On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 08:12:17 +0100, Wanderer
wrote:

There may not be many, but just one accident because
someone doesn't understand what they're doing is too many.

That has the appearance of perhaps flying in the face of evolution and
natural selection. Are we expert enough to be sure that's the right
way to go? Just asking because I don't know enough to say for sure and
I'm interested to know how come anyone else could be. Could evolution
be "cooked" as a result?

Take Care,
Gnube
{too thick for linux}

In uk.d-i-y, Wanderer wrote:

I don't disagree with most of what you say.

Super...

........................................... Do not make the mistake,
however, that I have not been following the discussions over recent
months just because I don't subscribe to the AOL me too mentality.

Splendid - glad to know you've been with us in lurk mode, at least! And
I've been out of the group for a few months, so hadn't noticed most of
your clueful postings over that time.

But the complete novice, out to try and save himself a few quid, won't
bother with any of this, will he? He'll be trying to do it coz there's
an ethos that suggests that Mr or Mrs Average really *can* tackle more
or less any job with the appropriate guides. This tends to be borne out
by some of the posts I see in this NG. I am unable to recall any to mind
at this moment, but I do read posts that prompt me to think 'If you're
asking that sort of question, you shouldn't be contemplating doing that
job'.

I've seen a few such posts, too: and generally find that they get an
explicit and rapid response precisely along the lines of "if you need
to ask, don't start". And at least they're *asking* :-) The ones to
worry about are those who leap in, drill and driver at the ready, and
pull a feed to a 13A socket (double for convenience) off any passing
lighting circuit. However, as the IEE/RoSPA stats show, that really is
a *tiny* minority. Mr & Mrs Average seem - in the universe I live in -
to have a healthy respect for the dangers of electromotive force.

I would much prefer to see a different ethos prevail, where the DIY
fraternity generally accept that it's necessary to have certain levels
of skill and understanding before tackling any particular level of DIY
work. I'm not for one minute saying the competent DIYer should be
legislated against, and I am only too well aware that defining
competency is one hell of a problem.

So, where's the evidence that the DIY fraternity are a danger to
themselves and others in their gung-ho attitude? For every d-i-y
cockup story, there's at least one industrial/commercial one: look
at the HSE notifiable-occurrences website for toe-curling examples
of trades doing daft things through (a) a lack of deeper understanding
of the engineering/science of what they're working on, or (b) time
pressure to get a job finished, or (c) failure by their mgmt/supervisor
to clue them in to this job having different risks from the ones they've
done before.

Taking your argument to its logical conclusion, I assume we can expect
to see you promoting do-it-yourself brain surgery!

Oh dear, the "logical conclusion" fallacy.

No fallacy in how I presented it. After all, anyone who didn't see it
for the facetious response it was in reply to the thinking you were
espousing in your previous post is a fool.

Here I do continue to disagree with you. To my mind there was a clear
logical fallacy in going from "d-i-y brain surgery would be daft" to
"d-i-y electrical installation would be daft"; especially as my argument
explicitly called out 'good sense', 'informing onesself', and the like,
as preconditions for "undaft to d-i-y given-activity". Since those
conditions as explicitly listed are significantly different in the cases of
brain surgery and home electrical alterations, it's a clear logical fallacy
to create a misapplication of the argument I was putting forward, and
to describe that misapplication as a "logical conclusion". Logic warn't
in it; (poor) rhetoric was; hence the use of the f word to describe it.

Anyway, it's heartening to have you acknowledge that the brain surgery
angle was no more than facetious: we can, then, agree that domestic
electrics does *not* require the same level of background expertise
and extensive tutelage as brain surgery, then? I'm also happy to agree
that unthinking meddling with house electrics is dangerous: as I and
others point out often in this NG, the existence of safety devices in
an installation (ELCB, MCB, service fuse even!) is no defence against
stupidity, and the older an installation is, the greater the potential
for Surprises (borrowed neutrals, rings taking their live supply from
separate fuses, cables in unprotected joist notches, perished rubber
insulation, unearthed lighting circuits... the list goes on!) and that
"simple" d-i-y guides can't spell out all these potential problems, but
are left with vague disclaimers along the lines of "if your electrical
system doesn't seem to look like this, don't try to follow these
instructions".

Where we disagree is in our response to that state of affairs: you seem
to be arguing that because of the existence of residual risk, including
the existence of reckless fools, regulation should step far into the
"leave it to the Professionals" end of the spectrum. And your evidence
so far to support that position has been limited to "some people ask
questions which belie woeful and potentially dangerous ignorance", and
"in extremis (at the inquests I've been expert witness at) things go
tragically wrong". I, based on "people seem to ask sensible questions",
and on "IEE/RoSPA stats show very few cases of idiocy", argue for a
position of "give sensible advice and warnings; the terminally clueless
will find some way of contributing to the Darwin awards anyway". And
I also adduce arguments concerning the adverse consequences of the
particular regulatory regime the NICEIC stitchup seems to be about to
give us.

Stefek

"PoP" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:11:50 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Via the ballot box......

I fear that is the only way.


My MP, Andrew MacKay of the Bracknell constituency, has seen his
majority fall from over 10,000 to 5,000 at the last election. And with
the reply he's just given me about these new regs there's a good
chance it will plummet to at least 4,999 in the next election. I feel
he's just washed his hands of the affair, and I'm definitely up for
changing my MP to someone who cares a tad more about his constituents.

PoP


Given that Andrew Mackay is a Conservative, and the legislation is being
introduced by Labour - who do we vote for if we feel strongly on this issue?

James


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Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also included
such gems as "crochet your own suspension bridge" and "breed your own
Nija Hamsters". That was about 15 years ago (at a guess). I've never
seen it since, and no no-one will believe the book existed. Has anyone
else seen it?

Hwyl!

M.

--
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Don't fight technology, live with it: http://www.livtech.co.uk/
.... Wishful thinking on your part doesn't constitute reality on mine.

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 22:00:46 +0100, Martin Angove
wrote:

Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also included
such gems as "crochet your own suspension bridge" and "breed your own
Nija Hamsters". That was about 15 years ago (at a guess). I've never
seen it since, and no no-one will believe the book existed. Has anyone
else seen it?

Hwyl!

M.

Yes it exists.

The author is Stewart Cowley.

If you type his name into the search field on www.amazon.co.uk there
are a few second hand copies around.....



..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article , PoP
wrote:
I just got the reply back from my MP yesterday morning. It
states "we are not going to change the ministers mind on this
subject so I am not going to pursue it any further".

Getting the government "off your back and on your side" didn't
last long did it?

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk
Free SEDBUK boiler database browser
http://www.sda.co.uk/qsedbuk.htm

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:00:46 UTC, Martin Angove
wrote:

Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also included
such gems as "crochet your own suspension bridge" and "breed your own
Nija Hamsters". That was about 15 years ago (at a guess). I've never
seen it since, and no no-one will believe the book existed. Has anyone
else seen it?

Yes. I think it was 'Combat Hamsters', actually. Not to mention 'Open
Cast Mining in your Garden'. Not sure if I still have the book.

By Stewart Cowley. Seems to be available from Amazon for 4 quid.

It's not OT...it's DIY!

--
Bob Eager
rde at tavi.co.uk
PC Server 325*4; PS/2s 9585, 8595, 9595*2, 8580*3,
P70...

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 21:13:39 +0100, "James"
wrote:

Given that Andrew Mackay is a Conservative, and the legislation is being
introduced by Labour - who do we vote for if we feel strongly on this issue?

I shall be reviewing who the 2nd most favoured candidate was in recent
general elections.

It doesn't help my current MP that the democracy boundaries have (or
are) been redrawn. Apparently our section of Bracknell is going to be
lumped in with Windsor. Same sort of thing taking place in Wokingham
where I was led to believe that parts of Wokingham (John Redwood) are
going to be lumped into Newbury.

PoP

On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:41:15 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
But the danger of following an idiot's guide is that they may not
realise that regardless of said idiot's guide if they actually get the
cables in the wrong terminals it could have lethal consequences.

Are you really sure there are many who don't realise that some wires are
live while others aren't? Most people with no technical knowledge know
what an earth is.

I have a brother-in-law, with an honours degree in physics, who once
wired the live wire to the earth terminal in a 3 pin plug.


Paul Mc Cann

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:15:11 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
I've had to attend a couple of inquests as expert witness, so yes, and
judging on some of the questions I've seen asked in this NG over the
three or four years I've been following it, again, yes! There may not be
many, but just one accident because someone doesn't understand what
they're doing is too many.

If this is a general view, it gives carte blanche for the government to
introduce legislation as indeed they have done. Whether it will be
effective or not - "something has to be done".

Wonder when they'll do something similar about road deaths? Everyone
driving is qualified to do so - in theory at least - but it doesn't stop
accidents.

snip

I have long felt that in years to come we will be amazed at the type
of person who was licensed to drive a motor vehicle at this time.

Paul Mc Cann

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:44:18 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:15:11 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

snip

Precisely. Not long ago when flooring my loft, I found at several
light fittings where several cables arrive to create the daisy chain
and switching, that the earths had simply been twisted together behind
the fitting. No sleeving, no terminals. Bodge.

snip

The gentleman who wired our house was a budding Robin Hood. In the
attic every wire is a bow string, incliding the one that stretched
taut across the corner of the framing around the access hatch.

Paul Mc Cann

James wrote:

"PoP" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 17:11:50 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:

Via the ballot box......

I fear that is the only way.


My MP, Andrew MacKay of the Bracknell constituency, has seen his
majority fall from over 10,000 to 5,000 at the last election. And with
the reply he's just given me about these new regs there's a good
chance it will plummet to at least 4,999 in the next election. I feel
he's just washed his hands of the affair, and I'm definitely up for
changing my MP to someone who cares a tad more about his constituents.

PoP


Given that Andrew Mackay is a Conservative, and the legislation is being
introduced by Labour - who do we vote for if we feel strongly on this issue?

I'm confidently expecting the non-voters to stay at home in force next
time.
This means the result that actually gets counted is more sensitive to
noise this makes for a less predictable result.

As for the original topic - I'll probably end up ignoring the law until
the general public have caught up with the game (around 5 years+). The
problem for me is that a lot of boilers are fitted in kitchens so
theoretically their supplies and controls are subject to the new laws.

I note that there is a 'lite' version of NICEIC that covers just CH
controls.

However I still need it for the other work I do. 8-(.

--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

In article ,
Paul Mc Cann wrote:
Are you really sure there are many who don't realise that some wires are
live while others aren't? Most people with no technical knowledge know
what an earth is.

I have a brother-in-law, with an honours degree in physics, who once
wired the live wire to the earth terminal in a 3 pin plug.

This is about the most common safety issue with electrics. And the new
laws will do *nothing* about it, as they don't cover portable appliance
wiring - ie plugs.

Did you ever find out just why he did this? Perhaps he's colour blind and
was using old flex where the red and green were easily confused.

--
*The closest I ever got to a 4.0 in school was my blood alcohol content*

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"James" wrote
| "PoP" wrote
| My MP, Andrew MacKay of the Bracknell constituency, has seen his
| majority fall from over 10,000 to 5,000 at the last election. And with
| the reply he's just given me about these new regs there's a good
| chance it will plummet to at least 4,999 in the next election. I feel
| he's just washed his hands of the affair, and I'm definitely up for
| changing my MP to someone who cares a tad more about his constituents.

It seems that the purpose of an MP has become to represent the Government in
the constituency rather than vice versa.

| Given that Andrew Mackay is a Conservative, and the legislation is being
| introduced by Labour - who do we vote for if we feel strongly on this
issue?

One can see why minority and extreme parties gain support where the
electoral system allows.

Owain

"Martin Angove" wrote
| Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
| local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also included
| such gems as "crochet your own suspension bridge" and "breed your own
| Nija Hamsters". That was about 15 years ago (at a guess). I've never
| seen it since, and no no-one will believe the book existed. Has anyone
| else seen it?

I can remember one of the 'Grattan' type catalogues having a minicraft type
drill described as "ideal for craftwork, hobbies, dentistry..." which I
always found amusing.

Owain

In message , Paul Mc Cann
writes
On Fri, 10 Oct 2003 23:41:15 +0100, Dave Plowman
wrote:

In article ,
Wanderer wrote:
But the danger of following an idiot's guide is that they may not
realise that regardless of said idiot's guide if they actually get the
cables in the wrong terminals it could have lethal consequences.

Are you really sure there are many who don't realise that some wires are
live while others aren't? Most people with no technical knowledge know
what an earth is.

I have a brother-in-law, with an honours degree in physics, who once
wired the live wire to the earth terminal in a 3 pin plug.

Are you sure he didn't have a PhD
--
geoff

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 18:02:24 +0100, PoP
wrote:

On Sat, 11 Oct 2003 09:44:18 +0100, Andy Hall
wrote:
snip
Coming back on-topic, I think the general tradesman who needs to do
the occasional electrical work might tend to cut less corners than a
sparky who is doing this day-in, day-out.

I am not sure I agree with the former. The other day, a tradesman who
was connecting up a new wall light as part of a larger job came to me
and said he was puzzled because it did not work when he put the fuse
back in - and there was mains to the fitting ok. He then demonstrated
to me that he had 240v to both pins of the bayonet socket!
It was clear to ME that I would not expect the bulb to light
up in those circumstances although it took ME a few minutes to work
out what had been done - the power supply had been taken from the
switched live between two switches to the main room light!
A 'proper' sparky was then called in to rewire the light.

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message ...

Did you ever find out just why he did this? Perhaps he's colour
blind and was using old flex where the red and green were easily
confused.

Or maybe he was German? (Prior to the grn/ylw harmonisation Germany used
red as the earth colour.)

--
Andy

On Sun, 12 Oct 2003 20:50:26 +0100, Brian S Gray
wrote:

I am not sure I agree with the former. The other day, a tradesman who
was connecting up a new wall light as part of a larger job came to me
and said he was puzzled because it did not work when he put the fuse
back in - and there was mains to the fitting ok.

Have to agree with you there that the tradesman was not competent to
be doing the job.

But by the same token, being a qualified and time-served sparky would
not automatically make someone competent either. The likelihood is
that they would be, but there are bad apples in every barrel.

PoP

"Martin Angove" wrote
| Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
| local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also included
| such gems as "crochet your own suspension bridge" and "breed your own
| Nija Hamsters". That was about 15 years ago (at a guess). I've never
| seen it since, and no no-one will believe the book existed. Has anyone
| else seen it?


I was actually given the sequal "Advanced Do it Yourself Brain
Surgery" for Christmas one year. This one included techniques such as
complete brain transplants (poke all nerves back into the spinal
column with and a knitting needle and always be aware that brains can
easily confused with cauliflowers).

I hope this helps

Cheers

Mark Spice

"Martin Angove" wrote
| Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
| local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also included
| such gems as "crochet your own suspension bridge" and "breed your own
| Nija Hamsters". That was about 15 years ago (at a guess). I've never
| seen it since, and no no-one will believe the book existed. Has anyone
| else seen it?


I was actually given the sequal "Advanced Do it Yourself Brain
Surgery" for Christmas one year. This one included techniques such as
complete brain transplants (poke all nerves back into the spinal
column with and a knitting needle and always be aware that brains can
easily confused with cauliflowers).

I hope this helps

Cheers

Mark Spice

"Martin Angove" wrote
| Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
| local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also included
| such gems as "crochet your own suspension bridge" and "breed your own
| Nija Hamsters". That was about 15 years ago (at a guess). I've never
| seen it since, and no no-one will believe the book existed. Has anyone
| else seen it?


I was actually given the sequal "Advanced Do it Yourself Brain
Surgery" for Christmas one year. This one included techniques such as
complete brain transplants (poke all nerves back into the spinal
column with and a knitting needle and always be aware that brains can
easily confused with cauliflowers).

I hope this helps

Cheers

Mark Spice

In article ,
Andy Wade wrote:
Or maybe he was German? (Prior to the grn/ylw harmonisation Germany used
red as the earth colour.)

Of course, all harmonisation within Europe *is a bad thing* ;-)

--
*Why isn't there a special name for the back of your knee?

Dave Plowman London SW 12
RIP Acorn

"Mark Spice" wrote
| I was actually given the sequal "Advanced Do it Yourself Brain
| Surgery" for Christmas one year. This one included techniques such as
| complete brain transplants (poke all nerves back into the spinal
| column with and a knitting needle and always be aware that brains can
| easily confused with cauliflowers).

Some people's can be, certainly.

Owain

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Mark Spice" wrote
| I was actually given the sequal "Advanced Do it Yourself Brain
| Surgery" for Christmas one year. This one included techniques such as
| complete brain transplants (poke all nerves back into the spinal
| column with and a knitting needle and always be aware that brains can
| easily confused with cauliflowers).

Some people's can be, certainly.

Owain



This is what happens when you post from work (another efficient day in the
Civil Service) via an old Google account. Sorry for the cock-up.

Cheers

Mark Spice

On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 00:41:54 +0100, "Andy Wade"
wrote:

"Dave Plowman" wrote in message ...

Did you ever find out just why he did this? Perhaps he's colour
blind and was using old flex where the red and green were easily
confused.

Or maybe he was German? (Prior to the grn/ylw harmonisation Germany used
red as the earth colour.)

No not German, just incompetent.

Paul Mc Cann

This is what happens when you post from work (another efficient day in
the Civil Service) via an old Google account. Sorry for the cock-up.

I thought you were just using the Bellman technique ;-)

mike r

"Owain" wrote in message ...
"Martin Angove" wrote
| Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
| local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also included


One form of DIY brain surgery is called trepanning, or trephining, and
was used as a treatment for severe intractable depression, long long
ago. Apparently it was quite successful. However, due to the delicate
nature of things, I think I would avoid power tools on such a job.


Regards, NT

"N. Thornton" wrote in message
om...
"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Martin Angove" wrote
| Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
| local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also
included


One form of DIY brain surgery is called trepanning, or trephining, and
was used as a treatment for severe intractable depression, long long
ago. Apparently it was quite successful. However, due to the delicate
nature of things, I think I would avoid power tools on such a job.


Regards, NT



I once read a book called "A geological survey of the brain" which showed a
picture of a surgeon drilling the skull to relieve pressure. The thought of
the patient still being awake while this was happening, really put me off
wanting to become a doctor.

I wonder how Id've got on being called BigWallop in the medical profession.

:-))


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In article ,
(N. Thornton) wrote:

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Martin Angove" wrote
| Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
| local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also included


One form of DIY brain surgery is called trepanning, or trephining, and
was used as a treatment for severe intractable depression, long long
ago. Apparently it was quite successful. However, due to the delicate
nature of things, I think I would avoid power tools on such a job.

We have very ancient skulls, prehistoric skulls, with trepanning holes
in them that show healing (so the patient survived). We have ancient
Egyptian skulls where the top of the skull was removed, something done
(probably relieving pressure, dealing with bleeding), put back and the
wound healed.

BTW this can be done while the patient is awake, under local anaesthetic.

Peter

--
Peter Ashby
School of Life Sciences, University of Dundee, Scotland
To assume that I speak for the University of Dundee is to be deluded.
Reverse the Spam and remove to email me.

"Peter Ashby" wrote in message
news
In article ,
(N. Thornton) wrote:

"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Martin Angove" wrote
| Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
| local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also
included


One form of DIY brain surgery is called trepanning, or trephining, and
was used as a treatment for severe intractable depression, long long
ago. Apparently it was quite successful. However, due to the delicate
nature of things, I think I would avoid power tools on such a job.

We have very ancient skulls, prehistoric skulls, with trepanning holes
in them that show healing (so the patient survived). We have ancient
Egyptian skulls where the top of the skull was removed, something done
(probably relieving pressure, dealing with bleeding), put back and the
wound healed.

BTW this can be done while the patient is awake, under local anaesthetic.

Peter


tourist info on
Anyone who wants to see some evidence of this should go to the crypt of St
Leonard's Church in Hythe, Kent. In here you will find a huge pile of
skulls and femurs dating from pre-Norman times. Nobody seems to know why
they are there but you will see some that have been trepanned (and
survived!), some skulls form midgets and other oddities. Well worth a visit
if you are in the area.
/tourist info off

Cheers

Mark Spice

wrote:

Paul Mc Cann wrote:

Or maybe he was German? (Prior to the grn/ylw harmonisation Germany used
red as the earth colour.)


No not German, just incompetent.

Paul Mc Cann

The germans have nothing on the italians and russians.....both are
lethal when it comes to wiring plugs, as I discovered PAT testing at
work, its a uni and the worst offeneders are either studying for phds,
have phds or have prof status! Though the way the labs are wired at home
probably doesn't help.

A polish guy who in other respects was a competant chippy I caught
having wired a _large_ skill saw directly into the _back_ of a 13A
double sockets.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

Peter Ashby wrote in message ...
In article ,
(N. Thornton) wrote:
"Owain" wrote in message
...
"Martin Angove" wrote

| Sorry to butt-in completely OT, but I once borrowed a book from the
| local library called "Do It Yourself Brain Surgery" which also included


One form of DIY brain surgery is called trepanning, or trephining, and
was used as a treatment for severe intractable depression, long long
ago. Apparently it was quite successful. However, due to the delicate
nature of things, I think I would avoid power tools on such a job.


We have very ancient skulls, prehistoric skulls, with trepanning holes
in them that show healing (so the patient survived). We have ancient
Egyptian skulls where the top of the skull was removed, something done
(probably relieving pressure, dealing with bleeding), put back and the
wound healed.

BTW this can be done while the patient is awake, under local anaesthetic.


Do you know what anaesthetic technology there was back then?
Presumably the technique of getting so drunk the person passed into
oblivion was well known, and I would think was workable. Were there
any better methods?

If head cuts healed, presumably they must have used antiseptics too? I
cant imagine the uv in sunlight being sufficient. Perhaps just lots of
boiled water??


Regards, NT

"BigWallop" wrote in
:

I wonder how Id've got on being called BigWallop in the medical
profession.

:-))

I think you'd have been a professor of reverse phrenology; ie you analyse
the patient and then apply the appropriate bermps to the head.

Try it on the dipswitch dipstick.

mike r