Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
Bringing up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its
toll on the house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration.
The back-boiler is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are
problems with the wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem,
and also when the kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets
and wiring that were put in might not meet Building Regulations and
weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all
the work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an
area we'd much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell
the house, hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems,
adjusting the price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal
action being taken.

Thanks for your comments.
--

SeniorCitizen

Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
Bringing up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its
toll on the house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration.
The back-boiler is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are
problems with the wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem,
and also when the kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets
and wiring that were put in might not meet Building Regulations and
weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all
the work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an
area we'd much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell
the house, hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems,
adjusting the price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal
action being taken.

Thanks for your comments.
--

IANAL but, as far as I am aware, and being in the process of selling myself,
as long as you tell no lies you can sell anything and it is up to the
purchaser to check the condition of the property. It is likely that they
will make an offer subject to survey and then knock bits off the price for
the boiler and the wiring. If you have these done it will sell easier.

I cannot emphasise enough that, while it is ok to play dumb, you *cannot*
tell porkies. If they ask questions, you must answer truthfully. Ditto on
forms - you must answer the form from the solicitor truthfully. If you do
lie, you are opening yourself up for possible disaster later on.

I would turn the sale over to an estate agent and let them do the talking,
filling all forms and questionnaires out diligently and truthfully.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

SeniorCitizen wrote:

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.
After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
....the extra sockets
and wiring that were put in might not meet Building Regulations and
weren't certified.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal
action being taken.

There is no legal problem, unless you tell the prospective buyer that
the wiring is in perfect condition, and has passed all the relevant
regs.

In reality, the surveyor will pick up that you need a rewire etc.
Whether a new circuit has passed building regs is neither here nor
there, the whole lot needs changing.

The house sale price will reflect the condition of the house, so a
rewire will be factored in to the offered price.

So long as you are truthful when asked any queries, then there is no
legal comeback against you.(obviously with the caveats that you do not
leave anything in place that you know is potentially dangerous, such as
removing a socket, and leaving the wires live, etc).
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On Jun 15, 9:13*am, SeniorCitizen wrote:
Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
Bringing up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its
toll on the house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration.
The back-boiler is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are
problems with the wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem,
and also when the kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets
and wiring that were put in might not meet Building Regulations and
weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all
the work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an
area we'd much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell
the house, hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems,
adjusting the price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal
action being taken.



I don't think there is any legal problem as long as you don't disguise
the state of things.

I suggest that you get some estimates for having all the work done.
This will enable you to set the price correctly - these costs can be
surprisingly high. If you wanted, you could even offer it as a "fully
costed renovation opportunity".

Robert

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:13:22 +0100, SeniorCitizen wrote:


Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on. Bringing
up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its toll on the
house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration. The back-boiler
is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are problems with the
wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem, and also when the
kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets and wiring that were
put in might not meet Building Regulations and weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all the
work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an area we'd
much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell the house,
hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems, adjusting the
price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal action
being taken.

Thanks for your comments.
=========================================

It's up to the buyer's surveyor and solicitor to ask questions which you
must answer truthfully. You're not obliged to prepare a list of defects
for prospective buyers. Make your own private list of of any potential
problems such as those you've mentioned and get estimates for remedying by
professionals AND get prices for major items such as a boiler, etc. This
will give you some idea of the cost of DIY remedies. Potential DIY buyers
will try to reduce your asking price by large amounts dictated by
professional tradesmen when DIY will be much less costly to them. Don't
give in to exaggerated estimates of remedial work even if your buyer is an
MP.

Cic.

--
==========================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
==========================================

When I sold my last property, there was a term in the contract that
said "there are no terms of contract, apart from the terms written
here" - so anything I had said about the property was not a term of
sale. I did however fill in a form included with the contract (mostly
detailing what was and was not included in the sale) that contained
questions like "has there been any building work in the last 5 years
that falls within the scope of building control?"

So at that point you would be wise to come clean about the kitchen
rewiring being unapproved.

However (AIUI - IANAL) all the old work is just "condition of the
property" and carries no responsibility to disclose on your part.

In practice I have always been scrupulously honest with my buyers, and
it has been appreciated.

On Jun 15, 10:04*am, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:13:22 +0100, SeniorCitizen wrote:

Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on. Bringing
up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its toll on the
house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration. The back-boiler
is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are problems with the
wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem, and also when the
kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets and wiring that were
put in might not meet Building Regulations and weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all the
work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an area we'd
much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell the house,
hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems, adjusting the
price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal action
being taken.

Thanks for your comments.

=========================================

It's up to the buyer's surveyor and solicitor to ask questions which you
must answer truthfully. You're not obliged to prepare a list of defects
for *prospective buyers. Make your own private list of of any potential
problems such as those you've mentioned and get estimates for remedying by
professionals AND get prices for major items such as a boiler, etc. This
will give you some idea of the cost of DIY remedies. Potential DIY buyers
will try to reduce your asking price by large amounts dictated by
professional tradesmen when DIY will be much less costly to them. Don't
give in to exaggerated estimates of remedial work even if your buyer is an
MP.

Cic.


What reason says one has to answer all the buyer's questions? Surely
its for the buyer to do their own survey, reach their own conclusions,
and accept full responsibility for their own actions based thereon.
I've seen various pieces of paperwork that effectively say sold as
seen, we cant even guarantee exactly where the plot ends, good luck
mate.


NT

"NT" wrote in message
...
On Jun 15, 10:04 am, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:13:22 +0100, SeniorCitizen wrote:

Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on. Bringing
up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its toll on the
house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration. The
back-boiler
is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are problems with the
wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem, and also when the
kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets and wiring that
were
put in might not meet Building Regulations and weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all
the
work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an area
we'd
much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell the house,
hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems, adjusting the
price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal action
being taken.

Thanks for your comments.

=========================================

It's up to the buyer's surveyor and solicitor to ask questions which you
must answer truthfully. You're not obliged to prepare a list of defects
for prospective buyers. Make your own private list of of any potential
problems such as those you've mentioned and get estimates for remedying by
professionals AND get prices for major items such as a boiler, etc. This
will give you some idea of the cost of DIY remedies. Potential DIY buyers
will try to reduce your asking price by large amounts dictated by
professional tradesmen when DIY will be much less costly to them. Don't
give in to exaggerated estimates of remedial work even if your buyer is an
MP.

Cic.


-What reason says one has to answer all the buyer's questions? Surely
-its for the buyer to do their own survey, reach their own conclusions,
-and accept full responsibility for their own actions based thereon.
-I've seen various pieces of paperwork that effectively say sold as
-seen, we cant even guarantee exactly where the plot ends, good luck
-mate.

You don't have to answer them but you do have to tell the truth if you do.
Choosing to remain silent is not the same as saying "I don't know" (if it
can be shown you did know). They will draw their own conclusions from a
failure to answer of course but that's fair.


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)

"SeniorCitizen" wrote in message
...

Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
Bringing up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its
toll on the house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration.
The back-boiler is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are
problems with the wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem,
and also when the kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets
and wiring that were put in might not meet Building Regulations and
weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all
the work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an
area we'd much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell
the house, hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems,
adjusting the price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal
action being taken.

Thanks for your comments.

My mate sold his mother in laws house without Prat P for the kitchen
electrics no problem. Just stated this fact on house info pack to solicitor.
Also had no Fensa paperwork for kitchen windows (as spotted by survery) not
a problem.

There was some negotiation about Prat P with the buyer, he almost managed to
get the buyer to pay for an electrical inspection (£175), but buyer finaly
agreed it was a waste of time as he was intending to rip it all out and
refit whole house.


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4155 (20090615) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com

On Jun 15, 11:26*am, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message

...
On Jun 15, 10:04 am, Cicero wrote:



On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:13:22 +0100, SeniorCitizen wrote:

Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on. Bringing
up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its toll on the
house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration. The
back-boiler
is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are problems with the
wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem, and also when the
kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets and wiring that
were
put in might not meet Building Regulations and weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all
the
work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an area
we'd
much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell the house,
hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems, adjusting the
price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal action
being taken.

Thanks for your comments.

=========================================

It's up to the buyer's surveyor and solicitor to ask questions which you
must answer truthfully. You're not obliged to prepare a list of defects
for prospective buyers. Make your own private list of of any potential
problems such as those you've mentioned and get estimates for remedying by
professionals AND get prices for major items such as a boiler, etc. This
will give you some idea of the cost of DIY remedies. Potential DIY buyers
will try to reduce your asking price by large amounts dictated by
professional tradesmen when DIY will be much less costly to them. Don't
give in to exaggerated estimates of remedial work even if your buyer is an
MP.

Cic.

-What reason says one has to answer all the buyer's questions? Surely
-its for the buyer to do their own survey, reach their own conclusions,
-and accept full responsibility for their own actions based thereon.
-I've seen various pieces of paperwork that effectively say sold as
-seen, we cant even guarantee exactly where the plot ends, good luck
-mate.

You don't have to answer them but you do have to tell the truth if you do..
Choosing to remain silent is not the same as saying "I don't know" (if it
can be shown you did know). They will draw their own conclusions from a
failure to answer of course but that's fair.


"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case with
property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and your
surveyor to determine whether you think there are any issues with the
property that might affect the price you are willing to pay. I do not
intend to take on any of this responsibility or create a situation in
which lawyers can get rich deciding who might or might not be
responsible for what, and I presume your surveyor is suitably insured
against such eventualities. I presume also that you will fully insure
the property if you purchase it."


NT

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:17:23 -0700, NT wrote:

On Jun 15, 11:26*am, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message

...
On Jun 15, 10:04 am, Cicero wrote:



On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:13:22 +0100, SeniorCitizen wrote:

Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
Bringing up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its
toll on the house, which is in need of a fair amount of
redecoration. The back-boiler
is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are problems with
the wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem, and also when
the kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets and wiring
that were
put in might not meet Building Regulations and weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing
all the
work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an
area we'd
much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell the
house, hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems,
adjusting the price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be
open about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of
legal action being taken.

Thanks for your comments.

=========================================

It's up to the buyer's surveyor and solicitor to ask questions which
you must answer truthfully. You're not obliged to prepare a list of
defects for prospective buyers. Make your own private list of of any
potential problems such as those you've mentioned and get estimates
for remedying by professionals AND get prices for major items such as
a boiler, etc. This will give you some idea of the cost of DIY
remedies. Potential DIY buyers will try to reduce your asking price
by large amounts dictated by professional tradesmen when DIY will be
much less costly to them. Don't give in to exaggerated estimates of
remedial work even if your buyer is an MP.

Cic.

-What reason says one has to answer all the buyer's questions? Surely
-its for the buyer to do their own survey, reach their own conclusions,
-and accept full responsibility for their own actions based thereon.
-I've seen various pieces of paperwork that effectively say sold as
-seen, we cant even guarantee exactly where the plot ends, good luck
-mate.

You don't have to answer them but you do have to tell the truth if you
do. Choosing to remain silent is not the same as saying "I don't know"
(if it can be shown you did know). They will draw their own conclusions
from a failure to answer of course but that's fair.


"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case with
property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and your surveyor
to determine whether you think there are any issues with the property
that might affect the price you are willing to pay. I do not intend to
take on any of this responsibility or create a situation in which
lawyers can get rich deciding who might or might not be responsible for
what, and I presume your surveyor is suitably insured against such
eventualities. I presume also that you will fully insure the property if
you purchase it."


NT
==========================================

Since you don't state a source for your quotation it has very little
value. It appears to be a statement from one rather prickly vendor about
one particular transaction and as such it doesn't reflect the normal
situation.

Solicitors (and to a lesser extent, surveyors) will ask questions
about things which they consider will influence their client's decision to
buy. One of the most frequent questions asked concerns neighbour disputes
/ nuisance and there have been cases where failure to disclose such things
has led to expensive claims for damages against sellers.

Any seller is entitled to say 'don't know' to minor matters such as the
age of CH system etc. which don't seriously affect the overall value of a
property. Such relatively minor matters are usually commented by a
surveyor. However a neighbour dispute (boundary dispute, noise, trespass,
etc.) isn't usually very visible and a prospective buyer is entitled to an
honest answer on such matters.

Cic.
--
==========================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
==========================================

On Jun 15, 6:46*pm, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:17:23 -0700, NT wrote:
On Jun 15, 11:26*am, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message

....
On Jun 15, 10:04 am, Cicero wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:13:22 +0100, SeniorCitizen wrote:

Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
Bringing up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its
toll on the house, which is in need of a fair amount of
redecoration. The back-boiler
is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are problems with
the wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem, and also when
the kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets and wiring
that were
put in might not meet Building Regulations and weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing
all the
work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an
area we'd
much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell the
house, hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems,
adjusting the price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be
open about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of
legal action being taken.

Thanks for your comments.

=========================================

It's up to the buyer's surveyor and solicitor to ask questions which
you must answer truthfully. You're not obliged to prepare a list of
defects for prospective buyers. Make your own private list of of any
potential problems such as those you've mentioned and get estimates
for remedying by professionals AND get prices for major items such as
a boiler, etc. This will give you some idea of the cost of DIY
remedies. Potential DIY buyers will try to reduce your asking price
by large amounts dictated by professional tradesmen when DIY will be
much less costly to them. Don't give in to exaggerated estimates of
remedial work even if your buyer is an MP.

Cic.

-What reason says one has to answer all the buyer's questions? Surely
-its for the buyer to do their own survey, reach their own conclusions,
-and accept full responsibility for their own actions based thereon.
-I've seen various pieces of paperwork that effectively say sold as
-seen, we cant even guarantee exactly where the plot ends, good luck
-mate.

You don't have to answer them but you do have to tell the truth if you
do. Choosing to remain silent is not the same as saying "I don't know"
(if it can be shown you did know). They will draw their own conclusions
from a failure to answer of course but that's fair.

"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case with
property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and your surveyor
to determine whether you think there are any issues with the property
that might affect the price you are willing to pay. I do not intend to
take on any of this responsibility or create a situation in which
lawyers can get rich deciding who might or might not be responsible for
what, and I presume your surveyor is suitably insured against such
eventualities. I presume also that you will fully insure the property if
you purchase it."

NT

==========================================

Since you don't state a source for your quotation it has very little
value.

That is simply illogical.


It appears to be a statement from one rather prickly vendor about
one particular transaction and as such it doesn't reflect the normal
situation.

Solicitors (and to a lesser extent, surveyors) will ask questions
about things which they consider will influence their client's decision to
buy. One of the most frequent questions asked concerns neighbour disputes
/ nuisance and there have been cases where failure to disclose such things
has led to expensive claims for damages against sellers.

Any seller is entitled to say 'don't know' to minor matters such as the
age of CH system etc. which don't seriously affect the overall value of a
property. Such relatively minor matters are usually commented by a
surveyor. However a neighbour dispute (boundary dispute, noise, trespass,
etc.) isn't usually very visible and a prospective buyer is entitled to an
honest answer on such matters.

Cic.


clearly buyers arent entitled to answers, but sellers usually provide
them to maximise sale value.


NT

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:16:53 -0700, NT wrote:

On Jun 15, 6:46*pm, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:17:23 -0700, NT wrote:
On Jun 15, 11:26*am, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message

...
On Jun 15, 10:04 am, Cicero wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:13:22 +0100, SeniorCitizen wrote:

Also posted to uk.legal.

snipped for brevity


"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case with
property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and your
surveyor to determine whether you think there are any issues with the
property that might affect the price you are willing to pay. I do not
intend to take on any of this responsibility or create a situation in
which lawyers can get rich deciding who might or might not be
responsible for what, and I presume your surveyor is suitably insured
against such eventualities. I presume also that you will fully insure
the property if you purchase it."

NT

==========================================

Since you don't state a source for your quotation it has very little
value.
------------------------------------------

That is simply illogical.

------------------------------------------

It isn't remotely illogical.

The whole point of presenting a quotation such as you've produced is to
give an authoritative view on a subject. The source / author of the
quotation is essential to enable people to judge the merit of the
information provided in the quotation.

A quotation from Einstein or Hawkins is more likely to carry weight than one from Joe Bloggs.

The quotation you're defending has no source (authoritative or
otherwise) and appearances suggest that it's from a rather bombastic
character with a chip on his shoulder.

-------------------------------------------



It appears to be a statement from one rather prickly vendor about one
particular transaction and as such it doesn't reflect the normal
situation.

Solicitors (and to a lesser extent, surveyors) will ask questions about
things which they consider will influence their client's decision to
buy. One of the most frequent questions asked concerns neighbour
disputes / nuisance and there have been cases where failure to disclose
such things has led to expensive claims for damages against sellers.

Any seller is entitled to say 'don't know' to minor matters such as the
age of CH system etc. which don't seriously affect the overall value of
a property. Such relatively minor matters are usually commented by a
surveyor. However a neighbour dispute (boundary dispute, noise,
trespass, etc.) isn't usually very visible and a prospective buyer is
entitled to an honest answer on such matters.

Cic.


clearly buyers arent entitled to answers, but sellers usually provide them
to maximise sale value.


NT

--
==========================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
==========================================

On Jun 15, 8:00*pm, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:16:53 -0700, NT wrote:
On Jun 15, 6:46*pm, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:17:23 -0700, NT wrote:

"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case with
property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and your
surveyor to determine whether you think there are any issues with the
property that might affect the price you are willing to pay. I do not
intend to take on any of this responsibility or create a situation in
which lawyers can get rich deciding who might or might not be
responsible for what, and I presume your surveyor is suitably insured
against such eventualities. I presume also that you will fully insure
the property if you purchase it."

NT

Since you don't state a source for your quotation it has very little
value.

That is simply illogical.

It isn't remotely illogical.

The whole point of presenting a quotation such as you've produced is to
give an authoritative view on a subject.

no, its to provide material to discuss. If you dont want to discuss
its merits or demerits, ok.


NT

"NT" wrote in message
...
On Jun 15, 11:26 am, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message

...
On Jun 15, 10:04 am, Cicero wrote:



On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:13:22 +0100, SeniorCitizen wrote:

Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
Bringing
up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its toll on the
house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration. The
back-boiler
is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are problems with
the
wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem, and also when the
kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets and wiring that
were
put in might not meet Building Regulations and weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all
the
work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an area
we'd
much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell the house,
hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems, adjusting
the
price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal
action
being taken.

Thanks for your comments.

=========================================

It's up to the buyer's surveyor and solicitor to ask questions which you
must answer truthfully. You're not obliged to prepare a list of defects
for prospective buyers. Make your own private list of of any potential
problems such as those you've mentioned and get estimates for remedying
by
professionals AND get prices for major items such as a boiler, etc. This
will give you some idea of the cost of DIY remedies. Potential DIY
buyers
will try to reduce your asking price by large amounts dictated by
professional tradesmen when DIY will be much less costly to them. Don't
give in to exaggerated estimates of remedial work even if your buyer is
an
MP.

Cic.

-What reason says one has to answer all the buyer's questions? Surely
-its for the buyer to do their own survey, reach their own conclusions,
-and accept full responsibility for their own actions based thereon.
-I've seen various pieces of paperwork that effectively say sold as
-seen, we cant even guarantee exactly where the plot ends, good luck
-mate.

You don't have to answer them but you do have to tell the truth if you do.
Choosing to remain silent is not the same as saying "I don't know" (if it
can be shown you did know). They will draw their own conclusions from a
failure to answer of course but that's fair.


-"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case with
-property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and your
-surveyor to determine whether you think there are any issues with the
-property that might affect the price you are willing to pay. I do not
-intend to take on any of this responsibility or create a situation in
-which lawyers can get rich deciding who might or might not be
-responsible for what, and I presume your surveyor is suitably insured
-against such eventualities. I presume also that you will fully insure
-the property if you purchase it."

Fine (assuming it's what you would say) it's a recipe for saying nothing
(which I said you could do). My point was that, if you did answer questions
they had to be truthful answers and that if you didn't (or the prospective
purchaser received the above) they would draw their own conclusions. You
are, in effect agreeing with me!


--
Bob Mannix
(anti-spam is as easy as 1-2-3 - not)
NT

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:39:39 -0700, NT wrote:

On Jun 15, 8:00*pm, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:16:53 -0700, NT wrote:
On Jun 15, 6:46*pm, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:17:23 -0700, NT wrote:

"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case with
property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and your
surveyor to determine whether you think there are any issues with
the property that might affect the price you are willing to pay. I
do not intend to take on any of this responsibility or create a
situation in which lawyers can get rich deciding who might or
might not be responsible for what, and I presume your surveyor is
suitably insured against such eventualities. I presume also that
you will fully insure the property if you purchase it."

NT

Since you don't state a source for your quotation it has very little
value.

That is simply illogical.

It isn't remotely illogical.

The whole point of presenting a quotation such as you've produced is to
give an authoritative view on a subject.

no, its to provide material to discuss. If you dont want to discuss its
merits or demerits, ok.


NT
=========================================

I'm afraid you've lost the plot.

You presented your quotation to counter my comments and those of another
poster, and you presented it without any introduction, explanation or
source.

Quotations are widely accepted as means of presenting an authoritative
opinion on a subject but their value derives from the status of the person
or organisation quoted. A recognised and respected expert's opinion
carries weight; the quotation you offered, without attribution, would be
seen by many people as trivial, inaccurate and misleading.

If you want the offered quotation to be considered worthy of discussion,
just follow convention and quote the source and the circumstances in which
it was made. Without a source it has little or no merit.

Cic.
--
==========================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
==========================================

SeniorCitizen wrote:


I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

snip

Many thanks to those who offered constructive comments; these were
gratefully received.

Unless some major factor intervenes, the plan will be to sell the
house as 'in need of modernisation' - in the target area we'd like to
move to, these types of house are offered for sale at very little
under 'normal' prices. I expect it will depend on how individual
buyers perceive things as to how things work out in each case.

Thanks once again.
--

SeniorCitizen

SeniorCitizen wrote:

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal
action being taken.

If we are talking more than a couple of years, then there is no legal
action that can be taken - it is past the time were building control
have any enforcement powers. Also, the chances of a building control
body taking legal action for a procedural violation of building regs is
pretty much nil (they have a limited budget, which will be saved for
cases of professional repeat offenders, or people carrying ou work that
is putting the public directly at risk). (I am assuming here that the
work is done to a decent quality and not bodged - meaning the only
failing was a paperwork one of not submitting a building notice).

The key, as the others have said, is to just be honest. You will be
asked if any electrical work has been undertaken on the sellers
questionnaire, and you can say yes. You can also say no certification is
available. If there are any further questions as to why there is no
paperwork, you can simply say you were not aware of the need for any
(the vast majority of people are not anyway), or be more blatant if you
want, and say you were aware of the need.

I suspect by now, that electrical related questions are now treated with
much the same rigour as those about replacement windows.

By the sounds of it, any prospective purchaser is soon going to be
thinking in terms of a rewire anyway, making the whole thing a rather
moot point.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Bob Mannix wrote:

You don't have to answer them but you do have to tell the truth if you do.
Choosing to remain silent is not the same as saying "I don't know" (if it
can be shown you did know). They will draw their own conclusions from a
failure to answer of course but that's fair.

Solicitors (IME) will generally urge answers of "I don't know" in cases
where there is *any* doubt over an answer.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Jun 16, 8:45*am, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:39:39 -0700, NT wrote:
On Jun 15, 8:00*pm, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:16:53 -0700, NT wrote:
On Jun 15, 6:46*pm, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:17:23 -0700, NT wrote:

"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case with
property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and your
surveyor to determine whether you think there are any issues with
the property that might affect the price you are willing to pay. I
do not intend to take on any of this responsibility or create a
situation in which lawyers can get rich deciding who might or
might not be responsible for what, and I presume your surveyor is
suitably insured against such eventualities. I presume also that
you will fully insure the property if you purchase it."

NT

Since you don't state a source for your quotation it has very little
value.

That is simply illogical.

It isn't remotely illogical.

The whole point of presenting a quotation such as you've produced is to
give an authoritative view on a subject.

no, its to provide material to discuss. If you dont want to discuss its
merits or demerits, ok.

NT

=========================================

I'm afraid you've lost the plot.

I've already explained why I offered the quote, if you don't grasp
that so be it. Personally I was interested in discussion of its merits
or demerits.


NT

On Jun 16, 8:37*am, "Bob Mannix" wrote:
"NT" wrote in message

...
On Jun 15, 11:26 am, "Bob Mannix" wrote:



"NT" wrote in message

...
On Jun 15, 10:04 am, Cicero wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:13:22 +0100, SeniorCitizen wrote:

Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
Bringing
up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its toll on the
house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration. The
back-boiler
is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are problems with
the
wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem, and also when the
kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets and wiring that
were
put in might not meet Building Regulations and weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all
the
work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an area
we'd
much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell the house,
hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems, adjusting
the
price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal
action
being taken.

Thanks for your comments.

=========================================

It's up to the buyer's surveyor and solicitor to ask questions which you
must answer truthfully. You're not obliged to prepare a list of defects
for prospective buyers. Make your own private list of of any potential
problems such as those you've mentioned and get estimates for remedying
by
professionals AND get prices for major items such as a boiler, etc. This
will give you some idea of the cost of DIY remedies. Potential DIY
buyers
will try to reduce your asking price by large amounts dictated by
professional tradesmen when DIY will be much less costly to them. Don't
give in to exaggerated estimates of remedial work even if your buyer is
an
MP.

Cic.

-What reason says one has to answer all the buyer's questions? Surely
-its for the buyer to do their own survey, reach their own conclusions,
-and accept full responsibility for their own actions based thereon.
-I've seen various pieces of paperwork that effectively say sold as
-seen, we cant even guarantee exactly where the plot ends, good luck
-mate.

You don't have to answer them but you do have to tell the truth if you do.
Choosing to remain silent is not the same as saying "I don't know" (if it
can be shown you did know). They will draw their own conclusions from a
failure to answer of course but that's fair.

-"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case with
-property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and your
-surveyor to determine whether you think there are any issues with the
-property that might affect the price you are willing to pay. I do not
-intend to take on any of this responsibility or create a situation in
-which lawyers can get rich deciding who might or might not be
-responsible for what, and I presume your surveyor is suitably insured
-against such eventualities. I presume also that you will fully insure
-the property if you purchase it."

Fine (assuming it's what you would say) it's a recipe for saying nothing
(which I said you could do). My point was that, if you did answer questions
they had to be truthful answers and that if you didn't (or the prospective
purchaser received the above) they would draw their own conclusions. You
are, in effect agreeing with me!


Yes, I was just trying to take it a step further. The quote simply
adds a plausible reason as to why the seller doesnt wish to get into
it, and I was suggesting could be used when there is a solid reason to
not answer questions.

FWIW I'm not sure it has to precludes all question answering, but
questions as to the building itself.


NT

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 04:41:59 -0700, NT wrote:

On Jun 16, 8:45*am, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:39:39 -0700, NT wrote:
On Jun 15, 8:00*pm, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 11:16:53 -0700, NT wrote:
On Jun 15, 6:46*pm, Cicero wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:17:23 -0700, NT wrote:

"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case
with property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and
your surveyor to determine whether you think there are any
issues with the property that might affect the price you are
willing to pay. I do not intend to take on any of this
responsibility or create a situation in which lawyers can get
rich deciding who might or might not be responsible for what,
and I presume your surveyor is suitably insured against such
eventualities. I presume also that you will fully insure the
property if you purchase it."

NT

Since you don't state a source for your quotation it has very
little value.

That is simply illogical.

It isn't remotely illogical.

The whole point of presenting a quotation such as you've produced is
to give an authoritative view on a subject.

no, its to provide material to discuss. If you dont want to discuss
its merits or demerits, ok.

NT

=========================================

I'm afraid you've lost the plot.

I've already explained why I offered the quote, if you don't grasp that so
be it. Personally I was interested in discussion of its merits or
demerits.


NT
=========================================

Provide the source then - that's quite simple. Perhaps you made it up
yourself? It certainly doesn't appear to have much merit with or without a
source.

Cic.

--
==========================================
Using Ubuntu Linux
Windows shown the door
==========================================

Cicero wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 04:41:59 -0700, NT wrote:


On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:17:23 -0700, NT wrote:
"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case
with property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and
your surveyor to determine whether you think there are any
issues with the property that might affect the price you are
willing to pay. I do not intend to take on any of this
responsibility or create a situation in which lawyers can get
rich deciding who might or might not be responsible for what,
and I presume your surveyor is suitably insured against such
eventualities. I presume also that you will fully insure the
property if you purchase it."
NT
snip

Provide the source then - that's quite simple. Perhaps you made it up
yourself? It certainly doesn't appear to have much merit with or without a
source.

I would go further: it is at best banal and meaningless: at worst,
patronisingly offensive. Why on earth should the seller presume
anything about the buyer's attitude to risk, or his surveyor, or about
the fees his lawyer may be charging? If I were the buyer's solicitor
I'd take great delight in exacting revenge for this sort of nonsense,
and if I were the buyer I'd have serious doubts about the stability of
the seller.


--
Kevin Poole
****Use current date to reply (e.g. )****

On Jun 16, 9:33*pm, Kevin Poole wrote:
Cicero wrote:
On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 04:41:59 -0700, NT wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jun 2009 10:17:23 -0700, NT wrote:
"The house and land are sold as seen, as is normally the case
with property sales. The responsibility lies fully with you and
your surveyor to determine whether you think there are any
issues with the property that might affect the price you are
willing to pay. I do not intend to take on any of this
responsibility or create a situation in which lawyers can get
rich deciding who might or might not be responsible for what,
and I presume your surveyor is suitably insured against such
eventualities. I presume also that you will fully insure the
property if you purchase it."
NT
snip

Provide the source then - that's quite simple. Perhaps you made it up
yourself? It certainly doesn't appear to have much merit with or without a
source.

I would go further: it is at best banal and meaningless: at worst,
patronisingly offensive. *Why on earth should the seller presume
anything about the buyer's attitude to risk, or his surveyor, or about
the fees his lawyer may be charging? *If I were the buyer's solicitor
I'd take great delight in exacting revenge for this sort of nonsense,
and if I were the buyer I'd have serious doubts about the stability of
the seller.

I don't think professional misconduct would be appropriate.


NT

Bob Mannix wrote:
Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
Bringing up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its
toll on the house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration.
The back-boiler is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are
problems with the wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem,
and also when the kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets
and wiring that were put in might not meet Building Regulations and
weren't certified.

IANAL but, as far as I am aware, and being in the process of selling myself,
as long as you tell no lies you can sell anything and it is up to the
purchaser to check the condition of the property. It is likely that they
will make an offer subject to survey and then knock bits off the price for
the boiler and the wiring. If you have these done it will sell easier.

I cannot emphasise enough that, while it is ok to play dumb, you *cannot*
tell porkies. If they ask questions, you must answer truthfully. Ditto on
forms - you must answer the form from the solicitor truthfully. If you do
lie, you are opening yourself up for possible disaster later on.

I would turn the sale over to an estate agent and let them do the talking,
filling all forms and questionnaires out diligently and truthfully.


What will happen then of course is that the EA will say nothing at all
about the issue until such time as they have a potential buyer on the
hook, and hopefully after they've spent $$$ on surveyors, mortgage
arrangement fees etc, and are therefore less likely to simply walk away.

(My mum is currently looking to move house locally, and last week saw
what she considered to be the perfect property - she viewed the (empty)
property with the agent and was about to make an offer. However, a
couple of days later she was passing the house and saw the owner in the
drive sweeping up, so stopped for a chat. The guy was very friendly and
helpful, and sadly pointed out the tidemark 2' up the the outside wall
where the floods had reached a couple of years ago, rendering the
property uninsurable; and told her about the planning permission for the
adjacent block of flats which will overlook the otherwise perfect
garden. Mum duly walked away...)

David

Ian_m wrote:
"SeniorCitizen" wrote in message
...

Also posted to uk.legal.

I'd be grateful for comments on the following situation.

After 40 years in the same house, it's getting time to move on.
Bringing up a family, which have now flown the nest, has taken its
toll on the house, which is in need of a fair amount of redecoration.
The back-boiler is 30 years old and won't last forever, and there are
problems with the wiring: it suffers the 'green exudation' problem,
and also when the kitchen was replaced two years ago the extra sockets
and wiring that were put in might not meet Building Regulations and
weren't certified.

Rather than live in a building site for several months - as doing all
the work at one time is the obvious solution - just to remain in an
area we'd much rather move away from, the tentative plan is to sell
the house, hopefully to a keen DIY-er, who can take on the problems,
adjusting the price accordingly.

What is the legal position regarding the wiring? I'm happy to be open
about the problem, but I'd like to avoid the possibility of legal
action being taken.

Thanks for your comments.

My mate sold his mother in laws house without Prat P for the kitchen
electrics no problem. Just stated this fact on house info pack to
solicitor. Also had no Fensa paperwork for kitchen windows (as spotted
by survery) not a problem.

There was some negotiation about Prat P with the buyer, he almost
managed to get the buyer to pay for an electrical inspection (£175), but
buyer finaly agreed it was a waste of time as he was intending to rip it
all out and refit whole house.

Me too. I rewired an entire house over a fairly long period; it started
before Part P came in and finished (ahem) some time afterwards;
certainly long after any amnesty expired. I had a standard electrical
inspection (ie a PIR) done before marketing the property, and in answer
to the question about electrics, said something like 'recently rewired -
report available for inspection'. It didn't raise any issues whatsoever
with the buyer; I suspect they were glad to be able to see a bona fide
report without having to pay for it.

David