New to this forum so hope this is not OT.
I visited the site of a new house I am interested in buying which hasn't
been completed and was really surprised to see that there seemed to be
"plastic" hoses for the water supply in the garage area where I would have
suspected to see copper piping. I couldn't see what was used in the rest of
the house but is this really what builders are using these days??
This was not some cheap cheap place but what was described as a 5 bed, 3
bath exec home.
Anyone care to say if this is usual nowadays?
I'm surpassed its even legal.
Thanks
Dave

Anyone care to say if this is usual nowadays?

Yes. It can be used anywhere that copper can be, except for gas work. It is
actually more expensive to buy than copper and is not just a cheap solution,
although it is easier to install. Often, copper (or chromed) pipe is used
when the pipes are visible, such as tap tails for pedestal basins, or
radiator feeds.

In a garage, I'd much prefer plastic to copper due to its greater resistance
to frost damage. In the house, I'm not bothered either way, as long as it
isn't visible.

Christian.

Yes perfectly legal and acceptable practice
The construction industry is, contrary to popular belief, coming round to
the 20th Century. (still a way to catch up to the 21st I know)
What is the problem with plastic pipes?
Probably people objected when galvanised barrel was used after the lead
pipes that had been used since Roman times and when that new fangled copper
came in you should have seen the riots.

"David" wrote in message
.. .
New to this forum so hope this is not OT.
I visited the site of a new house I am interested in buying which hasn't
been completed and was really surprised to see that there seemed to be
"plastic" hoses for the water supply in the garage area where I would have
suspected to see copper piping. I couldn't see what was used in the rest
of
the house but is this really what builders are using these days??
This was not some cheap cheap place but what was described as a 5 bed, 3
bath exec home.
Anyone care to say if this is usual nowadays?
I'm surpassed its even legal.
Thanks
Dave

It will be plastic pipe. Developers use this on the first fix so that
unskilled labour can fit it and the Tinkers don't steal it. The second fix
is usually copper where the customer can see the pipes. It has advantages
and disadvantages, mainly negative I'm afraid. See current thread on this.
One poster had a catastrophic failure using this stuff.


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Mike Taylor wrote:

Yes perfectly legal and acceptable practice
The construction industry is, contrary to popular belief, coming round to
the 20th Century. (still a way to catch up to the 21st I know)
What is the problem with plastic pipes?


well in another 60 years we will probably find out :-)


Probably people objected when galvanised barrel was used after the lead
pipes that had been used since Roman times and when that new fangled copper
came in you should have seen the riots.



Proper pipes are made of wood.

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Mike Taylor wrote:

Yes perfectly legal and acceptable practice
The construction industry is, contrary to popular belief, coming round
to
the 20th Century. (still a way to catch up to the 21st I know)
What is the problem with plastic pipes?

well in another 60 years we will probably find out :-)

He should just read the current threads on this Lego material.

Proper pipes are made of wood.

A friend of mine went to work for the gas company in Sydney in Australia in
the 1970s. Around the harbour bridge they still had bamboo pipes under the
ground. he didn't have a clue on how to join it.


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In article , IMM
writes

"David" wrote in message
. ..
New to this forum so hope this is not OT.
I visited the site of a new house I am interested in buying which hasn't
been completed and was really surprised to see that there seemed to be
"plastic" hoses for the water supply in the garage area where I would have
suspected to see copper piping. I couldn't see what was used in the rest
of
the house but is this really what builders are using these days??
This was not some cheap cheap place but what was described as a 5 bed, 3
bath exec home.
Anyone care to say if this is usual nowadays?
I'm surpassed its even legal.
Thanks
Dave

It will be plastic pipe. Developers use this on the first fix so that
unskilled labour can fit it and the Tinkers don't steal it. The second fix
is usually copper where the customer can see the pipes. It has advantages
and disadvantages, mainly negative I'm afraid. See current thread on this.
One poster had a catastrophic failure using this stuff.

See now here's a case in point John, *most* of the comments are positive
and the catastrophic failure as you call it was caused by a
manufacturing defect, try and be objective and you will start to be more
credible, the first step to being cured is accepting that you have a
problem, at least you're admitting that new builds are all using plastic
pipe now so that's something 4/10
--
David

"David" wrote in message
...
In article , IMM
writes

"David" wrote in message
. ..
New to this forum so hope this is not OT.
I visited the site of a new house I am interested in buying which
hasn't
been completed and was really surprised to see that there seemed to be
"plastic" hoses for the water supply in the garage area where I would
have
suspected to see copper piping. I couldn't see what was used in the
rest
of
the house but is this really what builders are using these days??
This was not some cheap cheap place but what was described as a 5 bed,
3
bath exec home.
Anyone care to say if this is usual nowadays?
I'm surpassed its even legal.
Thanks
Dave

It will be plastic pipe. Developers use this on the first fix so that
unskilled labour can fit it and the Tinkers don't steal it. The second
fix
is usually copper where the customer can see the pipes. It has
advantages
and disadvantages, mainly negative I'm afraid. See current thread on
this.
One poster had a catastrophic failure using this stuff.

See now here's a case in point John, *most* of the comments are positive
and the catastrophic failure as you call it was caused by a
manufacturing defect, try and be objective and you will start to be more
credible, the first step to being cured is accepting that you have a
problem, at least you're admitting that new builds are all

"all" new bulids? My, my.

using plastic
pipe now so that's something 4/10

I find it amazing!! A rank amateur is lecturing me. Amazing! Get therapy
please. The NHS still do it free.



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"IMM" wrote in message ...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Mike Taylor wrote:

Yes perfectly legal and acceptable practice
The construction industry is, contrary to popular belief, coming round
to
the 20th Century. (still a way to catch up to the 21st I know)
What is the problem with plastic pipes?

well in another 60 years we will probably find out :-)

He should just read the current threads on this Lego material.

Proper pipes are made of wood.

A friend of mine went to work for the gas company in Sydney in Australia in
the 1970s. Around the harbour bridge they still had bamboo pipes under the
ground. he didn't have a clue on how to join it.

I doubt he is alone.

Come'on tell us, how do you join them?

tim





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"tim" wrote in message
...

"IMM" wrote in message
...

"The Natural Philosopher" wrote in message
...
Mike Taylor wrote:

Yes perfectly legal and acceptable practice
The construction industry is, contrary to popular belief, coming
round
to
the 20th Century. (still a way to catch up to the 21st I know)
What is the problem with plastic pipes?

well in another 60 years we will probably find out :-)

He should just read the current threads on this Lego material.

Proper pipes are made of wood.

A friend of mine went to work for the gas company in Sydney in Australia
in
the 1970s. Around the harbour bridge they still had bamboo pipes under
the
ground. he didn't have a clue on how to join it.

I doubt he is alone.

Come'on tell us, how do you join them?

tim

If my memory is right, I think he said using tar or some other similar
stuff. he always ripped it out as far as he could.


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In article , IMM
writes

See now here's a case in point John, *most* of the comments are positive
and the catastrophic failure as you call it was caused by a
manufacturing defect, try and be objective and you will start to be more
credible, the first step to being cured is accepting that you have a
problem, at least you're admitting that new builds are all

"all" new bulids? My, my.

Yes like all house in Germany have flues going through the roof, if you
can generalise so can I, so my, my yourself

using plastic
pipe now so that's something 4/10

I find it amazing!! A rank amateur is lecturing me. Amazing! Get therapy
please. The NHS still do it free.

I'll add rank amateur to the list, and as per usual you resort to this
diatribe when you've lost the argument, that's what makes you so easy to
spot through your various pseudonyms, you must really get a new act.
--
David

"David" wrote in message
...
In article , IMM
writes

See now here's a case in point John, *most* of the comments are
positive
and the catastrophic failure as you call it was caused by a
manufacturing defect, try and be objective and you will start to be
more
credible, the first step to being cured is accepting that you have a
problem, at least you're admitting that new builds are all

"all" new bulids? My, my.

Yes like all house in Germany have flues going through the roof, if you
can generalise so can I, so my, my yourself

using plastic
pipe now so that's something 4/10

I find it amazing!! A rank amateur is lecturing me. Amazing! Get
therapy
please. The NHS still do it free.

I'll add rank amateur to the list,

And that you are. Please get a life.

and as per usual you resort to this
diatribe when you've lost the argument,

No argument lost on my part my dear DIYer.


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Thanks to those who gave positive and helpful responses. Sadly, no thanks to
those who tried to start a flame war. As a new comer to this newsgroup I was
disappointed to see that such happenings, which often kill off newsgroups,
are prevalent here.
Anyway back to the topic...
I still don't really understand the pros and cons of plastic over copper
piping.
For example:
How do you join it and is it easier to join and repair than copper and are
the joints more trust worthy over time or not?
I guess an advantage would be that it might absorb acoustic noise better
than cooper but what are the negatives.
The deterioration of copper over time is well known but what about plastic
carrying hot water over, say, 20 years. Better or worse or as I suspect not
proven.
This is the sort of factual information I was hoping to get and would be
grateful to receive good advise on .
Thanks again
Dave




"David" wrote in message
.. .
New to this forum so hope this is not OT.
I visited the site of a new house I am interested in buying which hasn't
been completed and was really surprised to see that there seemed to be
"plastic" hoses for the water supply in the garage area where I would have
suspected to see copper piping. I couldn't see what was used in the rest
of
the house but is this really what builders are using these days??
This was not some cheap cheap place but what was described as a 5 bed, 3
bath exec home.
Anyone care to say if this is usual nowadays?
I'm surpassed its even legal.
Thanks
Dave

David wrote:

Thanks to those who gave positive and helpful responses. Sadly, no thanks to
those who tried to start a flame war. As a new comer to this newsgroup I was
disappointed to see that such happenings, which often kill off newsgroups,
are prevalent here.

Don't be too hard on IMM - he may be a troll, but he's *our*
troll. He keeps other trolls away, and his responses/flame wars
are so predictable they're like an old pair of slippers.


I still don't really understand the pros and cons of plastic over copper
piping.

Plastic pros:
# Can go round bends easily. This can cut down on the number of
joins hugely.
# Won't burst when it freezes.

Copper pros:
# Cheap
# Proven techology
# Looks better


How do you join it and is it easier to join and repair than copper and are
the joints more trust worthy over time or not?

It's important not to confuse the advantages of plastic pipe
with the advantages of pushfit connectors. Pushfit can be used
on both plastic and copper pipe. But plastic pipe can only be
joined using either pushfit or compression, whereas copper can
also be soldered.

Most plastic installations will use pushfit. A lot of modern
copper installations also use pushfit. Pushfit's advantages are
that it's much quicker than soldering, and can be done by less
skilled labour.

There's a large range of pushfit connectors avialable; plastic
bodied, steel bodied and copper bodied. They all make use of
rubber O rings for the seal. It is the life of this rubber O
ring which is the main source of concern over the longevity of
pushfit connectors.

Most reasonable people think that the life will be such that it
won't matter - most houses get replumbed periodically anyway.
About 30-40 years seems to be a reasonable assumption.



I guess an advantage would be that it might absorb acoustic noise better

Not really an issue.


The deterioration of copper over time is well known but what about plastic
carrying hot water over, say, 20 years. Better or worse or as I suspect not
proven.

Not proven is the answer. But given how well LDPE lasts carrying
mains water burried in soil (I dug up some 30 year old LDPE in
very good condition a couple of years ago), I don't believe this
is likely to be a problem.

Does that answer your questions?

--
Grunff

Grunff,
Thanks for a very comprehensive and helpful reply. You have restored my
faith in this newsgroup.
Dave

"Grunff" wrote in message
...
David wrote:

Thanks to those who gave positive and helpful responses. Sadly, no
thanks to
those who tried to start a flame war. As a new comer to this newsgroup I
was
disappointed to see that such happenings, which often kill off
newsgroups,
are prevalent here.

Don't be too hard on IMM - he may be a troll, but he's *our*
troll. He keeps other trolls away, and his responses/flame wars
are so predictable they're like an old pair of slippers.


I still don't really understand the pros and cons of plastic over copper
piping.

Plastic pros:
# Can go round bends easily. This can cut down on the number of
joins hugely.
# Won't burst when it freezes.

Copper pros:
# Cheap
# Proven techology
# Looks better


How do you join it and is it easier to join and repair than copper and
are
the joints more trust worthy over time or not?

It's important not to confuse the advantages of plastic pipe
with the advantages of pushfit connectors. Pushfit can be used
on both plastic and copper pipe. But plastic pipe can only be
joined using either pushfit or compression, whereas copper can
also be soldered.

Most plastic installations will use pushfit. A lot of modern
copper installations also use pushfit. Pushfit's advantages are
that it's much quicker than soldering, and can be done by less
skilled labour.

There's a large range of pushfit connectors avialable; plastic
bodied, steel bodied and copper bodied. They all make use of
rubber O rings for the seal. It is the life of this rubber O
ring which is the main source of concern over the longevity of
pushfit connectors.

Most reasonable people think that the life will be such that it
won't matter - most houses get replumbed periodically anyway.
About 30-40 years seems to be a reasonable assumption.



I guess an advantage would be that it might absorb acoustic noise better

Not really an issue.


The deterioration of copper over time is well known but what about
plastic
carrying hot water over, say, 20 years. Better or worse or as I suspect
not
proven.

Not proven is the answer. But given how well LDPE lasts carrying
mains water burried in soil (I dug up some 30 year old LDPE in
very good condition a couple of years ago), I don't believe this
is likely to be a problem.

Does that answer your questions?

--
Grunff

David wrote:

Grunff,
Thanks for a very comprehensive and helpful reply. You have restored my
faith in this newsgroup.

Glad I could help.

I've gotta say, this group has one of the best signal/noise
ratios I've seen in a newsgroup, in addition to some of the most
knowledgeable and intelligent people around. I really don't know
what I'd do without it.

--
Grunff

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:12:51 +0100, "David"
wrote:

Anyway back to the topic...
I still don't really understand the pros and cons of plastic over copper
piping.

Manufacturers of plastic systems are guaranteeing against defects in
manufacturing or materials for 50 years based on 20 years of actual
operational experience and probably accelerated life testing.

e.g.

http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk/BiTitesguide03.html

Manufacturers of copper products do not seem to do that but probably
because they do not feel a need to do so since the perception is that
they will have a very long lifetime.

In neither case do the manufacturers guarantee against defective
installation, and it is likely that this is the most common cause of
failure in both cases.

Plastic is generally rather quicker to install and the flexibility of
the pipe to bend through awkward places is helpful. It is more
expensive to buy than copper products, but the time saved may well
justify it.


For example:
How do you join it and is it easier to join and repair than copper and are
the joints more trust worthy over time or not?

It really depends on who you are and how adept you are. Plastic
pipes are joined with couplers in the same way as copper pipes are.

With plastic, they are quick push fit fittings which require only the
proper pipe cutter to do a good job.

With copper, you have the choice of soldered copper in either end feed
(cheapest) or solder ring types; push fit or compression fittings.

For most people, learning to solder pipe fittings is not that
difficult and once a few have been done it is reasonably quick.
Most of the time is in cutting, bending and fitting the pipe.
Compression fittings are easy to work with but cost rather more.

As to trustworthiness, all types of joints are in essence mechanical
in nature, but implemented in different ways. The plastic system
manufacturers will argue that properly installed and under normal
operating conditions and with some margin, their fittings will stand
the test of time. The guarantees offered would tend to suggest that
they have done their homework. With the correct temperature and
pressure safety devices in place, plastic pipes will not be subjected
to conditions near their maximum ratings.



I guess an advantage would be that it might absorb acoustic noise better
than cooper but what are the negatives.

When hot water is carried, the plastic pipes do need to be supported
at more frequent positions or they will tend to sag.

I have not noticed that there is any appreciable difference as far as
noise is concerned.


The deterioration of copper over time is well known but what about plastic
carrying hot water over, say, 20 years. Better or worse or as I suspect not
proven.

There is about 20 years experience, which appears to be enough to make
manufacturers comfortable in offering 50 year guarantees. It would
be somewhat foolhardy to do that if they were not comfortable with the
supporting data.

It then depends on whether people are prepared to accept that and the
results of accelerated life tests or prefer to wait to see actual
operational experience.

As always, the likely deciders are going to be overall cost of
implementation by professional purchasers of the products.


This is the sort of factual information I was hoping to get and would be
grateful to receive good advise on .
Thanks again
Dave




"David" wrote in message
. ..
New to this forum so hope this is not OT.
I visited the site of a new house I am interested in buying which hasn't
been completed and was really surprised to see that there seemed to be
"plastic" hoses for the water supply in the garage area where I would have
suspected to see copper piping. I couldn't see what was used in the rest
of
the house but is this really what builders are using these days??
This was not some cheap cheap place but what was described as a 5 bed, 3
bath exec home.
Anyone care to say if this is usual nowadays?
I'm surpassed its even legal.
Thanks
Dave




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Hi Grunff
In .net you wrote:
Thanks for a very comprehensive and helpful reply. You have restored my
faith in this newsgroup.

Glad I could help.

I've gotta say, this group has one of the best signal/noise
ratios I've seen in a newsgroup, in addition to some of the most
knowledgeable and intelligent people around. I really don't know
what I'd do without it.

I'll just chip in with my 2p.
I've been reading and asking the occasional question for a few months now.
Although the vast majority of discussions and posts have nothing I can put
straight to use it's all being filed away for future reference, when I have a
proper house.

Keep up the good work guys (and gals!)

--
Fishter
unhook to mail me | http://www.fishter.org.uk/
You make me doubt the validity of natural selection

"David" wrote in message
.. .
Thanks to those who gave positive and helpful responses. Sadly, no thanks
to
those who tried to start a flame war. As a new comer to this newsgroup I
was
disappointed to see that such happenings, which often kill off newsgroups,
are prevalent here.
Anyway back to the topic...
I still don't really understand the pros and cons of plastic over copper
piping.
For example:

How do you join it and is it easier to join and repair than copper and are
the joints more trust worthy over time or not?

Joints are childsplay (Speedfit is made by a toy maker). In most cases you
push in the pipe and that is it. There are brass and copper pushfit fitting
for copper pipe. This is the better pushfit method. Copper pipe does not
sag when hot. Plastic is better suited for cold supplies.

I guess an advantage would be that it might absorb acoustic noise better
than cooper but what are the negatives.

I have not noticed any real difference.

The deterioration of copper over time is well known but what about plastic
carrying hot water over, say, 20 years. Better or worse or as I suspect
not
proven.

Some has been around for 20 years, but fitting design changes by the year
(If my memory is correct, Hepworth are in their 3rd re-design), so not
proven. Copper will not deteriorate if treated correctly.

This is the sort of factual information I was hoping to get and would be
grateful to receive good advise on .
Thanks again
Dave



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Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/2003

On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:40:56 +0100, Grunff wrote:

I've gotta say, this group has one of the best signal/noise
ratios I've seen in a newsgroup, in addition to some of the most
knowledgeable and intelligent people around. I really don't know
what I'd do without it.

Agreed.

PoP

Andy,
Been away from my PC all weekend so just seen your post. Very valuable. Many
thanks.
Dave
"Andy Hall" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 25 Oct 2003 18:12:51 +0100, "David"
wrote:

Anyway back to the topic...
I still don't really understand the pros and cons of plastic over copper
piping.

Manufacturers of plastic systems are guaranteeing against defects in
manufacturing or materials for 50 years based on 20 years of actual
operational experience and probably accelerated life testing.

e.g.

http://www.hepworthplumbing.co.uk/BiTitesguide03.html

Manufacturers of copper products do not seem to do that but probably
because they do not feel a need to do so since the perception is that
they will have a very long lifetime.

In neither case do the manufacturers guarantee against defective
installation, and it is likely that this is the most common cause of
failure in both cases.

Plastic is generally rather quicker to install and the flexibility of
the pipe to bend through awkward places is helpful. It is more
expensive to buy than copper products, but the time saved may well
justify it.


For example:
How do you join it and is it easier to join and repair than copper and
are
the joints more trust worthy over time or not?

It really depends on who you are and how adept you are. Plastic
pipes are joined with couplers in the same way as copper pipes are.

With plastic, they are quick push fit fittings which require only the
proper pipe cutter to do a good job.

With copper, you have the choice of soldered copper in either end feed
(cheapest) or solder ring types; push fit or compression fittings.

For most people, learning to solder pipe fittings is not that
difficult and once a few have been done it is reasonably quick.
Most of the time is in cutting, bending and fitting the pipe.
Compression fittings are easy to work with but cost rather more.

As to trustworthiness, all types of joints are in essence mechanical
in nature, but implemented in different ways. The plastic system
manufacturers will argue that properly installed and under normal
operating conditions and with some margin, their fittings will stand
the test of time. The guarantees offered would tend to suggest that
they have done their homework. With the correct temperature and
pressure safety devices in place, plastic pipes will not be subjected
to conditions near their maximum ratings.



I guess an advantage would be that it might absorb acoustic noise better
than cooper but what are the negatives.

When hot water is carried, the plastic pipes do need to be supported
at more frequent positions or they will tend to sag.

I have not noticed that there is any appreciable difference as far as
noise is concerned.


The deterioration of copper over time is well known but what about
plastic
carrying hot water over, say, 20 years. Better or worse or as I suspect
not
proven.

There is about 20 years experience, which appears to be enough to make
manufacturers comfortable in offering 50 year guarantees. It would
be somewhat foolhardy to do that if they were not comfortable with the
supporting data.

It then depends on whether people are prepared to accept that and the
results of accelerated life tests or prefer to wait to see actual
operational experience.

As always, the likely deciders are going to be overall cost of
implementation by professional purchasers of the products.


This is the sort of factual information I was hoping to get and would be
grateful to receive good advise on .
Thanks again
Dave




"David" wrote in message
. ..
New to this forum so hope this is not OT.
I visited the site of a new house I am interested in buying which
hasn't
been completed and was really surprised to see that there seemed to be
"plastic" hoses for the water supply in the garage area where I would
have
suspected to see copper piping. I couldn't see what was used in the
rest
of
the house but is this really what builders are using these days??
This was not some cheap cheap place but what was described as a 5 bed,
3
bath exec home.
Anyone care to say if this is usual nowadays?
I'm surpassed its even legal.
Thanks
Dave




.andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

IMM,
Thanks for all this valuable stuff
Very grateful
Dave
"IMM" wrote in message
...

"David" wrote in message
.. .
Thanks to those who gave positive and helpful responses. Sadly, no
thanks
to
those who tried to start a flame war. As a new comer to this newsgroup I
was
disappointed to see that such happenings, which often kill off
newsgroups,
are prevalent here.
Anyway back to the topic...
I still don't really understand the pros and cons of plastic over copper
piping.
For example:

How do you join it and is it easier to join and repair than copper and
are
the joints more trust worthy over time or not?

Joints are childsplay (Speedfit is made by a toy maker). In most cases you
push in the pipe and that is it. There are brass and copper pushfit
fitting
for copper pipe. This is the better pushfit method. Copper pipe does not
sag when hot. Plastic is better suited for cold supplies.

I guess an advantage would be that it might absorb acoustic noise better
than cooper but what are the negatives.

I have not noticed any real difference.

The deterioration of copper over time is well known but what about
plastic
carrying hot water over, say, 20 years. Better or worse or as I suspect
not
proven.

Some has been around for 20 years, but fitting design changes by the year
(If my memory is correct, Hepworth are in their 3rd re-design), so not
proven. Copper will not deteriorate if treated correctly.

This is the sort of factual information I was hoping to get and would be
grateful to receive good advise on .
Thanks again
Dave



---
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Version: 6.0.524 / Virus Database: 321 - Release Date: 06/10/2003