Hi All,
Anyone know where I can find the definition of a "competent person"
regarding the new electrical regulations coming into force next year?

TIA

"ferret" wrote in message
...
Hi All,
Anyone know where I can find the definition of a "competent person"
regarding the new electrical regulations coming into force next year?

TIA

have a look here

http://www.iee.org/Publish/WireRegs/PartP.pdf

On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 18:56:58 +0100, "ferret"
wrote:

Anyone know where I can find the definition of a "competent person"
regarding the new electrical regulations coming into force next year?

Basic rule seems to be anyone who has subscribed to the NICEIC. I
don't use the term "member" of the NICEIC because they don't have
members, apparently. You just hand over your dosh each year and you
become able to issue certificates.

I think.

PoP

"ferret" wrote in message
...
Hi All,
Anyone know where I can find the definition of a "competent person"
regarding the new electrical regulations coming into force next year?

TIA



This might be of help:

http://tinyurl.com/qe78

or (but watch out for page wrap)

http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/grou...eg_609519.hcsp

You just hand over your dosh each year and you become able to
issue certificates.

No, to become a member of the NICEIC, you need to have been in business for
a year. To be in business you need to already be a member of the NICEIC. By
instituting this chicken and egg situation, the government has effectively
banned setting up an electrical business.

Christian.

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 10:25:20 +0100, "Christian McArdle"
wrote:

No, to become a member of the NICEIC, you need to have been in business for
a year. To be in business you need to already be a member of the NICEIC. By
instituting this chicken and egg situation, the government has effectively
banned setting up an electrical business.

Exactly. And what this government are too stupid to recognise is that
there are another few votes which won't go in their direction in the
future. And probably never will again, given that if you give people a
hard time during your governments term then they most likely will
suffer from having a long memory.

PoP

Exactly. And what this government are too stupid to recognise is that
there are another few votes which won't go in their direction in the
future.

It's fine if you are already a member of NICEIC. The banning of well over
50% of people already doing this work will not impact deleteriously on their
pricing strucures...

Christian.

Competent person is a purposefully loose description, to allow a number of
criteria to fit.

It the fundamental level, it is "someone able to do the job".
You then expand this by qualifying why they can do the job. This may be
demonstated by years of experience, or a certain qualification.

A definition is just one possibility, and bear in mind that there will be
other ways to meet competancy. The IEE may state one method and promote a
certain training course - obviously for a fee. However, reading the new regs
thouroughly at home (and understanding them!) is just as good a method to
be competant.

dg


"ferret" wrote in message
...
Hi All,
Anyone know where I can find the definition of a "competent person"
regarding the new electrical regulations coming into force next year?

TIA

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 16:42:12 +0100, dg wrote:

Competent person is a purposefully loose description, to allow a number of
criteria to fit.

It the fundamental level, it is "someone able to do the job".
You then expand this by qualifying why they can do the job. This may be
demonstated by years of experience, or a certain qualification.

A definition is just one possibility, and bear in mind that there will be
other ways to meet competancy. The IEE may state one method and promote a
certain training course - obviously for a fee. However, reading the new regs
thouroughly at home (and understanding them!) is just as good a method to
be competant.

Err, not *quite* all. An understanding of basic electrical theory is
essential when considering competency. Merely reading and understanding
the regs will not provide that understanding. How would a competent
person by your definition know how to avoid danger from electric shock
when working on an electrical installation? How would they know the
*relevance* of correct polarity? How would they know the *relevance* of
earth loop impedance?

I do not subscribe to the idea that all such work should be carried out
by 'qualified' - whatever that means - electricians or gas fitters,
where gas is concerned, but I do think that anyone who is prepared to
take on such work must be aware of the dangers and how to avoid them.

One only has to read through some of the oh so basic questions that get
asked in this NG at times to know that there is a need for some form of
control over the enthusiastic but unknowing amateur. When I see
something like 'Can anyone recommend a good book to help me instal a new
twin plug', then it's fairly obvious to me that person should not be
doing that work.

Competent person is a purposefully loose description, to allow a number
of criteria to fit.

My understanding is that the competent person will have to be a member of a
registered competent persons scheme from April 2004. The only such scheme is
NICEIC, which is done on a company wide basis and requires the company to
have operated for at least 1 year. Obviously, as they will need to be
registered to operate, new companies are effectively banned.

Christian.

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 17:33:17 +0100, Wanderer
wrote:

One only has to read through some of the oh so basic questions that get
asked in this NG at times to know that there is a need for some form of
control over the enthusiastic but unknowing amateur. When I see
something like 'Can anyone recommend a good book to help me instal a new
twin plug', then it's fairly obvious to me that person should not be
doing that work.

I think a fair starting point for taking on this sort of work would
have to include having gained the necessary certifications via C&G2381
and C&G2391. What surprised me earlier this year when I got my C&G2381
was that the course was full of sparkies who had been practising for
some time (i.e. they weren't apprentices). As the only non-sparky on
the course I was a bit surprised by that - I'd have thought their
apprenticeship would have equipped them with that certification but I
was obviously wrong. I think a couple of them had 15th edition or
something, can't remember now.

I'm doing C&G2391 in the new year when there's next a place available
at the local college. Then equipped with that certification I can,
err, not write certificates because I'm not a subscriber to the NICEIC
quango.

PoP

In message , Wanderer
writes
One only has to read through some of the oh so basic questions that get
asked in this NG at times to know that there is a need for some form of
control over the enthusiastic but unknowing amateur. When I see
something like 'Can anyone recommend a good book to help me instal a new
twin plug', then it's fairly obvious to me that person should not be
doing that work.

Actually I'd consider that a little unfair - if someone is asking the
question then they are aware they have limitations and hence are asking
for more informed advice. If they are asking for a book reference, then
they are showing they are taking things seriously and looking for the
correct way to do things.

If, however, they are saying "I fitted a new twin plug yesterday and my
house caught fire when I switched the power on, why?", then I'd agree
with you!

T.

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
When I see something like 'Can anyone recommend a good book to help me
instal a new twin plug', then it's fairly obvious to me that person
should not be doing that work.

Hmm. A nurse may give an injection without really understanding the
mechanism whereby the drug works. The important thing is to know how to
give the injection safely, and to check the dose against instructions.

Much of the more simple electrical tasks round the house fall into this
camp - follow the rules and you'll be ok. Of course, if you're working on
an already faulty installation, good workmanship by you won't cure it.

--
*How about "never"? Is "never" good for you?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Christian McArdle" wrote in message
t...
Competent person is a purposefully loose description, to allow a number
of criteria to fit.

My understanding is that the competent person will have to be a member of
a
registered competent persons scheme from April 2004. The only such scheme
is
NICEIC, which is done on a company wide basis and requires the company to
have operated for at least 1 year. Obviously, as they will need to be
registered to operate, new companies are effectively banned.

Christian.

From the posters I've seen in our wholesalers NIKKY seem to be offering
special "deals" at the moment to bring the lost sheep into the fold! Can't
see it hurting my back pocket though - our company's been on the bandwagon
for years and, as has been said, their membership covers all us hairy a*ses
so come the glorious day we'll all be able to put our snouts in the trough
with the plumbers -Woohoo! Even got my own pad of certificates ;-)
The way these clowns in power (no pun intended) want to nanny everyone is
starting to wear a bit thin - if the number of fatalities per year is the
reason for banning diy electric work then surely they should be banning
cigarettes, cars, alcohol and breasts as they all account for many, many
more deaths than bodged sockets?
Rant mode put on the back burner, Richard

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 19:39:37 +0100, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
When I see something like 'Can anyone recommend a good book to help me
instal a new twin plug', then it's fairly obvious to me that person
should not be doing that work.

Hmm. A nurse may give an injection without really understanding the
mechanism whereby the drug works. The important thing is to know how to
give the injection safely, and to check the dose against instructions.

Not altogether a good comparison. An electrician may not understand the
physics of electricity, but he will - should - have enough knowledge to
do the job safely, and even more important, to understand the
implications of doing things wrongly.

Much of the more simple electrical tasks round the house fall into this
camp - follow the rules and you'll be ok. Of course, if you're working on
an already faulty installation, good workmanship by you won't cure it.

You need to differentiate between simple tasks that the householder can
do - those are 'follow the rules' - and alterations to the electrical
installation that the competent DIYer can tackle.

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 18:54:07 +0100, Tony Wood wrote:

In message , Wanderer
writes
One only has to read through some of the oh so basic questions that get
asked in this NG at times to know that there is a need for some form of
control over the enthusiastic but unknowing amateur. When I see
something like 'Can anyone recommend a good book to help me instal a new
twin plug', then it's fairly obvious to me that person should not be
doing that work.

Actually I'd consider that a little unfair - if someone is asking the
question then they are aware they have limitations and hence are asking
for more informed advice. If they are asking for a book reference, then
they are showing they are taking things seriously and looking for the
correct way to do things.

But the danger of following an idiot's guide is that they may not
realise that regardless of said idiot's guide if they actually get the
cables in the wrong terminals it could have lethal consequences.

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
But the danger of following an idiot's guide is that they may not
realise that regardless of said idiot's guide if they actually get the
cables in the wrong terminals it could have lethal consequences.

Are you really sure there are many who don't realise that some wires are
live while others aren't? Most people with no technical knowledge know
what an earth is.

--
*'Progress' and 'Change' are not synonyms.

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
Hmm. A nurse may give an injection without really understanding the
mechanism whereby the drug works. The important thing is to know how to
give the injection safely, and to check the dose against instructions.

Not altogether a good comparison. An electrician may not understand the
physics of electricity, but he will - should - have enough knowledge to
do the job safely, and even more important, to understand the
implications of doing things wrongly.

I'd hope a nurse doing an injection would too.

--
*The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered.*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Frisket" wrote
| From the posters I've seen in our wholesalers NIKKY seem to be offering
| special "deals" at the moment to bring the lost sheep into the fold! Can't
| see it hurting my back pocket though - our company's been on the bandwagon
| for years and, as has been said, their membership covers all us hairy
a*ses
| so come the glorious day we'll all be able to put our snouts in the trough
| with the plumbers -Woohoo! Even got my own pad of certificates ;-)

However (if I understand you correctly) this is your *employer* who's in the
scheme. When the legislation comes into force you won't be able to leave and
start up self-employed. The legislation restricts not just the consumer, but
also the workman who in future will only be able to work for a more
restricted number of employers. A restricted number of larger employers who
may be more ruthless when it comes to hire-and-fire.

This will hardly be an encouragement to people to obtain C&Gs, so there will
be an increasing shortage of qualified electricians and, as the legislation
does not require qualified operatives (unlike gas where individual
qualification *plus* Corgi recognition is needed), probably greater use of
unqualified temporary staff on jobs. I don't see this as leading to better
workmanship or safety.

In fact, if one or two companies start taking over smaller firms
aggressively it could lead to something similar to the alarm industry where
almost everything is now owned by ADT.

| The way these clowns in power (no pun intended) want to nanny everyone is
| starting to wear a bit thin - if the number of fatalities per year is the
| reason for banning diy electric work then surely they should be banning
| cigarettes, cars, alcohol and breasts

? I don't wanna ask but ...

Owain

Paul Mc Cann wrote:

Or maybe he was German? (Prior to the grn/ylw harmonisation Germany used
red as the earth colour.)


No not German, just incompetent.

Paul Mc Cann

The germans have nothing on the italians and russians.....both are
lethal when it comes to wiring plugs, as I discovered PAT testing at
work, its a uni and the worst offeneders are either studying for phds,
have phds or have prof status! Though the way the labs are wired at home
probably doesn't help.

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:41:15 +0100, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
But the danger of following an idiot's guide is that they may not
realise that regardless of said idiot's guide if they actually get the
cables in the wrong terminals it could have lethal consequences.

Are you really sure there are many who don't realise that some wires are
live while others aren't? Most people with no technical knowledge know
what an earth is.

I've had to attend a couple of inquests as expert witness, so yes, and
judging on some of the questions I've seen asked in this NG over the
three or four years I've been following it, again, yes! There may not be
many, but just one accident because someone doesn't understand what
they're doing is too many.

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:42:22 +0100, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
Hmm. A nurse may give an injection without really understanding the
mechanism whereby the drug works. The important thing is to know how to
give the injection safely, and to check the dose against instructions.

Not altogether a good comparison. An electrician may not understand the
physics of electricity, but he will - should - have enough knowledge to
do the job safely, and even more important, to understand the
implications of doing things wrongly.

I'd hope a nurse doing an injection would too.

I rather think you've made my point very succinctly.

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
I've had to attend a couple of inquests as expert witness, so yes, and
judging on some of the questions I've seen asked in this NG over the
three or four years I've been following it, again, yes! There may not be
many, but just one accident because someone doesn't understand what
they're doing is too many.

If this is a general view, it gives carte blanche for the government to
introduce legislation as indeed they have done. Whether it will be
effective or not - "something has to be done".

Wonder when they'll do something similar about road deaths? Everyone
driving is qualified to do so - in theory at least - but it doesn't stop
accidents.

FWIW, some of the most serious bodges in electrics I've seen in my
limited experience were carried out by pros that will presumably be the
very ones who are allowed legally to work on electricity under the new
legislation.

--
*You can't have everything, where would you put it?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:12:17 +0100, Wanderer
wrote:

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:41:15 +0100, Dave Plowman wrote:

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
But the danger of following an idiot's guide is that they may not
realise that regardless of said idiot's guide if they actually get the
cables in the wrong terminals it could have lethal consequences.

Are you really sure there are many who don't realise that some wires are
live while others aren't? Most people with no technical knowledge know
what an earth is.

I've had to attend a couple of inquests as expert witness, so yes, and
judging on some of the questions I've seen asked in this NG over the
three or four years I've been following it, again, yes! There may not be
many, but just one accident because someone doesn't understand what
they're doing is too many.

This is all very well but there are several points....

- The vast majority of electrically related accidents relate to
portable appliances and not fixed wiring.

- The new legislation permits so called minor works which anybody is
supposed to be allowed to do. If they get it wrong the effect is
going to be just as lethal as if they had attempted a more major
project and got that wrong. So why was the legislation drafted in
this way? Simple. This fudges the issue because the only way would
have been to organise the legislation along the same lines as that for
gas and introduce criminal penalties and a watchdog. This would have
gained a much higher visibility and accusations of draconian
government interference. It is anyway of course, but this has been
lubricated and spun using information from the IEE, RoSPA and others
selectively - i.e. select the evidence to support the foregone
conclusion.

- Somebody doing electrical work as DIY who does not know what they
are doing to the point of creating danger is probably not very likely
either to take any notice of or even know about the new legislation.
Likewise for cowboy professionals.

Saying that one accident is one too many is bogus in the real world.
People have to take responsibility for themselves. It's reasonable
to do things and have legislation which is going to make a
statistically significant difference, but this is not and the case is
far from proven. It is not justifiable to introduce legislation
affecting everybody in an attempt to prevent the demise of one or
individuals who would probably have ignored it anyway.
This demonstrates that the real reasons are not as presented at all.
But then we knew that.




..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:15:11 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
I've had to attend a couple of inquests as expert witness, so yes, and
judging on some of the questions I've seen asked in this NG over the
three or four years I've been following it, again, yes! There may not be
many, but just one accident because someone doesn't understand what
they're doing is too many.

If this is a general view, it gives carte blanche for the government to
introduce legislation as indeed they have done. Whether it will be
effective or not - "something has to be done".

Wonder when they'll do something similar about road deaths? Everyone
driving is qualified to do so - in theory at least - but it doesn't stop
accidents.

FWIW, some of the most serious bodges in electrics I've seen in my
limited experience were carried out by pros that will presumably be the
very ones who are allowed legally to work on electricity under the new
legislation.

Precisely. Not long ago when flooring my loft, I found at several
light fittings where several cables arrive to create the daisy chain
and switching, that the earths had simply been twisted together behind
the fitting. No sleeving, no terminals. Bodge.

Presumably the electrician gets a special deal on his spurs from the
electrical wholesaler.

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , Dave Plowman
writes
ost serious bodges in electrics I've seen in my
limited experience were carried out by pros that will presumably be the
very ones who are allowed legally to work on electricity under the new
legislation.

The corgi registered plumber who installed my central heating used the
earth in length of 1.5mm T&E as a switched live rather than using 3
core cable. I also saw this on another install he had done.
Damn good plumber, I couldn't fault that at all but his electric's were
decidedly questionable.

--
-- Bill

In article ,
- wrote:
The corgi registered plumber who installed my central heating used the
earth in length of 1.5mm T&E as a switched live rather than using 3
core cable. I also saw this on another install he had done.
Damn good plumber, I couldn't fault that at all but his electric's were
decidedly questionable.

I've seen this done by a pro sparks rather than plumber who you'd expect
it of. ;-)

--
*Eat well, stay fit, die anyway

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

In uk.d-i-y, Wanderer wrote:

I've had to attend a couple of inquests as expert witness, so yes, and
judging on some of the questions I've seen asked in this NG over the
three or four years I've been following it, again, yes! There may not be
many, but just one accident because someone doesn't understand what
they're doing is too many.

Oh piffle! "If it saves just one child"... What next: legislation against
gravity to stop people hurting themselves if they skip and fall, or fall
over a cliff? To tear up the road network because people die on it?
Accidents *happen*. Good sense, widespread information, enlightened
self-interest, product design standards all work to reduce risk. But
pretending that all risk can be *eliminated* risk, and looking for
someone with deep pockets to sue when a (genuine) accident happens, takes
us into a world where only lawyers are rich & happy (well, rich anyway ;-)

The UK already has a very *low* rate of deaths and accidents through
faulty electrical installations - and as Andy H has been tirelessly
pointing out, based on the IEE's and RoSPA's own figures, the bulk of
electricity-related injuries and deaths which do occur are casued by
faulty or misused *appliances*, not *fixed wiring*. Most of the
electrickery questions posed on this group are eminently reasonable,
and typically answered quickly and with a bias towards safety (and
"get in a sparky" if it seems the enquirer is significantly
deficient in the clue department). It must be hard to gain a balanced
perspective of overall practice if you're called to too many inquests,
I suppose, but it'd be worth making the intellectual effort to at least
try so to do...

Stefek

"Owain" wrote in message
...
| so come the glorious day we'll all be able to put our snouts in the
trough
| with the plumbers -Woohoo! Even got my own pad of certificates ;-)

However (if I understand you correctly) this is your *employer* who's in
the
scheme. When the legislation comes into force you won't be able to leave
and
start up self-employed. The legislation restricts not just the consumer,
but
also the workman who in future will only be able to work for a more
restricted number of employers. A restricted number of larger employers
who
may be more ruthless when it comes to hire-and-fire.

It's more a case of the "cream" back hand jobs that'll come our way - if I
do a major wiring job and provide a certificate then when the house owner
comes to sell in say 5 years he'll have the necessary piece of paper and no
one will question it's authenticity. He gets to sell his house, I've filled
my pockets with untaxed income, the buyer may or may not have a safe house,
the NIKKY man will have had his free lunches and 2 Jags will still be
looking smug.

This will hardly be an encouragement to people to obtain C&Gs, so there
will
be an increasing shortage of qualified electricians and, as the
legislation
does not require qualified operatives (unlike gas where individual
qualification *plus* Corgi recognition is needed), probably greater use of
unqualified temporary staff on jobs. I don't see this as leading to better
workmanship or safety.

In fact, if one or two companies start taking over smaller firms
aggressively it could lead to something similar to the alarm industry
where
almost everything is now owned by ADT.

I'm afraid I agree with you completely about the workmanship / safety issues
but at least if there's only one really big firm we'll all get smart new
company cars - it seems every third one on the road in Yorkshire is in ADT's
livery ;-)

| The way these clowns in power (no pun intended) want to nanny everyone
is
| starting to wear a bit thin - if the number of fatalities per year is
the
| reason for banning diy electric work then surely they should be banning
| cigarettes, cars, alcohol and breasts

? I don't wanna ask but ...

Owain

Sorry Owain, the upcoming regulations have wound me up more than a little
and the rant was fuelled by several cans of Boddingtons canned draught. I'd
just finished reading that something like 30000 women would die of breast
cancer in the uk next year and with their muddled thinking surely banning
breasts would be a logical step?
Richard

In uk.d-i-y, wrote:

................................................. skip and fall....

Oops: meant to have been "slip and fall", rather than the extreme-nannying
"skip and fall" typo. (Look, k and l are right next to each other on
this qwerty keyboard. Ah, that tells me who to sue for causing me this
immense emotional distress. No point trying Underwoods or the other
typewriter mfrs, too little money. But *logitech*, makers of this
here keyboard: oh yes, they'll do nicely. Must go find a conditional-fee
merchant...)

Stefek

On 11 Oct 2003 13:05:10 GMT, wrote:

In uk.d-i-y, Wanderer wrote:

I've had to attend a couple of inquests as expert witness, so yes, and
judging on some of the questions I've seen asked in this NG over the
three or four years I've been following it, again, yes! There may not be
many, but just one accident because someone doesn't understand what
they're doing is too many.

Oh piffle! "If it saves just one child"... What next: legislation against
gravity to stop people hurting themselves if they skip and fall, or fall
over a cliff? To tear up the road network because people die on it?
Accidents *happen*. Good sense, widespread information, enlightened
self-interest, product design standards all work to reduce risk. But
pretending that all risk can be *eliminated* risk, and looking for
someone with deep pockets to sue when a (genuine) accident happens, takes
us into a world where only lawyers are rich & happy (well, rich anyway ;-)

The UK already has a very *low* rate of deaths and accidents through
faulty electrical installations - and as Andy H has been tirelessly
pointing out, based on the IEE's and RoSPA's own figures, the bulk of
electricity-related injuries and deaths which do occur are casued by
faulty or misused *appliances*, not *fixed wiring*. Most of the
electrickery questions posed on this group are eminently reasonable,
and typically answered quickly and with a bias towards safety (and
"get in a sparky" if it seems the enquirer is significantly
deficient in the clue department). It must be hard to gain a balanced
perspective of overall practice if you're called to too many inquests,
I suppose, but it'd be worth making the intellectual effort to at least
try so to do...

Did you bother to read this thread? I suggest you read my message i.d.
, where I set out my views
about the subject in more detail.

I am concerned that a complete novice attampting to follow an idiot's
guide to wiring alterations 'parrot fashion' will not have any
understanding or concept of the dangers inherrent in not carrying out
the works in a safe Manner. It is fashionable these days to say 'So
what? If the idiot kills himself or his family, tough luck.' I happen to
think that such incidents can and should be avoided.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, I assume we can expect
to see you promoting do-it-yourself brain surgery! After all, if we
can't eliminate *all* risks, if we're prepared to adopt good sense, if
we're prepared to seek out all available information, if we're all
prepared to practice enlightened self-interest by performing surgery on
somebody else, if we're all prepared to use only the prescribed tools
and equipment for the job.......

In uk.d-i-y, Wanderer wrote:

Did you bother to read this thread? I suggest you read my message i.d.
, where I set out my views
about the subject in more detail.

Fie, sir, fie and piffle, and piffle I say again. I've read this thread,
and one or two others too...

I am concerned that a complete novice attampting to follow an idiot's
guide to wiring alterations 'parrot fashion' will not have any
understanding or concept of the dangers inherrent in not carrying out
the works in a safe Manner. It is fashionable these days to say 'So
what? If the idiot kills himself or his family, tough luck.' I happen to
think that such incidents can and should be avoided.

It's extremely *un*fashionable to assert personal responsibility in this
way; it's far *more* fashionable to attempt to regulate beyond reason,
and thereby produce perverse incentives. In the particular case we're
discussing here - and have been discussing on and off for some months,
including group participants making detailed representations both at the
time the addition to Building Regs was being consulted on, and subsequently
to MPs, as you'd know if you'd been participating for longer than a
couple of weeks - those perverse incentives seem to be present in spades.
For one, it's companies, not individuals, who have the NICEIC blessing:
thuz, mumpties who learn a job by rote and mishearing get covered, while
competent people outside the club don't get a look in. For two, the
"minor works" exemption provides an incentive for the marginally
informed - e.g. those who pick up a cautiously-worded leaflet at a
d-i-y shed - to overextend existing circuits, 'cuz that's a Minor Work,
where it would have been better on grounds of circuit loading and fault
discrimination to put in a new final circuit. For three, it creates an
incentive for the small jobbing electrician to quote two rates for
a couple of socket-moves-for-the-old-lady-who-now-finds-it-hard-to-reach-down:
"40 quid cash, love, or 130 through the books; it's the Certificate, see",
which corrodes respect for the regulatory regime among both practitioners
and public. In the current state of affairs, as multiple years of postings
to uk.d-i-y bear out, there *is* respect for the Wiring Regs themselves:
many, possibly even most, "new" enquirers start out along the lines of
"I'm thinking of doing X, what do the Regs say?", or are at least happy
to take direction from the text of the OSG (it's typically queries at
the more practical level addressed by the OSG which arise, rather than
the general principles level of the Regs themselves).

Indeed, the existence of the OSG - and the many books of Regs commentary
/ application - undermine your general point about "attempting to
follow an idiot's guide ... 'parrot fashion'". The OSG, C&G courses, how-to
leaflets, electrical-practice sections of d-i-y books, and the like,
are all conservative renderings of the Regs, which themselves are more
"good engineering" than "basic science". Would you call the OSG's Table
7.1 an "idiot's guide"? (This is the one which gives maximum lengths
of 'conventional final circuits' - rings-n-radials - for different
combinations of cable composition and protective device.) Since it can
be *used* without doing the calculations of earth impedance - or even
understanding its significance, as you call for - do you condemn all
practicing sparkies who either use the table, or even more "sloppily"
carry around in their heads "2.5mmsq for domestic power", while quietly
knowing that (a) under boundary conditions 1.5mmsq or 4mmsq might be
get-away-with-able or necessary, respectively, and (b) not being too
sure *exactly* where those boundaries lie, but knowing roughly where
the point comes that more detailed circuit design needs doing? If so,
you're suggesting a degree of engineering micro-application which is
utterly impractical in an applied-trade occupation, whether undertaken
by a "competent tradesperson" or a d-i-y'er.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, I assume we can expect
to see you promoting do-it-yourself brain surgery! After all, if we
can't eliminate *all* risks, if we're prepared to adopt good sense, if
we're prepared to seek out all available information, if we're all
prepared to practice enlightened self-interest by performing surgery on
somebody else, if we're all prepared to use only the prescribed tools
and equipment for the job.......

Oh dear, the "logical conclusion" fallacy. As with most instances of it,
the alleged conclusion doesn't follow from the premises at all. Any mumpty
daft enough to try to engage in d-i-y brain surgery, be it on themselves
or on someone else, clearly hasn't "sought out all available information",
adopted good sense, or listened to any suppliers of tools and equipment
for the job. Do you seriously expect us to consider domestic electrical
wiring as requiring the same level of training and background scientific
knowledge as brain surgery?

Stefek

In message , Dave Plowman
writes
In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
But the danger of following an idiot's guide is that they may not
realise that regardless of said idiot's guide if they actually get the
cables in the wrong terminals it could have lethal consequences.

Are you really sure there are many who don't realise that some wires are
live while others aren't? Most people with no technical knowledge know
what an earth is.

Isn't it what they end up on when they touch a live wire?
--
geoff

"Frisket" wrote
| "Owain"
| | banning ... breasts
| ? I don't wanna ask but ...
| Sorry Owain, the upcoming regulations have wound me up more than a
| little and the rant was fuelled by several cans of Boddingtons canned
| draught. I'd just finished reading that something like 30000 women
| would die of breast cancer in the uk next year and with their muddled
| thinking surely banning breasts would be a logical step?

I thought you were going to come up with some RoSPA statistics for
injuries/fatalities suffered by the wolf-whistling classes being distracted
by a passing ample décolletage and falling off ladders as a result.

Owain

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 16:22:20 +0000, Steve
wrote:

wrote:

Oh piffle! "If it saves just one child"...

Hear Hear. Another voice of sanity in here. Now how do we teach the
lawmakers and pressure groups ?

Steve

Via the ballot box......

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

On 11 Oct 2003 15:25:19 GMT, wrote:

In uk.d-i-y, Wanderer wrote:

Did you bother to read this thread? I suggest you read my message i.d.
, where I set out my views
about the subject in more detail.

Fie, sir, fie and piffle, and piffle I say again. I've read this thread,
and one or two others too...

I am concerned that a complete novice attampting to follow an idiot's
guide to wiring alterations 'parrot fashion' will not have any
understanding or concept of the dangers inherrent in not carrying out
the works in a safe Manner. It is fashionable these days to say 'So
what? If the idiot kills himself or his family, tough luck.' I happen to
think that such incidents can and should be avoided.

snipped rationale

I don't disagree with most of what you say. Do not make the mistake,
however, that I have not been following the discussions over recent
months just because I don't subscribe to the AOL me too mentality.

Indeed, the existence of the OSG - and the many books of Regs commentary
/ application - undermine your general point about "attempting to
follow an idiot's guide ... 'parrot fashion'". The OSG, C&G courses, how-to
leaflets, electrical-practice sections of d-i-y books, and the like,
are all conservative renderings of the Regs, which themselves are more
"good engineering" than "basic science". Would you call the OSG's Table
7.1 an "idiot's guide"? (This is the one which gives maximum lengths
of 'conventional final circuits' - rings-n-radials - for different
combinations of cable composition and protective device.) Since it can
be *used* without doing the calculations of earth impedance - or even
understanding its significance, as you call for - do you condemn all
practicing sparkies who either use the table, or even more "sloppily"
carry around in their heads "2.5mmsq for domestic power", while quietly
knowing that (a) under boundary conditions 1.5mmsq or 4mmsq might be
get-away-with-able or necessary, respectively, and (b) not being too
sure *exactly* where those boundaries lie, but knowing roughly where
the point comes that more detailed circuit design needs doing? If so,
you're suggesting a degree of engineering micro-application which is
utterly impractical in an applied-trade occupation, whether undertaken
by a "competent tradesperson" or a d-i-y'er.

But the complete novice, out to try and save himself a few quid, won't
bother with any of this, will he? He'll be trying to do it coz there's
an ethos that suggests that Mr or Mrs Average really *can* tackle more
or less any job with the appropriate guides. This tends to be borne out
by some of the posts I see in this NG. I am unable to recall any to mind
at this moment, but I do read posts that prompt me to think 'If you're
asking that sort of question, you shouldn't be contemplating doing that
job'.

I would much prefer to see a different ethos prevail, where the DIY
fraternity generally accept that it's necessary to have certain levels
of skill and understanding before tackling any particular level of DIY
work. I'm not for one minute saying the competent DIYer should be
legislated against, and I am only too well aware that defining
competency is one hell of a problem.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, I assume we can expect
to see you promoting do-it-yourself brain surgery! After all, if we
can't eliminate *all* risks, if we're prepared to adopt good sense, if
we're prepared to seek out all available information, if we're all
prepared to practice enlightened self-interest by performing surgery on
somebody else, if we're all prepared to use only the prescribed tools
and equipment for the job.......

Oh dear, the "logical conclusion" fallacy.

No fallacy in how I presented it. After all, anyone who didn't see it
for the facetious response it was in reply to the thinking you were
espousing in your previous post is a fool. The fallacy, if any there is,
exists in the particular line of thinking you were pursuing.

wrote:

Oh piffle! "If it saves just one child"...

Hear Hear. Another voice of sanity in here. Now how do we teach the
lawmakers and pressure groups ?

Steve

Frisket wrote:

just finished reading that something like 30000 women would die of breast
cancer in the uk next year and with their muddled thinking surely banning
breasts would be a logical step?

No, here it is clear we need a dedicated independent team of inspectors.

Steve

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:44:18 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

FWIW, some of the most serious bodges in electrics I've seen in my
limited experience were carried out by pros that will presumably be the
very ones who are allowed legally to work on electricity under the new
legislation.

Precisely. Not long ago when flooring my loft, I found at several
light fittings where several cables arrive to create the daisy chain
and switching, that the earths had simply been twisted together behind
the fitting. No sleeving, no terminals. Bodge.

Several weeks ago I put a PC into my daughters bedroom. As I was
sorting out the cabling she remarked "oh yes, that 13A socket doesn't
work". She had never told me previously, but what the heck.

I set to with the screwdriver, to discover that whoever wired up our
house 8 years ago had done a serious bodge job, leaving this socket
either badly or not earthed. And these are definitely people who will
be allowed to continue working on electrical installations.

Coming back on-topic, I think the general tradesman who needs to do
the occasional electrical work might tend to cut less corners than a
sparky who is doing this day-in, day-out. Familiarity breeds apathy.
And don't we see that in our politicians?

PoP

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:11:50 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Via the ballot box......

I fear that is the only way.

Those who have been taking an active interest in this subject will be
aware that I have been writing to my MP about these new regs. Herewith
the final part of the saga.....

Last week I spent several hours researching the accident statistics
relating to electricity, as published on the RoSPA web site. I then
wrote a detailed and reasoned response to my MP, with questions about
where Nick Raynsford (the minister in charge) was getting his figures
from - Raynsford seemed to be justifying the new legislation in terms
of the number of lives saved, and I pointed out that it was curious
that the government were bringing in legislation to save more lives
than were being lost each year. I wanted to obtain copies of what
Raynsford was basing his decisions on.

I just got the reply back from my MP yesterday morning. It states "we
are not going to change the ministers mind on this subject so I am not
going to pursue it any further".

My MP, Andrew MacKay of the Bracknell constituency, has seen his
majority fall from over 10,000 to 5,000 at the last election. And with
the reply he's just given me about these new regs there's a good
chance it will plummet to at least 4,999 in the next election. I feel
he's just washed his hands of the affair, and I'm definitely up for
changing my MP to someone who cares a tad more about his constituents.

PoP