I've had a look at various websites, though, and I can't for the life of
me find anyone who makes the brushed stainless or brass surface mount
boxes. I'm sure I've seen them somewhere!

I've been in touch with a mate of mine who runs St John's Hill Lighting
near Clapham Junction. He's a real fount of all knowledge on things like
this having been in the trade all his life. And reckons no one makes other
than painted metal clad anymore. So it would be down to using a standard
flush fitting brass or whatever with the matching metal box for surface
mounting - he reckons the MK ones look ok. I've never seen one in the
flesh.

--
*I wish the buck stopped here. I could use a few.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On Tue, 18 May 2010 12:18:59 +0100, Jim wrote:

Since chasing the wall would look ugly, I'm trying to find something
which is surface mounted and that will look vaguely industrial/old
fashioned rather than tacky and white plastic.

Old metal conduit rescued from a skip?

Isn't MICC/Pyro a bit of skill to terminate?

--
Cheers
Dave.

On May 18, 5:05*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
Isn't MICC/Pyro a bit of skill to terminate?

Quite a bit north of £50 for tools & glands, £2 per metre of cable.

On 18/05/2010 12:18, Jim wrote:
We have a brick wall in our house which we want to leave unplastered as
a feature. It needs to have a lightswitch and a double socket on it.

Since chasing the wall would look ugly, I'm trying to find something
which is surface mounted and that will look vaguely industrial/old
fashioned rather than tacky and white plastic.

Is anyone aware of a manufacturer that has anything like this? The only
surface mount stuff I can find at the moment is grey.

The other options seem to be drilling straight through the wall and
running the wires up the other side, or running the wires up the cavity
(strangely it's a cavity wall although it is internal: a relic of how
the extension was built). Neither of these, I think, are allowed under
the wiring regulations.

What about some nice 20mm Galv Conduit with 1Gang Metal boxes. Cheap to
buy and great fun to bend.

--
Regards
Camdor.

On Tue, 18 May 2010 09:48:23 -0700, js.b1 wrote:

On May 18, 5:05Â*pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
Isn't MICC/Pyro a bit of skill to terminate?

Quite a bit north of £50 for tools & glands, £2 per metre of cable.

Would there be anything wrong with some nice polished copper tube as
'conduit'?

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2010 12:18:59 +0100, Jim wrote:

Since chasing the wall would look ugly, I'm trying to find something
which is surface mounted and that will look vaguely industrial/old
fashioned rather than tacky and white plastic.

Old metal conduit rescued from a skip?

Isn't MICC/Pyro a bit of skill to terminate?


It's very expensive to buy (if you have to buy 100m of cable), very
expensive to terminate (if you have to buy glands in packs of ten, when
you only need 2 or 4), expensive on tools which can only be used for to
terminate pyro/micc and it requires skill and practice to make it look
good. A lot of younger sparks will never have used it outside college,
if ever.

Your best bet, if you wanted a bit of pyro doing, would be to get in
touch with your local theatre and ask them for the name of their
maintenance electrician. Theatres were (and are) often wired in micc
because of its ultimate fireproof nature, so the maintenance electrician
will necessarily be geared up to do micc work.

Bob Eager wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2010 09:48:23 -0700, js.b1 wrote:

On May 18, 5:05 pm, "Dave Liquorice"
wrote:
Isn't MICC/Pyro a bit of skill to terminate?
Quite a bit north of £50 for tools & glands, £2 per metre of cable.

Would there be anything wrong with some nice polished copper tube as
'conduit'?


No, except for the fact that you would have to earth it with a Tenby
clamp! Yummy :-)

In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2010 12:18:59 +0100, Jim wrote:

Since chasing the wall would look ugly, I'm trying to find something
which is surface mounted and that will look vaguely industrial/old
fashioned rather than tacky and white plastic.

Old metal conduit rescued from a skip?

Isn't MICC/Pyro a bit of skill to terminate?

Great fun. Can be done easily DIY with care and no special tools. Just
takes longer. Think it's in the FAQ, how to.

--
*Remember: First you pillage, then you burn.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Dave Osborne wrote:
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2010 12:18:59 +0100, Jim wrote:

Since chasing the wall would look ugly, I'm trying to find something
which is surface mounted and that will look vaguely industrial/old
fashioned rather than tacky and white plastic.

Old metal conduit rescued from a skip?

Isn't MICC/Pyro a bit of skill to terminate?


It's very expensive to buy (if you have to buy 100m of cable), very
expensive to terminate (if you have to buy glands in packs of ten, when
you only need 2 or 4), expensive on tools which can only be used for to
terminate pyro/micc and it requires skill and practice to make it look
good. A lot of younger sparks will never have used it outside college,
if ever.

My guess is any wholesaler who stocks it will cut it. It's true the seals
and glands are expensive at about 3 quid a go - but then so is say chrome
plated copper pipe, and people will pay for that where it can be seen. And
plenty of sockets cost a great deal.

With care, you can terminate it without special tools - it just takes
longer. And is quite fun.

Your best bet, if you wanted a bit of pyro doing, would be to get in
touch with your local theatre and ask them for the name of their
maintenance electrician. Theatres were (and are) often wired in micc
because of its ultimate fireproof nature, so the maintenance electrician
will necessarily be geared up to do micc work.

My view is a competent DIYer who works with copper pipe and has reasonable
understanding of electrics will be fine with it. Getting it might be the
biggest problem. IMHO, the end result done neatly looks better than any
alternative over brick or old wood, etc. After a short while copper blends
into them so well.

--
*I'm not your type. I'm not inflatable.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article o.uk,
Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 18 May 2010 12:18:59 +0100, Jim wrote:

Since chasing the wall would look ugly, I'm trying to find something
which is surface mounted and that will look vaguely industrial/old
fashioned rather than tacky and white plastic.

Old metal conduit rescued from a skip?

Isn't MICC/Pyro a bit of skill to terminate?

Great fun. Can be done easily DIY with care and no special tools. Just
takes longer. Think it's in the FAQ, how to.


Just to be clear on this point, you absolutely *must* megger each piece
of pyro/micc after you have potted it but before it is terminated. It is
*not* suitable for DIY if you don't have access to a 500V insulation tester.

Ebay is probably the best bet for Pyro or MICC...
- Glands can be had cheaply
- Cable can be had by the metre (3 core 1.5mm is £3.25) or offcut (21m
is £59)

QVSdirect had cut-length, glands etc a few months back but nothing
now.

I would suggest a visual pilot.
1) Stick the light and socket on the wall with double sided tape -
photograph from within the room somewhere re "context" & print off in
colour.
2) Buy 8mm copper tube, stick the 8mm copper tube to the wall leading
to each wiring accessory - photograph from within the room somewhere
re "context" & print off in colour.

Leave the pictures on the coffee table for a day and you will then
decide which you prefer. You may like it, but then go off it. It is
like the kitchen sockets with 2G+1G+2G all jammed against one another,
or spaced apart, there is an aesthetics issue which is best sorted out
before you start fixing things to wall.

In article ,
Dave Osborne wrote:
Just to be clear on this point, you absolutely *must* megger each piece
of pyro/micc after you have potted it but before it is terminated. It is
*not* suitable for DIY if you don't have access to a 500V insulation
tester.

With respect, ********. I'm assuming you're using new cable - not
something stored in the rain for years. There simply is no need in
practice if you work carefully.

BTW, what do you consider the difference between 'potting' and
'terminated'?

--
*A bicycle can't stand alone because it's two tyred.*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

BTW, what do you consider the difference between 'potting' and
'terminated'?

Potting is stripping, putting the resin in, and putting the end on.

Terminating is connecting it up.

On 19/05/10 00:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Dave wrote:
Just to be clear on this point, you absolutely *must* megger each piece
of pyro/micc after you have potted it but before it is terminated. It is
*not* suitable for DIY if you don't have access to a 500V insulation
tester.

With respect, ********. I'm assuming you're using new cable - not
something stored in the rain for years. There simply is no need in
practice if you work carefully.

BTW, what do you consider the difference between 'potting' and
'terminated'?


No, I agree with Dave O. PVC if new and visibly undamaged can reasonably
be assumed to have good insulation.

You cannot assume that, in particular, a piece of pyro bought from ebay,
or an offcut from the wholesaler, hasn't been subjected to damp.

Also, as a DIYer, I wouldn't feel happy unless I could megger the thing
3 months down the line. Potting is possible to get wrong, letting in
moisture later.

Noone said you couldn't DIY a tester for this purpose - it is after all
only a 500V DC test. Given pyro can cope with 1000V tests, the simplest
(and slightly dangerous, but not if you're careful) tester would be a
mains driven voltage doubler (couple of diodes and capacitors), limiting
resistor and an micro-ammeter.

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

BTW, what do you consider the difference between 'potting' and
'terminated'?

Potting is stripping, putting the resin in, and putting the end on.

Terminating is connecting it up.

Pyro doesn't use resin.

--
*Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On 19/05/10 00:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Dave wrote:
Just to be clear on this point, you absolutely *must* megger each piece
of pyro/micc after you have potted it but before it is terminated. It is
*not* suitable for DIY if you don't have access to a 500V insulation
tester.

With respect, ********. I'm assuming you're using new cable - not
something stored in the rain for years. There simply is no need in
practice if you work carefully.

BTW, what do you consider the difference between 'potting' and
'terminated'?


No, I agree with Dave O. PVC if new and visibly undamaged can reasonably
be assumed to have good insulation.

You cannot assume that, in particular, a piece of pyro bought from ebay,
or an offcut from the wholesaler, hasn't been subjected to damp.

Also, as a DIYer, I wouldn't feel happy unless I could megger the thing
3 months down the line. Potting is possible to get wrong, letting in
moisture later.

Noone said you couldn't DIY a tester for this purpose - it is after all
only a 500V DC test. Given pyro can cope with 1000V tests, the simplest
(and slightly dangerous, but not if you're careful) tester would be a
mains driven voltage doubler (couple of diodes and capacitors), limiting
resistor and an micro-ammeter.

Cheers

Tim

Water damaged pyro is pretty obvious to the experienced - the MI isn't a
powder anymore. It also progresses through the cable pretty slowly - so
normal stripping will sort most.

And an ordinary decent DVM will show clearly if you have this condition.

As regards water getting in later - take care making the termination and
it won't. Unless the cable gets badly damaged - which is a different
matter.

--
*I don't have a license to kill, but I do have a learner's permit.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Tim Watts wrote:
On 19/05/10 00:58, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Dave wrote:
Just to be clear on this point, you absolutely *must* megger each piece
of pyro/micc after you have potted it but before it is terminated. It is
*not* suitable for DIY if you don't have access to a 500V insulation
tester.

With respect, ********. I'm assuming you're using new cable - not
something stored in the rain for years. There simply is no need in
practice if you work carefully.

BTW, what do you consider the difference between 'potting' and
'terminated'?


No, I agree with Dave O. PVC if new and visibly undamaged can reasonably
be assumed to have good insulation.

You cannot assume that, in particular, a piece of pyro bought from ebay,
or an offcut from the wholesaler, hasn't been subjected to damp.

Also, as a DIYer, I wouldn't feel happy unless I could megger the thing
3 months down the line. Potting is possible to get wrong, letting in
moisture later.

Noone said you couldn't DIY a tester for this purpose - it is after all
only a 500V DC test. Given pyro can cope with 1000V tests, the simplest
(and slightly dangerous, but not if you're careful) tester would be a
mains driven voltage doubler (couple of diodes and capacitors), limiting
resistor and an micro-ammeter.

Cheers

Tim


What Tim says. Although I would advocate the use of a 16th approved
(i.e. minimum 1mA test current) 500V insulation tester.

With an off-cut of pyro of unknown provenance (or known to have been
hanging around for a while), you need to Megger it before you pot it. If
it doesn't Megger before you pot it, there's no point in potting it at
all. You can try alternately cutting each end back until it Meggers
and/or you can put it in the oven for a couple of hours to suck the
moisture out of the ends. When the offcut Megger's OK, then you can
install it and pot it, then (because you can f*sk-up potting quite
easily, particularly if you don't have the right tools), you need to
Megger it again (before terminating the ends to the rest of the
installation) to be completely confident you've potted it properly. This
way when you come to do a final Megger of the work done, you can be sure
that if it fails, it will not be due to moisture in the pyro or a
badly-potted pyro-end, it will be something else. This discipline can
save an awful lot of heartache, time and cost later.

DaveyOz

In article ,
Dave Osborne wrote:
With an off-cut of pyro of unknown provenance (or known to have been
hanging around for a while), you need to Megger it before you pot it. If
it doesn't Megger before you pot it, there's no point in potting it at
all. You can try alternately cutting each end back until it Meggers
and/or you can put it in the oven for a couple of hours to suck the
moisture out of the ends. When the offcut Megger's OK, then you can
install it and pot it, then (because you can f*sk-up potting quite
easily, particularly if you don't have the right tools), you need to
Megger it again (before terminating the ends to the rest of the
installation) to be completely confident you've potted it properly. This
way when you come to do a final Megger of the work done, you can be sure
that if it fails, it will not be due to moisture in the pyro or a
badly-potted pyro-end, it will be something else. This discipline can
save an awful lot of heartache, time and cost later.

I think you're making a meal out of it. Of course some thick sparkie who
doesn't give a toss can f**k it up - in the same way as so many of them
don't tighten terminal screws properly. But with care a competent DIYer
should be ok by following the instructions in the FAQ. I've made many
thousands of terminations without problems. And although I do have the
special tools I have on occasion made new ones without. I'd also say
through experience that you have no more need to megger the circuit than a
PVC TW&E one. If you take care. A DVM will show up any likely fault. Of
course if you have a megger then use it. But taking care is a better way.

--
*7up is good for you, signed snow white*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


I think you're making a meal out of it. Of course some thick sparkie who
doesn't give a toss can f**k it up - in the same way as so many of them
don't tighten terminal screws properly. But with care a competent DIYer
should be ok by following the instructions in the FAQ. I've made many
thousands of terminations without problems.


I thought you were an ex-BBC Film sound engineer? In what context have
you "made many thousands of [pyro/micc] terminations"? You are in a very
small minority if you have. Pray tell.

On 19/05/10 11:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Water damaged pyro is pretty obvious to the experienced - the MI isn't a
powder anymore. It also progresses through the cable pretty slowly - so
normal stripping will sort most.

And an ordinary decent DVM will show clearly if you have this condition.

As regards water getting in later - take care making the termination and
it won't. Unless the cable gets badly damaged - which is a different
matter.


You may ask why test any new installation?

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

BTW, what do you consider the difference between 'potting' and
'terminated'?

Potting is stripping, putting the resin in, and putting the end on.

Terminating is connecting it up.

Pyro doesn't use resin.

What's the putty if not resin?

In article ,
Dave Osborne wrote:
I think you're making a meal out of it. Of course some thick sparkie who
doesn't give a toss can f**k it up - in the same way as so many of them
don't tighten terminal screws properly. But with care a competent DIYer
should be ok by following the instructions in the FAQ. I've made many
thousands of terminations without problems.


I thought you were an ex-BBC Film sound engineer?

You thought wrong.

In what context have
you "made many thousands of [pyro/micc] terminations"? You are in a very
small minority if you have. Pray tell.

Commercial greenhouses. The BBC pay was so poor I had a second job.

--
*If only you'd use your powers for good instead of evil.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
On 19/05/10 11:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Water damaged pyro is pretty obvious to the experienced - the MI isn't
a powder anymore. It also progresses through the cable pretty slowly -
so normal stripping will sort most.

And an ordinary decent DVM will show clearly if you have this
condition.

As regards water getting in later - take care making the termination
and it won't. Unless the cable gets badly damaged - which is a
different matter.


You may ask why test any new installation?

I'd ask how many times faults are found.

--
*If we weren't meant to eat animals, why are they made of meat?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
dennis@home wrote:


"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...

BTW, what do you consider the difference between 'potting' and
'terminated'?

Potting is stripping, putting the resin in, and putting the end on.

Terminating is connecting it up.

Pyro doesn't use resin.

What's the putty if not resin?

Putty. Resin sets.

--
*Why is it considered necessary to screw down the lid of a coffin?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 20/05/10 00:15, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Tim wrote:
On 19/05/10 11:22, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

Water damaged pyro is pretty obvious to the experienced - the MI isn't
a powder anymore. It also progresses through the cable pretty slowly -
so normal stripping will sort most.

And an ordinary decent DVM will show clearly if you have this
condition.

As regards water getting in later - take care making the termination
and it won't. Unless the cable gets badly damaged - which is a
different matter.


You may ask why test any new installation?

I'd ask how many times faults are found.


In my personal experience, once in the last 2 years. Broken neutral in a
ring. Would never have noticed if I hadn't followed the standard testing
regime.

So, categorically, I say, without any hestistation, new work *should* be
tested. Perhaps *inside* a house with all new components and T+E, one
could skip the IR test (I've never seen that anything than offscale),
but there, continuity and RCD tests are very wise.

You may argue that in the case above, a simple multimeter would have
been good enough for the end-end ring test that would indicate a broken
conductor. Yes it would. Even the diagnostic search was done with a
binary search rather than trying to be clever with conductor resistances.

But, what if the RCD was out of spec? That does happen and it's rather
harder to test those. Pyro, especially if it is terminated for the first
time by an inexperienced person, AFAIC *must* be tested, if if the test
is gerry rigged. Pyro has a known failure case (mositure) that is
considerably more likely to occur compared to leakage in a T+E installation.

With respect, I don't care if *you've* done thousands of pyro
terminations - that means you have a feel for what's right. Newbies
don't. I wouldn't either, so they and I ought to be testing the stuff.
And IMHO *we* (uk.d-i-y) ought to be promoting good practises Not
saying "********" to someone who is doing so...

Cheers

Tim
--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

On Thu, 20 May 2010 00:14:15 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Dave Osborne wrote:
I think you're making a meal out of it. Of course some thick sparkie
who doesn't give a toss can f**k it up - in the same way as so many
of them don't tighten terminal screws properly. But with care a
competent DIYer should be ok by following the instructions in the
FAQ. I've made many thousands of terminations without problems.


I thought you were an ex-BBC Film sound engineer?

You thought wrong.

In what context have
you "made many thousands of [pyro/micc] terminations"? You are in a
very small minority if you have. Pray tell.

Commercial greenhouses. The BBC pay was so poor I had a second job.

You'll be an expert on potting then! .-)

I'll get me coat...

--
Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
http://www.mirrorservice.org

*lightning protection* - a w_tom conductor

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
You may ask why test any new installation?

I'd ask how many times faults are found.


In my personal experience, once in the last 2 years. Broken neutral in a
ring. Would never have noticed if I hadn't followed the standard testing
regime.

You'd have found that with any continuity testing device - like a two quid
DVM.

So, categorically, I say, without any hestistation, new work *should* be
tested. Perhaps *inside* a house with all new components and T+E, one
could skip the IR test (I've never seen that anything than offscale),
but there, continuity and RCD tests are very wise.

I'm very much *not* against testing. Just pointing out that for a small
DIY job you don't need to rush out and get a megger as suggested.

You may argue that in the case above, a simple multimeter would have
been good enough for the end-end ring test that would indicate a broken
conductor. Yes it would. Even the diagnostic search was done with a
binary search rather than trying to be clever with conductor resistances.

IMHO the vast majority of likely faults on a simple installation will be
shown up with a DVM. And relying on expensive test equipment to guard
against poor workmanship is the wrong way round. For example, if you
changed a plug, would you feel it necessary to have that device PAT
(tested)? It's the same sort of thing.


But, what if the RCD was out of spec? That does happen and it's rather
harder to test those. Pyro, especially if it is terminated for the first
time by an inexperienced person, AFAIC *must* be tested, if if the test
is gerry rigged. Pyro has a known failure case (mositure) that is
considerably more likely to occur compared to leakage in a T+E
installation.

Damp pyro will show up on a DVM. I've checked this. Have you? However,
it's nothing like as common as some suggest. If bought from a reputable
seller, just terminating it will remove any ingress of moisture. Stored
outside or in damp conditions for a considerable time would be a different
matter.

And what would be the result of leaking pyro? A fire? Explosion? Do you
have your own installation regularly tested for faults that may develop
after installation? Seems to me these are equally as likely as
installation ones.

With respect, I don't care if *you've* done thousands of pyro
terminations - that means you have a feel for what's right. Newbies
don't. I wouldn't either, so they and I ought to be testing the stuff.
And IMHO *we* (uk.d-i-y) ought to be promoting good practises Not
saying "********" to someone who is doing so...

I dislike someone saying 'you mustn't do this' unless there is a very good
safety reason. With pyro in particular there isn't.

Basically, I'm saying don't let the pros who are terrified by pyro put you
off having a go DIY wise if it's what you want. Just practice first and
take care. As it says in the FAQ.

--
*Welcome to **** Creek - sorry, we're out of paddles*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Bob Eager wrote:
On Thu, 20 May 2010 00:14:15 +0100, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

In article ,
Dave Osborne wrote:
I think you're making a meal out of it. Of course some thick sparkie
who doesn't give a toss can f**k it up - in the same way as so many
of them don't tighten terminal screws properly. But with care a
competent DIYer should be ok by following the instructions in the
FAQ. I've made many thousands of terminations without problems.


I thought you were an ex-BBC Film sound engineer?

You thought wrong.

In what context have
you "made many thousands of [pyro/micc] terminations"? You are in a
very small minority if you have. Pray tell.

Commercial greenhouses. The BBC pay was so poor I had a second job.

You'll be an expert on potting then! .-)

I'll get me coat...

;-)

Now you know where dribble gets the plantpot from. As if...

BTW the 'many thousands' on reflection is an exaggeration. Make that
hundreds.

--
*When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 20/05/10 10:30, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In ,
Tim wrote:

In my personal experience, once in the last 2 years. Broken neutral in a
ring. Would never have noticed if I hadn't followed the standard testing
regime.

You'd have found that with any continuity testing device - like a two quid
DVM.

I did say that. I also said you cannot test an RCD properly with a DVM
too (as an aside on testing, not to do with pyro).


I'm very much *not* against testing. Just pointing out that for a small
DIY job you don't need to rush out and get a megger as suggested.

There are many classes of DIY job. The ones that could be tested with
nothing more than a DVM could include small scale PVC internal works.

Ones I think are best tested with the correct gear (at least R1+R2,
end-end ring and RCD checks) would include new circuits with any
complexity, including rings and lighting (the impedance tests *are*
useful for discovering bad terminations), *anything* outside and pyro.


IMHO the vast majority of likely faults on a simple installation will be
shown up with a DVM.

Except RCD tests. They do go wrong and it isn't totally impossible that
a faulty one has made it onto the shop shelves (note recent protective
device recall by well know manufacturer).

And relying on expensive test equipment to guard
against poor workmanship is the wrong way round.

It is still a very good idea.

For example, if you
changed a plug, would you feel it necessary to have that device PAT
(tested)? It's the same sort of thing.

No, because it is *one* set of terminations that I can inspect manually,
and putting the back of the plug on doesn't disturn them in the same way
that putting a socket back into the wall does - that is where I had my
broken neutral. All 6 conductors survived a pull test, the wires are
neatly looped so as to collapse in a helical fashion when the socket was
returned into its 35mm backbox. And the bloody wire still fractured. I
suspect the screw had bitten it too much or something.

A clear case where the most careful workmanship in the world still
resulted in a fault.

Re the plug, also I can visually inspect the lead. I still do a rough
and ready appliance test on some of my stuff, eg external cement mixer,
extension leads, Class 1 second hand stuff: (500V IR with Megger and
earth loop impedance test, and R1+R2 as well for extension leads).



But, what if the RCD was out of spec? That does happen and it's rather
harder to test those. Pyro, especially if it is terminated for the first
time by an inexperienced person, AFAIC *must* be tested, if if the test
is gerry rigged. Pyro has a known failure case (mositure) that is
considerably more likely to occur compared to leakage in a T+E
installation.

Damp pyro will show up on a DVM. I've checked this.

You should have said before. That is worth knowing, in which case the OP
should at least do that.

Have you?

No, because as yet I have had no reason to use pyro - but I am well
aware of its failure modes and *I* wouldn't be happy unless I'd checked
them. You're happy because you've done loads before.

However,
it's nothing like as common as some suggest. If bought from a reputable
seller, just terminating it will remove any ingress of moisture. Stored
outside or in damp conditions for a considerable time would be a different
matter.

Which is entirely possible with cable of unknown origin (ebay).

And what would be the result of leaking pyro? A fire? Explosion?

Compound fault on non RCD circuit (entirely possible):

Earth fails + L-E leaky.
Pyro sheath and connected metalwork now live.

Of course, the earth failing is always bad, and compound faults are very
rare, but it has been known for people to die due to one in a million
compound faults.

Why take the risk - eliminate that which is known to be reasonably possible.

Do you
have your own installation regularly tested for faults that may develop
after installation?

Yes - I do it myself...

Seems to me these are equally as likely as
installation ones.

With respect, I don't care if *you've* done thousands of pyro
terminations - that means you have a feel for what's right. Newbies
don't. I wouldn't either, so they and I ought to be testing the stuff.
And IMHO *we* (uk.d-i-y) ought to be promoting good practises Not
saying "********" to someone who is doing so...

I dislike someone saying 'you mustn't do this' unless there is a very good
safety reason. With pyro in particular there isn't.

Basically, I'm saying don't let the pros who are terrified by pyro put you
off having a go DIY wise if it's what you want. Just practice first and
take care. As it says in the FAQ.



--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.

In article ,
Tim Watts wrote:
However, it's nothing like as common as some suggest. If bought from a
reputable seller, just terminating it will remove any ingress of
moisture. Stored outside or in damp conditions for a considerable time
would be a different matter.

Which is entirely possible with cable of unknown origin (ebay).

Then dry it out before using. It's very obvious when damp has penetrated -
the MI ceases being a powder.

And what would be the result of leaking pyro? A fire? Explosion?

Compound fault on non RCD circuit (entirely possible):

Earth fails + L-E leaky.
Pyro sheath and connected metalwork now live.

I'd say if you have an installation where this is possible it wants
sorting and quickly. The whole idea of a safety earth is it can carry any
current possible safely before the protection device activates. Anything
else would be a nonsense.

Of course, the earth failing is always bad, and compound faults are very
rare, but it has been known for people to die due to one in a million
compound faults.

In which case simply don't attempt any DIY. Rely on a pro doing it and all
the possible safety checks. Even just changing a tap washer could
introduce contaminates to drinking water.

Why take the risk - eliminate that which is known to be reasonably
possible.

Do you
have your own installation regularly tested for faults that may develop
after installation?

Yes - I do it myself...

You, as a pure DIYer, have all the 17th edition test gear? Which is
regularly calibrated?

--
*It was recently discovered that research causes cancer in rats*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

On 20/05/10 14:40, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

You, as a pure DIYer, have all the 17th edition test gear? Which is
regularly calibrated?


Yes. Megger 1552. As you mention it, calibration happens to be due again
- had it done immediately I got it just to be sure the instrument was in
good nick.

--
Tim Watts

Hung parliament? Rather have a hanged parliament.