The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows





--
geoff

"geoff" wrote in message
...

The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

If you want to sell, and the buyer's solicitor is on the ball, yes

tim

tim..... wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message
...
The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

If you want to sell, and the buyer's solicitor is on the ball, yes

Not even convinced that is really a problem. Yes they will ask (its on
the standard forms), but if you tick the "none" or "lost" boxes I can't
see it causing major issues with most buyers.

--
Cheers,

John.

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geoff wrote:
The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

No - but you will then need the relevant paperwork from the local council
Building Control Office to say that the installation is up to standard - and
at a fair old cost.

Tanner-'op

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:36:38 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

tim..... wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message
...
The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

If you want to sell, and the buyer's solicitor is on the ball, yes

Not even convinced that is really a problem. Yes they will ask (its on
the standard forms), but if you tick the "none" or "lost" boxes I can't
see it causing major issues with most buyers.

At worst it will be a bargaining point for a price reduction. Which is
probably more significant at the moment that it would be at more bullish
times.


--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html

In message , Tanner-'op
writes
geoff wrote:
The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

No - but you will then need the relevant paperwork from the local council
Building Control Office to say that the installation is up to standard - and
at a fair old cost.

So what happens if you don't

i.e. just go ahead and don't notify them?

--
geoff

tim..... coughed up some electrons that declared:


"geoff" wrote in message
...

The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

If you want to sell, and the buyer's solicitor is on the ball, yes

tim

Sorry for being a pedant, but we should be clear...

What you actually need is a bit of paper showing compliance to Building
Regs, including (and fairly prominantly in for windows *and* external
doors) Part L compliance.

A FENSA operative can self certify akin to NICEIC/NAPIT/etc for Part P.

The other route is a BNA or Full Plans submission to the LABC, same as any
other notifiable building works.

Regarding the solicitors: Part L, specifically heating systems and windows
are mentioned explicitly on either Law Society form TA11 or TA12, I forget
which. Both forms are commonly used as the basis of a vendor questionnaire
by the potential buyer.

You don't of course *have* to complete the forms, but that may affect the
sale. The easy way out if to plead ignorance and offer to buy a 50-100 quid
indemnity policy for the buyer.

All based on recent experience. My sale didn't go through, but it wasn't the
paperwork that stopped it, in fact no-one batted an eyelid regarding any
building control issues once I'd offered the indemnity policy. It fell
through because the buyers were a pair of unrealistic serial-gazundering
toerags, who are now totally blacklisted by the local estate agent. But
that's another story. -o

Cheers

Tim

Ed Sirett coughed up some electrons that declared:


At worst it will be a bargaining point for a price reduction. Which is
probably more significant at the moment that it would be at more bullish
times.



Ironically more specific attention is paid to windows and electrics than a
whole host of other classes of building works which could have far more
serious implications if they go wrong. AFAICR I'm not sure if gas work is
even mentioned on the standard legal questionnaire, other than the bits
concerning Part L. Correct me if I'm wrong...

Cheers

Tim

geoff wrote:
In message , Tanner-'op
writes
geoff wrote:
The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

No - but you will then need the relevant paperwork from the local council
Building Control Office to say that the installation is up to standard
- and
at a fair old cost.

So what happens if you don't

i.e. just go ahead and don't notify them?

Nothing...

The windows you will be installing in most cases will comply with the
building regs anyway, so there is nothing that can happen. (assuming no
other complications like listed buildings and conservation areas etc).

--
Cheers,

John.

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geoff wrote:
In message , Tanner-'op
writes
geoff wrote:
The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

No - but you will then need the relevant paperwork from the local
council Building Control Office to say that the installation is up
to standard - and at a fair old cost.

So what happens if you don't

If there is no certificate from the BCO, then there will be problems when
selling the property.

i.e. just go ahead and don't notify them?


Not a sensible idea for the reason already stated - and, if a neighbour
decides to report that fact to the the BCO, then it is possible that you may
be forced to reinstate the works as original, or end up before the beak and
paying a rather substantial fine.

I had a door and window fitted by a local installer (FENSA registered)
eighteen months ago and the FENSA certifcate dropped onto my doormat two
weeks later - and the (small) fee for it was included in the price for
supply and fit - that certificate was then simply stored with my house
deeds.

Tanner-'op

In article ,
Tim S writes:

Ironically more specific attention is paid to windows and electrics than a
whole host of other classes of building works which could have far more
serious implications if they go wrong. AFAICR I'm not sure if gas work is
even mentioned on the standard legal questionnaire, other than the bits
concerning Part L. Correct me if I'm wrong...

As I said in another thread, two colleagues who moved recently
were strongly advised by their solicitors not to answer any such
questions, even where favourable answers could have been provided.
Don't know how universal that is though.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

Tanner-'op wrote:

geoff wrote:

In message , Tanner-'op
writes

geoff wrote:

The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

No - but you will then need the relevant paperwork from the local
council Building Control Office to say that the installation is up
to standard - and at a fair old cost.


So what happens if you don't


If there is no certificate from the BCO, then there will be problems when
selling the property.


i.e. just go ahead and don't notify them?



Not a sensible idea for the reason already stated - and, if a neighbour
decides to report that fact to the the BCO, then it is possible that you may
be forced to reinstate the works as original, or end up before the beak and
paying a rather substantial fine.

Isn't it time we stopped the tail from wagging the dog?

Dave

"Tanner-'op" wrote:

geoff wrote:
In message , Tanner-'op
writes
geoff wrote:
Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

No - but you will then need the relevant paperwork from the local
council Building Control Office to say that the installation is up
to standard - and at a fair old cost.

So what happens if you don't

If there is no certificate from the BCO, then there will be problems when
selling the property.

Only a very slight chance of a problem.
If someone wants to buy a house, you really think the lack of a
certificate for windows will stop them buying it?
HIP packs are a legal requirement, yet the Inspector who did my g/f's
house would not even look in the loft, as there wasnt 'safe' access to
it, so the loft space got the minimum insulation rating, when in fact
there is an awful lot of insulation in there.
BCO/Councils are completely uninterested in windows on 'normal' housing
stock.

i.e. just go ahead and don't notify them?

Not a sensible idea for the reason already stated - and, if a neighbour
decides to report that fact to the the BCO, then it is possible that you may
be forced to reinstate the works as original, or end up before the beak and
paying a rather substantial fine.

Total rubbish.
If you know this, then please post a link to a relevant document showing
such action being taken against a 'criminal' who has fitted
non-certified windows. (disregarding any listed buildings).

Alan.

--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.

On 15 Aug, 23:36, Dave wrote:

Isn't it time we stopped the tail from wagging the dog?

Absolutely. It's a load of old rubbish. If a buyer wants your house,
is he going to refuse to buy it because you don't have a piuece of
paper for a window? I suppose some buyers are stupid enough to listen
to crap from the legal executive doing their conveyancing, but I can't
see most caring. JFDI.

Regards
Richard

Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Tim S writes:
Ironically more specific attention is paid to windows and electrics than a
whole host of other classes of building works which could have far more
serious implications if they go wrong. AFAICR I'm not sure if gas work is
even mentioned on the standard legal questionnaire, other than the bits
concerning Part L. Correct me if I'm wrong...

As I said in another thread, two colleagues who moved recently
were strongly advised by their solicitors not to answer any such
questions, even where favourable answers could have been provided.
Don't know how universal that is though.

Ours gave the advice that if you have any doubt about a question, then
answer "I don't know"...

I completed the sale on our previous place recently, and the only area
paperwork was missing was for the boiler installation. The buyers
solicitors queried it, and I just responded saying that I had done the
installation myself and hence no CORGI cert was available (or required),
pointed them at the relevant web sites, and said I believed that the
installation was in accordance with the building regs requirements as
well (glossing over the lack of a completion cert!). Ended it with a
note that it was now beyond the time the LA could take any enforcement
action anyway. Never heard any more about it.

--
Cheers,

John.

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| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

Tanner-'op wrote:
geoff wrote:
In message , Tanner-'op
writes
geoff wrote:
The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows
No - but you will then need the relevant paperwork from the local
council Building Control Office to say that the installation is up
to standard - and at a fair old cost.

So what happens if you don't

If there is no certificate from the BCO, then there will be problems when
selling the property.

i.e. just go ahead and don't notify them?


Not a sensible idea for the reason already stated - and, if a neighbour
decides to report that fact to the the BCO, then it is possible that you may
be forced to reinstate the works as original, or end up before the beak and
paying a rather substantial fine.

The only way this could happen is if you installed windows that were not
in compliance with the regulations. The LA would not be able to take
enforcement action to "correct" work that is already correct.

As for fines etc, again that would require a LA to spend their precious
budget prosecuting a case that has no merit for anyone involved. They
tend to reserve these actions for the serial and persistent offenders
who are endangering the public by their actions.

I had a door and window fitted by a local installer (FENSA registered)
eighteen months ago and the FENSA certifcate dropped onto my doormat two
weeks later - and the (small) fee for it was included in the price for
supply and fit - that certificate was then simply stored with my house
deeds.

Hope it gave you a nice warm feeling ;-)


--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

All based on recent experience. My sale didn't go through, but it wasn't the
paperwork that stopped it, in fact no-one batted an eyelid regarding any
building control issues once I'd offered the indemnity policy. It fell
through because the buyers were a pair of unrealistic serial-gazundering
toerags, who are now totally blacklisted by the local estate agent. But
that's another story. -o

Cheers


Yes .....

Doesn't house, and for that matter car selling, bring out the very worst
in the great British public;!......

--
Tony Sayer

I had a door and window fitted by a local installer (FENSA registered)
eighteen months ago and the FENSA certifcate dropped onto my doormat two
weeks later - and the (small) fee for it was included in the price for
supply and fit - that certificate was then simply stored with my house
deeds.

Tanner-'op





Wasn't there a "works before FENSA" date exemption somewhere around 2004
IIRC bit like part pee?..
--
Tony Sayer

geraldthehamster wrote:
On 15 Aug, 23:36, Dave wrote:

Isn't it time we stopped the tail from wagging the dog?

Absolutely. It's a load of old rubbish. If a buyer wants your house,
is he going to refuse to buy it because you don't have a piuece of
paper for a window? I suppose some buyers are stupid enough to listen
to crap from the legal executive doing their conveyancing, but I can't
see most caring. JFDI.

Regards
Richard

I am keeping my FENSA cert safe.

Lack of evidence of building reg consent etc. etc may not put off buyers
but their conveyancers may also be working for their mortgage supplier
who may be a great deal more picky.
Conveyancers seem to be looking at more and more ways to cover their
backs and/or get extra commission from selling insurance/warranties.

Chancery searches and indemnities.

Cases where LA planning and building regs are all OK but the original
developer of the site required their permission for any changes. I had
to pay for one indemnity and one vendor who sold to me had to get
retrospective permission from that estate's original developer.

Sub leases which purport to give more benefits than the head lease.

It seems that every time I move some bright conveyancer picks up
something nobody has asked for in the previous sales.

HIP packs are a legal requirement, yet the Inspector who did my g/f's
house would not even look in the loft, as there wasnt 'safe' access to
it

That about sums it up. Too much to ask that he might have a ladder I
suppose

In article ,
tony sayer writes:
Wasn't there a "works before FENSA" date exemption somewhere around 2004

April 2002, which is exactly why I replaced my windows in February 2002
(and put central heating in). However, very few window installers were
signed up until a long time after that date anyway. I spoke to mine
probably some 6 months later, and he was just starting to think about
it.

I did however make my systems all conform to Part L except for the K
glass, which is a complete waste of money. IIRC, the payback for K
glass was something like 50 years, and that didn't take into account the
extra lighting needed because of the slightly darker glass. That money
went towards a condensing boiler and extra insulation, which was a very
much more effective use of it.

--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]

In message , John Rumm
writes
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Tim S writes:
Ironically more specific attention is paid to windows and electrics than a
whole host of other classes of building works which could have far more
serious implications if they go wrong. AFAICR I'm not sure if gas work is
even mentioned on the standard legal questionnaire, other than the bits
concerning Part L. Correct me if I'm wrong...
As I said in another thread, two colleagues who moved recently
were strongly advised by their solicitors not to answer any such
questions, even where favourable answers could have been provided.
Don't know how universal that is though.

Ours gave the advice that if you have any doubt about a question, then
answer "I don't know"...

I completed the sale on our previous place recently, and the only area
paperwork was missing was for the boiler installation. The buyers
solicitors queried it, and I just responded saying that I had done the
installation myself and hence no CORGI cert was available (or
required), pointed them at the relevant web sites, and said I believed
that the installation was in accordance with the building regs
requirements as well (glossing over the lack of a completion cert!).
Ended it with a note that it was now beyond the time the LA could take
any enforcement action anyway. Never heard any more about it.

So, after say, 5 years, it becomes beyond their remit ?

--
geoff

On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:13:03 +0100, stuart noble wrote:

HIP packs are a legal requirement, yet the Inspector who did my g/f's
house would not even look in the loft, as there wasnt 'safe' access to
it

That about sums it up. Too much to ask that he might have a ladder I
suppose

elfin safety. You have to be trained to use a ladder and have done the
"Working at heights" course if more than 6' above the ground. You will
notice that sky dishes are now installed on the sides of houses no more
than 8 to 10' from the ground...

--
Cheers
Dave.

geoff wrote:
In message , John Rumm
writes
Andrew Gabriel wrote:
In article ,
Tim S writes:
Ironically more specific attention is paid to windows and electrics
than a
whole host of other classes of building works which could have far more
serious implications if they go wrong. AFAICR I'm not sure if gas
work is
even mentioned on the standard legal questionnaire, other than the bits
concerning Part L. Correct me if I'm wrong...
As I said in another thread, two colleagues who moved recently
were strongly advised by their solicitors not to answer any such
questions, even where favourable answers could have been provided.
Don't know how universal that is though.

Ours gave the advice that if you have any doubt about a question, then
answer "I don't know"...

I completed the sale on our previous place recently, and the only area
paperwork was missing was for the boiler installation. The buyers
solicitors queried it, and I just responded saying that I had done the
installation myself and hence no CORGI cert was available (or
required), pointed them at the relevant web sites, and said I believed
that the installation was in accordance with the building regs
requirements as well (glossing over the lack of a completion cert!).
Ended it with a note that it was now beyond the time the LA could take
any enforcement action anyway. Never heard any more about it.

So, after say, 5 years, it becomes beyond their remit ?

Much sooner than that IIRC. Search for Hugo's recent post in the
"Building Regulations" thread (towards the end of last month). At one
point he said:

"The LA can bring an action in the Magistrates' Court for a fine within
6 months of the date of the offence, except for breaches of the Energy
Efficiency requirements, where the time limit is longer (can't
remember how long & ICBA to look it up).

The LA can serve a notice (a 'Section 36') requiring the owner to
rectify a contravention up to 12 months after its occurrence (I think
this has also been extended for Energy Efficiency requirements- see
above).

Action can be taken on existing buildings containing flats of three or
more storeys to ensure there are adequate fire precautions, and there
are the dangerous buildings sections if you really cock it up (like
the landlord who decided that he could get a couple of extra flats in
his house by digging down 2m in one go).

In practice, as someone else has pointed out, getting the Council's
solicitors to do anything within the time allowed is so tortuous and
time-consuming that my LA only takes any formal action against the
most serious and/or serial transgressors. The main sanction for
everyone else is the withholding of a Completion Certificate."

--
Cheers,

John.

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\================================================= ================/

In article ,
Tanner-'op wrote:
geoff wrote:
The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

No - but you will then need the relevant paperwork from the local
council Building Control Office to say that the installation is up to
standard - and at a fair old cost.

And what happens if you have neither? Hung drawn and quartered or simple
beheading?

--
*Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool*

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

In article ,
Ed Sirett wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:36:38 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

tim..... wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message
...
The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows

If you want to sell, and the buyer's solicitor is on the ball, yes

Not even convinced that is really a problem. Yes they will ask (its on
the standard forms), but if you tick the "none" or "lost" boxes I can't
see it causing major issues with most buyers.

At worst it will be a bargaining point for a price reduction. Which is
probably more significant at the moment that it would be at more bullish
times.

Since the FENSA thing is quite recent - how would a buyer know when the
windows were installed?

--
*Why don't you ever see the headline "Psychic Wins Lottery"?

Dave Plowman London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article ,
Ed Sirett wrote:
On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 20:36:38 +0100, John Rumm wrote:

tim..... wrote:
"geoff" wrote in message
...
The FENSA sites seem to be written a bit like CORGI

Do you really need FENSA when installing replacement windows
If you want to sell, and the buyer's solicitor is on the ball, yes
Not even convinced that is really a problem. Yes they will ask (its on
the standard forms), but if you tick the "none" or "lost" boxes I can't
see it causing major issues with most buyers.

At worst it will be a bargaining point for a price reduction. Which is
probably more significant at the moment that it would be at more bullish
times.

Since the FENSA thing is quite recent - how would a buyer know when the
windows were installed?

Cos the seller is supposed to tell em (and there is a date stamp on many
sealed units!)

--
Cheers,

John.

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|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\================================================= ================/

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:43:00 +0100 A.Lee wrote :
HIP packs are a legal requirement, yet the Inspector who did my
g/f's house would not even look in the loft, as there wasnt 'safe'
access to it, so the loft space got the minimum insulation rating,
when in fact there is an awful lot of insulation in there.

Mine did: I have done a lot of work and wanted to make sure that I got
the credit. EA said it was one of the first Cs he seen. Hasn't helped
so far: just one expression of interest who wants to knock the asked
£300K down to £250K (for obvious reasons).

--
Tony Bryer SDA UK 'Software to build on' http://www.sda.co.uk

John Rumm coughed up some electrons that declared:


Cos the seller is supposed to tell em (and there is a date stamp on many
sealed units!)


And my numpty buyer's solicitor asked the question, so obviously their
surveyor wasn't paying much attention to the clearly marked dates on the 4
new windows!

"Tim S" wrote in message
...
John Rumm coughed up some electrons that declared:


Cos the seller is supposed to tell em (and there is a date stamp on many
sealed units!)


And my numpty buyer's solicitor asked the question, so obviously their
surveyor wasn't paying much attention to the clearly marked dates on the 4
new windows!

Your numpty solicitor just sends out a standard list of questions.,

This costs him (you) less than his going through them to work out which ones
he needs to ask

tim

In article et, Dave
Liquorice scribeth thus
On Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:13:03 +0100, stuart noble wrote:

HIP packs are a legal requirement, yet the Inspector who did my g/f's
house would not even look in the loft, as there wasnt 'safe' access to
it

That about sums it up. Too much to ask that he might have a ladder I
suppose

elfin safety. You have to be trained to use a ladder and have done the
"Working at heights" course if more than 6' above the ground. You will
notice that sky dishes are now installed on the sides of houses no more
than 8 to 10' from the ground...


And quite adequate they are there too!. Ours are up a corner of the
garden on the ground and painted greenish brown and you wouldn't know we
had two...
--
Tony Sayer