"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

An RCBO can be on a ring or a radial. Rings are still silly and cheap;

Silly no.

No one else adopted it except the Irish.

BS1362 plug and socket systems are in fairly common use around the world -
especially in countries where the UK has had a strong influence.

A common roundup would seem to include:

Sri Lanka, Bahrain, UAE, Qatar, Yemen, Oman, Cyprus, Malta, Gibraltar,
Botswana, Ghana, Hong Kong, Jordan, Macau, Brunei, Malaysia, Singapore,
Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria, Iraq, Tanzania, Zimbabwe, Belize, Dominica, St.
Lucia, St. Vincent, Grenada, and Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia? They have anything that goes.I have seen many types there.
No EU country want to know it except Ireland, who are tied to the apron
strings of the UK.

The requirement for a fused plug is nothing to do with the circuit
topology,

For a ring to safely work it needs the correct fuse in the plug.

but is a function of allowing a circuit to be protected at a significantly
higher current limit than the appliance.

An appliance fuse can offer the correct protection. I have seen appliance
fuses in France, whereas in the UK they would not be there. Ina ring with
32A mcb at the CU, needs the fuse in the plug for correct protection. Many
appliances that need 6A fuses have 13A in the plug. The system is open to
abuse. The fuse is primarily to protect the appliance cable.

Fused plugs are required on radial power circuits in this country for the
same reason.


The lack of plug fuses in continental systems limits the maximum circuit
current carrying capacity dramatically.

Which is a good thing as it gives more protection as an appliance on a ring
can be hopelessly out of protection range if such a simple thing like a 13A
fuse is installed, when say a 3A is needed.

This requires a proliferation of circuits to meet modern usage patterns,
resulting in more cost and complexity with no gain is performance or
safety (in fact with a reduction in safety).

Mr drivel detectoris on and identified some. A properly installed radial
system offers greater protection, especially with DP RCBOs.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Rings are still silly and cheap; one of the reasons they were
adopted.....and to have higher currents for electric heaters post war
as the nuclear policy was all electric, using unmetered nuclear power.

There never was 'unmetered' power in the UK - nor was it ever likely.

They proposed and it was on public info films. See one.

'They' propose lots of things there are votes in. Haven't you learned
anything?

snip drivel by an effing looney

So you think nuclear power stations costs nothing to build too?

Time you went back into treatment. Although that expensive German clinic
doesn't seem to have helped.

--
*I don't suffer from insanity -- I'm a carrier

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article
,
Owain wrote:
On 11 Nov, 22:34, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
There never was 'unmetered' power in the UK

Not quite true - there are unmetered connections, usually for
streetlighting etc, where the cost of metering would be
disproportionate.

Don't you start with the red herrings. ;-)

And that's only the legitimately unmetered connections, of course!

Owain

--
*I brake for no apparent reason.

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Tim W wrote:
You clearly have a little clue. No one else adopted our ring system.
Amazing eh!

IIRC our ring system was primarily adopted as a way to turn a couple of
15A radials into a 30A circuit with more 13A sockets on - ie an upgrade
path without the need to throw away a couple of perfectly good bits of
whatever the imperial of 2.5mm2 was. It also saved on copper.

Anyway, a system that allows loads of sockets, and upto 2 and a bit
heavy appliances and umpteen million trivial devices to be plugged in at
random locations without having to use a rediculously massive cable is a
pretty good system.

It's the envy of many. A pal visiting from the US couldn't believe just
how flexible it was - he'd been told we still used lots of different plug
sizes. And was most impressed with how quick you could boil water in an
electric kettle.

But all this thread shows is dribble knows even less about house wiring
than heating...

--
*Why doesn't glue stick to the inside of the bottle?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Rings are still silly and cheap; one
of the reasons they were adopted.....and to have higher currents for
electric heaters post war as the nuclear policy was all electric, using
unmetered nuclear power.

There never was 'unmetered' power in the UK - nor was it ever likely.

They proposed and it was on public info films. See one.

And would you care to tell us where unmetered power was actually provided?

The key word was "proposed". The nation was to be all electric, hence
electrical supplies to homes capable of heating the home electrically. The
dirty Gas industry, making gas from dirty coal with ugly gas works in urban
areas was to be scaled down. The downturn in nuclear because of accidents
and the discovery of North Sea Gas changed the strategy.

On Nov 12, 9:40*pm, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
Some device that isolates the L & N when it activates must offer a higher
level of safety.- Hide quoted text -

For TT - yes.

For TN-C-S - no, not at all.
With PME both N&E are joined at the cutout, so you just disconnect N
yet E is still connected - so no logic there. You must not isolate E
under BS7671 reg blah-blah-blah (can't recall the damn number). Three
pole isolators are for L1 L2 N not LNE (contrary to some numpties I've
met).

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You mean cheap. The drive towards electric heating post WW2 promoted
the ring. The advantage of the ring is that many sockets can be on the
ring. Great for offices with lots of computers.

That's one of the situations where you should dedicated radials, actually.
Please stick to what you know about. Which will make your posts brief in
the extreme.

--
*Even a blind pig stumbles across an acorn now and again *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Some device that isolates the L & N when it activates must offer a
higher level of safety.

Why not go the whole hog and isolate the earth too? Makes as much sense.

--
*Oh, what a tangled website we weave when first we practice *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"js.b1" wrote in message
...
MK MG MEM 1-module RCBO are typically £14-16-19 on Ebay for boxed new.
TLC do them for about £23 off the top of my head.

Comes down to the brand, quantity & person and which wholesaler.

14 RCBO can be had for £250 which is not that bad - consider how much
14 MCB and 3 100A RCD cost :-)


Even price-wise RCBOs appears the way to go.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Doctor Drivel wrote:

They

snip drivel by an effing looney

I followed

This one need effing tagging. One weirdo!

"ARWadsworth" wrote in message
. ..

"Doctor Drivel" wrote in message
...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...

Indeed. Which is why the DP devices are not used that often. The 17th
edition rules for cable protection made RCBOs more desirable (or at
least multiple RCDs[1]). The manufacturers have responded to that need
and also the one of conserving CU space by introducing far more
competitively priced single width SP RCBOs. These are still not exactly
cheap, but at under £20 in many cases are affordable. (still MCB prices
are under £2 in some cases now,

S/fix sells the cheapest RCBO at around £28. Les than £20? Where?



At an electrical wholesalers. I pay a lot less than £28 for RCBOs

Adam

I use S/fix as a guide as they were highly competitive. Not so now.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:


Why not go the whole hog and isolate the earth too? Makes as much sense.

That's what Space is for.

Doctor Drivel
wibbled on Thursday 12 November 2009 21:59


For a ring to safely work it needs the correct fuse in the plug.

That would be equally true of a radial that wasn't dedicated, and the
overcurrent protection set accordingly, to a single appliance or class of
appliance. In the most extreme case, a 32A radial is a "standard circuit",
though rare due to being not so practical to implement.

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Some device that isolates the L & N when it activates must offer a
higher level of safety.

Why not go the whole hog and isolate the earth too? Makes as much sense.

Oh my God! He must eff off for his own good.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
You mean cheap. The drive towards electric heating post WW2 promoted
the ring. The advantage of the ring is that many sockets can be on the
ring. Great for offices with lots of computers.

That's

Please eff off as you are a plantpot.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

There never was 'unmetered' power in the UK - nor was it ever likely.



But it is interesting to consider the impact that unmetered electricity
might have. Just how much electricity would we use if it were unmetered?
I can imagine having a lovely warm greenhouse with grow lights to
provide fresh fruit, vegetables and herbs all year round. (Carefully
avoiding light spill, of course.)

But I suppose eventually we'd end up using so much that there would be
literal global warming.

--
Rod

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Tim W wrote:
You clearly have a little clue. No one else adopted our ring system.
Amazing eh!

IIRC our ring system was primarily adopted as a way to turn a couple of
15A radials into a 30A circuit with more 13A sockets on - ie an upgrade
path without the need to throw away a couple of perfectly good bits of
whatever the imperial of 2.5mm2 was. It also saved on copper.

Anyway, a system that allows loads of sockets, and upto 2 and a bit
heavy appliances and umpteen million trivial devices to be plugged in at
random locations without having to use a rediculously massive cable is a
pretty good system.

It's

You must eff off as you are a plantpot.

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel
wibbled on Thursday 12 November 2009 21:59


For a ring to safely work it needs the correct fuse in the plug.

That would be equally true of a radial that wasn't dedicated, and the
overcurrent protection set accordingly, to a single appliance or class of
appliance. In the most extreme case, a 32A radial is a "standard circuit",
though rare due to being not so practical to implement.

A radial with only 8 sockets on it, maximum, and rated to 16A is safer when
abused. Some appliances can be only protected by a 32A mcb.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Rings are still silly and cheap; one of the reasons they were
adopted.....and to have higher currents for electric heaters post war
as the nuclear policy was all electric, using unmetered nuclear power.

There never was 'unmetered' power in the UK - nor was it ever likely.

They proposed and it was on public info films. See one.

'They'

Please eff off you are a plantpot.

In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The requirement for a fused plug is nothing to do with the circuit
topology,

For a ring to safely work it needs the correct fuse in the plug.

Please explain. Do you think a lighting outlet which is only fused at the
CU somehow 'safer' than a 13 amp socket?
Please demonstrate this with your finger...

--
*I didn't drive my husband crazy -- I flew him there -- it was faster

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

There never was 'unmetered' power in the UK - nor was it ever likely.



But it is interesting to consider the impact that unmetered electricity
might have. Just how much electricity would we use if it were unmetered? I
can imagine having a lovely warm greenhouse with grow lights to provide
fresh fruit, vegetables and herbs all year round. (Carefully avoiding
light spill, of course.)

But I suppose eventually we'd end up using so much that there would be
literal global warming.

Not if we implement tidal lagoons in the Irish Sea and have very high
insulation levels in homes to reduce heating demand then we can use it
unmetered. Of course car will electric as will all trains. Then cars must
be restricted from town and city centres.

On Thu, 12 Nov 2009 22:30:11 +0000, Rod
wrote:

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

There never was 'unmetered' power in the UK - nor was it ever likely.



But it is interesting to consider the impact that unmetered electricity
might have. Just how much electricity would we use if it were unmetered?
I can imagine having a lovely warm greenhouse with grow lights to
provide fresh fruit, vegetables and herbs all year round. (Carefully
avoiding light spill, of course.)

Streetlighting supplies aren't normally metered, nor are supplies to,
for example, cable TV cabinets.
There's just an agreed payment to the leccy supplier.

--
Frank Erskine

Doctor Drivel wrote:

Saudi Arabia? They have anything that goes.I have seen many types there.
No EU country want to know it except Ireland, who are tied to the apron
strings of the UK.

More bull**** from Drivel. Malta, an EU country uses BS1363, as does the
Republic of Cyprus.

You must enjoy being wrong all the time, eh Drivel.

Rod wrote:
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

There never was 'unmetered' power in the UK - nor was it ever likely.



But it is interesting to consider the impact that unmetered electricity
might have. Just how much electricity would we use if it were unmetered?
I can imagine having a lovely warm greenhouse with grow lights to
provide fresh fruit, vegetables and herbs all year round. (Carefully
avoiding light spill, of course.)

But I suppose eventually we'd end up using so much that there would be
literal global warming.

I don't think so really.

we don't breathe all the air do we? and that's free.

The Natural Philosopher wrote:


we don't breathe all the air do we? and that's free.

But we have finite lung capacity and a maximum rate at which we can
breathe. With unmetered, you could always add a few kW of usage quite
easily... Like at work where one person puts on a fan heater while the
a/c is working flat out to keep it cool.

--
Rod

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

we don't breathe all the air do we?

.... yet.

Unless we stop procreating like bacteria in Drivel's kitchen then we
will soon breathe all the air.

In article ,
Frank Erskine wrote:
But it is interesting to consider the impact that unmetered electricity
might have. Just how much electricity would we use if it were
unmetered? I can imagine having a lovely warm greenhouse with grow
lights to provide fresh fruit, vegetables and herbs all year round.
(Carefully avoiding light spill, of course.)

Streetlighting supplies aren't normally metered, nor are supplies to,
for example, cable TV cabinets.
There's just an agreed payment to the leccy supplier.

But both those items use a predefined amount of electricity. A house is
rather different. Nor could you judge the requirement on present
consumption - if it were 'free' many would use it wastefully.

--
*How many roads must a man travel down before he admits he is lost? *

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
The requirement for a fused plug is nothing to do with the circuit
topology,

For a ring to safely work it needs the correct fuse in the plug.

Please explain.

Please eff off as you are a plantpot

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
.. .
Doctor Drivel wrote:

Saudi Arabia? They have anything that goes.I have seen many types there.
No EU country want to know it except Ireland, who are tied to the apron
strings of the UK.

More

This pervo needs tagging. He is a Gary Glitter fan.

"Steve Firth" wrote in message
. ..
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

we don't breathe all the air do we?

... yet.

Unless we stop procreating like bacteria in Drivel's kitchen then we
will soon breathe all the air.

This pervo needs tagging.

Doctor Drivel
wibbled on Thursday 12 November 2009 22:37


"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel
wibbled on Thursday 12 November 2009 21:59


For a ring to safely work it needs the correct fuse in the plug.

That would be equally true of a radial that wasn't dedicated, and the
overcurrent protection set accordingly, to a single appliance or class of
appliance. In the most extreme case, a 32A radial is a "standard
circuit", though rare due to being not so practical to implement.

A radial with only 8 sockets on it, maximum, and rated to 16A is safer
when abused. Some appliances can be only protected by a 32A mcb.

Even when the appliances all have 0.5mm2 flexes?

Do you strip your wires with a hacksaw too? Go back to plumbing, at least
you'll only get wet...

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

we don't breathe all the air do we?

... yet.

Unless we stop procreating like bacteria in Drivel's kitchen then we
will soon breathe all the air.

Which puts a neat upper limit on our power consumption doesn't it?

The Natural Philosopher wrote:

Steve Firth wrote:
The Natural Philosopher wrote:

we don't breathe all the air do we?

... yet.

Unless we stop procreating like bacteria in Drivel's kitchen then we
will soon breathe all the air.

Which puts a neat upper limit on our power consumption doesn't it?

As another poster sig mentions, Malthus was right. Predicting when the
inevitable collapse will happen is more difficult. Governments have
already shown they can't even take difficult decisions over energy
supply. Taking much more difficult positions over nitwits who think a
religion allows them to breed like bugs is never going to happen.

Owain
wibbled on Friday 13 November 2009 10:11

On 12 Nov, 22:37, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
A radial with only 8 sockets on it, maximum, and rated to 16A is safer
when abused.

But absolutely useless for practical purposes. We'd end up like the
Americans, having to work out which combinations of sockets and
appliances don't trip anything.

I didn't think ring abuse was that widespread so as to be a problem.

Owain

I'm doing that at the moment, running my entire house (bar water heater) off
1 32A temp ring and a rather unhealthy assortment of extension leads.

SWMBO's been "instructed" as to which fan heater to turn off to run, say the
washing machine...

It's quite a weird existence (and a right PITA if I didn't know it would be
ending soon), but it's amazing how much stuff you can run with a single
maxed out 32A circuit. Not for long. Next week, I should have 3 final rings
done properly...

It's almost amazing the nice meals you can conjure up with one combi
microwave, a rice cooker (apart from the bloody thing drips condensate on
its own IEC plug and trips the RCBO(!) and a slow cooker. Wondering whether
to bother getting a real cooker ;-O

In case anyone says "wire your rings, lazy git", today's task was clearing
all the gutters (I like bungalows in this respect) - got fed up with the
waterfalls everywhere

Next task is have a bath. The get son from nursery, set up tonight's meal in
the slow cooker and clear up a bit so I can get round to do the wiring next
week.

Cheers

Tim

--
Tim Watts

This space intentionally left blank...

"John Rumm" wrote in message
news
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
o.uk...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"js.b1" wrote in message
...
On Nov 11, 2:56 pm, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:
I would tend to go for double-pole RCBOs on all circuits.

Good way of ending with a mile-long CU & higher cost.


And greater protection and the lot not tripping out only that
circuit.

Single pole RCBO devices would offer the same level of fault
protection

That is total drivel.

I can only assume

Some device that isolates the L & N when it activates must offer a higher
level of safety.

No, this is an area where you can't generalise without knowing the
specifics. Firstly you are confusing fault protection with some nebulous
concept of "safety".

I am not. If the device activates and cuts out all electricity conductors
(L&N) it must by definition be safer. In fact if the earth is isolated even
better, then all electrical conductors are isolated from the appliance or
circuit.

The time that DP device does have a clear advantage is that you can also
use it for isolation (something that requires DP switching).

yep.

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel
wibbled on Thursday 12 November 2009 22:37


"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel
wibbled on Thursday 12 November 2009 21:59


For a ring to safely work it needs the correct fuse in the plug.

That would be equally true of a radial that wasn't dedicated, and the
overcurrent protection set accordingly, to a single appliance or class
of
appliance. In the most extreme case, a 32A radial is a "standard
circuit", though rare due to being not so practical to implement.

A radial with only 8 sockets on it, maximum, and rated to 16A is safer
when abused. Some appliances can be only protected by a 32A mcb
on a ring when abused.

Even when the appliances all have 0.5mm2 flexes?

Do you strip your wires with a hacksaw too? Go back to plumbing, at least
you'll only get wet...

You lack common sense. I woudl let you near my house. There again I do all
my own.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
On 12 Nov, 22:37, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
A radial with only 8 sockets on it, maximum, and rated to 16A is safer
when
abused.

But absolutely useless for practical purposes. We'd end up like the
Americans, having to work out which combinations of sockets and
appliances don't trip anything.

When a wire becomes loose in a ring it is difficult to trace. As it is fed
from two ends. It could mean one section of cable in the ring is cooking as
the other section is isolated because of a wire coming loose.

If daisy chained sockets on a radial, and one has loose wire those
downstream will not operate. On a ring all appears fine until a high current
appliance is connected.

I didn't think ring abuse was that widespread so as to be a problem.

Ring abuse is widespread. I have noticed square 3-pin plugs with no fuses
being sold (prob illegally). That means the appliance, which could be a
table lamp, is only protected by a 32A fuse or mcb.

"Tim W" wrote in message
...
Owain
wibbled on Friday 13 November 2009 10:11

On 12 Nov, 22:37, "Doctor Drivel" wrote:
A radial with only 8 sockets on it, maximum, and rated to 16A is safer
when abused.

But absolutely useless for practical purposes. We'd end up like the
Americans, having to work out which combinations of sockets and
appliances don't trip anything.

I didn't think ring abuse was that widespread so as to be a problem.

Owain

I'm doing that at the moment, running my entire house (bar water heater)
off
1 32A temp ring and a rather unhealthy assortment of extension leads.

SWMBO's been "instructed" as to which fan heater to turn off to run, say
the
washing machine...

And this is lecturing people on electricity. Amazing. The man is a walking
fire hazard.

"Owain" wrote in message
...
On 12 Nov, 22:43, "Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
Doctor Drivel wrote:
For a ring to safely work it needs the correct fuse in the plug.
Please explain. Do you think a lighting outlet which is only fused at the
CU somehow 'safer' than a 13 amp socket?

Lighting circuits are safer where Drivel lives - they're all tamper-
resistant ligature-free recessed fittings


Great for kids.

"John Rumm" wrote in message
news
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"John Rumm" wrote in message
...
Doctor Drivel wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote in message
...
In article ,
Doctor Drivel wrote:
Rings are still silly and cheap; one
of the reasons they were adopted.....and to have higher currents for
electric heaters post war as the nuclear policy was all electric,
using
unmetered nuclear power.

There never was 'unmetered' power in the UK - nor was it ever likely.

They proposed and it was on public info films. See one.

And would you care to tell us where unmetered power was actually
provided?

The key word was "proposed".

Ah, so you mean you were actually agreeing

I not agree with loonies and plantpots.