Been thinking about my heating system, a mixture of UF and rads. Oil,
modern condensing Mistral boiler. What happens when the oil gets to
£10/litre (est: 2020, when we'll both be 70), and electricity has risen
in price along with it.

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Is it possible to plumb in a wood burning boiler alongside an oil
boiler?

I'm thinking how does one turn it off and on? Damper and heat-dump
radiator in a big thermal store? Run the thing through a thermal store
anyway?

R.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:17:55 +0000, TheOldFellow wrote:

Been thinking about my heating system, a mixture of UF and rads. Oil,
modern condensing Mistral boiler. What happens when the oil gets to
£10/litre (est: 2020, when we'll both be 70), and electricity has risen
in price along with it.

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Arson?

In message , TheOldFellow
writes
Been thinking about my heating system, a mixture of UF and rads. Oil,
modern condensing Mistral boiler. What happens when the oil gets to
£10/litre (est: 2020, when we'll both be 70), and electricity has risen
in price along with it.

Split the house and move in some civil servants? Less to heat and a
secure income plus on site care provision!

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Hmm.... I want to know where all the wood is going to come from. Judging
by the lead time on anything suitable for use in a smokeless zone, half
the world has the same idea.

Is it possible to plumb in a wood burning boiler alongside an oil
boiler?

Apparently. Dunsley-Baker neutraliser or thermal store. There are some
circuit diagrams on the Dunsley site.

I'm thinking how does one turn it off and on? Damper and heat-dump
radiator in a big thermal store? Run the thing through a thermal store
anyway?

Yes. Be aware that the *clean burn* and *airwash* claims may not hold
for stoves with wrap around boilers.

regards
--
Tim Lamb

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:17:55 +0000, TheOldFellow wrote:

Been thinking about my heating system, a mixture of UF and rads. Oil,
modern condensing Mistral boiler. What happens when the oil gets to
£10/litre (est: 2020, when we'll both be 70), and electricity has risen
in price along with it.

Ah but will it 2020 could be when our new nuke stations are coming on
line, if the government pulls their fingers out and the anti nuke lobby
don't get their way. If the latter then oil at £10/l will be the least of
your problems finding food will be much more important.

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner,

Except that every one else will be wanting wood to burn and it's price
will sky rocket as well.

as I don't have the land for a heat pump.

You can get heap pump systems that work with boreholes rather than burried
coils of pipe. Dependant on what is underneath you though, worth an
investigation?

Is there anything else?

More jumpers and better insulation to the house.

Is it possible to plumb in a wood burning boiler alongside an oil
boiler?

Yes. Best to plumb it, the oil boiler and thermal solar panels into a
decent sized heat bank. You can't turn a wood burner on and off that
quickly and if the plumbing is anything but passive you loose one of te
big advantages of having a heat source during power cuts.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...

Yes. Be aware that the *clean burn* and *airwash* claims may not hold for
stoves with wrap around boilers.

I reckon the cool walls make the things a lot more tempramental.

If your experience with a wood burner is eg one of the norwegian ones which
seems to heat a room on two twigs (*), a water-jacketed one would be a bit
of a shock.

Still, we're middle-class so we have one. But that was to replace storage
heaters - if we'd had oil in place we'd have just used that.

OTOH a non-water jacketed one to replace an open fire is a great solution -
they really are so much better.

(* though a lot of that is of course decent insulation)

"TheOldFellow" wrote in message
. ..
Been thinking about my heating system, a mixture of UF and rads. Oil,
modern condensing Mistral boiler. What happens when the oil gets to
£10/litre (est: 2020, when we'll both be 70), and electricity has risen
in price along with it.

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

May be LPG as it is not so suitable for powering road vehicles and aircraft,
and hence its price may not rise so much.

Is it possible to plumb in a wood burning boiler alongside an oil
boiler?

I am not sure that you could have a fully automatic wood burning boiler that
turns itself off and on like an oil or gas boiler to meet demand, or that
you coudl store the heat in any convenient way.

The problem with heat pumps is that the temperature of the water that they
heat tends to be lower requiring a different heat distribution system.

Perhaps in 20 years time they will get nuclear fusion to work.

--
Michael Chare

HI Folks

Michael Chare wrote:
snip
The problem with heat pumps is that the temperature of the water that
they heat tends to be lower requiring a different heat distribution system.

Not necessarily. We have a ground-source heat pump (Hautec HCS-Pn 42)
which provides central heating via radiators (it was actually
retro-fitted into a house which was originally run by an oil-fired boiler).

ISRT that Hautec heat pumps come in different versions - one for
underfloor heating (low temperature) and the other type (like ours) for
radiator heating.

Works fine so far - been installed for nearly 2 years

Adrian

"Clive George" wrote in message
...
"Tim Lamb" wrote in message
...

Yes. Be aware that the *clean burn* and *airwash* claims may not hold for
stoves with wrap around boilers.

I reckon the cool walls make the things a lot more tempramental.

If your experience with a wood burner is eg one of the norwegian ones
which seems to heat a room on two twigs (*), a water-jacketed one would be
a bit of a shock.

Still, we're middle-class so we have one. But that was to replace storage
heaters - if we'd had oil in place we'd have just used that.

What *is* "Middle Class" these days?
Thought the "Class" heirarchy fell apart when Thatcher left Parliament.

Michael Chare wrote:
"TheOldFellow" wrote in message
. ..

May be LPG as it is not so suitable for powering road vehicles and
aircraft, and hence its price may not rise so much.

I beg your pardon? LPG is a brilliant road fuel - my mate's Saab has covered
over 60,000 trouble-free miles on LPG and my own Nissan Maxima QX 3.0 V6,
converted 8 months ago has done 11,800 trouble-free miles so far.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:25:09 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:17:55 +0000, TheOldFellow wrote:

Been thinking about my heating system, a mixture of UF and rads. Oil,
modern condensing Mistral boiler. What happens when the oil gets to
£10/litre (est: 2020, when we'll both be 70), and electricity has risen
in price along with it.

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Arson?

You're fired!
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

PeterC wrote:
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:25:09 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:17:55 +0000, TheOldFellow wrote:

Been thinking about my heating system, a mixture of UF and rads.
Oil, modern condensing Mistral boiler. What happens when the oil
gets to £10/litre (est: 2020, when we'll both be 70), and
electricity has risen in price along with it.

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Arson?

You're fired!

He was only arson about :-)



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"Pete Zahut" dont@bother wrote in message
...
Michael Chare wrote:
"TheOldFellow" wrote in message
. ..

May be LPG as it is not so suitable for powering road vehicles and
aircraft, and hence its price may not rise so much.

I beg your pardon? LPG is a brilliant road fuel - my mate's Saab has
covered over 60,000 trouble-free miles on LPG and my own Nissan Maxima QX
3.0 V6, converted 8 months ago has done 11,800 trouble-free miles so far.

So why are there so few LPG vehicles! The vast majority use petrol or
diesel.

--
Michael Chare

"Adrian" wrote in message
...
HI Folks

Michael Chare wrote:
snip
The problem with heat pumps is that the temperature of the water that
they heat tends to be lower requiring a different heat distribution
system.

Not necessarily. We have a ground-source heat pump (Hautec HCS-Pn 42)
which provides central heating via radiators (it was actually retro-fitted
into a house which was originally run by an oil-fired boiler).

ISRT that Hautec heat pumps come in different versions - one for
underfloor heating (low temperature) and the other type (like ours) for
radiator heating.

Works fine so far - been installed for nearly 2 years



That is interesting. Did you choose the Hautec yourself?

The Hautec web site is not as helpful as it might be

--
Michael Chare

Michael Chare wrote:
"Pete Zahut" dont@bother wrote in message
...
Michael Chare wrote:
"TheOldFellow" wrote in message
. ..

May be LPG as it is not so suitable for powering road vehicles and
aircraft, and hence its price may not rise so much.

I beg your pardon? LPG is a brilliant road fuel - my mate's Saab has
covered over 60,000 trouble-free miles on LPG and my own Nissan
Maxima QX 3.0 V6, converted 8 months ago has done 11,800 trouble-free
miles so
far.

So why are there so few LPG vehicles! The vast majority use petrol or
diesel.

Probably because it costs about 1,700 quid to convert and people don't
want/can't pay that initial outlay. Also a lot of people have misconceptions
about the safety aspect or remember the early systems that caused backfires
strong enough to blow your air filter two blocks away, whereas modern
sequential injection systems are every bit as good as petrol injection. I'm
certainly well chuffed with our conversion anyway.

Michael Chare wrote:

"Pete Zahut" dont@bother wrote in message
...
Michael Chare wrote:
"TheOldFellow" wrote in message
. ..

May be LPG as it is not so suitable for powering road vehicles and
aircraft, and hence its price may not rise so much.

I beg your pardon? LPG is a brilliant road fuel - my mate's Saab has
covered over 60,000 trouble-free miles on LPG and my own Nissan Maxima QX
3.0 V6, converted 8 months ago has done 11,800 trouble-free miles so far.

So why are there so few LPG vehicles! The vast majority use petrol or
diesel.

It's still difficult to find filling stations, not impossible but it
takes thought. The conversion costs are high(ish). The tanks tend to be
small, hence only good for a limited range. Some conversion are vile,
and involve putting a 100litre tank in the boot, hence 100 litres less
for luggage.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:48:01 +0000, (Steve Firth)
wrote:

Michael Chare wrote:

"Pete Zahut" dont@bother wrote in message
...
Michael Chare wrote:
"TheOldFellow" wrote in message
. ..

May be LPG as it is not so suitable for powering road vehicles and
aircraft, and hence its price may not rise so much.

I beg your pardon? LPG is a brilliant road fuel - my mate's Saab has
covered over 60,000 trouble-free miles on LPG and my own Nissan Maxima QX
3.0 V6, converted 8 months ago has done 11,800 trouble-free miles so far.

So why are there so few LPG vehicles! The vast majority use petrol or
diesel.

It's still difficult to find filling stations, not impossible but it
takes thought. The conversion costs are high(ish).

Very important this because everybody but everybody knows that once
he's got a captive audience that has made a substantial investment in
the hardware Gordon Mac ****e-Features will stick a socking great tax
on LPG road fuels as soon as the volume is such that it's economic for
him to do so, and will take almost all the benefit for the "treasury".

There has to be a better word BTW a treasury is where you keep your
money - we only have debts. :-{{

The tanks tend to be
small, hence only good for a limited range. Some conversion are vile,
and involve putting a 100litre tank in the boot, hence 100 litres less
for luggage.

Presumably if you have to go out of your way to get LPG, that in
itself will nullify some of the benefit. I used to have an ASDA credit
card that gave me 2p / litre off road fuel bought at ASDA. I've
stopped using it despite buying DERV, 54 litres at a time, because if
I went more than 2 miles out of my way the "benefit" of using it was
negative, and that's not counting the extra time.

Derek Geldard wrote:

Presumably if you have to go out of your way to get LPG, that in
itself will nullify some of the benefit. I used to have an ASDA credit
card that gave me 2p / litre off road fuel bought at ASDA. I've
stopped using it despite buying DERV, 54 litres at a time, because if
I went more than 2 miles out of my way the "benefit" of using it was
negative, and that's not counting the extra time.

I considered LPG conversion for the 4x4 since it would be possible to at
least break even on the conversion costs and having a 100L LPG + 100L
petrol tank would give a much greater range. However the local garage
charges 54p/litre for LPG and the supply is variable. I see "out of
order" signs on the pump most weeks. At my usual destinations I'm only
aware of one location having more than one LPG station in easy reach. In
Europe LPG seems to be available at every service station or at least in
every town.

On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:25:09 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Got room for a shed? Have a vertical heatpump instead of hyuuuge coils.

http://www.nichollsboreholes.co.uk/groundsource.html

"PCPaul" wrote in message
om...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:25:09 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Got room for a shed? Have a vertical heatpump instead of hyuuuge coils.

http://www.nichollsboreholes.co.uk/groundsource.html

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would last if
say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

In wintery conditions, if that heat is being transferred to houses in close
proximity from underground, then that heat would not be replaced very
quickly, therefore wouldn't the temperature underground cool to near the
temperature of the surface? I appreciate that in summer, some heat might be
replaced through cooling some houses, but I would expect this to be much
lower than the heat taken out in winter.

On Feb 22, 9:17*am, TheOldFellow wrote:
I need a backup 'plan B'. *

Fritter away all your assets on lavish holidays while you are still
able bodied then claim all your fuel and other living costs on
benefits. If you have got unemployed kids or care for someone then you
will rightly get more cash. This isn't meant as a troll response -
just another option which I see many people do with great sucess. They
just know how to work the system. You only have to go to your local
post office on payday to see it in action!

Dave

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 02:27:23 -0800 (PST), Dave Starling wrote:

On Feb 22, 9:17*am, TheOldFellow wrote:
I need a backup 'plan B'. *

Fritter away all your assets on lavish holidays while you are still
able bodied then claim all your fuel and other living costs on
benefits. If you have got unemployed kids or care for someone then you
will rightly get more cash. This isn't meant as a troll response -
just another option which I see many people do with great sucess. They
just know how to work the system. You only have to go to your local
post office on payday to see it in action!

Dave

It is one way of doingit. I do feel a bit p'd off that I'll get nothing
apart from OAP and what I've saved for over the last 40 years, whilst those
who've just spent and not saved will get everything given to them.

Off to the pub... :-)
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:30:58 +0000, Harry Stottle wrote:

"PCPaul" wrote in message
om...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:25:09 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Got room for a shed? Have a vertical heatpump instead of hyuuuge coils.

http://www.nichollsboreholes.co.uk/groundsource.html

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would last
if say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

In wintery conditions, if that heat is being transferred to houses in
close proximity from underground, then that heat would not be replaced
very quickly, therefore wouldn't the temperature underground cool to
near the temperature of the surface? I appreciate that in summer, some
heat might be replaced through cooling some houses, but I would expect
this to be much lower than the heat taken out in winter.

Think about the volumes of earth (and even Earth) involved..

You can scale this up quite a long way, if you drill deep enough. But
you're correct that lots of shallow coils or boreholes in close proximity
wouldn't work so well.

The US Army heated whole barracks worth of their married quarters by
installing ground source heat pumps - but I guess even army housing in
the US has lots more space available per house than the little boxes we
get over here :-(

On Mon, 23 Feb 2009 09:30:58 -0000, Harry Stottle wrote:

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would last
if say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

A very long time, essentially the heat is coming from below not above...
1m soil temperatures only very slowly follow the surface temperature and
even then only by a degree or so. Think caves, they are a pretty constant
55F(ish) all year,

In wintery conditions, if that heat is being transferred to houses in
close proximity from underground, then that heat would not be replaced
very quickly, therefore wouldn't the temperature underground cool to
near the temperature of the surface?

Yes, you are pumping the heat out and you could freeze the soil around the
coil/borehole but heat would still be conducted up from below. This is the
tricky part of the design, you don't want to freeze the soil if you can
help it otherwise heat that you could be pumping out is having to be used
to thaw the ice (OK you have already had that heat when you froze the
ground but...). The overall rate of heat conduction in from below should
not be exceeded (in the long term) by the overall rate of extraction by
the heat pump.

--
Cheers
Dave.

The message et
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these words:

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would last
if say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

A very long time, essentially the heat is coming from below not above...
1m soil temperatures only very slowly follow the surface temperature and
even then only by a degree or so. Think caves, they are a pretty constant
55F(ish) all year,

I can't find it atm but ISTR that the last time this subject came up TNP
provided figures that showed that solar radiation, even in winter, was
the predominant source of heat for ground source heat pumps, or at least
those that relied on shallow pipes. Geo thermal energy from deep
boreholes is obviously a different ball game but how deep do you need to
go before heat from within matches heat from without?

--
Roger Chapman

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 07:29:14 GMT, Roger wrote:

Geo thermal energy from deep boreholes is obviously a different ball
game but how deep do you need to go before heat from within matches heat
from without?

As I said soil temps vary very little at even just a metre down in the UK.
The boreholes for a heat pump system will be around 50m deep.

As you say Geothermal is a different ball game and is passive extraction
of the heat so you need to go deep enough (or be in the right place) such
that your circulating medium is heated to a useful temperature. With a
ground source heat pump system you are actively extracting the heat from
the ground.

--
Cheers
Dave.

"Harry Stottle" wrote in message
...

"PCPaul" wrote in message
om...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:25:09 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Got room for a shed? Have a vertical heatpump instead of hyuuuge coils.

http://www.nichollsboreholes.co.uk/groundsource.html

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would last if
say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

In wintery conditions, if that heat is being transferred to houses in
close
proximity from underground, then that heat would not be replaced very
quickly, therefore wouldn't the temperature underground cool to near the
temperature of the surface? I appreciate that in summer, some heat might
be
replaced through cooling some houses, but I would expect this to be much
lower than the heat taken out in winter.

The sun heats the ground and replenishes the heat. It is solar system
really.

Roger wrote:
The message et
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these words:

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would last
if say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

A very long time, essentially the heat is coming from below not above...
1m soil temperatures only very slowly follow the surface temperature and
even then only by a degree or so. Think caves, they are a pretty constant
55F(ish) all year,

I can't find it atm but ISTR that the last time this subject came up TNP
provided figures that showed that solar radiation, even in winter, was
the predominant source of heat for ground source heat pumps, or at least
those that relied on shallow pipes. Geo thermal energy from deep
boreholes is obviously a different ball game but how deep do you need to
go before heat from within matches heat from without?


The ground is a sufficiently large mass that it tends to average to a
constant, more or less the average of the yearly insolation minus the
average losses. That holds good from about a meter down, to the point at
which geothermal energy takes over. Viz permafrost in Siberia, where the
deep ground is still frozen even in summer when the top layer is warm bog.


I cant remember the references, but it seems that the average earth
temperature is too high to be accounted for by insolation and whatever
heat is left in the core..the implication being that the earth is at
some level a vast fission reactor anyway, as well..

With respect to heat pumps, ground sourced anyway, that means you need
to go down a meter or so, and not expect a huge extraction of last
summers heat as it were...there is a definite rate at which you can pull
heat out, without freezing the ground round the pipe.

It doesn't really make any difference if you go straight down or
horizontally - its the size of the pipe and the soil character that
counts. Soggy clay is best, sand or chalk worst.

An interesting thought is that city based air source pumps will in fact
make use of the energy 'spilt' out of traffic, and poorly insulated
houses. Its pretty true to say that London with in M25 is 2 degrees
warmer at night than here in rural East Anglia.


So whilst winter insolation in itself isn't enough to cover the heat
input, the soil is enough of a thermal store to have plenty left over
from summer.

I saw one Scandinavian design where the air con was actually heating up
the soil beneath the insulated house..making a heatbank there as well,
and the concrete car park which got nice and hot in summer, covered yet
more coils.

IIRC the earths total insolation is about 10-100 times our entire fossil
energy usage. So there is plenty of it. In the UK I think it was about
10:1. The problem is the scale of what would be needed to capture it -
maybe 20% of UK land area covered in 'renewable technology'. For biofuel
the conversion rate is so bad that you need the whole country devoted to
growing it, and none for food..


However, with respect to heat pumps, consider that at least some of the
heat extracted from the ground is replaced by heat escaping from
buildings..and heat pumps are about the cheapest way* of picking up
solar energy that actually do work cost effectively.


* apart from triple glazed windows..

I refer interestsed parties to David Mackays web site and book
http://www.withouthotair.com and Without Hot Air.

Which basically, although that was never his intention as a very
committed cycle riding greenie, blows renewable energy out of the water.

Simply on the scale and energy density required. Never mind the actual COST.

If you wnat carbon free pwer, it boils down right now to three things.
Much better insulation, heat pumps and nuclear power stations. These are
cost effective and capable of doing the whole job at sensible costs.
Nothing else is.

I've put my heatpump plans on hold, largely due to three things

1/. The technology is not yet mass market and is bloody expensive.

2/. The costs go beyond mere installation of a heat pump, as the whole
house heating system is not geared to lots of warm water, but a little
very hot water. I would essentially have to replace half the house
heating..only the UFH would take the heat pump output successfully- and
the hot water tank and radiators and fan convectors would all need
upgrading.

3/. Oil prices have crashed to the point where the economics no longer
make sense over my expected lifetime.


HOWEVER if I were doing a new build, or root and branch refurb, I would
definitely go heat pump with UFH everywhere, And super insulation, a gas
tight house and heat recovery ventilation.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 07:29:14 +0000, Roger wrote:

The message et
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these words:

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would last
if say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

A very long time, essentially the heat is coming from below not above...
1m soil temperatures only very slowly follow the surface temperature and
even then only by a degree or so. Think caves, they are a pretty constant
55F(ish) all year,

I can't find it atm but ISTR that the last time this subject came up TNP
provided figures that showed that solar radiation, even in winter, was
the predominant source of heat for ground source heat pumps, or at least
those that relied on shallow pipes.

Anyone know how shallow? We typically have snow cover from November-March
here, but I believe GSHPs are still viable (ASHP is out; too cold) - and I
doubt there's any solar heating effect in play there.

I believe the criteria's "below the frost line" for the pipework, but
I've not seen any data detailing what level that is for different regions.
It's on the to-do list to drill some test bores and monitor temps one
winter, but I didn't manage to order any suitable sensors this
season before the ground froze solid.

Hopefully GSHPs will become DIY at some point - I could happily borrow a
Bobcat and go do some digging (and a lot of the expense normally seems to
be in the labour), but there's nowhere local to get the parts from, and I
don't think the knowledge of what works and what doesn't is quite in the
public domain yet.

cheers

J.

"Jules" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 07:29:14 +0000, Roger wrote:

The message et
from "Dave Liquorice" contains these
words:

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would last
if say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

A very long time, essentially the heat is coming from below not above...
1m soil temperatures only very slowly follow the surface temperature and
even then only by a degree or so. Think caves, they are a pretty
constant
55F(ish) all year,

I can't find it atm but ISTR that the last time this subject came up TNP
provided figures that showed that solar radiation, even in winter, was
the predominant source of heat for ground source heat pumps, or at least
those that relied on shallow pipes.

Anyone know how shallow? We typically have snow cover from November-March
here, but I believe GSHPs are still viable (ASHP is out; too cold) - and I
doubt there's any solar heating effect in play there.

I believe the criteria's "below the frost line" for the pipework, but
I've not seen any data detailing what level that is for different regions.
It's on the to-do list to drill some test bores and monitor temps one
winter, but I didn't manage to order any suitable sensors this
season before the ground froze solid.

Hopefully GSHPs will become DIY at some point - I could happily borrow a
Bobcat and go do some digging (and a lot of the expense normally seems to
be in the labour), but there's nowhere local to get the parts from, and I
don't think the knowledge of what works and what doesn't is quite in the
public domain yet.

They are DIY. The slinkies are fully DIYable. And that is a the bulk of the
cost.

In message , Doctor Drivel
writes

"Harry Stottle" wrote in message
...

"PCPaul" wrote in message
om...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:25:09 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Got room for a shed? Have a vertical heatpump instead of hyuuuge coils.

http://www.nichollsboreholes.co.uk/groundsource.html

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would last if
say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

In wintery conditions, if that heat is being transferred to houses in
close
proximity from underground, then that heat would not be replaced very
quickly, therefore wouldn't the temperature underground cool to near the
temperature of the surface? I appreciate that in summer, some heat
might be
replaced through cooling some houses, but I would expect this to be much
lower than the heat taken out in winter.

The sun heats the ground and replenishes the heat. It is solar system
really.

House prices still rising are they dIMM ?


--
geoff

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:55:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip interesting stuff

I've put my heatpump plans on hold, largely due to three things

1/. The technology is not yet mass market and is bloody expensive.

2/. The costs go beyond mere installation of a heat pump, as the whole
house heating system is not geared to lots of warm water, but a little
very hot water. I would essentially have to replace half the house
heating..only the UFH would take the heat pump output successfully- and
the hot water tank and radiators and fan convectors would all need
upgrading.

3/. Oil prices have crashed to the point where the economics no longer
make sense over my expected lifetime.


HOWEVER if I were doing a new build, or root and branch refurb, I would
definitely go heat pump with UFH everywhere, And super insulation, a gas
tight house and heat recovery ventilation.

A mate, CORGI engineer and general plumber has recently done a major
refurb of his new (to him) house and done as you suggest (heat pump,
UFH, big water tank thing).

He has done his house this way as a sort of test bed re being able to
provide that as a solution for his own customers.

I believe he imported the pump from the Far East much cheaper than it
would have cost here in the UK.

However I believe he is having (or was having) some teething troubles,
mainly around the pump itself (a risk you take bringing that sort of
thing in yourself I guess).

Luckily he also installed a conventional boiler at the same time. ;-)

From what I have read here re most of the thermal energy coming from
below, would being on top of a hill work against him?

Cheers, T i m

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 12:55:27 +0000, The Natural Philosopher
wrote:

snip interesting stuff

I've put my heatpump plans on hold, largely due to three things

1/. The technology is not yet mass market and is bloody expensive.

2/. The costs go beyond mere installation of a heat pump, as the whole
house heating system is not geared to lots of warm water, but a little
very hot water. I would essentially have to replace half the house
heating..only the UFH would take the heat pump output successfully- and
the hot water tank and radiators and fan convectors would all need
upgrading.

3/. Oil prices have crashed to the point where the economics no longer
make sense over my expected lifetime.


HOWEVER if I were doing a new build, or root and branch refurb, I would
definitely go heat pump with UFH everywhere, And super insulation, a gas
tight house and heat recovery ventilation.

A mate, CORGI engineer and general plumber has recently done a major
refurb of his new (to him) house and done as you suggest (heat pump,
UFH, big water tank thing).

He has done his house this way as a sort of test bed re being able to
provide that as a solution for his own customers.

I believe he imported the pump from the Far East much cheaper than it
would have cost here in the UK.

However I believe he is having (or was having) some teething troubles,
mainly around the pump itself (a risk you take bringing that sort of
thing in yourself I guess).

Luckily he also installed a conventional boiler at the same time. ;-)

From what I have read here re most of the thermal energy coming from
below, would being on top of a hill work against him?

If ground sourced, then if he drilldown deep then no problems. A heat pump
where natural gas pipe is available, is a foolish thing to install.

On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:34:46 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


From what I have read here re most of the thermal energy coming from
below, would being on top of a hill work against him?

If ground sourced, then if he drilldown deep then no problems.

I think he has 3 bore holes but I can't remember how deep (I remember
it sounding pretty deep at the time). I think one was shorter than the
others because it hit something pretty solid (Underground train tunnel
maybe) ;-)

A heat pump
where natural gas pipe is available, is a foolish thing to install.

How come?

T i m

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:59:38 -0600, Jules wrote:

Hopefully GSHPs will become DIY at some point - I could happily borrow a
Bobcat and go do some digging (and a lot of the expense normally seems
to be in the labour),

The big snag withheat pumps pretty much no matter the source is the low
grade heat they produce, 30 to 40C at the most. Suitable for UFH but not
much else so unless you have a suitable UFH system already in place it
becomes very expensive to retro fit. New builds or restoration from a
shell requiring new floor slabs etc is another matter.

--
Cheers
Dave.

On Thu, 26 Feb 2009 09:38:03 +0000 (GMT)
"Dave Liquorice" wrote:

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:59:38 -0600, Jules wrote:

Hopefully GSHPs will become DIY at some point - I could happily borrow a
Bobcat and go do some digging (and a lot of the expense normally seems
to be in the labour),

The big snag withheat pumps pretty much no matter the source is the low
grade heat they produce, 30 to 40C at the most. Suitable for UFH but not
much else so unless you have a suitable UFH system already in place it
becomes very expensive to retro fit. New builds or restoration from a
shell requiring new floor slabs etc is another matter.


What about the new high efficiency radiators?
I know nothing about them, but found these while goggling:

http://www.ecovisionsystems.co.uk/pr...-radiators.htm

They say they work at 40. Bet they cost the earth, though.

R.

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 09:59:38 -0600, Jules wrote:

Hopefully GSHPs will become DIY at some point - I could happily borrow a
Bobcat and go do some digging (and a lot of the expense normally seems
to be in the labour),

The big snag withheat pumps pretty much no matter the source is the low
grade heat they produce, 30 to 40C at the most.

No. The efficiency is proportional to the temperature difference you
pump against. 3:1 will generally see temps around 50C. 4:1 its down
around 35-40C.

There are two stage pumps that can do better, and optionally fitting an
immersion heater coil will net you better temps, but at ever lowering
efficiencies.


Suitable for UFH but not
much else so unless you have a suitable UFH system already in place it
becomes very expensive to retro fit. New builds or restoration from a
shell requiring new floor slabs etc is another matter.


Yup.

"T i m" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 25 Feb 2009 23:34:46 -0000, "Doctor Drivel"
wrote:


From what I have read here re most of the thermal energy coming from
below, would being on top of a hill work against him?

If ground sourced, then if he drilldown deep then no problems.

I think he has 3 bore holes but I can't remember how deep (I remember
it sounding pretty deep at the time). I think one was shorter than the
others because it hit something pretty solid (Underground train tunnel
maybe) ;-)

A heat pump
where natural gas pipe is available, is a foolish thing to install.

How come?

They cost the earth to install and cost no more to run. So no gain
anywhere.

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Drivel
writes

"Harry Stottle" wrote in message
...

"PCPaul" wrote in message
om...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:25:09 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Got room for a shed? Have a vertical heatpump instead of hyuuuge coils.

http://www.nichollsboreholes.co.uk/groundsource.html

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would last
if
say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

In wintery conditions, if that heat is being transferred to houses in
close
proximity from underground, then that heat would not be replaced very
quickly, therefore wouldn't the temperature underground cool to near the
temperature of the surface? I appreciate that in summer, some heat might
be
replaced through cooling some houses, but I would expect this to be much
lower than the heat taken out in winter.

The sun heats the ground and replenishes the heat. It is solar system
really.

House prices still rising are they dIMM ?

Maxie, what are you on about? Please focus on the topic in hand. I know
you are a known fabulist who is also in a Paddy band, but you must focus.
Then your life will be far more complete and meaningful. Yes, Maxie more
complete and meaningful. Your life.

Jules wrote:

On Tue, 24 Feb 2009 07:29:14 +0000, Roger wrote:


Anyone know how shallow? We typically have snow cover from November-March
here, but I believe GSHPs are still viable (ASHP is out; too cold) - and I
doubt there's any solar heating effect in play there.

Mitsubishi do an air source heat pump that is claimed to operate down
to approximately minus 20 degrees centigrade.

Direct link to the brochure pdf:

http://www.mitsubishi-aircon.co.uk/d...e.asp?id=94037

Presumably, at temperatures below the nominal air temperature it is
designed for, you get less heat - you may already have looked into
that.

Cheers,

Sid

In message , Doctor Drivel
writes

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Doctor Drivel
writes

"Harry Stottle" wrote in message
...

"PCPaul" wrote in message
om...
On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:25:09 +0000, Appelation Controlee wrote:

I need a backup 'plan B'. The obvious thing is a wood burner, as I
don't have the land for a heat pump. Is there anything else?

Got room for a shed? Have a vertical heatpump instead of hyuuuge coils.

http://www.nichollsboreholes.co.uk/groundsource.html

I have often wondered how long this underground heat source would
last if
say everyone on an estate had these heat pumps fitted.

In wintery conditions, if that heat is being transferred to houses
close
proximity from underground, then that heat would not be replaced very
quickly, therefore wouldn't the temperature underground cool to near the
temperature of the surface? I appreciate that in summer, some heat
might be
replaced through cooling some houses, but I would expect this to be much
lower than the heat taken out in winter.

The sun heats the ground and replenishes the heat. It is solar
system really.

House prices still rising are they dIMM ?

Maxie, what are you on about?

The fact that you said that they couldn't fall because of the demand.
sometime last year

You sad, sad pathetic deluded old fart



--
geoff