Having spent a "fun" weekend totally stripping down and rebuilding my 20
year old touring bike because the bottom bracket seized... and then I
noticed the wheel axels were stiff... and then I noticed the headset was
tight... I was wondering why grease turns into something resembling glue
after a couple of decades. The bearings were all sitting in quite "tacky"
grease about the consistency of impact adhesive.

The grease I was using to re-lube was Castrol LM, a lithium grease, which
comes in a tub with a cover over the grease with a hole in the middle. You
push the cover down to get some grease up through the hole. I had always
assumed that was simply to keep the unused grease clean but I saw that the
older smears around the top part of the tub (it's at least a decade old!)
looked very similar to the stuff on my bike, no longer flexible and very
tacky whereas the product under the cover was fine so I guess it's something
to do with reacting to air.

Anyone know what's going on?

Calvin Sambrook wrote:
Having spent a "fun" weekend totally stripping down and rebuilding my 20
year old touring bike because the bottom bracket seized... and then I
noticed the wheel axels were stiff... and then I noticed the headset was
tight... I was wondering why grease turns into something resembling glue
after a couple of decades. The bearings were all sitting in quite "tacky"
grease about the consistency of impact adhesive.

The grease I was using to re-lube was Castrol LM, a lithium grease, which
comes in a tub with a cover over the grease with a hole in the middle. You
push the cover down to get some grease up through the hole. I had always
assumed that was simply to keep the unused grease clean but I saw that the
older smears around the top part of the tub (it's at least a decade old!)
looked very similar to the stuff on my bike, no longer flexible and very
tacky whereas the product under the cover was fine so I guess it's
something
to do with reacting to air.

Anyone know what's going on?


At a guess - the volatile components have evaporated.

Andy

Andy Champ wrote:
Calvin Sambrook wrote:
Having spent a "fun" weekend totally stripping down and rebuilding my 20
year old touring bike because the bottom bracket seized... and then I
noticed the wheel axels were stiff... and then I noticed the headset was
tight... I was wondering why grease turns into something resembling glue
after a couple of decades. The bearings were all sitting in quite
"tacky"
grease about the consistency of impact adhesive.

The grease I was using to re-lube was Castrol LM, a lithium grease, which
comes in a tub with a cover over the grease with a hole in the
middle. You
push the cover down to get some grease up through the hole. I had always
assumed that was simply to keep the unused grease clean but I saw that
the
older smears around the top part of the tub (it's at least a decade old!)
looked very similar to the stuff on my bike, no longer flexible and very
tacky whereas the product under the cover was fine so I guess it's
something
to do with reacting to air.

Anyone know what's going on?


At a guess - the volatile components have evaporated.

Andy
Quite normal behaviour. Grease is oil & soap. The latter dries out.
Old grease is normally driven out under pressure by fresh grease from a
grease gun but for something like a bike, it should be stripped down
every few years.

Bob

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Calvin Sambrook"
saying something like:

Anyone know what's going on?

Grease is just an oil with a filler, and the oil contains volatiles.

Calvin Sambrook wrote:

As grease ages John Travolta joins a weirdo religious cult and Olivier
Newton's boobs start to sag. )

--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

On Aug 31, 7:59 am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Calvin Sambrook"
saying something like:

Anyone know what's going on?

Grease is just an oil with a filler, and the oil contains volatiles.

Grease in a torque wrench may harden and cause the readings to be
vastly wrong, causing bolts to be overtightened and threads to be
damaged.
Which fact seems to have been omitted in this report of an aircraft
windscreen that fell out:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19900610-1

Test your torque wrench at least every year, or preferably every time
you use it!

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David in Normandy
saying something like:

Olivier Newton's boobs start to sag.

Who?

In article ,
"Calvin Sambrook" writes:

The grease I was using to re-lube was Castrol LM, a lithium grease, which
comes in a tub with a cover over the grease with a hole in the middle. You

I use Finish Line for regreasing my bicycle bearings.
It's never gone hard as you describe. It gets dirty after
a while, and as it's deliberately white so any dirt shows
up, that's clear to see, at which point I wash out the old
grease before reapplying.

I thought it was specifically a bicycle grease, but on
checking the tub, it doesn't actually say that anywhere on
it. It says it's a 100% synthetic grease, loaded with micron
sized teflon balls, with a film strength of 200,000 PSI
(which should just about handle my pedal force;-) and an
operating temperature of -65F to +500F. Never carbonises
under heat or pressure, never separates out, and keeps
bearing surfaces dry even when operating fully submerged.

I bought it about 10 years ago in a specialist cycling shop,
and the 16oz tub is going to easily see me out. Cost £13.

Having now read that, I might try it for some other things
too.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Aug 31, 7:59 am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Calvin Sambrook"
saying something like:

Anyone know what's going on?

Grease is just an oil with a filler, and the oil contains volatiles.

Grease in a torque wrench may harden and cause the readings to be
vastly wrong, causing bolts to be overtightened and threads to be
damaged.
Which fact seems to have been omitted in this report of an aircraft
windscreen that fell out:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19900610-1

As the cause was fitting the wrong size bolts I don't see how the torque
wrench would do any thing bad in this case. AIUI a broken torque wrench
might have stripped the smaller bolts and the whole thing would have been
avoided.


Test your torque wrench at least every year, or preferably every time
you use it!

I have no doubt that they do test the torque wrenches.

Grimly Curmudgeon wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember David in Normandy
saying something like:

Olivier Newton's boobs start to sag.

Who?

Olivier Newton John, co star with John Travolta in "Grease".

--
David in Normandy.
To e-mail you must include the password FROG on the
subject line, or it will be automatically deleted
by a filter and not reach my inbox.

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:54:16 +0100, Calvin Sambrook wrote:

Having spent a "fun" weekend totally stripping down and rebuilding my 20
year old touring bike because the bottom bracket seized... and then I
noticed the wheel axels were stiff... and then I noticed the headset was
tight... I was wondering why grease turns into something resembling glue
after a couple of decades. The bearings were all sitting in quite "tacky"
grease about the consistency of impact adhesive.

The grease I was using to re-lube was Castrol LM, a lithium grease, which
comes in a tub with a cover over the grease with a hole in the middle. You
push the cover down to get some grease up through the hole. I had always
assumed that was simply to keep the unused grease clean but I saw that the
older smears around the top part of the tub (it's at least a decade old!)
looked very similar to the stuff on my bike, no longer flexible and very
tacky whereas the product under the cover was fine so I guess it's something
to do with reacting to air.

Anyone know what's going on?

At a guess, the oil evaporates from the soap. I bought quite a lot of
Campag. Record hubs and pedals in the '80s and always stripped and rebuilt
them as the Campag. grease was like cold lard.
Some of the MTB greases are quite good - more gel-based.
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 19:03:40 -0700 (PDT), Matty F wrote:

On Aug 31, 7:59 am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Calvin Sambrook"
saying something like:

Anyone know what's going on?

Grease is just an oil with a filler, and the oil contains volatiles.

Grease in a torque wrench may harden and cause the readings to be
vastly wrong, causing bolts to be overtightened and threads to be
damaged.
Which fact seems to have been omitted in this report of an aircraft
windscreen that fell out:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19900610-1

Test your torque wrench at least every year, or preferably every time
you use it!

Thickened grease can be quickly and temporarily thinned by movement and
some WD40 (sorry).
--
Peter.
The head of a pin will hold more angels if
it's been flattened with an angel-grinder.

"Calvin Sambrook" wrote in message
...
Having spent a "fun" weekend totally stripping down and rebuilding my 20
year old touring bike because the bottom bracket seized... and then I
noticed the wheel axels were stiff... and then I noticed the headset was
tight... I was wondering why grease turns into something resembling glue
after a couple of decades. The bearings were all sitting in quite "tacky"
grease about the consistency of impact adhesive.

The grease I was using to re-lube was Castrol LM, a lithium grease, which
comes in a tub with a cover over the grease with a hole in the middle.
You
push the cover down to get some grease up through the hole. I had always
assumed that was simply to keep the unused grease clean but I saw that the
older smears around the top part of the tub (it's at least a decade old!)
looked very similar to the stuff on my bike, no longer flexible and very
tacky whereas the product under the cover was fine so I guess it's
something
to do with reacting to air.

Anyone know what's going on?

Grease is a soap containing the lubricant in suspension... the lubricant
dries out leaving just the soap

David in Normandy wrote:

Olivier Newton John, co star with John Travolta in "Grease".

cough/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000556/

Andy

On 31 Aug 2009 08:17:46 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2009-08-30, Andy Champ wrote:
Calvin Sambrook wrote:
Having spent a "fun" weekend totally stripping down and rebuilding my 20
year old touring bike because the bottom bracket seized... and then I
noticed the wheel axels were stiff... and then I noticed the headset was
tight... I was wondering why grease turns into something resembling glue
after a couple of decades. The bearings were all sitting in quite "tacky"
grease about the consistency of impact adhesive.

The grease I was using to re-lube was Castrol LM, a lithium grease, which
comes in a tub with a cover over the grease with a hole in the middle. You
push the cover down to get some grease up through the hole. I had always
assumed that was simply to keep the unused grease clean but I saw that the
older smears around the top part of the tub (it's at least a decade old!)
looked very similar to the stuff on my bike, no longer flexible and very
tacky whereas the product under the cover was fine so I guess it's
something
to do with reacting to air.

Anyone know what's going on?


At a guess - the volatile components have evaporated.

And the remaining stuff oxidised.

Thence to collect dust and turn into proto-stone.

Derek

On Sep 1, 12:00 am, "dennis@home"
wrote:
"Matty F" wrote in message

...



On Aug 31, 7:59 am, Grimly Curmudgeon
wrote:
We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Calvin Sambrook"
saying something like:

Anyone know what's going on?

Grease is just an oil with a filler, and the oil contains volatiles.

Grease in a torque wrench may harden and cause the readings to be
vastly wrong, causing bolts to be overtightened and threads to be
damaged.
Which fact seems to have been omitted in this report of an aircraft
windscreen that fell out:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19900610-1

As the cause was fitting the wrong size bolts I don't see how the torque
wrench would do any thing bad in this case. AIUI a broken torque wrench
might have stripped the smaller bolts and the whole thing would have been
avoided.

I believe that the "mechanic" managed to strip the threads, which then
caused the window to fall out as soon as there was any pressure on it.
It was discovered that many other planes had the wrong size bolts also
but those had not failed.


Test your torque wrench at least every year, or preferably every time
you use it!

I have no doubt that they do test the torque wrenches.

They had not tested that torque wrench for five years. It was
discovered that the grease in that type of wrench was unsuitable and a
different grease was recommended. But nobody bothered to notify all
the users of the wrenches.
----------------------

"Derek Geldard" wrote in message
...
On 31 Aug 2009 08:17:46 GMT, Huge wrote:

On 2009-08-30, Andy Champ wrote:
Calvin Sambrook wrote:
Having spent a "fun" weekend totally stripping down and rebuilding my
20
year old touring bike because the bottom bracket seized... and then I
noticed the wheel axels were stiff... and then I noticed the headset
was
tight... I was wondering why grease turns into something resembling
glue
after a couple of decades. The bearings were all sitting in quite
"tacky"
grease about the consistency of impact adhesive.

The grease I was using to re-lube was Castrol LM, a lithium grease,
which
comes in a tub with a cover over the grease with a hole in the middle.
You
push the cover down to get some grease up through the hole. I had
always
assumed that was simply to keep the unused grease clean but I saw that
the
older smears around the top part of the tub (it's at least a decade
old!)
looked very similar to the stuff on my bike, no longer flexible and
very
tacky whereas the product under the cover was fine so I guess it's
something
to do with reacting to air.

Anyone know what's going on?


At a guess - the volatile components have evaporated.

And the remaining stuff oxidised.

Thence to collect dust and turn into proto-stone.

Derek


The idea behind the cover with the hole was to assist in filling a grease
gun. You pressed the gun cylinder down and the grease was extruded up into
the gun. (can't help on the ageing. I have a tin (plastic with a crack)
which seems okay after about 30 years (It is a moly grease)

Matty F wrote:

Grease in a torque wrench may harden and cause the readings to be
vastly wrong, causing bolts to be overtightened and threads to be
damaged.
Which fact seems to have been omitted in this report of an aircraft
windscreen that fell out:

The effect of the grease was mentioned, but it looks like it was not
detrimental to the torque loading. What was done wrong was the over
torque loading of the bolts on the assumption that at re torque after
100 flying hours, they would find a quantity that had managed to unscrew
themselves.

What did strike me about this, was the manager didn't spot the different
bolts by either the weight, feel, or use of the fingers to run over the
screwed in bolt's countersunk head. That alone should have alerted him
to the fact that the bolts were the wrong ones. Countersunk fasteners
must comply with quite strict tolerances regarding their levelness to
the aircraft structure.

The use of bolts of the correct diameter, but 0.1 inch shorter would not
make all that much difference from the right length. One thing I noticed
that was missing from the report was a visual check of the bolt tail
protrusion out of the anchor nuts. I presume that they were hidden
behind cockpit trim and that the illustrated parts catalogue should have
been consulted for the correct length, diameter and part number to be used.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19900610-1

Made an interesting read. You would never get those sort of slip ups
that came to light in the military side of aircraft. The RAF have a very
robust system in place in the 700's books.

Test your torque wrench at least every year, or preferably every time
you use it!

Now there is a problem here, what do you cross check a torque loader
against? We have no calibrated tools to check them with.

Dave

On Sep 1, 8:10 am, Dave wrote:
Matty F wrote:
Grease in a torque wrench may harden and cause the readings to be
vastly wrong, causing bolts to be overtightened and threads to be
damaged.
Which fact seems to have been omitted in this report of an aircraft
windscreen that fell out:

The effect of the grease was mentioned, but it looks like it was not
detrimental to the torque loading. What was done wrong was the over
torque loading of the bolts on the assumption that at re torque after
100 flying hours, they would find a quantity that had managed to unscrew
themselves.

I gathered that the bolts were tightened to double the correct torque
because of the hardened grease in the torque wrench, but perhaps I
remember it wrong.

What did strike me about this, was the manager didn't spot the different
bolts by either the weight, feel, or use of the fingers to run over the
screwed in bolt's countersunk head. That alone should have alerted him
to the fact that the bolts were the wrong ones. Countersunk fasteners
must comply with quite strict tolerances regarding their levelness to
the aircraft structure.

The heads of the incorrect bolts were smaller than those of the
correct bolts. That made it easy to find the incorrect bolts on many
other planes without having to unscrew them. The manager should have
noticed the head size.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19900610-1

Made an interesting read. You would never get those sort of slip ups
that came to light in the military side of aircraft. The RAF have a very
robust system in place in the 700's books.

Test your torque wrench at least every year, or preferably every time
you use it!

Now there is a problem here, what do you cross check a torque loader
against? We have no calibrated tools to check them with.

I would check it against a simple spring gauge. Not better than 10%
accurate but a lot better than 100% wrong as was the wrench that was
used.

"Matty F" wrote in message
...
On Sep 1, 8:10 am, Dave wrote:
Matty F wrote:
Grease in a torque wrench may harden and cause the readings to be
vastly wrong, causing bolts to be overtightened and threads to be
damaged.
Which fact seems to have been omitted in this report of an aircraft
windscreen that fell out:

The effect of the grease was mentioned, but it looks like it was not
detrimental to the torque loading. What was done wrong was the over
torque loading of the bolts on the assumption that at re torque after
100 flying hours, they would find a quantity that had managed to unscrew
themselves.

I gathered that the bolts were tightened to double the correct torque
because of the hardened grease in the torque wrench, but perhaps I
remember it wrong.

AIUI it stated that you couldn't tell the difference between the thread
slipping on the smaller bolt and the torque wrench operating.


What did strike me about this, was the manager didn't spot the different
bolts by either the weight, feel, or use of the fingers to run over the
screwed in bolt's countersunk head. That alone should have alerted him
to the fact that the bolts were the wrong ones. Countersunk fasteners
must comply with quite strict tolerances regarding their levelness to
the aircraft structure.

The heads of the incorrect bolts were smaller than those of the
correct bolts. That made it easy to find the incorrect bolts on many
other planes without having to unscrew them. The manager should have
noticed the head size.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19900610-1

Made an interesting read. You would never get those sort of slip ups
that came to light in the military side of aircraft. The RAF have a very
robust system in place in the 700's books.

Test your torque wrench at least every year, or preferably every time
you use it!

Now there is a problem here, what do you cross check a torque loader
against? We have no calibrated tools to check them with.

I would check it against a simple spring gauge. Not better than 10%
accurate but a lot better than 100% wrong as was the wrench that was
used.

The report did state that the torque wrench made no difference to the
accident.

Matty F wrote:
On Sep 1, 8:10 am, Dave wrote:
Matty F wrote:

Test your torque wrench at least every year, or preferably every time
you use it!
Now there is a problem here, what do you cross check a torque loader
against? We have no calibrated tools to check them with.

I would check it against a simple spring gauge. Not better than 10%
accurate but a lot better than 100% wrong as was the wrench that was
used.

You have a chicken and egg situation here. How do you check the accuracy
of the spring balance? I suppose you could calibrate it with an empty
paint can and fill it up with a measured amount of water though.

When I worked in the industry, my boss asked me to test some ones own
torque wrench on our calibrated measuring machine that we used to set a
particular torque wrench up with. The wrench was one of those that had
an adjustable rotating handle, so that you could set any torque within
its range and the wrench would 'break' near the end when the torque was
reached. Despite its age, it was remarkably accurate.

Dave

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Matty F
saying something like:

Now there is a problem here, what do you cross check a torque loader
against? We have no calibrated tools to check them with.

I would check it against a simple spring gauge. Not better than 10%
accurate but a lot better than 100% wrong as was the wrench that was
used.

I would suggest against a known weight sliding to set points on a bar.

"Calvin Sambrook" wrote in message
...
Having spent a "fun" weekend totally stripping down and rebuilding my 20
year old touring bike because the bottom bracket seized... and then I
noticed the wheel axels were stiff... and then I noticed the headset was
tight... I was wondering why grease turns into something resembling glue
after a couple of decades. The bearings were all sitting in quite "tacky"
grease about the consistency of impact adhesive.

The grease I was using to re-lube was Castrol LM, a lithium grease, which
comes in a tub with a cover over the grease with a hole in the middle.
You
push the cover down to get some grease up through the hole. I had always
assumed that was simply to keep the unused grease clean but I saw that the
older smears around the top part of the tub (it's at least a decade old!)
looked very similar to the stuff on my bike, no longer flexible and very
tacky whereas the product under the cover was fine so I guess it's
something
to do with reacting to air.

Anyone know what's going on?


Thanks everyone for broadening my understanding of this. I know I should
have re-lubed my bike at some point over the last two decades but it's just
one of those jobs I never got around to (long list ! ).

Despite having an "O" level (sort of like a good GCSE for any youths here)
in Chemistry I was in fact that kid mucking about at the back of the class
so I now have to admit to not really knowing what soap is made from and how
(hangs head in shame). Anyone care to tell me?

Calvin Sambrook wrote:
snip

Despite having an "O" level (sort of like a good GCSE for any youths
here) in Chemistry I was in fact that kid mucking about at the back of
the class so I now have to admit to not really knowing what soap is made
from and how (hangs head in shame). Anyone care to tell me?


No, an O level is more like a modern A level. So I was informed by my
son when he did some O level papers during his A level course - and that
was 5 years or so back.

The basic principal of soaps (and detergents) is to have one end water
soluble, and the other end oil soluble. Wikipedia's quite good:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detergent

Andy

Calvin Sambrook coughed up some electrons that declared:


Despite having an "O" level (sort of like a good GCSE for any youths here)
in Chemistry I was in fact that kid mucking about at the back of the class
so I now have to admit to not really knowing what soap is made from and
how
(hangs head in shame). Anyone care to tell me?

IIRC, strong alkali and fat/oil, eg: caustic soda + veggie oil = soap +
glycerine

That's why cheap crap crude soaps don't do your skin any favours as they are
pH7 due to residual alkali.

Animal fat can be used too.

Human fat could also be used (cf Fight Club)

I expect in the old days, it was made from a.n.-other-random-fat and lye
(from wood ash) but I'm guessing. I know lye was a popular alkali as
everyone had loads of wood ash going spare.

Here's an interesting article:

http://www.history-science-technology.com/Notes/Notes 5.htm

"Fish oil soap" - erk! Wouldn't wash with that and expect to pot the red
that night.

But I really *didn't* know grease involved soap. I thought it was just
various fractions of distilled crap. Learn something every day...

Cheers

Tim

"Calvin Sambrook" writes:
Thanks everyone for broadening my understanding of this.

Likewise. It leaves me wondering something else. Before reading this
thread, I'd assumed that (like vaseline) grease was just a particularly
thick petrochemical -- or a mix, to get the right properties. What is it
that makes doing it that way impossible (or at least, makes making
something that eventually dries out a better choice)?

What grease-like things don't eventually dry out?

--
Jón Fairbairn

On Aug 31, 4:55*pm, Andy Champ wrote:
David in Normandy wrote:

Olivier Newton John, co star with John Travolta in "Grease".

cough/

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000556/

Heh, she played a part called :

A Christmas Romance (1994) (TV) .... Julia Stonecypher

Love that Surname ... !

Paul.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Jon Fairbairn
saying something like:

What grease-like things don't eventually dry out?

DG and Solar Panel salesmen.

Grimly Curmudgeon writes:

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Jon Fairbairn
saying something like:

What grease-like things don't eventually dry out?

DG and Solar Panel salesmen.

ROFL!

but seriously, now...?

--
Jón Fairbairn
http://www.chaos.org.uk/~jf/Stuff-I-dont-want.html (updated 2009-01-31)