I changed the screw-thread 60w tungsten bulb for an 11w low energy job and
now it won't turn itself off. Any ideas why?

Si

Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot wrote:
I changed the screw-thread 60w tungsten bulb for an 11w low energy
job and now it won't turn itself off. Any ideas why?

Someone more knowledgeable than me will be along in a minute I'm sure, but I
suspect PIR's & low energy bulbs don't mix?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

"Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot" wrote in message
...
I changed the screw-thread 60w tungsten bulb for an 11w low energy job and
now it won't turn itself off. Any ideas why?

Si



A fundamental difference between regular tungsten lamps and low-energy ones
it the current required to light them up.

A tungsten lamp is a low-impedance device, which requires a reasonable
amount of current to light up.

A low-energy lamp can illuminate with a minimal amount of current : even
minimal leakage current in some cases.

It seems that the PIR switching device has enough leakage current in it's
'off' state to light the low-energy lamp.

You need to change the PIR device to one with a lower leakage, or put back
the tungsten lamp, or do some electronic trick-****ery perhaps involving a
relay, or spoons.

--
Ron

The Medway Handyman wrote:
Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot wrote:
I changed the screw-thread 60w tungsten bulb for an 11w low energy
job and now it won't turn itself off. Any ideas why?

Someone more knowledgeable than me will be along in a minute I'm
sure, but I suspect PIR's & low energy bulbs don't mix?

So it would appear. Thanks Dave.

Si

Ron Lowe wrote:
"Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot" wrote in
message ...
I changed the screw-thread 60w tungsten bulb for an 11w low energy
job and now it won't turn itself off. Any ideas why?

Si



A fundamental difference between regular tungsten lamps and
low-energy ones it the current required to light them up.

A tungsten lamp is a low-impedance device, which requires a reasonable
amount of current to light up.

A low-energy lamp can illuminate with a minimal amount of current :
even minimal leakage current in some cases.

It seems that the PIR switching device has enough leakage current in
it's 'off' state to light the low-energy lamp.

You need to change the PIR device to one with a lower leakage, or put
back the tungsten lamp, or do some electronic trick-****ery perhaps
involving a relay, or spoons.

Buggery ********. Ah well, I tried to do my bit for the world and it farted
in my face. Arseholes to it.

Si

In article ,
"Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot" writes:

Buggery ********. Ah well, I tried to do my bit for the world and it farted
in my face. Arseholes to it.

I'm all for low energy lamps, but using them in a PIR controlled
lamp which lights for only a short time anyway doesn't make sense.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

On 24 Oct 2008 20:11:41 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

I'm all for low energy lamps, but using them in a PIR controlled
lamp which lights for only a short time anyway doesn't make sense.

Perhaps going OT, but I've long wondered what are the plans for dimming
circuits and such when traditional incandescent bulbs are retired. Half our
house uses such dimmers, and all the low energy bulbs I've seen state
they're incompatible.

On 24 Oct, 21:11, (Andrew Gabriel) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * "Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot" writes:



Buggery ********. Ah well, I tried to do my bit for the world and it farted
in my face. Arseholes to it.

I'm all for low energy lamps, but using them in a PIR controlled
lamp which lights for only a short time anyway doesn't make sense.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Yes, obviously Mr MTST isn't aware that fluorescent lights take a
whack of current at start up that certainly negates anything gained if
the duty cycle is short. Let alone the 'dim glim' one gets initially
which equally negates the point of the PIR.

Having said that I am a little curious as to why this light stays on
as all PIR's that I've fitted, played with, etc, over the years are
relay switched and as that is an open contact, it's no different from
a household light switch. It would seem that this one is an
electronic switch - is that unusual? Rather precludes my
configuration (in two places) of having a second PIR to switch the
light on.

Rob

On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:04:09 +0100, "Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot"
wrote:


Buggery ********. Ah well, I tried to do my bit for the world and it farted
in my face. Arseholes to it.

You.........you don't mean???.............you don't mean you are going
to become one of those Ecoterrorists and use a naked tungsten bulb???

GULP

Think of the little children that would, be saved if you used an
eco******** bulb! Whole swathes of countryside saved form destruction.

Please reconsider!

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot" writes:

Buggery ********. Ah well, I tried to do my bit for the world and it
farted in my face. Arseholes to it.

I'm all for low energy lamps, but using them in a PIR controlled
lamp which lights for only a short time anyway doesn't make sense.

You know how many times it's triggered do you?

Si

robgraham wrote:

Yes, obviously Mr MTST isn't aware that fluorescent lights take a
whack of current at start up that certainly negates anything gained if
the duty cycle is short.

He wasn't.

Having said that I am a little curious as to why this light stays on

Me an' all. Most ****adointing.

Si

In article ,
"Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot" writes:
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot" writes:

Buggery ********. Ah well, I tried to do my bit for the world and it
farted in my face. Arseholes to it.

I'm all for low energy lamps, but using them in a PIR controlled
lamp which lights for only a short time anyway doesn't make sense.

You know how many times it's triggered do you?

Doesn't matter. The only time these become viable is if
the ON time is set very long (e.g. more than an hour),
as with occupancy sensors.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Ron Lowe wrote:

"Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot" wrote in message
...
I changed the screw-thread 60w tungsten bulb for an 11w low energy job and
now it won't turn itself off. Any ideas why?

Si



A fundamental difference between regular tungsten lamps and low-energy ones
it the current required to light them up.

A tungsten lamp is a low-impedance device, which requires a reasonable
amount of current to light up.

A low-energy lamp can illuminate with a minimal amount of current : even
minimal leakage current in some cases.

It seems that the PIR switching device has enough leakage current in it's
'off' state to light the low-energy lamp.

You need to change the PIR device to one with a lower leakage, or put back
the tungsten lamp, or do some electronic trick-****ery perhaps involving a
relay, or spoons.

--
Ron

Just to expand on Ron's and other's comments and try to make it
clearer there are two sorts of PIRs you'll find in the shops.
Expensive (properly designed in my opinion) ones require a live and a
neutral and provide a switched live output. These will work with any
sort of bulb. They do pretty much what you'd expect in that they are
a load on the circuit in the normal way, the current they consume goes
"in" the live and "out" the neutral. But that does mean you need a
neutral.

Now nasty ones are a bit different. They are designed as a kludge for
retrofitting in place of a normal light switch. In this situation you
might well find that there is not a handy neutral as typically only a
live and a switched live wire are taken down to a switch as good old
fashioned switches have no need for a neutral. This type of PIR uses
the light bulb itself as a path to neutral with its power flowing "in"
the live and "out" of the switched live, through the bulb and then to
neutral. The trick works fine for normal bulbs as they offer a path
to neutral but they will not give off any light with the tiny currents
involved.
As soon as you fit a low energy bulb in place of the incandesant all
bets are off. Some low energy bulbs don't provide a low enough path
to complete the circuit in their off state so the PIR doesn't work at
all. Some provide a low enough resistance path to complete the
circuit but will still glow a bit at the currents involved. Some will
charge up an input capacitor and give off a flash every so often as
the voltage across it gets high enough to strike the lamp which
discharges the cap, rinse and repeat.

As others have said however you might find that if the light is only
now on for very short times anyway you are OK with a normal bulb. My
hall lighting works this way and I'm very happy with it. The total on
time per day now is probably about 10 minutes whereas previously the
low energy bulb was on all evening.

Hope that helps,
Calvin

On Oct 24, 10:43*pm, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
In article ,
* * * * "Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot" writes:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
"Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot" writes:

Buggery ********. Ah well, I tried to do my bit for the world and it
farted in my face. Arseholes to it.

I'm all for low energy lamps, but using them in a PIR controlled
lamp which lights for only a short time anyway doesn't make sense.

You know how many times it's triggered do you?

Doesn't matter. The only time these become viable is if
the ON time is set very long (e.g. more than an hour),
as with occupancy sensors.


Your average CFL can only manage so many starts in its life. With an
on time of 2 minutes you may find a 1000hr tungsten bulb lasts longer.

Electrodeless CFLs survive ok in PIRs. However they may well come on
at much reduced light output, making them of limited use. Also inital
output in winter can be very low. I'd stick to filaments.


NT

EricP wrote:
On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:04:09 +0100, "Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot"
wrote:


Buggery ********. Ah well, I tried to do my bit for the world and it
farted in my face. Arseholes to it.

You.........you don't mean???.............you don't mean you are going
to become one of those Ecoterrorists and use a naked tungsten bulb???

GULP

Think of the little children that would, be saved if you used an
eco******** bulb! Whole swathes of countryside saved form destruction.

Please reconsider!

Sorry kiddies, sorry countryside, sorry planet (sob)!

Si

Calvin wrote:


Snip

Hope that helps,
Calvin

Certainly did. Well written, that chap.

Si

Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot wrote:


Sorry kiddies, sorry countryside, sorry planet (sob)!


.... WTF did I do with the old bulb??

See, you try to do your bit...

Si

"Michael Atkinson" wrote in message
.. .
On 24 Oct 2008 20:11:41 GMT, Andrew Gabriel wrote:

I'm all for low energy lamps, but using them in a PIR controlled
lamp which lights for only a short time anyway doesn't make sense.

Perhaps going OT, but I've long wondered what are the plans for dimming
circuits and such when traditional incandescent bulbs are retired. Half
our
house uses such dimmers, and all the low energy bulbs I've seen state
they're incompatible.

You can get dimmable low enargy lamps, buy they are expensive

Adam

Calvin wrote:
SNIP

Just to expand on Ron's and other's comments and try to make it
clearer there are two sorts of PIRs you'll find in the shops.
Expensive (properly designed in my opinion) ones require a live and a
neutral and provide a switched live output. These will work with any
sort of bulb.

Calvin.

That all makes sense, but how can you tell the properly designed ones from
the crap ones? I mean without opening the box & taking the thing apart? Is
it just price or are there any indications one might see in the spec? Or
any specific makes?



--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In uk.d-i-y, wrote:
On Oct 24, 10:43*pm, (Andrew Gabriel)
wrote:
In article ,
* * * * "Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot" writes:

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
I'm all for low energy lamps, but using them in a PIR controlled
lamp which lights for only a short time anyway doesn't make sense.

You know how many times it's triggered do you?

Doesn't matter. The only time these become viable is if
the ON time is set very long (e.g. more than an hour),
as with occupancy sensors.

Your average CFL can only manage so many starts in its life. With an
on time of 2 minutes you may find a 1000hr tungsten bulb lasts longer.

Many years ago I replaced tungsten with CFLs in two cupboards. They're
switched by mechanical door-operated switches rather than PIRs but the
usage pattern would be similar. The CFLs definitely seem to last
longer.

--
Mike Barnes

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "Mungo \"Two Sheds\" Toadfoot"
saying something like:

Buggery ********. Ah well, I tried to do my bit for the world and it farted
in my face. Arseholes to it.

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions, doncha know.

The world thanks you for your concern and will be back in service
shortly.

On Fri, 24 Oct 2008 21:23:15 +0100 someone who may be Michael
Atkinson wrote this:-

Perhaps going OT, but I've long wondered what are the plans for dimming
circuits and such when traditional incandescent bulbs are retired. Half our
house uses such dimmers, and all the low energy bulbs I've seen state
they're incompatible.

Some are now dimmable. First there were the on/off switch dimmable
ones which had about four levels, there are now on/off switch
dimmable ones that are continuously variable.

http://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Lighting_Menu_Index/Lamps_and_Tubes_Index/Dimmable_CFL/index.html
has a few examples of ones which are dimmable via an existing dimmer
switch.

There are many frequently repeated myths about energy saving lamps.
Some of them were true with regard to the earliest such lamps, a
quarter of a century ago, but engineering has developed somewhat
since then so it pays to keep up to date. Examples of these myths
include that they should not be switched on/off frequently and they
take a long time to produce light. Both were true a quarter of a
century ago, but have not been true for a decade or more.




--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

In article ,
Mike Barnes writes:

Many years ago I replaced tungsten with CFLs in two cupboards. They're
switched by mechanical door-operated switches rather than PIRs but the
usage pattern would be similar. The CFLs definitely seem to last
longer.

There are areas where filament lamps do particularly badly.
Cupboards with doors banging shut is a common one.
Cooker hoods with fan motor vibration can be another.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

"Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot" wrote in message
...
I changed the screw-thread 60w tungsten bulb for an 11w low energy job and
now it won't turn itself off. Any ideas why?

Si
What is the point in putting a low energy bulb in a PIR light when it takes
a lifetime for the bulb to fire up Even then it will be useless. All to
save what - a couple of pence.? or , and the world

john wrote:
"Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot" wrote in
message ...
I changed the screw-thread 60w tungsten bulb for an 11w low energy
job and now it won't turn itself off. Any ideas why?

Si
What is the point in putting a low energy bulb in a PIR light when it
takes a lifetime for the bulb to fire up Even then it will be
useless. All to save what - a couple of pence.? or , and the world

Ok... It seems to fire up immediately, it's as bright as the bulb that was
in there, the low energy bulb claims a life of 10 years and cost 7p, and...
because I ****ing wanted to. Happy?

Si

john wrote:

What is the point in putting a low energy bulb in a PIR light when it
takes a lifetime for the bulb to fire up *Even then it will be useless.
All to save what - a couple of pence.? or , and the world

The bigger problem is that before long a CFL will be the *only* thing you'll
be able to buy to put in it.

--
Mike Clarke

Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot wrote:
john wrote:
"Mungo "Two Sheds" Toadfoot" wrote in
message ...
I changed the screw-thread 60w tungsten bulb for an 11w low energy
job and now it won't turn itself off. Any ideas why?

Si
What is the point in putting a low energy bulb in a PIR light when it
takes a lifetime for the bulb to fire up Even then it will be
useless. All to save what - a couple of pence.? or , and the world

Ok... It seems to fire up immediately, it's as bright as the bulb that was
in there, the low energy bulb claims a life of 10 years and cost 7p, and...
because I ****ing wanted to. Happy?

Si


Judging by what I have seen recently, CFLs are often cheaper than good
ol' tungsten filament lamps. Ranging from notionally free (from
utilities or wheover it was) to something like 5 for 50p. It is only
decent ones (nice colour, lots of light, fast starting, long lasting,
etc.) that cost more than the last lot of single tungsten lamps I saw
(75p each).

--
Rod

Hypothyroidism is a seriously debilitating condition with an insidious
onset.
Although common it frequently goes undiagnosed.
www.thyromind.info www.thyroiduk.org www.altsupportthyroid.org

Owain wrote:
Michael Atkinson wrote:
Perhaps going OT, but I've long wondered what are the plans for
dimming circuits and such when traditional incandescent bulbs are
retired. Half our house uses such dimmers,

Not to mention the wondrous series-parallel combinations of a couple
of binobs and a Marvel switch.

I thought you wern't going to mention that?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

In uk.d-i-y, Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Mike Barnes writes:

Many years ago I replaced tungsten with CFLs in two cupboards. They're
switched by mechanical door-operated switches rather than PIRs but the
usage pattern would be similar. The CFLs definitely seem to last
longer.

There are areas where filament lamps do particularly badly.
Cupboards with doors banging shut is a common one.
Cooker hoods with fan motor vibration can be another.

I take your point but "cupboards" didn't convey the right impression -
my fault. They're actually store rooms with the lights mounted on the
plasterboard ceiling, a good metre away from the door.

--
Mike Barnes

The Medway Handyman wrote:

Calvin wrote:
SNIP

Just to expand on Ron's and other's comments and try to make it
clearer there are two sorts of PIRs you'll find in the shops.
Expensive (properly designed in my opinion) ones require a live and a
neutral and provide a switched live output. These will work with any
sort of bulb.

Calvin.

That all makes sense, but how can you tell the properly designed ones from
the crap ones? I mean without opening the box & taking the thing apart? Is
it just price or are there any indications one might see in the spec? Or
any specific makes?

--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

I'm not sure you can tell good quality from bad from the outside.
Price is a negative indicator in that if it's cheap then for sure
someones cut a cormer somewhere. The trouble is that something being
expensive doesn't guarantee quality.

Anyway since writing that note on PIRs I've been thinking a bit more
about it and I guess I was a bit harsh on the in-line ones. It's a
kludge for sure and it definitely has its drawbacks, like not being
able to use most CFLs, but maybe it's actually a clever bit of design
to allow you to fit it in place of a normal switch without the hassle
of running a neutral to the patress box. What they could maybe do a
little better is explain some of that in the instructions, mine gave a
range of wattages for different types of bulb and even though my CFL
was within the range it flashed. Not much thought later I'd realised
that of course there's no way for the PIR manufacturer to know the
characteristics of the particular CFL. It would be much better if
they'd said so, trouble is that once you start writing "maybe" on the
spec sheet people stop buying the product.

Calvin wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:

Calvin wrote:
SNIP

Just to expand on Ron's and other's comments and try to make it
clearer there are two sorts of PIRs you'll find in the shops.
Expensive (properly designed in my opinion) ones require a live and
a neutral and provide a switched live output. These will work with
any sort of bulb.

Calvin.

That all makes sense, but how can you tell the properly designed
ones from the crap ones? I mean without opening the box & taking
the thing apart? Is it just price or are there any indications one
might see in the spec? Or any specific makes?

I'm not sure you can tell good quality from bad from the outside.
Price is a negative indicator in that if it's cheap then for sure
someones cut a cormer somewhere. The trouble is that something being
expensive doesn't guarantee quality.


Indeed. That's the problem. I used to buy PIR lights from TLC & fit them
for customers, thus earning a mark up on the product.

I've since found them so unreliable & problemaatic that I now tell the
customer to buy them & I'll fit them. That way I don't get the warranty
hassle.

If I could find a source of good quality PIR lights I'd revert back to the
old system, but how can you tell?


--
Dave - The Medway Handyman
www.medwayhandyman.co.uk

We were somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember Owain
saying something like:

Not to mention the wondrous series-parallel combinations of a couple
of binobs and a Marvel switch.
I thought you wern't going to mention that?

Youth of today don't have any idea of the fun that can be had with a binob.

Whatever floats your boat.

Owain wrote:
The Medway Handyman wrote:
Not to mention the wondrous series-parallel combinations of a couple
of binobs and a Marvel switch.
I thought you wern't going to mention that?

Youth of today don't have any idea of the fun that can be had with a
bonobo.

Dirty *******.

Si