Hi, a theoretical question aimed at gas engineers. I'm part of a
small team developing applications for BlackBerry mobile phones and we
are looking to produce a product for gas engineers whether one person
businesses or larger operations.

Features will be along the lines of.
1. Job scheduling and management (jobs scheduled from partner,
secretarial service or web pages?).
2. Automatic creation of invoices and mailing out (as a service?).
3. Ability to look up parts manuals for part numbers and pictures of
parts for identification.
4. Ability to check up parts inventories by linking online to
wholesalers.
5. Ability to follow fault finding flow diagrams to aid resolution of
problems on boilers etc.
6. Calendar regular visits for services and certificates.
7. Reference regulatory manuals and documentation.
8. Produce regulatory documentation such as safety certificates.

BlackBerry does all the usual stuff such as working as a mobile phone
and storing contacts. Plus it can do other jobs such as turn by turn
sat-nav. Pricing yet to be defined but likely a monthly fee.

Idea being to provide an easy to use professional tool for engineers
to use to help them when out and about with an emphasis on managing
the admin and paper work, in particular getting invoices out promptly,
and in identifying parts needed quickly in order to reduce waiti times
for customers.

I think Corgi had a bash at doing something on Windows Mobile PDAs
like this a while back which never really worked.

I'd be real interested any feedback and

wrote:
Hi, a theoretical question aimed at gas engineers. I'm part of a
small team developing applications for BlackBerry mobile phones and we
are looking to produce a product for gas engineers whether one person
businesses or larger operations.

Is the blackberry handset qualified as intrinsically safe in an
explosive environment?

--
Adrian C

In message , Adrian C
wrote
wrote:
Hi, a theoretical question aimed at gas engineers. I'm part of a
small team developing applications for BlackBerry mobile phones and we
are looking to produce a product for gas engineers whether one person
businesses or larger operations.

Is the blackberry handset qualified as intrinsically safe in an
explosive environment?



No
From the documentation on the blackberry site

The BlackBerry device is not an intrinsically safe device and is not
suitable for use in hazardous environments, where such devices are
required, including without limitation, in presence of gas
fumes, explosive dust situations, operation of nuclear facilities,
aircraft navigation or communication services, air traffic control, and
life support or weapons systems.

http://na.blackberry.com/eng/deliver...7/8220_SIB.pdf

--
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

"Adrian C" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Hi, a theoretical question aimed at gas engineers. I'm part of a
small team developing applications for BlackBerry mobile phones and we
are looking to produce a product for gas engineers whether one person
businesses or larger operations.

Is the blackberry handset qualified as intrinsically safe in an explosive
environment?


But, as any air hostess will tell you, they do have a flight-safe mode.

Actually, this is something I haven't really thought about,
I well understand the dangers, albeit theoretical, of hand held
transmitters in petrol forecourts, and it makes sense to extend
the precaution to other potentially explosive situations, but
as things stand, are gas engineers required or advised
not to take phones into these situations?

--
Graham.

%Profound_observation%

In message , Graham.
writes

"Adrian C" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Hi, a theoretical question aimed at gas engineers. I'm part of a
small team developing applications for BlackBerry mobile phones and we
are looking to produce a product for gas engineers whether one person
businesses or larger operations.

Is the blackberry handset qualified as intrinsically safe in an explosive
environment?


But, as any air hostess will tell you, they do have a flight-safe mode.

Actually, this is something I haven't really thought about,
I well understand the dangers, albeit theoretical, of hand held
transmitters in petrol forecourts, and it makes sense to extend
the precaution to other potentially explosive situations, but
as things stand, are gas engineers required or advised
not to take phones into these situations?

When JCB went through the gas pipe at the entrance to our estate, one
of the gas "engineers" (as you like to call them) was standing there
smoking a roll up looking down into the hole

a) not hot enough

b) domestic gas is only explosive between 5 and 15% concentration

I think that the practical possibility of a mobile phone causing an
explosion is somewhere on the region of zero



--
geoff

In message , geoff
writes
I think that the practical possibility of a mobile phone causing an
explosion is somewhere on the region of zero

This sort of discussion always reminds me of a talk on risk I remember
from years back. "Are you willing to take a risk if the odds are 1000
to 1?" Most people would say "yes." "OK here is a jar with 1000
smarties in it, plus one that has cyanide in it, would you like to take
one?" answer was normally "no"

With mobile phones and the hazard on garage forecourts the bigger risk
is if they are dropped and break in a way to cause sparks or a fire in
the phone, very remote but possible, I have had a portable radio, walkie
talkie, catch fire due to a fault and would not have wanted to be near
any explosive gas mix.

So is it worth the risk if it can be avoided? No.






--
Bill

In message , Bill
writes
In message , geoff
writes
I think that the practical possibility of a mobile phone causing an
explosion is somewhere on the region of zero

This sort of discussion always reminds me of a talk on risk I remember
from years back. "Are you willing to take a risk if the odds are 1000
to 1?" Most people would say "yes." "OK here is a jar with 1000
smarties in it, plus one that has cyanide in it, would you like to take
one?" answer was normally "no"

With mobile phones and the hazard on garage forecourts the bigger risk
is if they are dropped and break in a way to cause sparks or a fire in
the phone, very remote but possible,

and the risk of a spark from e.g. dropping your keys ?

--
geoff

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:34:01 +0000, geoff wrote:

and the risk of a spark from e.g. dropping your keys ?

Keys tend to be brass, thus don;t spark. Iron or steel is normally
required to make a spark. I agree the risk from a mobile phone is minimal,
they don't after all take any precautions to prevent static discharge. May
be an urban myth but the a reason for the ban of transmitters on
forecourts is so the electronics in the pumps doesn't get confused and
misread...

--
Cheers
Dave.

Bill wrote:
In message , geoff
writes
I think that the practical possibility of a mobile phone causing an
explosion is somewhere on the region of zero

This sort of discussion always reminds me of a talk on risk I remember
from years back. "Are you willing to take a risk if the odds are
1000 to 1?" Most people would say "yes." "OK here is a jar with 1000
smarties in it, plus one that has cyanide in it, would you like to
take one?" answer was normally "no"

Surely that depends on how much you like Smarties? I don't eat sweets,
biscuits or chocolate, neither do I take sugar simply because I can't stand
the taste of sweet things. I wouldn't eat a Smartie if you paid me [1].

With mobile phones and the hazard on garage forecourts the bigger risk
is if they are dropped and break in a way to cause sparks or a fire in
the phone, very remote but possible, I have had a portable radio,
walkie talkie, catch fire due to a fault and would not have wanted to
be near any explosive gas mix.

So what about the alternator, distributor, HT leads etc in a car/motorbike
engine?

[1] OK, it would depend on how much :-)

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In message , The Medway
Handyman writes
Surely that depends on how much you like Smarties? I don't eat sweets,
biscuits or chocolate, neither do I take sugar simply because I can't stand
the taste of sweet things. I wouldn't eat a Smartie if you paid me [1].

With mobile phones and the hazard on garage forecourts the bigger risk
is if they are dropped and break in a way to cause sparks or a fire in
the phone, very remote but possible, I have had a portable radio,
walkie talkie, catch fire due to a fault and would not have wanted to
be near any explosive gas mix.

So what about the alternator, distributor, HT leads etc in a car/motorbike
engine?
Indeed, not all risks can be removed, although I have worked in a few
refineries and in at least one petrol engined vehicles are not allowed
onto all of the site, whereas diesel are. So a slight reduction of risk
there.


[1] OK, it would depend on how much :-)

:-) :-)



--
Bill

In message et, Dave
Liquorice writes
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:34:01 +0000, geoff wrote:

and the risk of a spark from e.g. dropping your keys ?

Keys tend to be brass, thus don;t spark.

not mine - only the yale key is

Iron or steel is normally
required to make a spark. I agree the risk from a mobile phone is minimal,
they don't after all take any precautions to prevent static discharge. May
be an urban myth but the a reason for the ban of transmitters on
forecourts is so the electronics in the pumps doesn't get confused and
misread...

I think it's as case of "we don't know, so we'll ban them anyway"


--
geoff

"Bill" wrote in message
...
In message , geoff
writes
I think that the practical possibility of a mobile phone causing an
explosion is somewhere on the region of zero

This sort of discussion always reminds me of a talk on risk I remember
from years back. "Are you willing to take a risk if the odds are 1000
to 1?" Most people would say "yes." "OK here is a jar with 1000
smarties in it, plus one that has cyanide in it, would you like to take
one?" answer was normally "no"

That would depend upon the returns of the risk.

What would be offered in return for eating a random smartie from that jar?

1001 to 1 odds as you have added an extra smartie.

If you win a free McDonalds meal then the take up would be less than if you
offered a million pounds for surviving (some council estates could prove me
wrong on that offer).

Adam

Dave Liquorice wrote:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:34:01 +0000, geoff wrote:

and the risk of a spark from e.g. dropping your keys ?

Keys tend to be brass, thus don;t spark. Iron or steel is normally
required to make a spark. I agree the risk from a mobile phone is minimal,
they don't after all take any precautions to prevent static discharge. May
be an urban myth but the a reason for the ban of transmitters on
forecourts is so the electronics in the pumps doesn't get confused and
misread...

I recall a news story from a few years back when CB radio was the craze.
There were cases of people using high power RF amps on their CBs to make
the adjacent pump under read.

--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

geoff wrote:

be an urban myth but the a reason for the ban of transmitters on
forecourts is so the electronics in the pumps doesn't get confused and
misread...

I think it's as case of "we don't know, so we'll ban them anyway"

Yet they are happy to host a base station hidden in the petrol price
sign... ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

/================================================== ===============\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

"Dave Liquorice" wrote in message
ll.net...
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:34:01 +0000, geoff wrote:

and the risk of a spark from e.g. dropping your keys ?

Keys tend to be brass, thus don;t spark.

Lets see..

steel
steel
brassed steel
steel
steel
brass
and a steel key ring
and a steel id plate

Iron or steel is normally
required to make a spark. I agree the risk from a mobile phone is minimal,
they don't after all take any precautions to prevent static discharge. May
be an urban myth but the a reason for the ban of transmitters on
forecourts is so the electronics in the pumps doesn't get confused and
misread...

The reason is that all radio equipment has to comply with the regulations
which predate mobiles.
If they ever update the regs they may allow mobiles but I doubt it for two
reasons..

You don't want some pillock being distracted by a mobile while they are
filling up.

If you drop a mobile and it get run over there is a good chance the battery
will short and Li batteries are quite good at exploding.

wrote:
Hi, a theoretical question aimed at gas engineers. I'm part of a
small team developing applications for BlackBerry mobile phones and we
are looking to produce a product for gas engineers whether one person
businesses or larger operations.

All very worthy services, however personally I would be interested having
very few of these services on a Blackberry or a.n. other PDA. But then
again I'm not a gas engineer, although have designed and installed large
multi-point gas monitoring systems.


Features will be along the lines of.
1. Job scheduling and management (jobs scheduled from partner,
secretarial service or web pages?).

possibly

2. Automatic creation of invoices and mailing out (as a service?).

No
3. Ability to look up parts manuals for part numbers and pictures of
parts for identification.

No. For this and pretty much everything that follows something like an Asus
EEE and web access would be my preferred option. While I use a PDA daily I
would not want to use such a tiny screen for looking at any sort of detailed
documentation. I'd much rather have a laptop, or EEE at a minimum, hooked up
to a 3G service and receive the information that way.

4. Ability to check up parts inventories by linking online to
wholesalers.
5. Ability to follow fault finding flow diagrams to aid resolution of
problems on boilers etc.
6. Calendar regular visits for services and certificates.
possibly

7. Reference regulatory manuals and documentation.
8. Produce regulatory documentation such as safety certificates.

BlackBerry does all the usual stuff such as working as a mobile phone
and storing contacts. Plus it can do other jobs such as turn by turn
sat-nav. Pricing yet to be defined but likely a monthly fee.

Idea being to provide an easy to use professional tool for engineers
to use to help them when out and about with an emphasis on managing
the admin and paper work, in particular getting invoices out promptly,
and in identifying parts needed quickly in order to reduce waiti times
for customers.

I think Corgi had a bash at doing something on Windows Mobile PDAs
like this a while back which never really worked.

I'd be real interested any feedback and

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Adrian C
saying something like:

Is the blackberry handset qualified as intrinsically safe in an
explosive environment?

Ie, does it spark when you lob it at the wall?

"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Bill
writes
In message , geoff
writes
I think that the practical possibility of a mobile phone causing an
explosion is somewhere on the region of zero

This sort of discussion always reminds me of a talk on risk I remember
from years back. "Are you willing to take a risk if the odds are 1000 to
1?" Most people would say "yes." "OK here is a jar with 1000 smarties in
it, plus one that has cyanide in it, would you like to take one?" answer
was normally "no"

With mobile phones and the hazard on garage forecourts the bigger risk is
if they are dropped and break in a way to cause sparks or a fire in the
phone, very remote but possible,

and the risk of a spark from e.g. dropping your keys ?

All bollox !

Bloke in USA was hit by a bolt of lightning around 3 weeks ago on a
forecourt while filling with fuels. Made the international news complete
with CCTV footage of the actual event.
So a mobile phone, keys or for that matter a chav bird smoking a roll up
while her Burberry capped dum**** boyfriend fills up from a filing station
in darkest Essex isn't likely to start a blaze.
Where is there *any* evidence of a phone or anything remotely like it
causing an explosion at a pump ?

RW wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message
...
In message , Bill
writes
In message , geoff
writes
I think that the practical possibility of a mobile phone causing an
explosion is somewhere on the region of zero
This sort of discussion always reminds me of a talk on risk I remember
from years back. "Are you willing to take a risk if the odds are 1000 to
1?" Most people would say "yes." "OK here is a jar with 1000 smarties in
it, plus one that has cyanide in it, would you like to take one?" answer
was normally "no"

With mobile phones and the hazard on garage forecourts the bigger risk is
if they are dropped and break in a way to cause sparks or a fire in the
phone, very remote but possible,
and the risk of a spark from e.g. dropping your keys ?

All bollox !

Bloke in USA was hit by a bolt of lightning around 3 weeks ago on a
forecourt while filling with fuels. Made the international news complete
with CCTV footage of the actual event.
So a mobile phone, keys or for that matter a chav bird smoking a roll up
while her Burberry capped dum**** boyfriend fills up from a filing station
in darkest Essex isn't likely to start a blaze.
Where is there *any* evidence of a phone or anything remotely like it
causing an explosion at a pump ?




As others have said they are more likely to be concerned with EMC issues and
whether that could subsequently cause any billing errors.

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Bill
saying something like:

With mobile phones and the hazard on garage forecourts the bigger risk
is if they are dropped and break in a way to cause sparks or a fire in
the phone, very remote but possible, I have had a portable radio, walkie
talkie, catch fire due to a fault and would not have wanted to be near
any explosive gas mix.

So is it worth the risk if it can be avoided? No.

What a load of scare-mongering ********.

On Oct 27, 5:59*pm, "RW" wrote:

Bloke in USA was hit by a bolt of lightning around 3 weeks ago on a
forecourt while filling with fuels. Made the international news complete
with CCTV footage of the actual event.

He was lucky.

So a mobile phone, keys or for that matter a chav bird smoking a roll up
while her Burberry capped dum**** boyfriend fills up from a filing station
in darkest Essex isn't likely to start a blaze.
Where is there *any* evidence of a phone or anything remotely like it
causing an explosion at a pump ?

There is footage of a static discharge causing a fire whilst someone
was filling up. It's been on telly enough times.

MBQ

Man at B&Q wrote:
On Oct 27, 5:59 pm, "RW" wrote:
Bloke in USA was hit by a bolt of lightning around 3 weeks ago on a
forecourt while filling with fuels. Made the international news complete
with CCTV footage of the actual event.

He was lucky.

So a mobile phone, keys or for that matter a chav bird smoking a roll up
while her Burberry capped dum**** boyfriend fills up from a filing station
in darkest Essex isn't likely to start a blaze.
Where is there *any* evidence of a phone or anything remotely like it
causing an explosion at a pump ?

There is footage of a static discharge causing a fire whilst someone
was filling up. It's been on telly enough times.

MBQ

I beg to differ - he was jolly UNlucky. :-)

But going back slightly - did police cars with older, heavy duty radios
ever turn them off in proximity to petrol stations or other explosive risks?

Do they turn all transmitters in the area off when fuelling planes at
Heathrow?

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

"Rod" wrote in message
...
Man at B&Q wrote:
On Oct 27, 5:59 pm, "RW" wrote:
Bloke in USA was hit by a bolt of lightning around 3 weeks ago on a
forecourt while filling with fuels. Made the international news complete
with CCTV footage of the actual event.

He was lucky.

So a mobile phone, keys or for that matter a chav bird smoking a roll up
while her Burberry capped dum**** boyfriend fills up from a filing
station
in darkest Essex isn't likely to start a blaze.
Where is there *any* evidence of a phone or anything remotely like it
causing an explosion at a pump ?

There is footage of a static discharge causing a fire whilst someone
was filling up. It's been on telly enough times.

MBQ

I beg to differ - he was jolly UNlucky. :-)

But going back slightly - did police cars with older, heavy duty radios
ever turn them off in proximity to petrol stations or other explosive
risks?

Did they comply with the regulations?


Do they turn all transmitters in the area off when fuelling planes at
Heathrow?

Do they comply with the safety regulations so they are permitted devices?
Does anyone make a mobile that complies with the regulations so you can use
it at a fuel station?

In article ,
"Man at B&Q" writes:
On Oct 27, 5:59*pm, "RW" wrote:

Bloke in USA was hit by a bolt of lightning around 3 weeks ago on a
forecourt while filling with fuels. Made the international news complete
with CCTV footage of the actual event.
He was lucky.
So a mobile phone, keys or for that matter a chav bird smoking a roll up
while her Burberry capped dum**** boyfriend fills up from a filing station
in darkest Essex isn't likely to start a blaze.
Where is there *any* evidence of a phone or anything remotely like it
causing an explosion at a pump ?
There is footage of a static discharge causing a fire whilst someone
was filling up. It's been on telly enough times.

That's nothing to do with a mobile phone.

A few years back, long after those messages had appeared at
filling stations, there had not been not a single case of a
mobile igniting fuel at a filling station. I've not heard of
one since then either.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]