I've just pulled this fire extinguisher out of the engine compartment of
a second-hand boat:

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/extinguisher.jpg
(and also flipped for ease of reading:
http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/extin...upsidedown.jpg )

I know nothing about the care and feeding of fire extinguishers.

Presumably this is out of date; does that matter? (there are no
regulatory requirements here AFAIK). The pressure is still just about in
the green, so is it worth putting back as better than nothing? I
probably wouldn't buy a new one; the engine fire protection on most
boats consists simply of a small hole to poke the cabin extinguisher
nozzle through.

Is it likely to go pop on its own? Should I be handling it carefully?
Presumably the red capsule in the frame is designed to melt in a fire;
is it otherwise delicate and likely to redecorate my living room if
someone knocks it over on the table it's sitting on?

If I decided to get it serviced, how much is that likely to be and where
does one go? Can I service it myself?

If I decide to get rid of it, how? I assume just chucking it in the
wheelie bin is frowned upon.

Cheers,

Pete

On Dec 13, 4:11*pm, Pete Verdon
d wrote:
I've just pulled this fire extinguisher out of the engine compartment of
* a second-hand boat:

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/extinguisher.jpg
(and also flipped for ease of reading:http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/extin...upsidedown.jpg)

I know nothing about the care and feeding of fire extinguishers.

Presumably this is out of date; does that matter? (there are no
regulatory requirements here AFAIK).

not in the least

The pressure is still just about in
the green,

good to go then

so is it worth putting back as better than nothing? I
probably wouldn't buy a new one; the engine fire protection on most
boats consists simply of a small hole to poke the cabin extinguisher
nozzle through.

Is it likely to go pop on its own?

no

Should I be handling it carefully?

its pressurised, treat it like any other high pressure container

Presumably the red capsule in the frame is designed to melt in a fire;
is it otherwise delicate and likely to redecorate my living room if
someone knocks it over on the table it's sitting on?

If I decided to get it serviced, how much is that likely to be and where
does one go?

there's really no point if its still pressurised.

Can I service it myself?

I dont know what the aqueous foam composition is. If it were just
water then its easy enough.


If I decide to get rid of it, how? I assume just chucking it in the
wheelie bin is frowned upon.

give it away


NT

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:11:22 +0000, Pete Verdon
d wrote:

I've just pulled this fire extinguisher out of the engine compartment of
a second-hand boat:

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/extinguisher.jpg
(and also flipped for ease of reading:
http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/extin...upsidedown.jpg )

I know nothing about the care and feeding of fire extinguishers.

Presumably this is out of date; does that matter? (there are no
regulatory requirements here AFAIK). The pressure is still just about in
the green, so is it worth putting back as better than nothing? I
probably wouldn't buy a new one; the engine fire protection on most
boats consists simply of a small hole to poke the cabin extinguisher
nozzle through.

Is it likely to go pop on its own? Should I be handling it carefully?
Presumably the red capsule in the frame is designed to melt in a fire;
is it otherwise delicate and likely to redecorate my living room if
someone knocks it over on the table it's sitting on?

If I decided to get it serviced, how much is that likely to be and where
does one go? Can I service it myself?

If I decide to get rid of it, how? I assume just chucking it in the
wheelie bin is frowned upon.

Cheers,

Pete

Given the date on it I'd be inclined to do anything except nothing...

.Yellow Pages for your locality will have loads of places listed who
could advise you what the best course of action would be and dispose
of it if that is what is required . .

I'm confused by what you ask about the "red capsule in the frame
melting in a fire )...Can't see it but can't see what good that would
do as the foam would probably go everywhere but where it was most
useful. Modern extinguishers appear to be made with the usual
squeezable handles .This looks more like the old type you turned
upside down and hit the button on a surface like the floor to operate
it .

http://www.actfire.co.uk/category/extinguishers/foam/

AFAIK the only ones you can refill yourself are the water ones with
the replaceable gas canister inside .

I'd suggest you get a modern one suitable for use on a boat .

I've just pulled this fire extinguisher out of the engine compartment of
a second-hand boat:

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/extinguisher.jpg
(and also flipped for ease of reading:
http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/extin...upsidedown.jpg )

I know nothing about the care and feeding of fire extinguishers.

Presumably this is out of date; does that matter? (there are no
regulatory requirements here AFAIK). The pressure is still just about in
the green, so is it worth putting back as better than nothing? I
probably wouldn't buy a new one; the engine fire protection on most
boats consists simply of a small hole to poke the cabin extinguisher
nozzle through.

Is it likely to go pop on its own? Should I be handling it carefully?
Presumably the red capsule in the frame is designed to melt in a fire;
is it otherwise delicate and likely to redecorate my living room if
someone knocks it over on the table it's sitting on?

If I decided to get it serviced, how much is that likely to be and where
does one go? Can I service it myself?

If I decide to get rid of it, how? I assume just chucking it in the
wheelie bin is frowned upon.

Cheers,

Pete

Given the date on it I'd be inclined to do anything except nothing...

.Yellow Pages for your locality will have loads of places listed who
could advise you what the best course of action would be and dispose
of it if that is what is required . .

I'm confused by what you ask about the "red capsule in the frame
melting in a fire )...Can't see it but can't see what good that would
do as the foam would probably go everywhere but where it was most
useful. Modern extinguishers appear to be made with the usual
squeezable handles .This looks more like the old type you turned
upside down and hit the button on a surface like the floor to operate
it .

Think "self contained automatic sprinkler system" and you'll have
a better idea.

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

I've just pulled this fire extinguisher out of the engine compartment of
*a second-hand boat:

Modern extinguishers appear to be made with the usual
squeezable handles .This looks more like the old type you turned
upside down and hit the button on a surface like the floor to operate
it .

Think "self contained automatic sprinkler system" and you'll have
a better idea.

an old one then


NT

That's an AFFF with a revolving head, temperature activated.
Basically above a certain temperature the foam comes out and is
sprayed around the compartment. Sort of like a fire activated
sprinkler head (which whirls round in the jet of water creating a
spray).

I suspect the modern version is a pressurised tube type (Firetrace and
others), the tube melts at the locality of the fire and distributes
"whatever" all over it until exhausted. They are very expensive, about
£120-180 as I recall. Beware using powder on metals like aluminium,
they will put the fire out - but at the expense of that item
usually :-)

AFFF foam do not "go off" in the way that powder do - which settle and
go rigid inside thus are important to service often.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 18:02:31 +0000, Usenet Nutter
wrote:

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:11:22 +0000, Pete Verdon
wrote:



Given the date on it I'd be inclined to do anything except nothing...

Why? It is a low pressure extinguisher with a benign and stable
extinguishing agent.

.Yellow Pages for your locality will have loads of places listed who
could advise you what the best course of action would be and dispose
of it if that is what is required . .

If you want to dispose of it simply set it off, neither propellant
(probably compressed air) nor extinguishing agent are harmful.

I'm confused by what you ask about the "red capsule in the frame
melting in a fire )...Can't see it but can't see what good that would
do as the foam would probably go everywhere

That's the idea, AFFF is very effective.

but where it was most
useful. Modern extinguishers appear to be made with the usual
squeezable handles .This looks more like the old type you turned
upside down and hit the button on a surface like the floor to operate
it .

Nothing like.

I'd suggest you get a modern one suitable for use on a boat .

Its about as good as you can get for the role, far better than dry
powder.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 16:11:22 +0000, Pete Verdon
d wrote:

I've just pulled this fire extinguisher out of the engine compartment of
a second-hand boat:

http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/extinguisher.jpg
(and also flipped for ease of reading:
http://pverdon.csoft.net/stuff/extin...upsidedown.jpg )

Rather a nice Aqueous Film Forming Foam extinguisher which would
originally have been quite expensive.

Presumably this is out of date; does that matter?

Not really.

The pressure is still just about in
the green, so is it worth putting back as better than nothing?

Absolutely, it is a great deal better than nothing. You can usually
re pressurise them using a compressed air line and the filling port on
the control head (You can just see it in the side away from the
monitor in your pictures).

Is it likely to go pop on its own?

No, it uses air at moderate pressure as the propellant.

Should I be handling it carefully?

Well you shouldn't drop it on the control head or you may get wet.

Presumably the red capsule in the frame is designed to melt in a fire;

Yes. The water then gets spread by the sprinkler head design. AFFF
is very safe and effective.

is it otherwise delicate and likely to redecorate my living room if
someone knocks it over on the table it's sitting on?

Depends how far it falls and what on to!

If I decided to get it serviced, how much is that likely to be and where
does one go? Can I service it myself?

No servicing is really required other than making sure it is all
clean,- pressure you can do it yourself but you might need to find
someone with some odd bits of pneumatics to find something to fit the
filler port. IF you do service it the AFFF is a liquid you can decant
(Water with AFFF concentrate added) and needs no particular handling
precautions, check the inside of the cylinder for corrosion, there
shouldn't be any, clean up valves, replace extinguishing agent, re
pressurise.

If I decide to get rid of it, how?

Set it off on the lawn. AFFF is quite benign.

Usenet Nutter wrote:

I'm confused by what you ask about the "red capsule in the frame
melting in a fire )...Can't see it

Sorry, yes, I kind of had a choice of capturing the gauge or the capsule
but not both. I assumed that someone knowledgeable in extinguishers
would know what I was talking about.

but can't see what good that would do as the foam would probably go
everywhere but where it was most useful. Modern extinguishers appear
to be made with the usual squeezable handles .This looks more like
the old type you turned upside down and hit the button on a surface
like the floor to operate it .

What I didn't make clear was that this is an automatic extinguisher,
mounted in the engine bay to go off if a fire occurs. So no handles, and
yes the foam will go everywhere - that's the point. It's a very small
space and mostly full of engine; a litre's worth of foam would give a
pretty thorough covering I'd have thought.

I'd suggest you get a modern one suitable for use on a boat .

There are two other manual fire extinguishers on this 24 foot boat.
These I'll treat as "primary" devices and make sure they're up to
scratch; the auto foam one was a kind of bonus. I'm not sure if the
previous owner even knew it existed; it was pretty hidden away out of
sight, and I only found it because I was disconnecting the engine before
removing it for overhaul. The date on it is prior to his ownership of
the boat.

Pete

Peter Parry wrote:
d wrote:

Rather a nice Aqueous Film Forming Foam extinguisher which would
originally have been quite expensive.

Thanks - sounds like you know what you're talking about :-)

Presumably the red capsule in the frame is designed to melt in a fire;
[...]
is it otherwise delicate and likely to redecorate my living room if
someone knocks it over on the table it's sitting on?

Depends how far it falls and what on to!

I was actually talking specifically about the red capsule. It makes me
slightly nervous just wedged in there between the vent and the frame;
I'm worried about it either coming out or breaking (or me popping it out
while playing with it, to be honest!)

No servicing is really required other than making sure it is all
clean,-

There's a bit of corrosion on the valve. I'm nervous of doing anything
to it in case I set it off :-) At least until I know how robustly the
capsule is seated, which I can't really find out without dislodging it.

pressure you can do it yourself but you might need to find
someone with some odd bits of pneumatics to find something to fit the
filler port.

I have a mate with an air compressor. He probably doesn't have a wide
range of odd fittings though. I suppose in extremis I could always go
and visit my grandad and reactivate the lathe in his shed[1].

I think in practice I'll just put it back where it came from. The only
problem I could forsee is internal corrosion causing the bottle to let
go one day; you suggest that's unlikely and certainly it looks in good
nick externally. Presumably in the event that that did happen (or it
went off for some other reason) the AFFF isn't going to damage anything
and could just be cleaned up?

Finally, what about mounting angle? Presumably it's meant to be mounted
upside down, hence the label and the head that will spray outwards in
all directions. On the boat, it's mounted horizontally on the deckhead
(ceiling, for the landlubbers :-) ). Would this mean that only half of
the foam would come out, or is there likely to be some kind of dip tube
inside? I could try to mount it vertically, but that would probably put
the head lower than what it was supposed to protect, and an engine in
the way.

Cheers,

Pete

[1] He's offered it to me a couple of times, and while I'd love to play
with it I don't actually have a need, and I certainly don't have the
space. I'll make sure it's hung onto when he passes on though.

On Sun, 13 Dec 2009 23:15:08 +0000, Pete Verdon
d wrote:



I was actually talking specifically about the red capsule. It makes me
slightly nervous just wedged in there between the vent and the frame;
I'm worried about it either coming out or breaking (or me popping it out
while playing with it, to be honest!

No servicing is really required other than making sure it is all
clean,-

There's a bit of corrosion on the valve. I'm nervous of doing anything
to it in case I set it off :-) At least until I know how robustly the
capsule is seated, which I can't really find out without dislodging it.

pressure you can do it yourself but you might need to find
someone with some odd bits of pneumatics to find something to fit the
filler port.

I have a mate with an air compressor. He probably doesn't have a wide
range of odd fittings though. I suppose in extremis I could always go
and visit my grandad and reactivate the lathe in his shed[1].

I think in practice I'll just put it back where it came from. The only
problem I could forsee is internal corrosion causing the bottle to let
go one day; you suggest that's unlikely and certainly it looks in good
nick externally. Presumably in the event that that did happen (or it
went off for some other reason) the AFFF isn't going to damage anything
and could just be cleaned up?

Finally, what about mounting angle? Presumably it's meant to be mounted
upside down, hence the label and the head that will spray outwards in
all directions. On the boat, it's mounted horizontally on the deckhead
(ceiling, for the landlubbers :-) ). Would this mean that only half of
the foam would come out, or is there likely to be some kind of dip tube
inside? I could try to mount it vertically, but that would probably put
the head lower than what it was supposed to protect, and an engine in
the way.

Cheers,

Pete

[1] He's offered it to me a couple of times, and while I'd love to play
with it I don't actually have a need, and I certainly don't have the
space. I'll make sure it's hung onto when he passes on though.


These capsules are normally glass and contain a liquid (can't remember
the make-up now) think it's just dyed water. As the temperature in the
compartment is raised, the liquid in the capsule expands until it
reaches the critical temperature, when it shatters, thus releasing the
valve. The foam then spurts out and redecorates your living room. So
don't keep it in a hot room.

If it is out of date and it's going to be re-used, take it to a proper
servicing agent, fire is not something to mess about with and just
hope it will be OK, especially in a boat. What price death? We used a
lot of these in the RN and were all trained in fire fighting but
wanted the kit to be top line.

This type is preferably fitted upside down but will work just as well
horizontally. The pressure in the beast will eject all of the foam.
When the foam is exuded it will spread itself out across the
compartment, smothering everything. The pressure and design of the
nozzle will spray most of it across the compartment but also, when the
foam lands, it will continue to spread itself out and smother the
fire. Not sure what the foaming agent is now but at one time it was Ox
Blood.

On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:15:50 +0000, Old Git
wrote:

This type is preferably fitted upside down but will work just as well
horizontally. The pressure in the beast will eject all of the foam.
When the foam is exuded it will spread itself out across the
compartment, smothering everything. The pressure and design of the
nozzle will spray most of it across the compartment but also, when the
foam lands, it will continue to spread itself out and smother the
fire. Not sure what the foaming agent is now but at one time it was Ox
Blood.

Ox blood derived foam was the evil smelling yellow Protein Foam.
Aqueous Film Forming Foam is quite different. It doesn't come out as
a thick foam but more like water with a bit of washing up liquid
added. It works by forming a film across the fuel surface so isn't
that good on machinery fires (too many bits sticking out) but really
good on pooled fuel. In an engine room its main use in a fixed
extinguisher is to cover fuel on the floor with extinguishing agent so
spilled fuel does not ignite.

It has the secondary advantage that it is non-corrosive and very
simple to clean off (just rinse with fresh water) so you don't get any
damage from the extinguisher (unlike Protein Foam which started to rot
after a few days and in the bilges would render a vessel uninhabitable
in a week in a warm climate!).

In article , Peter Parry
writes
On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:15:50 +0000, Old Git
wrote:

This type is preferably fitted upside down but will work just as well
horizontally. The pressure in the beast will eject all of the foam.
When the foam is exuded it will spread itself out across the
compartment, smothering everything. The pressure and design of the
nozzle will spray most of it across the compartment but also, when the
foam lands, it will continue to spread itself out and smother the
fire. Not sure what the foaming agent is now but at one time it was Ox
Blood.

Ox blood derived foam was the evil smelling yellow Protein Foam.
Aqueous Film Forming Foam is quite different. It doesn't come out as
a thick foam but more like water with a bit of washing up liquid
added. It works by forming a film across the fuel surface so isn't
that good on machinery fires (too many bits sticking out) but really
good on pooled fuel. In an engine room its main use in a fixed
extinguisher is to cover fuel on the floor with extinguishing agent so
spilled fuel does not ignite.

It has the secondary advantage that it is non-corrosive and very
simple to clean off (just rinse with fresh water) so you don't get any
damage from the extinguisher (unlike Protein Foam which started to rot
after a few days and in the bilges would render a vessel uninhabitable
in a week in a warm climate!).

Any comments on the likely success of operation when not inverted?
Having seen the way these heads work in sprinkler systems I'd be
surprised if a satisfactory result came from horizontal mounting. Would
it deploy fully on its side?
--
fred
BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs

In message
Peter Parry wrote:

On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 17:15:50 +0000, Old Git
wrote:

This type is preferably fitted upside down but will work just as well
horizontally. The pressure in the beast will eject all of the foam.
When the foam is exuded it will spread itself out across the
compartment, smothering everything. The pressure and design of the
nozzle will spray most of it across the compartment but also, when the
foam lands, it will continue to spread itself out and smother the
fire. Not sure what the foaming agent is now but at one time it was Ox
Blood.

Ox blood derived foam was the evil smelling yellow Protein Foam.

I've just found another use for ox blood ;-) the other was:
During the construction of the Pontcysyllte Aqueduct the mortar
used comprised of lime, water and ox blood.

Strange the things you can learn on UKDIY.

Stephen.



--
http://www.stephen.hull.btinternet.co.uk
Coach painting tips and techniques + Land Rover colour codes
Using a British RISC Operating System 100% immune to any Windows virus
"Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble". Henry Royce

On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:35:19 +0000, fred wrote:


Any comments on the likely success of operation when not inverted?
Having seen the way these heads work in sprinkler systems I'd be
surprised if a satisfactory result came from horizontal mounting. Would
it deploy fully on its side?

It would be less effective on its side. The AFFF would still prevent
fire developing in fuel pools where it had coverage but if the engine
room floor has strakes then some area may not be covered allowing fire
to develop.

In article , Peter Parry
writes
On Mon, 14 Dec 2009 18:35:19 +0000, fred wrote:


Any comments on the likely success of operation when not inverted?
Having seen the way these heads work in sprinkler systems I'd be
surprised if a satisfactory result came from horizontal mounting. Would
it deploy fully on its side?

It would be less effective on its side. The AFFF would still prevent
fire developing in fuel pools where it had coverage but if the engine
room floor has strakes then some area may not be covered allowing fire
to develop.

I still think it would only half deploy if used on its side (pressure
lost without expelling liquid once fluid dropped below the outlet).
--
fred
BBC3, ITV2/3/4, channels going to the DOGs

Old Git wrote:

If it is out of date and it's going to be re-used, take it to a proper
servicing agent, fire is not something to mess about with

Point taken, but bear in mind that 90% of small pleasure craft have no
automatic engine compartment extinguisher at all. I've sailed on many
yachts (everything from Army sail training to Caribbean charter) and
never knowingly on one with an engine extinguisher.

Standard equipment is a 1" teak ring with plastic bung fitted under the
companionway steps. In the event of fire, one is supposed to take a
cabin extinguisher and shove the nozzle through the ring, pushing out
the bung, and then let it off. This is acceptable to insurance
companies, the RNLI, the MCA, "coding" requirements for commercial
charter, etc etc etc. If my engineroom stowaway fails to do its thing, I
am no worse off than the thousands of people with the standard system.
There are two sizeable extinguishers (in date) within arm's reach of the
engine hatch, and since I'm working on the woodwork near the hatch I
plan to install the normal hole and bung irrespective of any automatic
system I may or may not have.

I only originally decided to post here to ask how to throw it away. The
question broadened as I wrote it, and then Peter convinced me that the
bottle is more use in the engine bay than my wheelie bin.

Pete

On Tue, 15 Dec 2009 00:02:28 +0000, fred wrote:

I still think it would only half deploy if used on its side (pressure
lost without expelling liquid once fluid dropped below the outlet).

It may not empty fully but it would certainly empty more than half as
the turbulence caused by the sudden pressure drop would cause more
than half the contents to be expelled when horizontal especially in a
fairly narrow container.