Hi,

Our staircase is open on one side for the bottom 4' or so, so I want to
put in an oak rail there. Attaching the rail to the wall partway up
the stairs seems no problem (I can bolt it via a rosette and then cap
with wooden plugs), and nor does securing the newel post at the bottom
(via some big bolts right through from the basement below).

However, what's the most sensible way to secure the lower end of the rail
(about 2"x2") to the (3"x3") newel post?

I did previously go out and buy a 'kit' to do this - it's just a nut,
headless lag-bolt, and a 1" oak plug - but as the lag-bolt is headless I
expect I'd have to lock two nuts together on the end in order to get the
coarse-threaded end into the newel, then attach newel to the rail, then
secure the newel to the floor (I'm sure I've got another suitable nut
somewhere but am worried about the threads on the bolt getting mashed up,
as presumably the torque needed to get the bolt into the newel via a pilot
hole will be quite high).

So...

1) Do the above anyway,
2) Use a different lag-bolt with a head on it,
3) Use an even longer lag-bolt and go right through the newel post (and
cap with the oak plug) from the 'outside' edge of the newel,
4) Just use a couple of normal wood screws (I've seen this suggested, but
it doesn't sound very strong!),
5) Something else entirely?

(And whilst I'm at it, if using a lag-bolt approach, presumably it's wise
to dowel between the rail and newel too, just to keep things in line? I
should have enough space in the rail-end to fit both a dowel and lag-bolt
through)

Fortunately I do have a 3" long newel offcut to practice on, as the newel
was otherwise too high for the 3' rail height that we wanted :-)

cheers & happy you-know-what,

Jules

On Jan 1, 6:20 am, Jules
wrote:
Hi,

Our staircase is open on one side for the bottom 4' or so, so I want to
put in an oak rail there. Attaching the rail to the wall partway up
the stairs seems no problem (I can bolt it via a rosette and then cap
with wooden plugs), and nor does securing the newel post at the bottom
(via some big bolts right through from the basement below).

However, what's the most sensible way to secure the lower end of the rail
(about 2"x2") to the (3"x3") newel post?

I did previously go out and buy a 'kit' to do this - it's just a nut,
headless lag-bolt, and a 1" oak plug - but as the lag-bolt is headless I
expect I'd have to lock two nuts together on the end in order to get the
coarse-threaded end into the newel, then attach newel to the rail, then
secure the newel to the floor (I'm sure I've got another suitable nut
somewhere but am worried about the threads on the bolt getting mashed up,
as presumably the torque needed to get the bolt into the newel via a pilot
hole will be quite high).

So...

1) Do the above anyway,
2) Use a different lag-bolt with a head on it,
3) Use an even longer lag-bolt and go right through the newel post (and
cap with the oak plug) from the 'outside' edge of the newel,
4) Just use a couple of normal wood screws (I've seen this suggested, but
it doesn't sound very strong!),
5) Something else entirely?

(And whilst I'm at it, if using a lag-bolt approach, presumably it's wise
to dowel between the rail and newel too, just to keep things in line? I
should have enough space in the rail-end to fit both a dowel and lag-bolt
through)

Fortunately I do have a 3" long newel offcut to practice on, as the newel
was otherwise too high for the 3' rail height that we wanted :-)

I'd use a chisel to make a 2"x2" hole in the newel. And put a screw
underneath the rail diagonally into the newel post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon

On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:04:59 -0800 (PST), Matty F
wrote:

I'd use a chisel to make a 2"x2" hole in the newel. And put a screw
underneath the rail diagonally into the newel post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon

I was always taught that it was a "mortice" rather than a "mortise",
and the reference to a "stub mortise" was to me a "stopped mortice".

--
Frank Erskine

On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:04:59 -0800, Matty F wrote:
I'd use a chisel to make a 2"x2" hole in the newel. And put a screw
underneath the rail diagonally into the newel post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon

Hmm, I could probably get away with something like 1.5" x 1.5" - the
rail's a pretty intricate shape, so carving a mortise to get it to fit
as-is would be hard, but I could probably fashion a square tenon
protruding from the end of the rail.

Think a conventional screw would be strong enough, though? I expect
there'd be quite a bit of lateral load put on the joint every time
someone grabs the top of the newel as they head up the stairs. I think
there'd probably still be space for the lag-bolt though - and I did a
test with my piece of scrap newel and lock-nutted bolt and it seemed to go
in OK so long as I kept backing it off a little every few turns, so maybe
that's the best bet...

cheers!

J.

On Jan 3, 5:42 am, Jules
wrote:
On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:04:59 -0800, Matty F wrote:
I'd use a chisel to make a 2"x2" hole in the newel. And put a screw
underneath the rail diagonally into the newel post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon

Hmm, I could probably get away with something like 1.5" x 1.5" - the
rail's a pretty intricate shape, so carving a mortise to get it to fit
as-is would be hard, but I could probably fashion a square tenon
protruding from the end of the rail.

Think a conventional screw would be strong enough, though? I expect
there'd be quite a bit of lateral load put on the joint every time
someone grabs the top of the newel as they head up the stairs. I think
there'd probably still be space for the lag-bolt though - and I did a
test with my piece of scrap newel and lock-nutted bolt and it seemed to go
in OK so long as I kept backing it off a little every few turns, so maybe
that's the best bet...

This is what I was proposing:
http://i44.tinypic.com/rutb9h.jpg

however I have some rather large screws in my junkbox!

On Jan 2, 4:50*pm, Matty F wrote:
On Jan 3, 5:42 am, Jules
wrote:





On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:04:59 -0800, Matty F wrote:
I'd use a chisel to make a 2"x2" hole in the newel. And put a screw
underneath the rail diagonally into the newel post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortise_and_tenon

Hmm, I could probably get away with something like 1.5" x 1.5" - the
rail's a pretty intricate shape, so carving a mortise to get it to fit
as-is would be hard, but I could probably fashion a square tenon
protruding from the end of the rail.

Think a conventional screw would be strong enough, though? I expect
there'd be quite a bit of lateral load put on the joint every time
someone grabs the top of the newel as they head up the stairs. I think
there'd probably still be space for the lag-bolt though - and I did a
test with my piece of scrap newel and lock-nutted bolt and it seemed to go
in OK so long as I kept backing it off a little every few turns, so maybe
that's the best bet...

This is what I was proposing:http://i44.tinypic.com/rutb9h.jpg

however I have some rather large screws in my junkbox!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are also some pretty aggressive glues these days! Think about
those?

For example we took apart repaired and then glued and screwed the
framing of the front of an old 'truck camper' (sort of like caravan
unit that slides into back of a pickup truck). It was actually the
part that sticks out at the front of such a unit above the cab of the
vehicle and it contains a non opening window . They are notorious,
like the front of some caravans) for having rain driven into
interstices etc. and then developing rot! **

Then found had to take it apart (again)! The glue, which was only a
few days old, was so strong that in some cases it removed a layer of
wood from the surfaces of the adjoining pieces. Basically had to
'break' some pieces apart!

So in addition to some sort of 'mortise/tenon', gluing the surfaces
might be good idea. Just don't try to take it apart again; or expect
some sawing if you!

On Sat, 03 Jan 2009 00:03:23 -0800, terry wrote:
There are also some pretty aggressive glues these days! Think about
those?

True, there are... I'm wondering if the joint between the rail and newel
is probably going to loosen a little over time regardless of what's done -
so actually it might be better to not use any glue just so it can be
tightened up again ten years down the line if it has worked a little
loose.

In the end I've gone for a combination of lag-bolt and dowel to hold
things together (mainly because I don't have any good chisels handy, and
we're snowed in today so can't go and get some) and I'll see how that
goes over the coming weeks - if needed I can put a different bit of rail
in along with a m&t joint later (and re-use the current bit of rail
elsewhere; I've got a spot upstairs where I'll need a shorter run one day
anyway)

Thanks for all the thoughts, all.

cheers

Jules